Who the heck is Tarah?

[Guest]

Yes, that was one of the reasons I found that observation interesting. I would have thought of all of the women who tried to court Adolin that there'd be at least one who'd put Adolin's rank (or appearance, or being a full Shardbearer, or...) ahead of any of his (arguably rather minor) personal deficiencies. I was wondering if this was due to the fact the women are mostly high ranking anyway (so any improvement in their station would be small) but I don't know if that really works as an argument (it's unclear how it would work if men 'marry up' or women 'marry down' for example).

 

 

Precisely. If we were talking about two or three women, than I would have understand, but the way it is written, Adolin has courted dozens and dozens of women and all thought that he was a scumbag.... I personally would not have put up with it, but if I really liked the guy, I would have tried at least. I also find it strange young women are not being pressured to make it work with Adolin when he, himself, has a lot of pressure to get married.

 

Must be the blond hair... Altheki women must not be found of it: it is considered impure.

 

 

It might speak well of gender equality in Alethekar (marrying well is not the end-all be-all even for women), it could be just a big fluke (though there seems to be a lot of women involved to make it just a coincidence) or maybe there's some will behind what's occurring (perhaps something Adolin is doing unconsciously). The highborn girls seem surprisingly autonomous in this regard (i.e. no parents pushing them to suck it up and deal with Adolin anyway) which is kind of odd given that Dalinar's willingness to let Adolin make his own choice is implied to be something unusual at his rank (something unusual even at Shallan's rank, at least in their region of Jah Keved).

 

 

Parents must be pushing them..... How many comments do we have about the irregularity of Adolin not being married at 22? I believe it is mentioned all his friends and all other young men his age have been married for a while. He is sort of an unusual case. People appear to get married very young in Alethkar. Jasnah arranged a betrothal between Adolin and Shallan who is 17. Clearly, she did not think 17 was to young to enter such a contract that marriage is. Shallan did not think she was too young either, she was thrilled.

 

From what I understand, ligheyes of higher rank are set up in arranged weddings, probably to secure alliances and such. Somehow, Dalinar got to chose his wife and he wants his son to do the same. Albeit, he did not expect his son would have so much trouble finding one.

 

I would really love to hear about Jasnah younger years... She is an oddity for not having taken up a husband and it would be interesting to read about it. I have so much speculation going on in my head about her....

 

 

 

it makes me wonder if Adolin knows subconsciously that each of his relationships aren't going to work out, and ends up sabotaging them sort-of accidentally. If we knew what Danlan said that caused Adolin to break off that relationship, this would be easier to decide.

 

I think it is possible. I also think he got to a point where he expects every relationship to collapse which was why he was so relieve to be engaged to a complete stranger...  Danlan bad talked him or his family to her friends.... For someone who had every reasons to be with him considering her agenda, she sure did not take care. I wonder if we are going to see some more Danlan...

Edited May 19, 2014 by maxal

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

Re: Danlan...

 

I would think (this is without having read WoR) that she could have made a very calculated decision to date Adolin and then get him to break it off with her.  After all, that does put her in the company of a LOT of other women, and as such, may either gain access to other ladies she may not have before (by virtue of being in the same situation as they) or be overlooked by people she doesn't want paying too much attention to her (like Navani or Jasnah) because she would be viewed as a foolish young woman who lost Adolin's affection...

 

I think she's devious.

[Guest]

Re: Danlan...

 

I would think (this is without having read WoR) that she could have made a very calculated decision to date Adolin and then get him to break it off with her.  After all, that does put her in the company of a LOT of other women, and as such, may either gain access to other ladies she may not have before (by virtue of being in the same situation as they) or be overlooked by people she doesn't want paying too much attention to her (like Navani or Jasnah) because she would be viewed as a foolish young woman who lost Adolin's affection...

 

I think she's devious.

 

 

Well Danlan had an agenda, but even after reading WoR it is not obviously clear what it was. I am still unsure where Adolin fits in all this nor if she still have a role to play. I do not think anyone would think her foolish for losing Adolin's affection, I mean Adolin's failed courtships has become laughing stock around the war camps. Even Renarin teases him about it.

[Aleksiel]

I think Danlan isn't particularly bright. If she wanted to get closer to some of Adolin's ex gfs, she'd be the one to end the relationship, complaining he never listens, but is always ogling other girls. With Adolin breaking up with her, she's basically the only girl he ever ditched. That doesn't work in her favor, just makes her look stupid.

 

I don't completely understand why Adolin's relationship don't last, but we only got his view point. He does't really have much offer, despite what Shallan thinks. To an alethi lighteyed girl, he's not a very good catch. The Kholins are mocked (if silently) for following the Codes, Adolin isn't known for his great fighting skills - he has declined every duel offer and that makes him seem weak, not honorable. Also, the Kholins aren't winning any gemhearts and their reluctance to enter battle is frowned upon. What is more, Adolin is impure, which is the Alethi society is a big flaw. Sure, he has spheres, but so do Brightladies (except Shallan). He has position, but so do they (except Shallan). Yeah, the Kholins are close to the king, but Elhokar can be easily manipulated and has little control over what's going on anyway .

 

So why bother put up with a not very bright half-blood, who follows some ridiculous old-fashioned rules, isn't doing anything for his Calling and on top of that shamelessly looks at and flirt with other girls? 

[Guest]

I think Danlan isn't particularly bright. If she wanted to get closer to some of Adolin's ex gfs, she'd be the one to end the relationship, complaining he never listens, but is always ogling other girls. With Adolin breaking up with her, she's basically the only girl he ever ditched. That doesn't work in her favor, just makes her look stupid.

 

I don't completely understand why Adolin's relationship don't last, but we only got his view point. He does't really have much offer, despite what Shallan thinks. To an alethi lighteyed girl, he's not a very good catch. The Kholins are mocked (if silently) for following the Codes, Adolin isn't known for his great fighting skills - he has declined every duel offer and that makes him seem weak, not honorable. Also, the Kholins aren't winning any gemhearts and their reluctance to enter battle is frowned upon. What is more, Adolin is impure, which is the Alethi society is a big flaw. Sure, he has spheres, but so do Brightladies (except Shallan). He has position, but so do they (except Shallan). Yeah, the Kholins are close to the king, but Elhokar can be easily manipulated and has little control over what's going on anyway .

 

So why bother put up with a not very bright half-blood, who follows some ridiculous old-fashioned rules, isn't doing anything for his Calling and on top of that shamelessly looks at and flirt with other girls? 

 

You are being very harsh with in today, now aren't you? Nothing to offer? He has a highseat to offer and that alone should be enough to draw many eligible young women. He is a full shardbearer on his own, meaning he actually owns his set: he is not using his father's set like many other young men. He is a skilled duelist and everyone knows it. They just like to pretend he isn't based on his track record to refuse bouts. Look how mad they all got when he started dueling again and beat them down one by one...

 

He is impure that is right and many courtships probably failed because of that. The ridiculous rules sent back at least one women, that is true: Janala. There may be others. Kohlin house has fallen from grace, that is right too, but do not forget they are still very powerful.

 

Not very bright? Adolin is not stupid. He is the product of his society that regards men thinking as a bad. He did not learned gliphs because he never thought it was important as most men do. He purposely play dense with Shallan and I suspect he does with other women because he thinks this is what they want. He does show some cleverness and some hability to think when not being trapped by the Thrill. The way he plays his duels is smart, even Sadeas remarks on it. He is not scholar smart, but I do not think he is stupid either. You are being unfair here.

[Aleksiel]

You are being very harsh with in today, now aren't you? 

 

 

I'm not attacking him, I'm trying to see him through the eyes of the average Brightlady he courted and why she would dismiss him so easily. That's why the post sounds harsh, girls weren't nice to him, so I wasn't in order to get the feeling right. 

[Guest]

I'm not attacking him, I'm trying to see him through the eyes of the average Brightlady he courted and why she would dismiss him so easily. That's why the post sounds harsh, girls weren't nice to him, so I wasn't in order to get the feeling right. 

 

I understand. I agree with your assessment then and I agree with Kal about Brighladies.

[kari-no-sugata]

I thought about this a bit: it is surprising that there's been no previous Brightladies keen enough to try to stick with Adolin. There must be some houses who hit trouble and would dearly like some money/prestige.

 

Ultimately, the problem has to be with Adolin - he can't be that unlucky.

 

I'm not going to try to guess why this is happening at a deeper level but it seems to me that Adolin is not going through a normal relationship cycle on the downward slope. At the start things are good but then start to fizzle out. He has wandering eyes and so starts courting the next girl before he's properly broken up with the previous one. So the previous girl starts being ignored and gets annoyed. This pushes Adolin to next girl even more. Previous girl then has little choice but to give up or make a scene and with the way Alethi society is going down that route would likely earn the girl a lot of scorn.

 

So you need a girl who's desperate, persistent, tough, doesn't care much about Alethi society norms... and also enticing.

[Seloun]

So you need a girl who's desperate, persistent, tough, doesn't care much about Alethi society norms... and also enticing.

 

The thing is I don't think it has to be that comprehensive. All the girl would have to be is willing to tolerate Adolin's 'side adventures' (frankly, this is hardly unfounded in history). In return, she's marrying into one of the most powerful houses of the most powerful kingdom in the world, with likely two full sets of Shards to be inherited by her children, with about as much influence as you could hope for. Shallan suggests that just merely being seen as associated with the Kholins might be enough to save her house; while Shallan might be wrong, this indicates what the general perception is likely to be (and despite her inexperience, it seems clear that she's actually quite politically astute).

 

And it's not just the girl, it's her family. Again, it feels like the Highprinces and the high ranked brightlords are surprisingly tolerant given that apparently not one of them has tried to enforce a pairing (no matter how old-fashioned the Kholins may seem, their wealth and power is undeniable - and again, two full sets of Shards). From a political perspective, it seems like a no-brainer unless there are plenty of other viable options.

 

It's not like Adolin is total monster, either. At worst, he might be viewed as weak - but from a political perspective, this is a good thing for the marrying family (e.g. Sadeas controlling Elhokar). It's just really surprising that not one noble family with a daughter came to conclusion that it might be worth indulging Adolin a bit (and again, it's not like the man eats babies or drowns puppies) to have an opportunity to basically win a Highprincedom with relatively little effort. Based on what we've seen, it seems like Adolin would have been perfectly content (if not necessarily happy) with a wife who was reasonably pretty but mostly never put any particular restriction on his actions.

 

With respect to Danlan, my guess is what she said to her friends is that

Dalinar should take the throne from Elhokar since Elhokar is a terrible ruler. This would be consistent with what we see her say in WoR about having to clean up with Elhokar's mess, and establishes that this is a longer term issue instead of something that just came up suddenly. It's also believable that she would assume that Adolin would agree with that opinion (and he might have, pre-TWoK) given that it's very pro-Dalinar, and would explain why she is so angry about Adolin dumping her over that.

[Guest]

I'm not going to try to guess why this is happening at a deeper level but it seems to me that Adolin is not going through a normal relationship cycle on the downward slope. At the start things are good but then start to fizzle out. He has wandering eyes and so starts courting the next girl before he's properly broken up with the previous one. So the previous girl starts being ignored and gets annoyed. This pushes Adolin to next girl even more. Previous girl then has little choice but to give up or make a scene and with the way Alethi society is going down that route would likely earn the girl a lot of scorn.

 

I find it amazing nobody has taken Adolin on the side and explain to him how it is he is having so much trouble. He clearly does not get it. From his POV we see he has some issues figuring out how to behave. He is not being a jerk on purpose. Where is his family to explain him a thing or two? How is it the only person he finds to ask about these things is a darkeye?

 

 

The thing is I don't think it has to be that comprehensive. All the girl would have to be is willing to tolerate Adolin's 'side adventures' (frankly, this is hardly unfounded in history). In return, she's marrying into one of the most powerful houses of the most powerful kingdom in the world, with likely two full sets of Shards to be inherited by her children, with about as much influence as you could hope for. Shallan suggests that just merely being seen as associated with the Kholins might be enough to save her house; while Shallan might be wrong, this indicates what the general perception is likely to be (and despite her inexperience, it seems clear that she's actually quite politically astute).

 

 

We don't know if Adolin would have kept his bad habits once married. I have always thought he was courting so many young women as an attempt to find the right one. Even though, you are right. Some women should be able to tolerate infidelity in exchange for power and money. It happens everyday in real life.

[Seloun]

I find it amazing nobody has taken Adolin on the side and explain to him how it is he is having so much trouble. He clearly does not get it. From his POV we see he has some issues figuring out how to behave. He is not being a jerk on purpose. Where is his family to explain him a thing or two? How is it the only person he finds to ask about these things is a darkeye?

 

My initial guess would be that people assume that this is what Adolin wants:

 

 

“This is Danlan Morakotha,” Adolin said softly to Dalinar. “She came into camp yesterday to spend a few months with her father, Brightlord Morakotha. She has been calling on me recently, and I took the liberty of offering her a position among your clerks while she is here.”

 

Dalinar blinked. “What about…”

 

“Malasha?” Adolin sighed. “Didn’t work out.”

 

“And this one?” Dalinar asked, voice hushed, yet incredulous. “How long did you say she’s been in camp? Since yesterday? And you’ve already got her calling on you?”

 

Adolin shrugged. “Well, I do have a reputation to maintain.”

 

Dalinar sighed, eyeing Navani, who stood close enough to hear. She pretended—for propriety—that she wasn’t listening in. “You know, it is customary to eventually choose just one woman to court.” You’re going to need a good wife, son. Perhaps very soon.

 

“When I’m old and boring, perhaps,” Adolin said, smiling at the young woman. She was pretty. But only in camp one day? Blood of my ancestors, Dalinar thought. He’d spent three years courting the woman who’d eventually become his wife. Even if he couldn’t remember her face, he did remember how persistently he’d pursued her.

 

As far as anyone can tell, Adolin is acting the way he does because it's what he wants to do - he doesn't really give off the impression that he's looking for the 'right' one, but that he's enjoying the chase. Even Renarin makes fun of Adolin's inability to stick to one girl:

 

 

That was something of an abrupt departure for me, he thought. Will they see how uncomfortable the discussion made me? Probably not. They didn’t know him as Renarin did. Adolin liked to be familiar with a large number of people, but not terribly close with any of them. He didn’t even know Danlan that well yet. He would make his relationship with her last, though. He was tired of Renarin teasing him for jumping in and out of courtships. Danlan was very pretty; it seemed the courtship could work.

 

That suggests that even Renarin (who likely knows him better than anyone else) doesn't really understand Adolin's desire to find the right person instead of just playing the field. It's more obvious to us, the readers, since we're privy to Adolin's thoughts, but likely all of his acquaintances assume that Adolin is acting the way he wants to act and the results are what he wants. Adolin can't really admit he doesn't know what he's doing (he's got a reputation of being a lady's man, a great - not precisely a seducer, but someone well familiar with women) without looking pretty silly, so he has to carry on like he knows precisely what he's doing.

 

It's not like Kaladin figures Adolin out, either - Adolin is the one who asks him (and Kaladin is surprised). Most likely Adolin is more comfortable asking Kaladin precisely because Kaladin doesn't have a particularly high opinion of Adolin, yet Kaladin is closer than a lot of Adolin's acquaintances due to Kaladin's role as Adolin's bodyguard (also, the question comes some time after the 4 Shardbearer duel). He's got no face to save when it comes to Kaladin.

 

So no one gives Adolin advice because no one thinks he needs any advice; he appears to be a suave, somewhat spoiled rich kid who likes to flirt more than to get involved, and as far as anyone can tell, that's exactly what he wants. He can't admit otherwise without looking completely inept, so he pretends that he likes jumping in and out of relationships. Since that fits almost everyone's expectation of him, no one has any reason to dig deeper.

[Aleksiel]

If Adolin looking around and courting other girls were the only problems, then he wouldn't be wondering how to keep a girl and why it all falls apart. 

Edited May 20, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Aether he/him]

Permit me to jump in and say that this is both one of the most pertinent and eloquent character discussions I've ever seen on this forum, as well as the most civil one.

 

With that out of the way, I think you're touching on the essence of Adolin's character here. To most readers, he doesn't really jump out as one of the more interesting and deep characters, but is in reality a young man with some very deep seated conflicts in his heart/mind. He is (in my opinion) above average intelligence, but has repressed it somewhat due to societal expectations. He tries to seem like a light-hearted and sociable fellow, and while he might have preferred this in the past, recent events have made him realise that he needs closer friends and associates - both from a political and strategic standpoint and a social and personal one. As has been pointed out, I believe most of his love troubles stem from this as well. He hasn't (previously) been terribly interested in whole-heartedly pursuing a romantic interest, and his various flames in term do not seem to have taken Adolin himself terribly seriously. While someone should have at least tried to stick to him a bit more stubbornly, I think that no one has done so so far was mostly because the Kholins already have been social pariahs for some time by the start of the Way of Kings. And in Alethkar, perception and social standing is everything.

 

EDIT: minor grammar.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Aet-her

[Gabriele she/her]

He's looking for a suitable wife instead of just falling in love with a girl. So he has some sort of checklist starting with 'pretty' because he needs to start somewhere and he's a young man, after all but then doesn't really know how to proceed. His heart hasn't been involved in any of those dates. The solution would, imho, be either an arranged marriage in the mode of his society, or him finally falling in love when he doesn't look. So he could perhaps make the marriage with Shallan work because she would indeed be a good partner/wife only to find Shallan has other ideas, or he's going to fall in love with some totally unsuitable girl. Authors are evil creatures.

[kari-no-sugata]

We don't know if Adolin would have kept his bad habits once married. I have always thought he was courting so many young women as an attempt to find the right one. Even though, you are right. Some women should be able to tolerate infidelity in exchange for power and money. It happens everyday in real life.

 

As I suggested in my previous post, I think part of the problem is Adolin switches to next girl before even breaking up properly with previous girl. So even if previous girl is desperate there's not much she can do if she's repeatedly ignored... and I suspect Adolin would react quite badly to the more desperate girls.

 

Which leads to the obvious question, why doesn't anyone "go for broke"? (eg physically seduce him)

 

I think the main answer to this is that it's not a one-sided bet. Imagine you're the father of an eligible girl but your house is facing potential ruin - so you push your daughter at Adolin and hope. But, it doesn't work out. Do you go for broke, possibly "ruining" your daughter or do you marry her off to someone "safe" (eg an ally or someone you're in debt to)? Even if the father's a fool he would likely have some friends/family to point out that there's safer alternatives. Also, looking too desperate is basically calling attention to your difficulties - there is a very real risk it could make things worse. And precisely because the Kholins have very high social standing there's very big risks in angering them. I suspect quite a few are privately terrified of Dalinar, even if his reputation has suffered in more recent times.

[Guest]

So no one gives Adolin advice because no one thinks he needs any advice; he appears to be a suave, somewhat spoiled rich kid who likes to flirt more than to get involved, and as far as anyone can tell, that's exactly what he wants. He can't admit otherwise without looking completely inept, so he pretends that he likes jumping in and out of relationships. Since that fits almost everyone's expectation of him, no one has any reason to dig deeper.

 

Your analysis makes sense. It is true Adolin comes out as a rich spoiled kid to the outside eye. It is only when we get to read him from the inside or when he does unexpected things such as rescuing prostitutes, going buddy-jail with a darkeye, giving out shards to a darkeye, befriending a darkeye, laughing with darkeyes kids that you see who he really is. Most people probably do not get it nor try to get it. Even Renarin does not seem to understand his brother as well as he thinks.

 

I am just surprised by it all. I mean, if he were my son, I would have talked to him a long time ago, but I guess you can't really expect Dalinar of all people to do just that. Renarin is not that verse on social relationships and he does not seem to grasp the problem very well. The only one who could have nailed the issue is Navani, but she seems distant with her nephews.

 

However, I was quite surprised he admitted whole-heartly to Kaladin his whole dilemma with women... On two occasions, he goes babbling to Kal about how is not so good with women and how it distressed him. I found that surprising and then again not. It is obvious he needs someone to talk to, someone with whom he could be himself and not what people expect him to be so, in this matter, I agree with you.

 

 

With that out of the way, I think you're touching on the essence of Adolin's character here. To most readers, he doesn't really jump out as one of the more interesting and deep characters, but is in reality a young man with some very deep seated conflicts in his hear/mind. He is (in my opinion) above average intelligence, but has repressed it somehow due to societal expectations. He tries to seem like a light-hearted and sociable fellow, and while he might have preferred this in the past, recent events have made him realise that he needs closer friends and associates - both from a political and strategic standpoint and a social and personal one. As has been pointed out, I believe most of his love troubles stem from this as well. He hasn't (previously) been terribly interested in whole-heartedly pursuing a romantic interest, and his various flames in term do not seem to have taken Adolin himself terribly seriously. While someone should have at least tried to stick to him a bit more stubbornly, I think that no one has done so so far was mostly because the Kholins already have been social pariahs for some time by the start of the Way of Kings. And in Alethkar, perception and social standing is everything.

 

I think you nailed him pretty well there. I, for one, have been arguing from time to time that Adolin is not as stupid as he appears to be. He is uneducated, true, but not because he has no potential, mostly because he never really tried. He played dumb, on purpose, with Shallan by pretending he was not understanding what she was saying. He even drafted some already practiced excuses such as "I am useless at anything that does not involve putting pointy things in objects" or something along the sorts. it is only when Shallan mentions it was not his fault he was not educated in such things that he started to opened up. I bet most young lighteye women prefer their man to play dumb so they could look more smart. On another occasion, when he goes moss hacking with Shallan and Kal, he plays dumb again. He pretend he was not listening or that the conversation did not interest him, but he did listen and he cleverly used the information while fighting against the Parshendi. I feel Adolin is not as confident as he appears to be. There are serious lack in his education and he is afraid to appear dumb, so he plays dumb such as not to commit himself. It's hard to explain, but it's sort of a defense mechanism: you don't want people to tell you you are one thing, therefore you pretend to be this exact thing such as to have to hear it out.... It sounds so clear in my head, but I am really having some trouble reading it down in clear terms. Sorry.

 

 

 

Which leads to the obvious question, why doesn't anyone "go for broke"? (eg physically seduce him)

 

Because the Alethki society is extremely prude? I have wondered the same thing... Drag the man to your bed, make him enticed with you, then tie the knot.... Seams easy, except for Alethki. I guess no house where in debt enough to risk such shame. Besides, Adolin has a strong sense to do what is expected of him: he may not have fallen for the trap.

[Guest]

or he's going to fall in love with some totally unsuitable girl. Authors are evil creatures.

 

How sweet would it be if he truly fell in love with a lowly darkeye women? Oh Dalinar's face............

[TheDarkDesperado he/him]

In short this is something we could use some WoB on, to tell the truth I didn't catch this until it was pointed out to me, just kinda slipped my mind.

[Vanavel she/her]

I feel Adolin is not as confident as he appears to be. There are serious lack in his education and he is afraid to appear dumb, so he plays dumb such as not to commit himself. It's hard to explain, but it's sort of a defense mechanism: you don't want people to tell you you are one thing, therefore you pretend to be this exact thing such as to have to hear it out.

 

Excellent point. He clearly is intelligent, but doesn't act that way, and this explanation fits well. At the same time, I don't think he is as intelligent as Shallan or Kaladin; although, perhaps I am being taken in by his act as well!

 

As for Adolin's behavior with women, I think it is a mix. I imagine he has a vague idea of wanting to settle down with the right woman, especially as more and more of his courtships fail. At the same time, he is - or has been - content moving from one shallow relationship to the next for a long time, and he does not understand women. For example, he doesn't even realize that checking out the waitress while on a date is a bad idea! Maybe both of these (ignorance and serial shallow relationships) stem from the lack of healthy marriages in his life to act as role models. His parents were apparently happy, but his mother died years ago and his father never speaks of her anymore. Meanwhile, his aunt and uncle clearly had less than an ideal marriage, at least in Navani's eyes. 

[Aleksiel]

Another thing that probably is part of what ruins Adolin's relationships, is the idea of the right person, with whom everything will magically be right. When you are still young and inexperienced, it's easy to fall into the trap of having the unrealistic expectations that with the right person everything will automatically be perfect, and if there's some issue you have to work on, then the said person wasn't the right one. So, when something in Adolin's current relationship drags, he immediately starts looking (may be unconsciously) for another girl.

 

Adolin seems to me as the kind of person who naively believes good relationships just happen. Take a look at his so called friends, he hasn't put much effort into building strong and lasting friendships either. Despite his public image, he keeps away from other people and doesn't let them really know him.

[Guest]

Excellent point. He clearly is intelligent, but doesn't act that way, and this explanation fits well. At the same time, I don't think he is as intelligent as Shallan or Kaladin; although, perhaps I am being taken in by his act as well!

 

As for Adolin's behavior with women, I think it is a mix. I imagine he has a vague idea of wanting to settle down with the right woman, especially as more and more of his courtships fail. At the same time, he is - or has been - content moving from one shallow relationship to the next for a long time, and he does not understand women. For example, he doesn't even realize that checking out the waitress while on a date is a bad idea! Maybe both of these (ignorance and serial shallow relationships) stem from the lack of healthy marriages in his life to act as role models. His parents were apparently happy, but his mother died years ago and his father never speaks of her anymore. Meanwhile, his aunt and uncle clearly had less than an ideal marriage, at least in Navani's eyes. 

 

 

There are different kind of intelligence. One does not need to be a scholar to be smart. Adolin will certainly never be a scholar, but I believe he is acting way under his capacity as per social convention and as of fear of being called for it.

 

Yeah Dalinar may be a great role model for many things, he isn't great at personal relationships..... Whereas his marriage was a happy one, he never talks about it. We know it is because he does not remember, but he does remember courting his wife for three years. He does wonder why Adolin jumps from one girl to the other this quickly, but he never takes the step to go and talk to him about it.

 

We could also add his cousin, Elhokar, who is very unhappily married to a depraved women or his cousin, Jasnah, who refused to marry anyone... I agree, there is absolutely no positive role model around him.

 

 

 

Adolin seems to me as the kind of person who naively believes good relationships just happen. Take a look at his so called friends, he hasn't put much effort into building strong and lasting friendships either. Despite his public image, he keeps away from other people and doesn't let them really know him.

 

He does come out as naive at times.... What you say sounds true enough. The only person we have seen open to (and it was in a very small way) was Kaladin and his sword I wonder why that is... No effort? I do not think so... He does try a lot to win Kaladin's friendship and he does try with Jakamav... Another defense mechanism then? It almost seem as if he is afraid of what people would think of him... which usually is a symptom of low self-esteem. A strange thing, really, as Adolin is very confident in many things such as his ability to duel and fight.

[Aleksiel]

He does come out as naive at times.... What you say sounds true enough. The only person we have seen open to (and it was in a very small way) was Kaladin and his sword I wonder why that is... No effort? I do not think so... He does try a lot to win Kaladin's friendship and he does try with Jakamav... Another defense mechanism then? It almost seem as if he is afraid of what people would think of him... which usually is a symptom of low self-esteem. A strange thing, really, as Adolin is very confident in many things such as his ability to duel and fight.

 

Oh, he tries. But it's either not hard enough or not very effective. I remember Adolin thinking how he prefers to know a little many people, but not to get too close to anyone. However, I don't understand the reason behind it. There are, of course, people who are like that, because that's who they are in their youth, but Adolin's old enough to be able to appreciate a few closer friendships. But he doesn't have close friends, not even in the Kholin's army.

 

We've seen him to out with groups of people or a girls he's courting, but the only guy Adolin's put some efforts to know and get closer is Kaladin. Why nobody else before? It's another thing about Adolin that doesn't stand out at first, but puzzles me when I think about it. Nothing in Adolin's inner dialogue made me think he's been hurt and shuts people away as a result.

 

Overall, I can't say we've seen Adolin trying to build a lasting relationship of any sort pre-WoR. 

[bschnebs he/him]

Oh, he tries. But it's either not hard enough or not very effective. I remember Adolin thinking how he prefers to know a little many people, but not to get too close to anyone. However, I don't understand the reason behind it. There are, of course, people who are like that, because that's who they are in their youth, but Adolin's old enough to be able to appreciate a few closer friendships. But he doesn't have close friends, not even in the Kholin's army.

 

We've seen him to out with groups of people or a girls he's courting, but the only guy Adolin's put some efforts to know and get closer is Kaladin. Why nobody else before? It's another thing about Adolin that doesn't stand out at first, but puzzles me when I think about it. Nothing in Adolin's inner dialogue made me think he's been hurt and shuts people away as a result.

 

Overall, I can't say we've seen Adolin trying to build a lasting relationship of any sort pre-WoR. 

 

 

I think one of his problems with friends is that he doesn't really have all that many peers.  Only the children of other High Princes are at his social level.  Of those, how many are friendly towards his house, and how many are antagonistic towards it?  How many would try to make friends with him only to be able to use him to further their own ends.  Given the society that he's grown up in, he has to be extremely careful of who he lets get close to him.

 

As far as friends within the Kholin army, he's going to be their commander.  How easy is to to make friends with somebody that you're potentially going to have to order into dangerous situations, or discipline, or decide on promotions.  You'll always be second guessing yourself on how you treat subordinates that are your friends compared to those who aren't.

 

Conclusion is that.  At his position in society, the pool of potential friends is small, and even from that pool he'd have to be wary.

[Guest]

Oh, he tries. But it's either not hard enough or not very effective. I remember Adolin thinking how he prefers to know a little many people, but not to get too close to anyone. However, I don't understand the reason behind it. There are, of course, people who are like that, because that's who they are in their youth, but Adolin's old enough to be able to appreciate a few closer friendships. But he doesn't have close friends, not even in the Kholin's army.

 

We've seen him to out with groups of people or a girls he's courting, but the only guy Adolin's put some efforts to know and get closer is Kaladin. Why nobody else before? It's another thing about Adolin that doesn't stand out at first, but puzzles me when I think about it. Nothing in Adolin's inner dialogue made me think he's been hurt and shuts people away as a result.

 

Overall, I can't say we've seen Adolin trying to build a lasting relationship of any sort pre-WoR. 

 

He did say that, but it was after being a gruesome conversation where his "friends" took absolutely no notice on how badly it made him feel. Still, he does not try to defend his point-of-view whenever he is in a social event. He is very vocal to Dalinar about pretty much everything, but to his peers? He says nothing and boils on this inside. The one time we saw him trying to open up to someone his rank, Jakamav, he gets turn down because he ran out of favor.

 

He is still young, but I agree he should have developed at least one significant friendship. My personal guess is he never was very comfortable with anyone his age, but he only realized this recently. He noticed in WoR that whereas people seem to like him and enjoy his company, no one would willing to stand by his side when it matters. I have always assumed it was why he was drawn to Kaladin, because he had his back when he needed it despite having every reasons not to.

 

As for WoK, he gave me the impression of the nice kid going down with the flow and trying to fit in as best as possible. His father made that impossible, so he got mad at him. Eventually, he realized his father was right and he started drifting away from the main crowd. The questions in his head started shortly after. Before, I think he just didn't give it much thought, but we had clues he was tiring of the never ending doom courtships game.

 

 

I think one of his problems with friends is that he doesn't really have all that many peers.  Only the children of other High Princes are at his social level.  Of those, how many are friendly towards his house, and how many are antagonistic towards it?  How many would try to make friends with him only to be able to use him to further their own ends.  Given the society that he's grown up in, he has to be extremely careful of who he lets get close to him.

 

As far as friends within the Kholin army, he's going to be their commander.  How easy is to to make friends with somebody that you're potentially going to have to order into dangerous situations, or discipline, or decide on promotions.  You'll always be second guessing yourself on how you treat subordinates that are your friends compared to those who aren't.

 

Conclusion is that.  At his position in society, the pool of potential friends is small, and even from that pool he'd have to be wary.

 

Well, there seem to be quite a few young people on the Shattered Plains... Adolin courted at least dozens and dozens of girls so we can assumed there were an equivalent number of young men for him to buddy with. His father's army has many officers whom have sons his age, like captain Kahl. There are no reasons why he couldn't be friends with such a person even if he ranks slightly lower than him.

 

He did not give me the feeling of someone who was careful with his relationships, but more of someone who was holding back, someone who was not comfortable sharing. I have seen people behaving this way in real life, people who are extremely friendly, who get invited to all the party, but who, somehow, have no close friends. From my experience, they usually are people who are good at fitting in, at behaving like the crowd expects them to, but in doing so are going against their nature. They are afraid to show their true colors for fear of not fitting in anymore if they did.

[Vanavel she/her]

I think one of his problems with friends is that he doesn't really have all that many peers.  Only the children of other High Princes are at his social level.  Of those, how many are friendly towards his house, and how many are antagonistic towards it?  How many would try to make friends with him only to be able to use him to further their own ends.  Given the society that he's grown up in, he has to be extremely careful of who he lets get close to him.

 

As far as friends within the Kholin army, he's going to be their commander.  How easy is to to make friends with somebody that you're potentially going to have to order into dangerous situations, or discipline, or decide on promotions.  You'll always be second guessing yourself on how you treat subordinates that are your friends compared to those who aren't.

 

Conclusion is that.  At his position in society, the pool of potential friends is small, and even from that pool he'd have to be wary.

 

I imagine that there are elements of a lot of these theories that are working together to create his situation. Nevertheless, bschneb's point may have more weight than we would initially think. Alethi society is far more hierarchical than most modern, Western ones, so differences of rank would be much more significant for them. Even in our world where few societies are so stratified anymore, there is a noticeable difference in how people act when they live in a more hierarchical culture.

 

Also, men tend to have fewer deep relationships than women as a general rule (not based on stereotypes, but on data), and he might be a little more toward the end of that spectrum, whether because of his personality or because of his circumstances. 

 

Besides, siding with his dad deepened the psychological and social gap between him and those around him, as noted above. Maybe part of why he reached out to Kaladin was because Kaladin was one of the only other men around his age who was also on Dalinar's side.