Is Renarin Kholin on the Autism Spectrum?

[KalaDANG]

I'm just finishing up another reread of Oathbringer, and in one of Renarin's first person sections says this -

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"He hadn't suffered a fit in a while. He didn't know if that was just a coincidence--they could be irregular--or if they had been healed, like his bad eyesight. Indeed, he still saw the world differently from everyone else. He was still nervous talking to people, and didn't like being touched. Everyone else saw in each other things he never could understand. So much noise and destruction and people talking and cries for help and sniffles and muttering and whispering all like buzzing, buzzings." 

Reading this kind of made me feel like he might be on the high functioning end of the autistic spectrum. I've met some people with Aspergers Syndrome, which is a high functioning autistic disorder, and I can see some similarities between the way they act and the way Renarin is written. I looked around online for what the signs are, and through Oathbringer for examples of Renarin showing the signs or symptoms.

Some of the signs are that they're often restricted, rigid, and even obsessive in their behaviors, activities, and interests. Symptoms may include: Repetitive body movements; moving constantly. Obsessive attachment to unusual objects. Autism spectrum disorders are characterized by social-interaction difficulties, communication challenges and a tendency to engage in repetitive behaviors, but symptoms and their severity vary widely across these three core areas.

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"Head down, Renarin rounded the ring of scholars, keeping a white-knuckled grip on a chain hung from his pocket. As soon as he sat, he started pulling the chain between the fingers of one hand, then the other."

On the spectrum of autism, there are different levels of function.  Individuals with level 1 autism spectrum disorder experience deficits in social communication which causes noticeable impairments when supports are not present. These individuals often find it difficult to initiate social interactions and demonstrate atypical or unsuccessful responses to social advances of others. 

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"Shallan noticed Renarin standing in the doorway. He shuffled, peeking in, but not entering. When several scholars turned toward him, he stepped backward, as if their stares were physically forcing him out."

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"Renarin mumbled something. Everyone in the room looked at him. Not a few seemed surprised to hear him speak, and he shrank back. "What was that, Renarin?" Navani asked. "It's not  like that," he said softly. "They're not fabrials. They're a fabrial."

Level 2: “Requiring Substantial Support” Marked deficits in verbal and nonverbal social communication skills; social impairments apparent even with supports in place; limited initiation of social interactions; and reduced or abnormal responses to social overtures from others.

I think that Renarin is definitely higher functioning than a level 2 for sure. He seems more like he would be a high functioning level 1. I'm sure if I was to make a more extensive study of Renarin throughout all of the books, that I would see even more examples of him showing symptoms. 

Thinking about Renarin as if he were on the spectrum adds so much to his character for me. Not only is he fighting through Epilepsy, and feelings of self doubt brought on by years of being told he isn't good enough, and that he should just become and ardent and leave, but he also is fighting through autism. It changes every scene that he is in for me. He always seemed so cowardly, uncomfortable, scared, and whiny. But imagining him having to fight through all that he struggles with to be as high functioning as he is, and to do what he does, he becomes one of my favorite characters. Obviously, there isn't really any definite way to prove that he's on the spectrum without getting a WoB, but I think this adds a ton of depth to his character that really wasn't there for me before. Let me know what you guys think, and let me know whether or not you think this could be likely. 

[Calderis]

Yes, though we've got conflicting WoBs about it. 

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Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Is Renarin Kholin on the autism spectrum?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Slightly—not even so much as Asperger's, but yes. *Something about it being difficult to notice/diagnose?*

source

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leinton (paraphrased)

Is Steris autistic?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She is definitely on the spectrum, but more toward where Asperger’s used to be. Not nearly as far along in the spectrum as Renarin.

source

 

[KalaDANG]

It's like every scene with Renarin in it just exploded.

[Subvisual Haze]

It's weird...at first I would have said "clearly", but more and more I'm thinking he's not really on the spectrum at all, there's just some other stuff personality and developmental characteristics going on that looks superficially similar to autism.

He seems quite good at reading and understanding non-verbal social queues in others and in showing empathy to those close to him.  He also never really demonstrates any abnormal behavior or speech (when not seeing literal visions of the future), just very withdrawn behavior.  We've never seen anything like Steris' marriage contract for example, Renarin seems to have a good grasp on societal norms.  He's also not overly fixated on certain behavior patterns and routines, if anything he shows good initiative in pursuing new experiences (trying to master the sword, choosing to join Bridge 4).

Mostly I think Renarin is just a "highly sensitive" type, and very introverted/socially anxious.  Repeated bouts of bullying and seeing others regard him as "strange" have likely just made him further withdraw from social scenarios.

[CrazyRioter]

The thing that stands out for me is his box, "fidgeting" with objects is an extremely common behaviour for autistic people. He also doesn't like to be touched, which is common with autistic people.

As for 'not seeing autistic' autism is complex and manifests differently in different people and most autistics learn to read social cues to varying extents  and mask their autistic traits. It's just that some things don't come naturally.

[Juanaton]

On 8/7/2018 at 6:26 PM, Calderis said:

Yes, though we've got conflicting WoBs about it. 

 

There is a possible way to resolve that (apparent) conflict. If "far along the spectrum" means in the direction of non-Autistic, rather than towards Autism, they agree. Since it's a spectrum you can go far along it in either direction....at least that's how my mathematician's brain looks at it.

[Subvisual Haze]

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Questioner

So I heard that, like, in *inaudible* you have people with mental health issues. Like Kaladin had depression. And I was just curious if you're going to do something like with Renarin.

Brandon Sanderson

Renarin has anxiety. Amongst other things. He kind of got the grab bag of mental disorders. Poor hand. But yeah. I might dig into anxiety a little bit more. Do you know someone with anxiety?

Questioner

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, if you watch Renarin he's got his little fidget box and things like that.

source

I really think he's just a thoughtful introvert with social anxiety disorder.  With regards to personality type he strikes me as a fellow INFJ.

You can make the argument that he's "slightly autistic", but I find that's not a very good habit to get into with mental health conditions.  It's the nature of normal human variability that we're all slightly depressed, anxious, manic, obsessive, inattentive etc. from time to time.  Except for Evi noting that baby Renarin took an unusually long time to start talking I haven't really read any symptoms that couldn't more easily be attributed to him just being an introvert or having social anxiety.  Or as they like to say with regards to diagnoses in medicine: "When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses not zebras."

[Calderis]

Renarin's definitely on the spectrum. The depth of that is the only thing in question. 

Considering the two WoBs I posted, and looking at the dates, I err towards the more recent of the two, which is the one about Steris. 

There are others though, even if they aren't technically about Renarin directly. 

I mainly wanted to share this one which I'll spoiler, since it's about Steris (and it's long) and not Renarin, but it gives good insight into why he includes these things. 

Spoiler

Questioner

neuroatypicals

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, my pleasure. She says that she has Asperger's and when she read the book The Bands of Mourning, and the other ones that have Steris in them, she identified a lot with Steris. I appreciate that.

Questioner

 

Brandon Sanderson

What research did I do, did I talk to autistic people. I have several people in my life who actually have Asperger's specifically, and they were a huge resource, as you might imagine. One of the things that I like to do, kind of a mandate I have in my fiction, is to try to get people who are heroic who have different types of psychology than we usually see in heroes. Because the more I've lived in life, the more I've realized that we all are really distinctive in our own way, and our psychology all works differently. And yet we see a lot of heroes that all kind of have the same brain chemistry, it seems. Which has always felt really weird to me. And so it's kind of one my mandates to do that.

What research did I do? When I was in college, one of my favorite things to do was sneak into classes I wasn't signed up for, and the psychology classes were my favorite. This friend, who coincidentally was the one who wanted to be a chef, actually got a psychology major. His parents were "You should do something useful with your life." and so he got a psychology major, which he ended up going to med school. He didn't become a chef, he went to med school. He likes that too. But I would sneak into his classes and they were so useful as a writer, just listening to the different types, and to start to see personality not as-- We like to look at a lot of things as being normal or abnormal, but that's not the way it is. Everyone's personality is on this interesting spectrum and what is normal and what is abnormal is completely a matter of perspective. Where you stand on this line as opposed to-- It's like trying to make a value judgement that shouldn't really exist. And to come to see these personalities as great swathes of interesting color is what the psychology classes taught me. And so there was that and I did do some specific research for Steris and then I interviewed people as well.

I'm glad that you picked up on it without me ever having to say what she was, and things like that. That's when I really feel like I've nailed something, when you can read something and say "Yeah that's who this person is" instead of someone outside pointing and saying "this is who this person is, who they are"

source

 

[Angsos]

Reading that WOB, I'm wondering now if he was his own inspiration for Joel in Rithmatist

[Meganagem]

I just read something near the end of OB and immediately came to 17thshard to search “Renarin austism.” It was suddenly obvious that he’s on the spectrum somewhere.... I really enjoyed the WOB regarding psychology, as it put us all on a spectrum of varied ways of being, which I think is closer to the truth of it.  

i can easily take his word for it that Renarin isn’t quite where Steris is while at the same time accepting without doubt  he is dealing with some of the associated issues... It is helpful to have the other WOB regarding Renarin and anxiety - a different story altogether. 

I just suddenly saw Renarin when I clicked about him being on the autism spectrum. How crappy must that be with Adolin as a brother and the Blackthorn as a father? a brother who has more than his fair share of social intelligence. 

As an aside: Steris has Aspergers. Kal deals with depression. Renarin has anxiety and stuff. And, jumping planets really quickly, Kelsier is as mad as a hatter. Lol 

[Vissy]

On 9.8.2018 at 0:47 AM, CrazyRioter said:

The thing that stands out for me is his box, "fidgeting" with objects is an extremely common behaviour for autistic people. He also doesn't like to be touched, which is common with autistic people.

As for 'not seeing autistic' autism is complex and manifests differently in different people and most autistics learn to read social cues to varying extents  and mask their autistic traits. It's just that some things don't come naturally.

At which point you'd think there was no point giving any special label to it. 

[Leyrann]

On 8-8-2018 at 7:46 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

He seems quite good at reading and understanding non-verbal social queues in others and in showing empathy to those close to him.  He also never really demonstrates any abnormal behavior or speech (when not seeing literal visions of the future), just very withdrawn behavior.  We've never seen anything like Steris' marriage contract for example, Renarin seems to have a good grasp on societal norms.  He's also not overly fixated on certain behavior patterns and routines, if anything he shows good initiative in pursuing new experiences (trying to master the sword, choosing to join Bridge 4).

I have never been diagnosed with Asperger (I did get diagnosed with autism), but I likely do have it (word of an expert, but again, not formally diagnosed), and what you mention here is very familiar to me. I can read and understand non-verbal social cues, but that's in part because I've consciously learned how to do so. I also don't have any abnormal behaviour or speech (except a few minor things* which you can see with Renarin as well, as mentioned elsewhere) and I understand societal norms as well; I just get tired having to participate in it, something that Renarin also seems to suffer from, if that first quote in the OP is any indication.

I guess the bottom line is that, within the confines of "autism" or perhaps even Asperger there is a lot of variety.

*Basically everything I mentioned in brackets here is my abnormal speech. I also tend to want to move a body part repetitively as mentioned elsewhere, which is normally my leg hidden under a table

Edited September 20, 2018 by Leyrann