Does Adolin need Maya's Shardplate to revive her?

[pixiehawk]

I'm guessing with the chaos, and thousands of years in between when she and the plate was abandoned that the set isn't necessarily a matched set. The plate is formed when the bound progresses far enough. It would have Connection to her and her original bearer. If Adolin's plate isn't hers that Connection isn't there. If it was there, would it help her revive? 

I'm re-reading WoR, and Dalinar is in Purlake. He mentioned the Knights Plate could be Adolins. That made me wonder if the sword was Maya. It wasn't described besides "enormous" so no way of knowing. 

I don't know if this has been asked before. I did a search, but could possibly have missed something. 

[Skryter he/him]

I don't see why it would be necessary, considering all the evidence points to the plate being formed from lesser spren.

[Calderis he/him]

@pixiehawk considering how little we know about the mechanics of what it takes to revive Maya completely, I can't rule it out, but I personally don't believe so.

There are multiple theories for what makes plate, but all of them place it separate from the Nahel Spren itself. 

As to the Purelake vision, the color of the armor, and the way she moved through the water implying Abrasion use mean she was a Dustbringer, and we know that Maya is a Cultivationspren. So if that is Adolin's plate, he definitely doesn't have a matched set. 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Calderis

[BitBitio he/him]

Just going to say this, but this theory sounds like something Brandon would RAFO or give a similar answer too. That could easily be something he will reveal later on. He might even say that you are theorizing in the right direction.

So, welcome to the Shard, and nice catch!

@pixiehawk

[pixiehawk]

I know Brandon said it would be very difficult to revive her. I've seen some say it's because he'd need to do the Oaths without the Sprens help. There is that, and I think he's doing as well as he can. But I was wondering if there was more than just his growth. If the Plate is part of the connection it would definitely ramp up the difficulty. 

[Arondell]

I always had the impression based on various comments by Mr. Sanderson that part of the reason for the difficulty was the sheer level of trauma done to the spren when the bonds were broken.  So if the bond was actually a cybernetic plug when the bond was broken it is as if the knight ripped the plug out of the sprens head.  Taking with it the components that enabled a radiant bond in the first place along with  a big chunk of the sprens mind.  All that needs to be fixed before a radiant bond can even start to form.  So yeah. Really hard.

That is my take on it at least.

[Nohadon he/him]

11 hours ago, Arondell said:

Taking with it the components that enabled a radiant bond in the first place along with  a big chunk of the sprens mind.  All that needs to be fixed before a radiant bond can even start to form.  So yeah. Really hard.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Syl die in WoR and was revived? I get it's a different story as it's a different person trying to revive the same spren in Adolin's case, where Kaladin was actually bonded, but all Kaladin needed to do is say the next oath to revive her, no extra oomph required to fix her first. Also, she was fine after, not having as much trauma as someone who literally died would have.

[Weltall]

2 hours ago, Nohadon said:

I get it's a different story as it's a different person trying to revive the same spren in Adolin's case, where Kaladin was actually bonded, but all Kaladin needed to do is say the next oath to revive her, no extra oomph required to fix her first. 

Brandon explicitly singled out the case of the original Radiant as being easier than someone else trying to revive a deadeye. A Radiant and their Spren's souls are merging so whatever damage exists has a natural healing route. Also, Syl wasn't bonded as deeply since she wasn't yet able to manifest as a blade when Kaladin 'killed' her so she might have been less affected; contrast the trauma she experienced when her first Radiant died before the Recreance.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I don't believe Maya needs her Shardplate found in order for her to revive. Blade comes before Plate in the progression cycle after all. But assuming Maya gets revived at some point, what Ideal was her previous Radiant on when je severed his Oaths? If he/she was only on the 3rd Ideal then Maya may have never even had a Plate accompaniment at all. If Maya was bonded to someone who swore the 4th and/or 5th Ideal and that Plate survived through the millennia then if Maya awakens I expect that Plate to disappear until Adolin progresses enough to summon it back to the Physical Realm.

[goody153]

I don't think so.

I always thought that shardplate is a complementary thing to a Radiant not something really necessary. Radiants who use plates from the broken Radiants aren't even affected by it or that their spren complains about it.

Also Syl is only as dead as her Kaladin's oaths(which is why reviving a deadblade spren is a different case cause the owner of the blade is long gone) or so long as Kaladin is alive. She can be brought back

Edited September 17, 2018 by goody153

[Calderis he/him]

It's Connection.

The Spren is dead from the bond being ripped out of them. Their Radiant already had the proper Connection because of the bond, so restoring their oaths restores the Spren... 

But how do you forge a bond, a Connection, with an entity whose mind has been rendered non-functional? That's what makes it so much harder. 

Maya is already showing improvement. She moved to protect Adolin of her own volition in Shadesmar. She's spoken to Adolin, to give her name, and given impressions of feeling. Her mind is reawakening. 

The Connection has already been forged. What was taken from her is returning. Adolin needs to do more, and I think doing that without a fully living and capable spren to help guide his steps is going to make that harder than just progressing through the Oaths would normally be... But the hardest part, forging a Connection with the deadeye to begin with, is already done. 

[pixiehawk]

The Shardplate is Shardplate (if there is Shardplate, BigMickey is right, it might not have been created yet) because of the Connection with Maya and her original Knight. If there is plate it was created, made real, with her as much as the Knight. They are 1 soul in 2 bodies of I understood what I read about it. I can only imagine it would help.

[Quantus he/him]

On 9/17/2018 at 3:59 PM, pixiehawk said:

The Shardplate is Shardplate (if there is Shardplate, BigMickey is right, it might not have been created yet) because of the Connection with Maya and her original Knight. If there is plate it was created, made real, with her as much as the Knight. They are 1 soul in 2 bodies of I understood what I read about it. I can only imagine it would help.

I think this is specifically not the case, in light of the WOB that says the spren cannot fracture themselves into separate forms such as a matched pair of swords or a separate Bow and Arrow. 

[Scion of the Mists]

20 hours ago, Quantus said:

On 9/17/2018 at 3:59 PM, pixiehawk said:

The Shardplate is Shardplate (if there is Shardplate, BigMickey is right, it might not have been created yet) because of the Connection with Maya and her original Knight. If there is plate it was created, made real, with her as much as the Knight. They are 1 soul in 2 bodies of I understood what I read about it. I can only imagine it would help.

I think this is specifically not the case, in light of the WOB that says the spren cannot fracture themselves into separate forms such as a matched pair of swords or a separate Bow and Arrow. 

 

I think that @pixiehawk was referring to this WoB that says that the spren and radiant are "actually melding into one individual" with separate minds.  

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

 

I think that @pixiehawk was referring to this WoB that says that the spren and radiant are "actually melding into one individual" with separate minds.  

Ah, Fair enough, I thought they were referring to the blade and plate being one soul with 2 separate physical forms.

[StanLemon]

I think Adolin hasn't been sufficiently "broken" first either. One thing we know is that most if not all Radiants have had to go through a sufficient trauma of some kind in order to let them properly Bond with their Spren. Much the same way as Allomancers need to Snap. Until that happens, I don't think he will be able to create the Bonds necessary to revive Maya.

[Calderis he/him]

38 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I think Adolin hasn't been sufficiently "broken" first either. One thing we know is that most if not all Radiants have had to go through a sufficient trauma of some kind in order to let them properly Bond with their Spren. Much the same way as Allomancers need to Snap. Until that happens, I don't think he will be able to create the Bonds necessary to revive Maya.

He's been through plenty, and it is not related to trauma. 

He lost his mother as a teenager, thousands of men many who were friends, at the tower, dealt with his father as an emotionally abusive alcoholic... 

It's the same mechanism as snapping in Mistborn and that can be achieved through extreme joy. 

Not everyone has to go through the crem that Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan have. 

[Quantus he/him]

57 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I think Adolin hasn't been sufficiently "broken" first either. One thing we know is that most if not all Radiants have had to go through a sufficient trauma of some kind in order to let them properly Bond with their Spren. Much the same way as Allomancers need to Snap. Until that happens, I don't think he will be able to create the Bonds necessary to revive Maya.

I tend to agree with @Calderis on this one, he may outwardly less textbook damaged than the Depressed Kaladin or Shallan's Dissociative identity disorder, but that's not to say he's never experienced trauma. His father killed his mother, and he basically basically grew up with those and other horrible whisperes about his father and family. 

On top of that, Brandon has said in several contexts that such things are going to be wildly subjective, to the point where he doesnt want to even use the phrase "well-adjusted" anymore (he said you could look to the deaf community to see people challenging outsiders definitions of disease vs just who you are.  I mean, why are we all saying Renarin is "broken' but his brother isnt; Renarin is arguably just an introvert that's on the spectrum, and is no more "broken" than any other similar socially awkward teenager.  All his worst Trauma that we know of came after he got his powers, and started hearing screaming objects and seeing the future. 

For what it's worth, Brandon has also said as recently as this summer that he has not actually confirmed whether the whoel Broken requirement is factual or just an in-world tradition, a pattern the KR noticed in the past.

 

WOB's spoilered for length

 

Spoiler

 

 

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Brandon Sanderson

All right. So...things do get confusing whenever I'm trying to circumlocute spoilers. I could have smacked myself for forgetting to mention "no spoilers" before the Q&A. I keep forgetting that there are many readers who are not as sensitive to these things as I am. (Though one woman did gasp in the row behind that guy asking the question--as his original one mentioned Sadeas's death, I believe.)

I will say that there are multiple people I'd consider well on the path to being Radiants by the end of Book Three, and several of these would--shall we say--dispute KR traditions from the past, specifically on this subject matter. (What makes someone eligible to become a KR.) So this discussion is relevant for multiple reasons.

I wasn't trying to drop any bombs about Adolin, however, as I remain very solidly in RAFO territory about his future.

Enasor

Thank you for taking the time to clarify this one Mr Sanderson.

This WoB created a massive shock-wave all across the fandom and many readers were taking you had officially confirmed Adolin was "well on his way towards Knighthood" which I was personally convinced was very deeply into the RAFO territory, as it should be.

Perhaps in order to also settle some additional debates, would you say Adolin would challenge what has traditionally made someone eligible to become a KR or is this within RAFO territory too? Readers can never seem to agree on how perfect Adolin actually is. We seem to find rationals for both.

Brandon Sanderson

I hate to use terms like "perfect" or the like. It's even difficult to (when not speaking in world) use some of the terminology the KR have used in the past--as we have to reconcile several things.

How do you decide what is a mental illness and what is simply a person's unique brain chemistry? Usually this comes down to two factors--the person's own feelings on it and the advice of medical professionals. Even language like "Well-adjusted," as I used before, is dangerous territory because it's so subjective. One need look only to the deaf community to find examples of people who challenge an outsider's perspective of what is a disease and what isn't.

So I generally prefer to talk about this through the character's viewpoint, the lens of historical commentary (which is in world, and may not therefore be accurate--but at least offers a perspective,) and the context of the book.

And in that context, I like Adolin being a RAFO. I believe that using the text, there are multiple directions one could go in discussing him.

Footnote: Brandon is referring to this exchange.
source

 

 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Adolin and his sword that wants to kind of wake up a little bit. Most of the Knights Radiant have some sort of break in their mind, mental <a little> problem. Where Adolin appears to be the person in Stormlight that's most comfortable with himself. Is that going to cause a problem, or is maybe the fact that he, at least in his mind, murdered Sadeas, going to help bring that to fruition or give us a way towards something like that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's, first off, say I'm not going to repeat this one because it's super spoilery. So let's try to talk around the spoilers.

In the Stormlight Archive, there is a tradition among the Knights Radiant that certain traumas and/or psychological handicaps are effective in drawing the attention of a spren. I haven't actually said if that is true or if that's [just] a tradition of theirs. But there is a tradition among the Knights Radiant. that they have noticed something consistent.

Does it mean that you have to in order to be a Knight Radiant? Well, there is somebody that I would call extremely psychologically well-adjusted, that by the end of the third book is well on the way to Knighthood.

There is something going on there, they are noticing something true. But it might not be as exclusionary as they think it is.

Footnote: Brandon clarified this question in this exchange.
source

 

 

 

 

 

[Yata he/him]

The brokeness kept returning in this topics.

The only real Spiritual requirement for be a Radiant is having  cracks in your Soul for the Spren to apply to.

There is no need of an extremely or long lasting condition to have those.

We have instances of people having that simply for an hard birth (something they could not even remember) or for be badly beaten a single time

[StanLemon]

Perhaps I should elaborate on "broken" and what I mean by trauma. Let us compare him to the other Radiants who's histories we know about and how their lives affected them versus how his life affected him. They don't need to go through the absolute hell that say Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan went through true but all the Radiants who's history we know about have some form of mental "issues" of some kind. I'm hesitant to use that word but it does convey what I mean. Kaladin has deep depression, Shallan has her whole bag of problems. Dalinar has his deep self loathing he got from killing his wife. But even the ones we know less about have something in their past. The guy Nale kills between parts likely had guilt over accidentally killing someone for instance. I suspect Lift has some type of self loathing as well considering her not wanting to change (though whatever influences Cultivation might have had leave that up in the air for me I admit). Now I suspect Adolin is getting there due to the bit of an inferiority complex he's developed over the course of Oathbringer, and I think that in part along with how well he has cared for Maya is why he was able to summon her in under ten heartbeats.

For how hard Adolin's life is, let us look at that. Yes he lost his mother at a young age but people are often able to handle the death of loved ones better than other and Adolin strikes me as someone who handles it and other stresses quite well. So while he may have grieved for these things I don't think it was enough to cause cracks to form in his soul. 

 

EDIT: I guess the way I see it as I compare Adolin to Kelsier as he's described before he went to the Pits. While they both very much had hardships in life it wasn't something that affected them in enough of a way to "break" them.

Edited September 22, 2018 by StanLemon

[StanLemon]

18 hours ago, Yata said:

The brokeness kept returning in this topics.

The only real Spiritual requirement for be a Radiant is having  cracks in your Soul for the Spren to apply to.

There is no need of an extremely or long lasting condition to have those.

We have instances of people having that simply for an hard birth (something they could not even remember) or for be badly beaten a single time

I did not say it needed to be long lasting or even extreme. It was others who inferred that I meant the same kind of things that happened to Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin as they are our major viewpoints. I only used Snapping as an example to show that trauma is seemingly necessary for cracks to form. 

Lastly, Vin is the only person we know for sure Snapped at birth and she can hardly be considered a standard example as she was a necessary component in Preservation's plan.

[Calderis he/him]

Adolin has had the inferiority thing about everything save his dueling ability since the beginning. He cracked and killed Sadeas, and buried himself in work to avoid even thinking about it. 

He puts forward a strong face constantly, but it's a lie, and has been from the start. 

He'd make a good lightweaver because he deals with his problems the same way Shallan does. By avoiding thinking about them.

[StanLemon]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Adolin has had the inferiority thing about everything save his dueling ability since the beginning. He cracked and killed Sadeas, and buried himself in work to avoid even thinking about it. 

He puts forward a strong face constantly, but it's a lie, and has been from the start. 

He'd make a good lightweaver because he deals with his problems the same way Shallan does. By avoiding thinking about them.

I disagree on the on the Lightweaver thing quite a bit. He doesn't lie to himself and he is aware of his faults. Additionally while he may not say the truth right away he is ultimately an honest and earnest person. I think the fact that Maya is a Cultivation is perfect for him as he seems to be more of an Edgedancer to me. Lift's Oaths have to do with remembering people and that seems like what he does with Maya. He didn't give her a name because he believed she already had one and thought it would be wrong to rename her. 

As far as killing Sadeas to show that he is having issues, the consequences of that and how he feels about are brought up in Oathbringer and it is very clear that disappointing Salina had a much stronger presence on his mind than snapping and killing Sadeas. As I've said, I think the problems he goes through during the events of that book and how caring he is for her have allowed him to start to Connect with her. Her dead nature might be interfering with his ability to bond with her and he could already be able to bond with a spren true, but I still have my doubts about that. Maybe it's somewhere in the middle.

[Calderis he/him]

First, I agree he fits Edgedancer best. I've been a proponent of him reviving his sword since before we got her name in OB. 

Second, when I said he'd make a good lightweaver, I meant it. He is a very honest person, but he lies to himself. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Edgedancers seem like the home Order for Adolin to me too. Other instances of him displaying Edgedancer qualities, remembering to look out for Dalinar's Ryshidium since Dalinar has recently become too busy to ride. He is one of the only people to listen to Renarin when so many people seek to dismiss him due to his lack of fighting prowess. He's graceful on the dueling grounds when he fights.