Who's a Herald (or why Brandon is careful about Taln)?

[FirstSelector]

If you read through recent (and some not-so-recent) interviews, whenever the subject of man who showed up outside of Kholinar (henceforth referred to as Talenel, see below) is broached Brandon is very careful to make claims such as "you assume he is the Herald" or the like.  This confused and upset me because I was very excited about reading Taln's viewpoints and speculating where his Honorblade went.  Upon discussing this with some friends, we arrived at a tentative conclusion why.  I do ask your apologies for this Doyalist theory.  Please note full book spoilers.

 

Brandon's insistent hedging on the subject of Talenel is to set a precedent for future appearances of Heralds.

 

This theory has a bunch of pieces, so let's look at each part.  First, we have the nature of the Heralds and their role on Roshar.

 

The Heralds feature prominently in the second group of five books.  Brandon has avoided saying too much directly about them so as to not set up expectations that will take upwards of a decade to see played out.  Where they came from, how they landed their current job, what that job entailed, what they have been doing for nearly 4500 years and so on are questions that have yet been unanswered.

 

From an in-world perspective, the Heralds are practically divine.  We see now that they are single-handedly responsible for keeping the Desolations away and for the protection of the world right before.  Many nations and peoples revere them in some form.  Their return will see them lauded with power, accolades, and admiration.

 

Second, we have the actual appearance of Talenel himself.  He appears outside of the correct (for War, at least) capital city speaking the language perfectly.  He carries a (Honor)blade that does not vanish when his concentration breaks.  He appears just before the Desolation starts.  Finally, and perhaps most importantly, he attracts Hoid.

 

In his interlude (and at the end with Amaram), he speaks of many things that only a Herald could know.  He refers to the other Heralds by their real names and knows how they will prepare mankind for the Desolation.  Granted, he seems to have severe PTSD and thus unable to orient himself temporally (hence refering to Ishar's Knights as something to be created and having existed for several centuries).

 

There is also the subject of the Gift.  Though I cannot provide a rigorous argument, I believe this to be whatever magic is compelling him to say his mantra about the Heralds.  It is a Gift to mankind, allowing the Heralds to be located and brought together even though they might still be "out of it" due to torture.  And it is never Taln's because, being the stubborn soldier he is, Taln always is the last one out of Damnation.  Thus he wouldn't need to explain what is going on, someone else would have been there first.

 

I find it very hard to believe, given the wealth of evidence, that this is not Talenel, Herald of War.  I admit there could be subtleties and clues that he has been switched, mind-reformatted, or what have you, but I believe there is a simpler explanation.

 

Third, we need to examine the nature of this Desolation.  It appears Odium has been playing the "long game," as it were, waiting for Roshar to wear itself out before bringing in new Voidbringers.  Sure, the Heralds are around and could try to mount a defense, but given the current state it would likely be ineffective.

 

I believe we are going to see (in the next few books) at least one person claiming to be a Herald who is in reality an agent of Odium (or similar).  They do not have the somewhat constraining requirements of Talenel showing back up, since they have been around this entire time.  Instead, they have to show up at Urithiru and demonstrate whatever powers.

 

This will likely be a big plot point, and so Brandon doesn't want to make it seem odd that this new "Herald" gets skepticism when the rest didn't.  As such, he has to be consistent until all ten of them make their appearances.

 

The simplest explanation is that Talenel is exactly who he seems and Brandon is being intentionally vague for other reasons.

 

I want to make something clear - I would love to be proven wrong about this theory.  It's uncomfortably Doyalist and makes predictions that are very far away.  Instead, I would like to have a good understanding of why Brandon is wishy-washy about Talenel.  Unfortunately, Talenel's appearance and actions fit exactly with what we would expect (without being "too obvious") and thus finding what is "wrong" with him has proven complicated.

 

[Elena]

snip

I love Occam's Razor, I love this, and I love you.

Nuff said.

[bartbug]

Yeah, I'll buy this. Nice theory.

[Observer]

What if, now that all ten Heralds are on Roshar and nine of them have given up, he technically isn't one anymore? The Oathpact is no longer in play, and I can't help but wonder if the fragile strings allowing it to hold up with just one guy haven't completely broken, forever.

I guess what I'm saying is that they're no longer the champions of Honor, and Taln may not really be a Herald anymore.

[Moogle]

 

Second, we have the actual appearance of Talenel himself.  He appears outside of the correct (for War, at least) capital city speaking the language perfectly.  He carries a (Honor)blade that does not vanish when his concentration breaks.  He appears just before the Desolation starts.  Finally, and perhaps most importantly, he attracts Hoid.

 

Speaking the language perfectly is stronger evidence for it being a normal person, actually. We had to invent radical new theories to explain things away and claim that the Heralds had a special gift to instantly know the language of people around them. It's not an impossible theory, but it is evidence for "Taln" being someone who has not been away from the world for 4.5k years.

 

As to the "Honorblade", it didn't change his eye color. If it was bonded, it would have. I am 95% confident of this. Jezrien's does, and we have WoB that every Radiant had a special eye color (which very likely matches their gemstone). "Taln"'s eyes were not a light tan like the Stonewards. Szeth's eyes were a pale blue like Kaladin while he had Jezrien's Blade out, as per Jasnah's PoV.

 

The Honorblade not changing his eye color and Brandon's coyness combine together to confirm to me that this not Taln. Or, if it is, he has for some reason decided to unbond his Honorblade. Occam's razor says a lot, but if you want to claim this is Taln, you have to explain why he broke the rules every single other Surgebinder has to follow.

 

Claiming "But Herald physiology is different so his eye color wouldn't change!" is not strong evidence to me. In the absence of evidence otherwise, I fully expect Taln to have a working heart, two lungs, a spleen, and a liver. This is the default, and if you want to claim that Heralds are mushrooms on the inside, or that their spiritwebs are so changed that their eye color is fixed, you're arguing with little to no evidence to support you. The Heralds were associated with certain gemstones; it follows naturally that their eye color changed to the gemstone color while their Honorblade was out.

 

It not being Taln raises a lot of questions, like why the Blades were swapped. This is unfortunate, and complicates matters. But I'll accept that rather than accept that a fundamental aspect to having a Shardblade/Honorblade bonded does not apply to Heralds because of very random reasons. (People having gemstone colored eyes is very impressive and would have helped the Heralds awe humanity. Useful. I almost suspect Honor did the eyecolor thing on purpose. He did strike me as a snazzy dresser...)

 

When I was coming up on theories of Surgebinder eye color, I noticed I was confused. The pattern didn't apply to "Taln". I attempted to try and think of theories to fix this, but what I should have done was understand that there was a problem with the story that had been told to me.

 

If Brandon is trying to avoid having us theorize madly about the Heralds, and wants to keep expectations for them low, I don't believe he'd be acting coy. We'd be done discussing Taln if Brandon hadn't bothered trying to be sneaky about "Taln"'s identity. All he's done is made me more interested with his comments.

 

Other small thing things that do not add up and thus are evidence against it being Taln:

• Wit calling him his "confused friend".
• His Shardblade was not a masterful work of art like the other Honorblades. The Order glyphs are described as being the hilts of the Honorblades; Taln's was a simple spiked thing. There's a discrepancy there. We know that Shardblade appearance changes with time (hence why Szeth's did not look like Jezrien's), but Taln hasn't used his for the 4.5k years he's been tortured.
• “I am Talenel’Elin , Herald of War.” Voice. He spoke it. He didn’t think it. The words came, like they always came.
• Taln was "too late" according to Wit, and also himself. This is impossible; when Heralds leave Damnation, a Desolation starts. They can't be too late.
• “Who are you?” one of the guards forced out. “What warning? Who attacks?” The man paused. He raised a hand to his head, wavering. “Who am I? I… I am Talenel’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty. The Desolation has come. Oh, God… it has come. And I have failed.” Note the confusion on who he is for a moment.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Moogle

[Leuthie]

Torture for 4500 years followed by a long journey between Realms has an effect on the mind. Hesitation when someone asks your name is an expected thing.

Taln is too late. 4000 some years too late. Odium has had too much time to set this Desolation to his liking.

That confusion thing again. Probably happens every time so their Cognitive selves are programmed with lines to recite. The words come well before their orientation to the Physical.

[zandi]

I agree with this part:
 

 

 

I believe we are going to see (in the next few books) at least one person claiming to be a Herald who is in reality an agent of Odium (or similar).  They do not have the somewhat constraining requirements of Talenel showing back up, since they have been around this entire time.  Instead, they have to show up at Urithiru and demonstrate whatever powers.

I think it might be Darkness

 

Not sure about Taln. I think he's confused because the heralds have never (in this case just him) endured the torture for so long. Plus Wit may have swiped his blade. That may make him more confused or less able to recover from his PTSD.  However- you make some good points soo I will reserve judgement until we know more 

Edited March 27, 2014 by zandi

[Argent]

Nale doesn't hate - if anything he is safe from Odium because of how emotionless he is.

[taliefer]

i like the idea that Taln IS Taln. hes just not technically a herald any more. it fits with brandon's cryptic statements about Taln not being who he thinks he is, Hoid calling him confused.

 

Also, since at this point we dont know a whole lot about Honorblades, if Taln lost his Heraldness, perhaps that broke his bond with the blade and thats why his eyes are dark. he still is(was?) in possesion of the blade, but isnt bonded. i dont imagine Szeths eyes turned instantly pale blue the second he was given the blade.

[zandi]

Just saw this wob:

 

 

Has decided who the “Back Five” viewpoint characters are, but not their order. Taln is one of them. “The person who calls himself Taln.”

so am leaning more to the agree on this part

 

@Argent - good point. I forget sometimes that the motivation IS the thing, not the thing itself. 

Is it possible for Odium to influence though without someone emoting? Just curious. Also - Not all who hate are influenced buy Odium (i don't think) for example K hates light eyes. So perhaps the reverse is true? Not all who don't hate are safe from O influence? Just thinking out loud - bear with me...

[FirstSelector]

 

As to the "Honorblade", it didn't change his eye color.

 

If you look carefully, Szeth's eyes only turn blue when he is actively Investing.  At other times, his eyes are normal.  Thus, unless Taln is actively using Stormlight when we see him in Kholinar, his eyes would be brown.  Unless I am misunderstanding your argument, I am not sure how eye color applies in this case.

[Moogle]

If you look carefully, Szeth's eyes only turn blue when he is actively Investing.  At other times, his eyes are normal.  Thus, unless Taln is actively using Stormlight when we see him in Kholinar, his eyes would be brown.  Unless I am misunderstanding your argument, I am not sure how eye color applies in this case.

 

In TWoK, Szeth says the following:

 

The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale--almost glowing--sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

 

He says nothing about it only happening when he's actively Investing. Kaladin's are permanently blue, now, because he has such a strong bond with Syl. This is obviously a trait of Honorblades/Shardblades.

 

After Szeth falls (Kaladin crashes into him) and unsummons his Blade...

 

Except . . . he could almost feel . . . “Did I Lash you?” the assassin asked in accented Alethi. His eyes had darkened, losing their sapphire blue quality. “To the ground? But why did you not die falling? No. I must have Lashed you upward. Impossible.” He stepped back.

...

He threw himself to his feet and charged the assassin. Have to hit him quickly to have a chance. The assassin jumped backward , soaring a good ten feet, his white clothing rippling in the night air. He landed with a lithe grace, Shardblade appearing in his hand. “What are you?” he demanded.

 

Szeth is still Infused at this point - he Lashes himself back a short time after. It's the Honorblade being summoned that changes his eye color, not Infusing.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Moogle

[Lumen]

When Taln first arrives, was he speaking perfect Alethi?  It was Wit's point of view.  So maybe not?  

 

When he is first brought to Dalinar in WoR, they could not understand him.  Later, he is understandable.  

[GeoMancer]

I think that it might be important to give the "The person who calls himself Taln" comment a little bit of weight.

 

Obviously, Taln is back, because a desolation has started, and we have this WoB

 

-Q:  What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

-A:  Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end.

-Q:  Oh. So they've got a time limit.

-A:  They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

 

But we also have this one:

 

-Q:  Did Hoid switch out the blades?

-A:  Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

 

So, all we really know, is that Taln (must) be back, and also that Hoid (i'm going to take that further and say nobody else either) swapped out the shardblades (which have very different descriptions from WoK to WoR).. So, If Taln in Wok has one sword, and Taln in WoR has a different sword, AND the swords weren't switched.... THEN either the shardblade is an autobot, or its not the same Taln (i.e. if the swords weren't switched, then the man must have been)

[zandi]

THEORY: It is someone who has been soulforged to think they are Taln - so they have a regular shard blade and have an accent.

 

Why?

 

To start the desolation....? To bring odium back prematurely and make him violate the agreement?

 

ok probably 0% chance...but something like this? maybe?

 

edit just saw this from EnaMai:

 

sadavidas, on 22 Mar 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Here's my long shot theory. The imprisoned Taln is a kandra!

 

Oooh I like it  . Or maybe Shai Forged Taln onto another body.

 

Also - I saw on one of the signing threads (forgot which) that someone asked if Shai was on Roshar....

Edited March 27, 2014 by zandi

[FirstSelector]

Ah yes, I stand corrected.  Thank you for clarifying that point.  The eye color may in fact be a point of contention here, but I do not think we have enough information to say conclusively whether the Heralds are affected in the same way as "normal" humans by their blades.  They are certainly not "normal" humans by any stretch of the imagination - they are immortal and bound to some agreement with a Shard.  They must have some fragments of Honor inside them, so it is a bit unclear how that will interact with the power in their blades.

 

Since we have not seen a Herald wielding her own Shardblade (and the Prelude is ambiguous), I am unwilling to make that logical leap yet.

 

As for Taln's being confused and disoriented, I would like to point out that he was tortured continuously for 4500 years.  I can hardly speculate what that would do someone's mind.

 

EDIT:  And GeoMancer, just because Hoid didn't swap the Blades does not mean that they were not swapped.  We know that someone must have swapped them, as they are different while the man is the same.

Edited March 27, 2014 by FirstSelector

[zandi]

Here it is - philadelphia signing:

 

 

Q. Is Shai on Roshar?

A. Hehehe, good question!

Q. Has she already popped up?

A. She has not already popped up.

Q. So she’s not a Radiant. Or is she?

A. You have not seen her on screen yet, other than in her story.

[trendkill]

so it is a bit unclear how that will interact with the power in their blades.

 

Also, we know of at least one type of being that is able to change their appearance (granted, with some effort on their part).  It could be possible that somehow, he is unintentionally supressing his eye color, or having it supressed from the outside.

 

I'm with you on not knowing enough to leap to saying that we know how and what would affect the Heralds.

[FirstSelector]

The issue with Forging Taln's history onto someone else is twofold.  First, it is so completely implausible that anyone else would act, think, and behave like a Herald that the stamp would never stick.  Second, Forging diminishes in power with increasing distance from MaiPon.  Though we have examples of Sel magic users showing up on Roshar, it is far more likely they used some other method of traveling between worlds.

 

That being said, these sorts of arguments are what support the brain-switching or body-switching arguments.  Hemalurgy doesn't have a distance cutoff, and there are likely other magics that can accomplish this as well.

[Moogle]

They are certainly not "normal" humans by any stretch of the imagination - they are immortal and bound to some agreement with a Shard.  They must have some fragments of Honor inside them, so it is a bit unclear how that will interact with the power in their blades.

 

Since we have not seen a Herald wielding her own Shardblade (and the Prelude is ambiguous), I am unwilling to make that logical leap yet.

 

I feel you're giving the fact that they have a Splinter or something in them too much credit. I feel that the regular rules are not going to change just because a Herald is involved. They were once human, and I don't think Honor's Investiture in the Heralds is going to interfere with his other Investiture in the Blades. Spiritual changes should have Physical effects.

 

I guess we'll just have to leave the debate here. I'll put a question up in the thread, though: "Would a Returned who bonded an Honorblade have his eye color change when it is summoned?" I think that's the best non-RAFObait question I can ask.

[Mysty]

What color are shallan and jasnah's eyes? Do they follow the gemstone/eyecolor rule too now that they are shard weilding surgebinders? I don't recall anyone having red eyes, light or dark, besides the stormform parshendi, and shallan would have to be garnet red for the pattern to hold.

I am not convinced that this is a firm rule without more proof.

[Argent]

Well, Brandon said so...

[Observer]

I can't help but wonder if Taln's bond to his blade was reset when he landed on Roshar. I mean, Odium has been shredding him for a loooooooong time, and I don't find it completely inconceivable that the transition/torture would break the 'bond', or that they wouldn't even appear with it in hand.

Also, if Hoid didn't switch the blades, who did? Was it the guard? Honestly I think somebody should ask Brandon if Hoid ever interacted with the cleaver blade, or if he was the one to put it there. In the event it isn't true, I can see Nazh snagging the blade the moment Hoid was gone and swapping it out for another one.

[Bramble Thorn]

The whole Taln think Brandon is doing really bugs me. I can accept that any in world text or facts we are given might be someone being coy, or deceptive, or lying, or just plain wrong. But hen the omniscient third person narrator becomes unreliable, that it a problem. The heading names Brandon gives the chapters and interludes are real world constructs. The interlude chapters are named after the person  who has the internal POV within them. And the interlude chapter with the madman's internal monologue is Taln's interlude.
 
If that madman is in fact not Taln, this pisses me off.
 
...
 

Why?
 
To start the desolation....? To bring odium back prematurely and make him violate the agreement?
 
ok probably 0% chance...but something like this? maybe?

There is a recent Word of Brandon where someone asks who many parties there were in the Oathpact. He says 11 and names them, The 10 Heralds and Honor. Apparantly Odium did not so much agree to the Oathpact as have is directed against him, In that case it is not possible for violate the Oathpact any more than the Parshendi could violate the Vengeance Pact. Thwart it yes. Violate it no.
 

...

 

Well, Brandon said so...

I have no idea what this is in regards to.

[zandi]

 

 

First, it is so completely implausible that anyone else would act, think, and behave like a Herald that the stamp would never stick. 

Why is it implausible? They were/are? human and currently are passing as people in the populace.  

 

You are right about distance making soulstamping less effective - I had forgotten about that.  Perhaps the fake Taln was stamped on maipon and brought to roshar? no? 

 

I totally agree that this is unlikely however- but perhaps as you said another magic is creating a similar effect. which one though and done by who? 

 

 

 

There is a recent Word of Brandon where someone asks who many parties there were in the Oathpact. He says 11 and names them, The 10 Heralds and Honor. Apparantly Odium did not so much agree to the Oathpact as have is directed against him, In that case it is not possible for violate the Oathpact any more than the Parshendi could violate the Vengeance Pact. Thwart it yes. Violate it no.

 

 Ah ok. right. So still - who would want to thwart it and bring back odium prematurely? or is there another intention? maybe smoking out odium supporters? voidbringers? Would a fake Taln fool the relevant forces to start a desolation? (doesn't seem likely?) Odium himself?

 

The possibility of a fake Taln seems possible however it might have been achieved but I don't see how it would really fool anyone, except perhaps the Alethi, under scrutiny.  Unless that fake so *became* Taln that they believed it themselves. Like that STNG episode with a fake klingon Kayless....

 

I digress.

 

To really fool anyone/everyone (including other heralds), the level of skill required to make such a fake would be pretty high indeed, I think.

 

 

 

I believe we are going to see (in the next few books) at least one person claiming to be a Herald who is in reality an agent of Odium (or similar).  They do not have the somewhat constraining requirements of Talenel showing back up, since they have been around this entire time.  Instead, they have to show up at Urithiru and demonstrate whatever powers.

OK so putting my Darkness suspicions aside - perhaps it is the fake Taln who is the Odium agent. If he is fake - why? How? Who would have the ability to do this? Who does it benefit? 

 

Seems to benefit - Odium perhaps? If he fakes it that Taln finally broke - he can somehow thwart the agreement against him and come back even though he should not be able to?

 

Regardless -   if he is fake - he doesn't seem to think so, though he is confused. And this is the best kind of fake, which again points to high skill on the part of whoever created the fake. 

 

If he is a fake.  Arrrgh.