Champion of...Preservation?

[Quiver he/him]

Theory is perhaps the wrong word, but we don't have a 'nonsense Quiver musings' forum (YET) so this will have to so.

So, we know from Dalinars visions that the Shards are bound by some sort of rules. He suggests that Dalinars try and force Odium into appointing a champion as the best course of action. Recently, I've been wondering about whether or not we've already seen an instance of another Shard appointing a champion.

As the title of the thread may imply, I'm suggesting it's Vin. Vin, unless I'm seriously misremembering WoB/Mistborn, was perfectly placed to act opposing Ruin. Kelsier commented that her allomancy was stronger than his, by a seemingly unnatural gap. She was able to burn from the mists, which I believe was a fairly unique ability. And it all topped itself off with her taking Preservation and opposing Ruin directly.

[Numb]

Vin was indeed Preservations "Champion". He knew that he couldn't kill Ruin himself due to that shard changing his nature so instead he came up with a plan that utilized his precognition to eventually have a new person take up the shard and kill Ruin. I remember reading about why he picked Vin but now I can't find the source. 

 

I don't know if Vin's allomancy was actually stronger than Kelsiers, the reason she could do some things he couldn't was because of the earring she wore. WoB has stated that they both had "100%" allomancy potential so I think the differences might have been more due to talent and application. Have to remember there were a lot of incorrect information about allomancy that Kelsier believed. Vin on the other hand seemed to take inconsistencies in stride and use them to her advantage instead of questioning. Also Vin snapped I think from birth(Could be wrong), so she's most likely been using allomancy most of her life without knowing any "rules". Vin honestly just seemed smarter than any other allomancer to date. She used her powers in smart ways instead of being constrained by rules or perceptions and even figured out the horse shoe trick which no one in 1000 years figured out to do when it's merely an extension on the coin trick every allomancer seems to know.

Warbreaker spoilers

On an unrelated note I wonder if Vasher is perhaps something similar. We know that all returned do so with a purpose and when that purpose is fulfilled they die/give up their life. Could Vasher perhaps be Endowment's champion on a cosmere level?

Edited April 9, 2014 by Numb

[Observer]

Not a bad theory, and I suppose it could work. However, Vin was more of a person that Preservation set up to act in his favor on her own, so that being dead/being blocked wouldn't hinder her progress, like the Inquisitors were for Ruin. While that might actually just be the defenition of a Shardic Champion, I've always felt that it had something more to do with Honor, and whatever rules he might have forced on Odium to keep him near Roshar.

[Ketek]

I disagree with Vin being Preservation's champion, at least in how you seem to perceive it. She was more his heir, rather than champion; someone he groomed to take over the power when he passed on, rather than simply being a proxy. 

 

However... this is not to say we have not seen a 'champion' of sorts. The champion would probably be the Hero of Ages, or whoever took up the power within the Well of Ascension. Rashek would probably count as one. Vin... maybe, but considering how she released the power rather than keep it and renew Ruin's prison, not so much imo.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I want to say that Brandon has talked about how Elend was Preservation's Champion when it was held by Vin and Marsh was technically a Champion of Ruin?

[Chromium Compounder]

I want to say that Brandon has talked about how Elend was Preservation's Champion when it was held by Vin and Marsh was technically a Champion of Ruin?

Yes, exactly.  Vin had been set up to be Preservation's heir, not Champion.  Being the heir meant she had the ability to draw in the mists, which would eventually lead to her taking the shard itself.  While Vin held Preservation she made Elend her Champion during the last battle, which is when Elend was streaming mists and had a limitless supply of the standard metals.  At that same time Ruin did the same with Marsh, who was streaming black smoke.

I don't know if Vin's allomancy was actually stronger than Kelsiers, the reason she could do some things he couldn't was because of the earring she wore. WoB has stated that they both had "100%" allomancy potential so I think the differences might have been more due to talent and application. 

I've never heard that WoB, and it doesn't sound right to me.  If that were accurate then Vin and Kelsier would both have been as powerful as Elend.  Neither of them were.  They both had far more training and talent, but Elend blew them away raw strength wise.

[Numb]

I believe he was just using Vin/Kel as a reference point about how everyone has Allomancy potential and how snapping relates(I think it was this). He didn't use Elend due to the way he got his powers I think. It's not saying that Vin/kel have greatest strength since that is obviously not true, merely that they are on a similar level and the majority of the difference comes from Vin being smarter in her use of power.I'll try find the WoB but it's proving hard :<

Edited April 9, 2014 by Numb

[Quiver he/him]

Don't have my copy of Mistborn, but when talking about Vins allomantic strength, I thought there was a scene between Kelsier and Sazed after the Kelsier-Vin coin pushing match.

I may be misremembering, but I could have sworn there was an exchange where Kelsier comments that Vins steel pushes were very powerful considering how small she was, Sazed responding that everyone has different allomantic strength, and Kelsier off-handedly dismissing that as an explanation.

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

It seems that the Shards like to operate through champions for their conflicts since most of the time the only direct weapon they have is their own power, which, as we saw in HoA, rips them apart.

What we might see happen in SA is them try to create this sort of arrangement, with a champion of Odium and a champion of Honor, which would be very hard to do since Honor's, well, dead.

[king of nowhere]

Not only vin was the champion chosen by preservation, she was also the champion of ruin. she had not one, but two shards pulling strings on her.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Not only vin was the champion chosen by preservation, she was also the champion of ruin. she had not one, but two shards pulling strings on her.

 

This is what I was going to bring to the discussion as well. Vin was picked by Ruin (because of circumstances realted to her bloodline and half-skaa nature). 

 

I think as far as Champions of Shard's go, that Vasher isn't Endowment's champion, but Nightblood IS! (semi-tongue in cheek). I do think Nightblood is part of a far reaching plan from Endowment, though Vasher may also be integral to that as well. 

[Ketek]

Vin wasn't a champion of Preservation; she was his heir. Very different meanings. 

 

As for Ruin, she wasn't his champion either, more a puppet like Zane was. He didn't exactly imbue any sort of power into them (spikes aside, but those were more for controlling them rather than giving them power).

 

Think only Elend, Marsh and Rashek truly count.

[Chromium Compounder]

Vin wasn't a champion of Preservation; she was his heir. Very different meanings. 

 

As for Ruin, she wasn't his champion either, more a puppet like Zane was. He didn't exactly imbue any sort of power into them (spikes aside, but those were more for controlling them rather than giving them power).

 

Think only Elend, Marsh and Rashek truly count.

Rashek?  I wouldn't think he was a champion at all.  He was a complicated man.  He had quite a bit of bad to him even before Ruin started influencing him, though he did always try to fight against Ruin.  Nevertheless, he was never a champion for either shard.  I think the only champions were Elend and Marsh.  The argument can be made that Vin was, though personally I disagree with them.  But Rashek, I can't even see a valid argument.  The only special thing about him was that he once used the Well of Ascension, but I'm pretty sure WoB says that anyone can use it, so long as they don't have a spike in them at the time.  The Well called out to Vin and Alendi, but that's different, and it never called out to Rashek.

[duladen he/him]

I think you could call Vin "Preservation's champion" in a loose sense of the word, heir might be more appropriate as some have pointed out.

However, I think when Tanavast tells Dalinar to push Odium to select a champion, it's a much more specific thing. It probably has something to do with the pact made between Tanavast, Rayse, and Cultivation, and is related to the nature of the Heralds and Desolations. I don't thinks it is just a matter of the Shards on/near Roshar (RoShards?) picking someone well placed to further their goals. I think it will be a much more open and obvious selection when the time comes, and it will lead to a duel to the death.

[Mistdork she/her]

Crap, that embarrassing moment you swear you were posting in one topic and...err...

*Sigh* Time to save face. I think that Vin is only the champion in the sense that she is so attuned to the power and in away is attune to Preservation's intent (thanks to having more of its Investiture as a Mistborn and her other things...abilities). What we don't have at this point is a good definition of what Champion means in the Cosmere, if it's a Cosmeric term or if it's just a term used for the Shard's "chosen" in the Roshar system for the pact between the Three...

Edited April 10, 2014 by Nymp

[Ketek]

 

Rashek?  I wouldn't think he was a champion at all.  He was a complicated man.  He had quite a bit of bad to him even before Ruin started influencing him, though he did always try to fight against Ruin.  Nevertheless, he was never a champion for either shard.  I think the only champions were Elend and Marsh.  The argument can be made that Vin was, though personally I disagree with them.  But Rashek, I can't even see a valid argument.  The only special thing about him was that he once used the Well of Ascension, but I'm pretty sure WoB says that anyone can use it, so long as they don't have a spike in them at the time.  The Well called out to Vin and Alendi, but that's different, and it never called out to Rashek.

 

Well, I *think* we have a WoB floating around somewhere the Hero of Ages taking up the power at the Well and thus becoming a proxy of Preservation by using the power to renew Ruin's prison, so I would say that the term 'champion' fits very well. Rashek wasn't always influenced by Ruin - and tbf even Vin was before her ascension. Alendi was too.

 

The Well called out to Vin and Alendi because they were Allomancers, although it seems that you need to be of a certain power level to do so. It's implied that Alendi's piercings were Hemalurgic spikes in the manner of Vin's earring, which allowed him to sense the Well like nobody else could.

 

So I'd argue there were three. Even if Rashek wasn't exactly what was expected, he did still take up the power and renew Ruin's prison. In the end, he was still fulfilling Preservation's purpose - and that's enough for me.

[WitchyJen she/her]

Hi all, I've been stalking the forum forever. I am actually rereading the Mistborn Trilogy now. In HoA it goes on to explain hemalurgy. Vin snapped when her mother killed her sister and her mother was "spiking" Vin with the earring through her sister. Giving Vin a double boost of bronze.

"In The Hero of Ages, Vin's earring is revealed to be a hemalurgic spike. Her mother killed her sister (who was a Seeker) and put it in Vin's ear. This explains Vin's ability to see through most copperclouds. Because Vin wears the earring, Ruin is able to speak with her directly, and does so throughout this book. Marsh eventually recognizes her earring for what it is, and is able to remove it from her ear against the wishes of Ruin, thereby saving Vin's life and enabling her to utilize the Mists." Taken from The Coppermind <http://coppermind.net/wiki/Vin's_earring>

[MistLord he/him]

Don't have my copy of Mistborn, but when talking about Vins allomantic strength, I thought there was a scene between Kelsier and Sazed after the Kelsier-Vin coin pushing match.

I may be misremembering, but I could have sworn there was an exchange where Kelsier comments that Vins steel pushes were very powerful considering how small she was, Sazed responding that everyone has different allomantic strength, and Kelsier off-handedly dismissing that as an explanation.

Vin also constantly notes Elend's inherent strength due to being a Lerasium-Mistborn. In the scene where the two fight an Inquisitor, Elend uses this strength to eventually defeat him in a steel-pushing contest. 

[snote]

So, my question is, what portion of the investiture is carried genetically? Such as the amount present in Vin, and the Royal Family's hair changing ability from Warbreaker. I feel like that may find its way to SA. That each of the current KR hopefuls will have been descended from those of the former ranks. If you notice almost all of the current potential members are of a certain lineage. With Kaladin being the only exception. Though, my belief is that his mother is a one-eye by blood if not by eye color, or even is in full but uses the eye drops. How come the surgebinders are neither surges nor binders. Discuss amongst yourselves.

[Chromium Compounder]

So, my question is, what portion of the investiture is carried genetically? Such as the amount present in Vin, and the Royal Family's hair changing ability from Warbreaker. I feel like that may find its way to SA. That each of the current KR hopefuls will have been descended from those of the former ranks. If you notice almost all of the current potential members are of a certain lineage. With Kaladin being the only exception. Though, my belief is that his mother is a one-eye by blood if not by eye color, or even is in full but uses the eye drops. How come the surgebinders are neither surges nor binders. Discuss amongst yourselves.

 

I seriously hope genetics has nothing to do with it.  I've felt for a long time that magic being a genetic trait is boring.  That gets used EVERYWHERE.  

 

While I love Mistborn, I hate that the abilities are mostly genetic, and I love that the other cosmere books mostly don't do that.  Sel does it to an extent, but your genetics seems to determine more what type of magic you can gain access to rather than if you can.  Nalthis magic is one of my favorites because everyone is given the same potential (yes, I know different breaths have different strengths, but it's not a significant amount.  The number of breaths you have is far more important than their quality).  Roshar doesn't look like it cares about genetics at all either.  It's all about who you choose to be, the choices you make.