Who the heck is Tarah?

[Numb]

I might be mistaken about it being in the Annotations, but I still find it rather likely. Brandon is subtle about these things, and even if there is no scenes where they wake up naked together before after they were married, they still could have been sexually active. Remember that there is really no direct indications that Alrianne and Breeze had slept together either, other than OMG THEY SLEPT IN THE SAME BED! And even that probably wouldn't convince most Sharders unless it wasn't mentioned specifically in the Annotations.

 

It could have happened. I just find it unlikely as it seems out of character for Vin. Not premarital sex but sex at the time. She didn't view herself as a woman before the marriage. She was merely a tool there to keep Elend alive while he built his government. That whole character arc was about her finally coming to grips with who she is. I don't think it mattered to her if she had sex pre or post marriage. It's just the marriage was her decision to accept herself and love for Elend.

 

While I think Sanderson is fine with writing premarital sex, I just don't think Vin and Elend were actually engaging in it. I could be completely wrong and you are 100% correct. It would work I guess and to some extent makes sense. Just in my fantasy land it never happened. Personally I don't have an issue with premarital sex.

[Aether he/him]

It could have happened. I just find it unlikely as it seems out of character for Vin. Not premarital sex but sex at the time. She didn't view herself as a woman before the marriage. She was merely a tool there to keep Elend alive while he built his government. That whole character arc was about her finally coming to grips with who she is. I don't think it mattered to her if she had sex pre or post marriage. It's just the marriage was her decision to accept herself and love for Elend.

You make some good arguments. I think, in the end, it depends on how Vin feels about sex. She is together with Elend at this point (though grows somewhat distant towards the end of her arc), and though she hasn't fully given in to her love for him at this point, she trusts him enough to sleep next to him, and unless she is super sensitive about sexual relations (and having grown up on the streets, I am not sure she would be), and I don't think it would be that much of stretch to bump uglies as well.

 

In the end, I don't think we can say for sure either way. We're going to need a WoP or WoB on this.

[Guest]

I don't have a quote to prove it, but I think that only the king is 1st nahn, leaving Dalinar and the other highprinces at 2nd, Amaram at 3rd. Adolin as heir is either 2nd or 3rd, if I'm correct. Is there any mention of Renarin's rank?

 

I always assumed they had the same rank... In WoK, Adolin wants to go listen in to the discussion between his father, the king and Sadeas. Renarin is against it and Adolin coaxes him to do it in saying something along the lines: "Why, we are of high enough rank to be there". It is not much evidence, but I took it from there they had the same rank, ie 2nd or 3rd. Knowing Amaram is third, second is more likely for Adolin and Renarin.

[happyman he/him]

Just popping in to come with some examples of extramarital sexual shenanigans:

• Dalinar and Navani
• Alrianne and Breeze
• Jewel and Clod (No, seriously!)
• Siri and Susebron (Sure, the latter is a god, the former not so much)
• Vin and Elend (before they got married)
• Plus prostitutes from the Way of Kings and Words of Radiance.

EDIT: I forgot Siri and Susebron were married. And while Jewel is mentally unstable, she was not married!

 

Vin and Elend almost certainly were not intimate before marriage.  I base this partly on comments in the annotations about Elantris (where Brandon makes it clear that Raoden and Sarene were not intimate before marriage and calls himself an admitted prude for doing it that way), and the fact that Vin and Elend were so very obviously honeymooning on their trip north before they turn around.  The arguments "for" seem to be mostly of the variety "But I want them to have!", which is not logically very compelling and in addition does not appreciate Brandon's background.

 

On top of that, it sounds like a seriously big decision for Vin to make, all things considered.  She's not a casual person, know what I mean?  I think we would have seen more of it, especially for somebody with trust issues and a lifetime being (quite rationally) afraid of rape.  (And don't say we didn't see it.  Her decision to marry Elend was the scene where we saw her commit, with all that comes with it.)  Combine this Elend's first sexual experience and I can see both of them being rationally gun-shy.

 

None of which says that this was ignored in the books.  Vin's mother was a prostitute.  Elend's first experience with sex was with a prostitute arranged by his father; said prostitute was then executed to avoid even the chance of children.  Straff Venture essentially kept a harem of illegal wives to produce allomantic children, and he had very high standards.  Those aren't particularly good examples of extramarital affairs, but they all exist in Mistborn, let alone later books.

 

Allriene and Breeze and Jewel's and Clod, on the other hand, were confirmed to be in sexual relationships in the annotations.  Those are canon by most standards.

 

I'm not sold on Dalinar and Navani.  That would make a right mess of things, politically, if she got pregnant.  I'll have to reread Words of Radiance to see if I can spot it.

[Aether he/him]

I'm not sold on Dalinar and Navani.  That would make a right mess of things, politically, if she got pregnant.  I'll have to reread Words of Radiance to see if I can spot it.

The chapters referenced in the previous posts suggest rather firmly that they are in fact having sexual relations. And Navani is around 55 years old in Earth years. Unless Rosharan physiology is significantly different than ours, she should be past her menopause.

 

I am not a 100% convinced on my own position on Vin and Elend. Brandon's a prude and doesn't say much about these things directly, correct, but they are happening behind the scenes. Whether they are or not in Vin and Elend's case is not clear either way. And I don't agree that the arguments for is basically a "but I want them to" argument. The arguments as formulated primarily by me might be weak, but I am not sure that it is quite so certain that Vin would be quite as prudish as you suggest. She was already sleeping next to him - which would be a huge deal for her considering her trust issues. I don't think it would be that much of a leap to assume they could be sleeping together at this point as well. Remember, she was more or less committed to him at this point, she was just not willing to marry him out of a sense of self-deprecation. She wasn't worthy.

 

One thing that might change the picture though, would be the story of Elend's first sexual experience. How did it come up? Which book? What was the context of him telling the story, and to whom?

[Aleksiel]

When I read the first Mistborn trilogy, nothing gave the feeling there were sexy pre-marriage times between Vin and Elend (actually I don't remember anything more than a kiss between them, but whatever).

 

As for Dalinar and Navani, what you refer to is so subtle, it's more in your imagination than in-text. The chapter you said to check starts with Dalinar and Navani hugging and him thinking how nice she smells, which proves nothing. He's such a prude I can't believe they'd done more than kissing.

[Gabriele she/her]

Well, Elend is a young man and if they sleep close together,  his little friend will have gotten ideas. Not sure Elend could have talked reason with it all the time.

[Aether he/him]

As for Dalinar and Navani, what you refer to is so subtle, it's more in your imagination than in-text. The chapter you said to check starts with Dalinar and Navani hugging and him thinking how nice she smells, which proves nothing. He's such a prude I can't believe they'd done more than kissing.

"Huddled closer together"? "Holding him"? It's subtle, but they did the nasties.

 

Also, I think there is a WoB on it somewhere. I haven't mentioned it before because I couldn't remember where I'd found it. I'll look around.

[Aleksiel]

Those ideas are for two and Vin didn't express anything that made me think she'd be into it. Just because it's logical doesn't mean it happened. And Brandon saying 'yes, they did it' doesn't transport into in-book action. Since it's still so off-stage, it could have just as well not happened, because it makes no difference to the story and the text.

 

Same with Dalinar and Navani. The hints are so subtle they could mean anything and nothing. It doesn't spice up the story or make it any less lacking sexual elements.  Imo, if it's not spell out, it doesn't count. I understand Brandon's trying to hint for things he disapproves of on personal level, but come on. I'm sure he disapproves of murder as well, that doesn't stop him from writing it,s so why so subtle on other topics...  

 

edit: I don't want Brandon to go all GRRM or anything, but when we need WoB to be certain whether or not something happened, then it was way too subtle.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Guest]

For me, a sexual relationship does not need to be explicitly written to have happened. Being grown-ups into their fifties, I always assumed Dalinar and Navani had sex on a regular basis. Pattern's comment on that regard seemed to confirmed my beliefs.

 

I also always assumed Kaladin had a relationship that includes sexual contact with the woman named Tarah while being in Amaram's army. Morality probably was lower into warcamps and I believe most darkeyes do not share the same restrain we have seen in lighteyes so far. Extra-marital relationships were probably more accepted/tolerated within the lower ranks.

 

On the other hand, I believe Adolin's never had a sexual relationship before. In fact, I believe it would be quite a scandal if he did.

[Left he/him]

:Cough: :Cough: We're getting really off topic guys. Maybe move it to the Keep the Archive clean thread. Also, what if Tarah was a older lady cook/laundry women? I honestly have no idea. She could have been anything really.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Tarah was probably Darkeyes, Do we know if She knew Kaladin the Soldier? Or Kaladin the Slave?

[Guest]

:Cough: :Cough: We're getting really off topic guys. Maybe move it to the Keep the Archive clean thread. Also, what if Tarah was a older lady cook/laundry women? I honestly have no idea. She could have been anything really.

 

For all we know, she was a toothless old woman... Alright. I'll stop here.

[Zea mays]

Dangit, looks like I posted without intending to. suppose I better say something.

 

I have developed my corny headcanon about Terra, which I will cling fastly too until the inevitable moment when further book shutter it. In my head she was a camp prostitute that got involved with Kaladin, but eventually left him to join the ardentia. Why do I think this? Not much really

 

Mainly,  symmetry between Shallan and Kaladin. She had a sort-of love interest that offered to leave the ardentia to be with her (he was lying but nevermind). He should have the opposite experience.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2014 by Zea mays

[Aleksiel]

Kaladin met Tarah (or at least was in whatever relationship with her) after Tien's death and I assumed it all ended before he was enslaved, else he'd think differently in his inner dialogue. Well, at least that's the reasonable assumptions. Knowing Kaladin, he might as well think being enslaved counts as failing and leaving her.

 

I'm gonna allow myself one off-topic sentence: I think Adolin already has some experience, because he refused the offer of the whore in Sadeas camp giving his father as the reason and didn't say he wasn't interested or anything. 

 

I somehow doubt Kaladin had romantic/sexual relationship with this Tarah, it feels like a red herring. She was a woman in Amaram's camp, most likely darkeyed, who Kaladin has held and failed (surprise, surprise!  ), she didn't want him to kill himself training. So, she could have been motherly to him or I don't know.

 

It's just Brandon is so careful to give is a few vague sentences that point towards them having a romance, but never saying it, that I started thinking the romantic assumption to be a red herring. 

[Guest]

I'm gonna allow myself one off-topic sentence: I think Adolin already has some experience, because he refused the offer of the whore in Sadeas camp giving his father as the reason and didn't say he wasn't interested or anything. 

 

Precisely. He gives some vague excuse. He uses "Daddy wouldn't want me too" instead of "No thank you". If he had some experiences, he would just have turned her down politely: he wouldn't have used Dalinar as an excuse.... Come one, a prostitute offers herself to you and your excuse is your father?

 

Besides, the whole interaction between Adolin and Shallan lets me think he has zero to none experience. Confident young men in their twenties with a few previous relationships are not this shy about little things such as kisses nor do they blush because they are holding hands..... However, young men in their twenties with little experience do these things. They may appear confident about everything else, but when it comes to relationship, they suddenly get unsure and shy. I have happened to meet both kinds in my younger years

 

After all, he is an unmarried prince famous for short shallow relationships. He obviously has never been in love before Shallan either. I doubt highranked ligheyes do the thing after a few days of courting.... He would be quite a scandal if he did and most likely all his failed relationships would no doubt use it against him. They tease him enough as it is.

[Aleksiel]

....

 

May be it's because he doesn't expect such behavior from a Brightlady? I just fail to imagine a young boy in a camp full of whores to not be... um, curious enough to try. Anyway, I agree you're most likely right based on his behavior.

 

For a character who is supposed to be a ladies man, Adolin certainly doesn't have that set of mind in his own PoV. I find it odd how little he thinks about girls in his chapters, whereas everyone constantly talks about the girls he's been going out with. Shallan and others note his eyes stray towards girls, yet in his PoV I don't remember him suddenly getting distracted by a girl. It just doesn't feel consistent to me.

[Guest]

May be it's because he doesn't expect such behavior from a Brightlady? I just fail to imagine a young boy in a camp full of whores to not be... um, curious enough to try. Anyway, I agree you're most likely right based on his behavior.

 

Curious yes, but Adolin is a prince. Whores are beneath him. It wouldn't even cross his mind to go to one as whores are seen as a thing of lowly darkeyes.. His father's soldiers probably hold their tongues whenever he is around.

 

 

 

For a character who is supposed to be a ladies man, Adolin certainly doesn't have that set of mind in his own PoV. I find it odd how little he thinks about girls in his chapters, whereas everyone constantly talks about the girls he's been going out with. Shallan and others note his eyes stray towards girls, yet in his PoV I don't remember him suddenly getting distracted by a girl. It just doesn't feel consistent to me.

 

I think he is under a lot of pressure in that aspect.

 

On one side, you have the Alethki society who considers it is a blasphemy he isn't married yet. Many people comment on this throughout both books and often to his face.

 

On the other side, you have Dalinar who does not want to put pressure on him, but at the same time tells his son he needs to find true love... thus putting even more pressure on him.

 

In the middle, you have a very confused young man who attracts women like honey attracts bees, but that doesn't know what to do with them. Each time he is with one, he wonders if she is the right one. Each time he sees another, he wonders if she would not be better for him than the current one. Each time he dates a girl, he goes on with the same speech and each time, the girl fawns over him, but is not really interested in him as a person. All ligheyes girls are probably secretly betting on who would get Adolin to tie the knot as he is a very eligible bachelor, a prince, heir to a highseat and a kingdom. 

 

He doesn't talk about the girls because he didn't love any of them, until Shallan. She is the first one to beyond his superficial speech, to ask personal questions and to make him, spontaneously laugh.

 

Bottom line is Adolin issues with girls have a lot to do with the pressure he has and the lack of older women in his life. I seriously doubt Dalinar would have the "girl talk" with his son and his mother is dead. Navani should have taken up that role, but it seemed she chose not to be involved until recently.

[Aleksiel]

...

 

I was thinking more in the lines of how Adolin is said to basically look at any pretty lighteyed girl, yet he hasn't ever described even one random girl he passed by in his PoV. 

Edited May 17, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Guest]

I was thinking more in the lines of how Adolin is said to basically look at any pretty lighteyed girl, yet he hasn't ever described even one random girl he passed by in his PoV. 

 

Maybe because he already dated them all? He did look at Shallan the fist time he sees her.

[Gabriele she/her]

 

I think he is under a lot of pressure in that aspect.

 

[...and the rest of that post]

Upovted because you said what I wanted to say but were faster.

[Seloun]

While this continues to derail the thread, Adolin actually spends a lot of time thinking about his relationships. Part of the confusion might be that this is much less the case in WoR, mainly because it occurs immediately after Sadeas's betrayal and there isn't really time for Adolin to get involved with anyone (besides the obvious).

 

But in TWoK he spends almost every one of his chapters thinking about his relationships (note - the following are AFAIK all of the sections where Adolin has a POV, i.e. where the text reads something like 'Adolin thought' and is part of a 'Dalinar' chapter):

 

Ch 12:

 

 

Adolin twisted one of his hogshide reins around his finger while he sat astride his horse, awaiting the next batch of scout reports. He’d managed to get his mind off his father and Sadeas, and was instead contemplating just how he was going to explain his falling out with Rilla in a way that would earn him some sympathy with Janala.

(plus others)

 

Ch 13: - none, life or death struggle against giant monstrosity does take precedence, even for Adolin

 

Ch 15: - Indirectly:

 

 

Metal footsteps ground on the rock behind. Adolin turned, then nodded in respect as the king approached, still wearing his golden Shardplate, though he’d removed the helm. He was several years Adolin’s senior, and had a bold face with a prominent nose. Some said they saw in him a kingly air and a regal bearing, and women Adolin trusted had confided that they found the king quite handsome.

 

Not as handsome as Adolin, of course. But still handsome.

 

Ch. 18: - this one is actually involves Adolin dragging around his current ladyfriend while investigating the broken strap:

 

 

Janala didn’t seem to mind. She breathed deeply of the open air and clung to his arm. She was quite beautiful, even if she did like to talk about herself. Talkativeness was normally an attribute he was fond of in a woman, but today he had trouble paying attention as Janala began telling him about the latest court gossip.

 

Ch 24:

 

 

Adolin grimaced, thinking back to the disastrous walk they’d gone on the other day. Several nice gifts had yet to repair that. She didn’t seem half as excited about him now that he wasn’t courting someone else. “Things are rocky. Malasha seems like a better prospect.” He moved on quickly. “I take it that Roion won’t soon be going on any plateau assault with us.”

 

Ch 28:

 

 

Dalinar had also approved most requests for families to be brought to the Shattered Plains. The officers already had their wives, of course—a good lighteyes officer was really a team, the man to command and fight, the woman to read, write, engineer, and manage camp. Adolin smiled, thinking of Malasha. Would she prove to be the one for him? She’d been a little cold to him lately. Of course, there was Danlan. He’d only just met her, but he was intrigued.

 

Ch 54: - None, but Adolin's POV is only a small, initial part of the chapter where he's worried that he's sabotaged Dalinar.

 

Ch 58: - Adolin hanging out with his friends and Danlan:

 

 

Danlan was also there, of course. She sat on a chair beside Adolin, keeping proper distance, though she’d occasionally touch his arm with her freehand. Her wine was violet. She did like her wine, though she seemed to match it to her outfits. A curious trait. Adolin smiled. She looked extremely fetching, with that long neck and graceful build wrapped in a sleek dress. She didn’t dye her hair, though it was mostly auburn. There was nothing wrong with light hair. In fact, why was it that they all were so fond of dark hair, when light eyes were the ideal?

 

Ch 64: - None, but Adolin only has a short POV at the end as they talk with Sadeas about attacking the Tower.

 

Ch 68: - None, but Adolin has only a tiny POV and this is the Tower battle.

 

So the only section Adolin has where he doesn't end up thinking about his relationship are sections where he's literally in combat and 1) a short POV when he's worried about sabotaging Dalinar and 2) another short POV when he's hoping Dalinar will agree to attack the Tower with Sadeas. Besides combat and his relationship with Dalinar, this is almost all he thinks about.

 

The interesting thing to note is that based on what we see, it seems like in general it's always Adolin's girlfriend that ends up dumping him, rather than the other way around (though it's implied this is often due to his roving eye). There aren't any scene of anyone trying to get back together with him, and virtually every ex-girlfriend he runs into appears to hate his guts (and there are many). In particular Adolin doesn't seem to have ill opinion of any of his ex-girlfriends (suggesting both that he generally never found their behavior particularly wanting, but also that he's unlikely to have invested much into the relationship).

Edited May 18, 2014 by Seloun

[Guest]

 

The interesting thing to note is that based on what we see, it seems like in general it's always Adolin's girlfriend that ends up dumping him, rather than the other way around (though it's implied this is often due to his roving eye). There aren't any scene of anyone trying to get back together with him, and virtually every ex-girlfriend he runs into appears to hate his guts (and there are many). In particular Adolin doesn't seem to have ill opinion of any of his ex-girlfriends (suggesting both that he generally never found their behavior particularly wanting, but also that he's unlikely to have invested much into the relationship).

 

 

I find it interesting that all girls ended up breaking up with him after a few days/weeks... Even if he has roving eyes (and I do know for a fact of unnerving/frustrating that can be), there must be some girls who would be alright with that. I mean, the guy is a prince and for a bonus he is handsome. He has a lot going on for him. Any women who would marry him would have a boost in station. One of them must be willing to put up with that. One should have tried to seduce him even further to stop him from looking elsewhere. I mean, the game of seduction is a very old one and I find it strange nobody ever tried it on Alethkar most eligible bachelor. It seems all lighteyes women are giggling superficial girls who shy away each time there catch proves slightly difficult.

 

From what we know, one girls dumps him because he tried something with her sister. One girl dumps him because he was not listening to her self-flattering enough to her taste and because he has to wear uniforms. One girl dumps him because he booked dinner with another girl while seeing her. One girl dumps him because all of a sudden, she got him.

 

Those are the ones I remember. Some had good reasons, but others were quite shallow. I am going to start agreeing with Kal here, lighteyed women are insufferable.

[Seloun]

I find it interesting that all girls ended up breaking up with him after a few days/weeks... Even if he has roving eyes (and I do know for a fact of unnerving/frustrating that can be), there must be some girls who would be alright with that. I mean, the guy is a prince and for a bonus he is handsome. He has a lot going on for him. Any women who would marry him would have a boost in station. One of them must be willing to put up with that. One should have tried to seduce him even further to stop him from looking elsewhere. I mean, the game of seduction is a very old one and I find it strange nobody ever tried it on Alethkar most eligible bachelor. It seems all lighteyes women are giggling superficial girls who shy away each time there catch proves slightly difficult.

 

Yes, that was one of the reasons I found that observation interesting. I would have thought of all of the women who tried to court Adolin that there'd be at least one who'd put Adolin's rank (or appearance, or being a full Shardbearer, or...) ahead of any of his (arguably rather minor) personal deficiencies. I was wondering if this was due to the fact the women are mostly high ranking anyway (so any improvement in their station would be small) but I don't know if that really works as an argument (it's unclear how it would work if men 'marry up' or women 'marry down' for example).

 

It might speak well of gender equality in Alethekar (marrying well is not the end-all be-all even for women), it could be just a big fluke (though there seems to be a lot of women involved to make it just a coincidence) or maybe there's some will behind what's occurring (perhaps something Adolin is doing unconsciously). The highborn girls seem surprisingly autonomous in this regard (i.e. no parents pushing them to suck it up and deal with Adolin anyway) which is kind of odd given that Dalinar's willingness to let Adolin make his own choice is implied to be something unusual at his rank (something unusual even at Shallan's rank, at least in their region of Jah Keved).

 

After writing the post I realized that there is at least one instance of where Adolin breaks up with the girl - Danlan:

 

 

Adolin didn’t press the issue. Navani knew Jasnah better than anyone else. But . . . he was certainly concerned for Jasnah , and felt a sudden worry that he might not get to meet the girl, Shallan, when expected. Of course, the causal betrothal wasn’t likely to work out—but a piece of him wished that it would. Letting someone else choose for him had a strange appeal, considering how loudly Danlan had cursed at him when he’d broken off that particular relationship.

 

Danlan was still one of his father’s scribes, so he saw her on occasion. More glares. But storm it, that one was not his fault. The things she’d said to her friends . . .

 

it makes me wonder if Adolin knows subconsciously that each of his relationships aren't going to work out, and ends up sabotaging them sort-of accidentally. If we knew what Danlan said that caused Adolin to break off that relationship, this would be easier to decide.

[Aether he/him]

If we knew what Danlan said that caused Adolin to break off that relationship, this would be easier to decide.

(Words or Radiance)

Given that she ended up being in Graves Diagram sleeping cell, I think it likely that she might have bad-mouthed the monarchy, and Elhokar in particular. It is also possible that she might have back-talked Adolin herself, as she seems to have had other motives for dating him than his dashing smile.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Aether