Syl: "But I've helped men kill before."

[aheerema he/him]

I'm curious to find out what others think about this...
 

Way of Kings, Chapter 43:

“What is wrong with you?” she asked softly.
Kaladin just kept climbing down.
“You should be happy. You survived the storms. The other bridgemen were so excited.”
“I itched to fight that soldier,” Kaladin whispered.
Syl cocked her head.
“I could have beaten him,” Kaladin continued. “I probably could have beaten all four of them. I’ve always been good with the spear. No, not good. Durk called me amazing. A natural born soldier, an artist with the spear.”
“Maybe you should have fought them, then.”
“I thought you didn’t like killing.”
“I hate it,” she said, growing more translucent. “But I’ve helped men kill before.”
Kaladin froze on the ladder. “What?”
“It’s true,” she said. “I can remember it, just faintly.”
“How?”
“I don’t know.” She grew paler. “I don’t want to talk about it. But it was right to do. I feel it.”

 
Question: How is it possible that Syl helped men kill before?
 
From Pattern, we now know that almost no spren survived the Recreance:
 

Words of Radiance, Chapter 75:
 
"Surely there are others among you, though," Shallan said. "Older Cryptics? Who were alive back then?"
"No," Pattern said softly. "None who experienced the bond."
"Not a single one?"
"All dead," Pattern said. "To us, this means they are mindless- as a force cannot truly be destroyed. These old ones are patterns in nature now, like Cryptics unborn. We have tried to restore them. It does not work. Mmmmm. Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . ."
Stormfather. Shallan pulled the blanket around her closer. "An entire people, all killed?"
"Not just one people," Pattern said, solemn. "Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance."
"No wonder you're certain I will kill you."
"It is inevitable," Pattern said. "You will eventually betray your oaths, breaking my mind, leaving me dead - but the opportunity is worth the cost...."

 
Hypothesis:
 
1.  Syl is a pre-recreance spren who survived.
2.  Syl remembers helping men kill before as part of a collective spren memory.
3.  Syl has begun the bonding process with other potential surgebinders, but either they've abandoned her before reaching the shardblade stage, or they've died.
 
 
Discussion:
 
1.  Syl is a pre-recreance spren who survived.
 
I've got very little for or against this one. We know she is the only (or at least the first) Honorspren to disobey the Stormfather, that she refers to the Stormfather as her father, and that the Stormfather is very protective of her, calling her "My beloved one." But I don't feel like any of that background is particularly relevant.
 
Supporting arguments:

This WoB:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836#26
 
QUESTION
Okay, so Syl, she's been around for at least a few thousand years, right?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes.

 

So how long ago was the Recreance? Maybe this is an open and shut case, just based on that quote?

Counter argument: 

Syl's age could be independent of her consciousness (as in unborn Spren, forces, that cannot truly be created or destroyed), or she could have spent thousands of years in the cognitive realm.

 

2.  Syl remembers helping men kill before as part of a collective spren memory.
 
Supporting Argument:
Syl has already said that all spren are basically the same.

Way of Kings: Chapter 17

“People are discord,” Syl said.
“What does that mean?”
“You all act differently and think differently. Nothing else is like that—animals act alike, and all spren are, in a sense, virtually the same individual. There’s harmony in that. But not in you—it seems that no two of you can agree on anything. All the world does as it is supposed to, except for humans. Maybe that’s why you so often want to kill each other.”
“But not all windspren act alike,” Kaladin said, opening the box and tucking some of the bandages into the pocket he’d sewn into the inside of his leather vest. “You’re proof of that.”
“I know,” she said softly. “Maybe now you can see why it bothers me so.”

 

 

Counter Arguments:

Syl herself notices that she is different than the windspren. Perhaps her statement regarding unity only applies to non-Bonding spren? Of the Bonding spren we've seen, we've mostly seen individual spren, the only other counter I can think of is Wyndle (Lift's spren) since he has referred to the Circle. Wyndle's wish was to bond with some nice old gardener, but his opinion was countered which indicates individuality. This argument depends on the Circle being other growth/vine/garden/same-as-Wyndle-spren.

 

If all spren share a collective memory, then Pattern should have memories of what happened pre-Recreance?

 

Speculatively, when there were many spren, you'd assume that they would have individual experiences with their bonded surgebinders...

 

 

3.  Syl has begun the bonding process with other potential surgebinders, but either they've abandoned her before reaching the shardblade stage, or they've died.

 

I don't really have anything of substance for or against this, except the previous WoB that she's been around for thousands of years, which has the same counters as previously mentioned in 1.

 

Can a spren only bond with one person? Can they begin bonding with one person, then begin a new bond with someone else if it doesn't pan out? What if Kaladin died before regaining his bond with Syl, could someone else have revived her? I have nothing on this.

I do think it could be possible that if a Surgebinder is killed, that their Spren would survive. Purely speculation though. This might actually be a pretty good question for Brandon.

 

 

Conclusion:

Nothing conclusive! But I'm going to go with 3. I think she's either a survivor of a dead radiant, or an incomplete failed prior bond.

 

These are my thoughts. Do you have a favourite answer, or another idea! Shoot me down, I dare you...

 

 

(Edit: Conclusion based on thread input)

Conclusion:

 

The general consensus is that Syl is a Pre-Recreance spren.

 

Her radiant died (we don't know if this is through battle or just old age, especially since we don't know the effects of the Nahel bond on lifespan) and Syl returned to Shadesmar to wait for another bond.

 

The Recreance occurred and she was forbidden from bonding again.

 

She came back through from Shadesmar to bond with Kaladin against the Stormfather's wishes and lost her memories.

 

 

Thanks for everyone's input! There are a few new questions that came from this that deserve their own threads, and that I might pursue unless they already exist. For example, I really like Pathfinder's question about spren transitions.

Edited June 19, 2014 by aheerema

[deadlyDomino]

The fact that she "helped" could be indicative of actually being shardbladey. Or not. Either way, every shardblade is a dead spren, and pattern says thousands died, yet tWoK claims there are nowhere near that many blades ( that we know of). Maybe another way for spren to die?

Good spot though, I'd love to see where this goes.

[Numb]

I think patterns statement is more along the lines of all bonded spren at that time died. One has to remember the different spren have different requirements for bonds which leads to some being a lot stricter in their bonded. Nohadon specifically mentions how picky Honorspren are where as from what we have seen from Pattern, Cryptics are scholars whose purpose is further research(Also the lightweaver epigraph about the man who couldn't progress). It's entirely possible that there were Honorspren that weren't bonded at the time that had bonded before that hadn't found a suitable person to bond with yet. I can imagine it being hard for an Honorspren to bond when there is so much turmoil within the Radiants.

[lookingglass she/her]

I think Brandon said in one of his signings that the spren who were bonded to radiants who died but were still loyal to their bonds could still somehow survive. So maybe Syl was bonded to one of them?

[Shardlet he/him]

Yeah, I think she was pre-Recreance in that her previously bonded surgebinder died.  It seems unlikely that the entire body of KR that ever existed was alive at the time of the Recreance.  I would also imagine that not every KR who fought in the desolations survived.  Beyond that, I would think that some (perhaps many) aged and died.  Some aged KR, perhaps seeing the need, may have released the bond so that their spren could bond to someone younger and more able in order to make a new KR.  I imagine that such occurrences would not result in the death of the bonded spren.

[Kurkistan he/him]

We do have WoB that a non-oath-breaking death isn't harmful to the spren:

 

Source:

Q [7:20]: After a spren has been bonded, what happens if the person it's bonded with dies?

A: It is an emotional event for the spren, but not a damaging one. As long as their oaths are unbroken.

Me: Kind of like if a close friend dies?

A: Maybe a little more personal than that.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Kurkistan

[dyring]

I was gonna write somethng here, but then I saw what Kurk wrote, and well. No point in writing it twice?

 

She simply was not bonded during the recreance, she was bonded earlier . Possibly several times.

[aheerema he/him]

We do have WoB that a non-oath-breaking death isn't harmful to the spren:

 

Source:

 

Excellent, thanks for that. 

But now I'm thinking about Ym's spren, and am sad.

 

I'm curious about how much a Surgebinder's natural lifespan is affected by the bond... I seem to remember someone getting a RAFO on that from Brandon. But there will have been (and will be) unnatural deaths of Surgebinders.

[Khyrindor he/him]

I think that sentient spren like Syl think mindlessness is like the same as dying. Maybe that's what Pattern meant there? As well as the Shardblades of course, but remember Syl saying "If you die, I go stupid again." She was really scared of that when she brought Kaladin that leaf. So I think her (Master? Radiant?) died and she went stupid. 4500 years passed and she bonds with Kaladin, then slowly starts getting her memories back.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Khyrindor

[Chrono she/her]

I agree with Kurk and Shardlet. Syl was probably bonded to a Knights Radiant, who died shortly before the Recreance. She was in Shadesmar in the interim, either recovering from her bonded person dying or waiting for another person to begin to form a bond. She easily could have survived.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I guess as long as the spren isn't at the shardblade level, they just go stupid until they bond another.

[WitSpren he/him]

I agree with Kurk and Shardlet. Syl was probably bonded to a Knights Radiant, who died shortly before the Recreance. She was in Shadesmar in the interim, either recovering from her bonded person dying or waiting for another person to begin to form a bond. She easily could have survived.

I do not have an exact quote here - if you have the book on you please add it (Actually them because I'm sure several spots were involved).

 

I do not agree with this, because she said that when she came, other spren were coming as well because they all felt the need.    Apparently, due to the current approaching Desolution.     It obviously could not be when the KR were formed, because there were many Honorspren then.    And she specifically said that when she came, she was the only Honorspren and she disobeyed Stormfather.

 

So it is pretty certain that she first bonded someone else, then they died (Went Dumb again) and then found Kal.

[Thought]

Since it wasn't said before, allow me to suggest that Syl's helped Kaladin kill before.

 

As we saw with Pattern and Shallan, it is possible for a nahal bond to wax and wayne over time. It may be that Kaladin had a stronger connection with Syl in the past. Additionally, as we see in WoR, much of Kaladin's natural martial skill comes from that bond.

[Chrono she/her]

I do not have an exact quote here - if you have the book on you please add it (Actually them because I'm sure several spots were involved).

 

I do not agree with this, because she said that when she came, other spren were coming as well because they all felt the need.    Apparently, due to the current approaching Desolution.     It obviously could not be when the KR were formed, because there were many Honorspren then.    And she specifically said that when she came, she was the only Honorspren and she disobeyed Stormfather.

 

So it is pretty certain that she first bonded someone else, then they died (Went Dumb again) and then found Kal.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see what your line of reasoning is here. Are you saying that Syl tried to bond with another person before Kaladin but after the Recreance? Because there's nothing supporting that theory.

 

The exact quote that you're talking about is this:

 

"There are others like you," Syl whispered. "I don not know them, but I know that other spren are trying, in their own way, to reclaim what was lost."

She looked to him, and her face now had its familiar form. The fleeting change had been so subtle, Kaladin wasn't sure if he'd imagined it.

"I am the only honorspren who has come," Syl said. "I..." She seemed to be stretching to remember. "I was forbidden. I came anyway. To find you."

Chapter 9 "Walking the Grave", p. 133

 

Here's my timeline for what I think happened to Syl.

Before Recreance: Syl is bonded to a KR. He/She dies.

Syl goes back  to Shadesmar to either recover or wait for a new person to activate the bond.

Recreance happens.

Thousands of years pass. 

The new Desolation is coming. Syl defies the Stormfather and comes to the Physical Realm to look for Kaladin.

Syl finds Kaladin. Bond is created.

 

If I totally misinterpreted your idea, I apologize.

[Seloun]

Technically Syl doesn't have to be bonded to help kill people; she plays 'tricks' by sticking things together, which in the right circumstances could quite readily result in someone dying.

 

I have a paranoid cracked theory that Syl somehow helped kill Tien; that's the event that ultimately results in Kaladin becoming a Windrunner.

[hoser he/him]

Tragic slip?

[BrindIf]

Technically Syl doesn't have to be bonded to help kill people; she plays 'tricks' by sticking things together, which in the right circumstances could quite readily result in someone dying.

 

I have a paranoid cracked theory that Syl somehow helped kill Tien; that's the event that ultimately results in Kaladin becoming a Windrunner.

 

I can't imagine her doing something so contrary to the windrunners oaths.

[IllNsickly he/him]

Since it wasn't said before, allow me to suggest that Syl's helped Kaladin kill before.

As we saw with Pattern and Shallan, it is possible for a nahal bond to wax and wayne over time. It may be that Kaladin had a stronger connection with Syl in the past. Additionally, as we see in WoR, much of Kaladin's natural martial skill comes from that bond.

I had to read this 3 times before i realized that it wasnt a reference to AoL.. hmm...

However, i think its telling that Syl said 'I have helped MEN kill before' (my emphasis). This implies, to me, that Kaladin isnt the only person to have had her intercession.. When and who, i wont even speculate. Every time ive tried to theorize, ive been dead wrong.

My pennies.

[Seloun]

I can't imagine her doing something so contrary to the windrunners oaths.

 

I'm not so sure. The spren don't seem to be bound by the oaths the same way the KR are (they appear to be bound to them in other ways, e.g. Syl can't explain certain things to Kaladin before he progresses far enough).

 

One of the big questions in TWoK is if the spren create their associated attribute or are drawn to it. Note that Cryptics are effectively 'liespren' (Jasnah indicates as such early in WoR) but obviously have no innate capability to lie: they learn it from their bondmates, and they're attracted to lies. Likewise, honorspren seem to be attracted to honorable individuals, and they take on their bondmates' 'honor' characteristic, but it's not really clear that they're actually 'honorable' on their own. The main feature about spren are that they copy things.

[Glaring at the Survivor he/him]

I think the Stormfather at least slightly Splintered (is that the right word) and part of him made Syl.

So Syl did survive the Recreance, but as the Stormfather as opposed to as herself. Then the Stormfather Splintered(?) and made her, along with a few more of that kind of spren.

No reason - in fact, there's probably a bunch of evidence I'm wrong (I can think of some already) but if would be… interesting.

[Aleksiel]

Since it wasn't said before, allow me to suggest that Syl's helped Kaladin kill before.

 

As we saw with Pattern and Shallan, it is possible for a nahal bond to wax and wayne over time. It may be that Kaladin had a stronger connection with Syl in the past. Additionally, as we see in WoR, much of Kaladin's natural martial skill comes from that bond.

 

But she said she had helped men, not Kaladin kill before. I think she would have phrased it differently if what you said was the case.

[aheerema he/him]

We do have WoB that a non-oath-breaking death isn't harmful to the spren:

 

Source:

 

Here's another question though; what constitutes "harmful to spren"? I think he's referring to the "dead" shardblades... but that must not include "going stupid", because otherwise Syl would have all of her memories.

 

What I'm getting at is, if Syl is a pre-Recreance Spren who was unbonded during the actual event, then will she be retrieving all of her memories of her previous bonds, and of the world at those times? Or are those memories gone forever?

[Numb]

It would seem like she would eventually get her memories back since Lift's spren(Wyndle?) seems to have knowledge of edgedancers. She just doesn't remember because she defied the stormfather to come so didn't have the usual protection(Assuming it's usual) for a spren to cross over while retaining memories.

[Aleksiel]

Wouldn't Syl able to remember things easily now that the Stormfather himself accepted Kaladin's third ideal?

[Numb]

I assumed the damage was already done when she crossed over without permission and now it's merely a time/bond related thing. Don't think the stormfather accepting his ideal would matter but maybe it will. We really don't know enough to say