[OB] Anyone considered this?

[BitBitio he/him]

So, reading Oathbringer, I was thinking about Odium. I know he wants to kill everyone and leave Braize, but I feel like he is searching for something. Something that will help him win.

The places it won't be, if it exists at all:

1. Kharbranth, otherwise Odium wouldn't have let Taravangian keep it.

2. Iri/Rira, he has already won these folks over.

3. Alethkar, he has won here already.

Places it might be:

1. Azir

2. Jah Keved

3. Thaylenah

4. Aimiah

5. Natanatan

6. Shinovar

Neutrals:

1. Marabethia, Tashikk, Reshi, Herdaz, Unkalaki Peaks, anywhere else not yet specified.

What it might be: 

1. Honorblades

2. Heralds

3. Spheres like the one Gavilar gave Szeth at the end of WoK Prologue

4. Shardplate and Blade

5. Radiants

6. Cultivation and Nightwatcher

7. Pieces of Honor and maybe Stormfather

 

I'm almost certain Odium is looking for something, something that will let him escape Braize.

Speculation: Perhaps there was an Oathpact made by Honor himself that would contain Odium on Braize. Perhaps a piece of Honor needs to "break" as the Heralds did to free Odium. That, or he needs to kill all the Heralds, obtain all the Honorblades.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Could you perhaps elaborate on why you feel that Odium is looking for something? And if he is, I would guess it is the Dawnshards. We still don’t know what those are. And as for where it is... Aimia. The Aimians are hiding something. We understood that much from the Kaza Interlude.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Odium is perfectly capable of destroying Roshar but he would still be confined to the Rosharan system, preventing him from continuing to splinter other shards. As long as there is an Oathpact Odium will be restricted to the Rosharan system which is why he is opting for a battle of champions as if he wins it will release him.

If there is anything he is searching for it would probably be the Dawnshards. My crackpot theory on the Dawnshards is that they exponentially increase the strength of surges similarly to how sa'angreal in Wheel of Time work. If this were the case then it would be cakes how useful the Dawnshards would be for either side in assisting the war efforts.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

Don't forget the Dawnshards, which may or may not be the cause of humans having to move to Roshar...

I'm curious about Odium's endgame beyond Roshar, and if he Splinters all other Shards... Then what? What kind of god would he be? Would he incite bloodshed and war wherever he went, just to amuse him? Ruin's endgame was entropy and the heat death of the Cosmere, but Odium is a bit trickier to figure out...

[Scion of the Mists]

37 minutes ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Odium is perfectly capable of destroying Roshar but he would still be confined to the Rosharan system, preventing him from continuing to splinter other shards. As long as there is an Oathpact Odium will be restricted to the Rosharan system which is why he is opting for a battle of champions as if he wins it will release him.

The Oathpact binds the Fused, not Odium.  

[Calderis he/him]

Up to this point, we literally have not seen Odium try. He hasn't been searching for anything, he hasn't even been fighting, because he presumed that winning was inevitable. 

The Fused could have taken Kholinar on their own at any time and they didn't. They pressed the Wall Guard, who hadn't managed to kill any of them, to test their defenses for once the Singers arrived en masse to give a victory to the fledgling people. 

They planned to have them all as spectators at Thaylen city to show them that they were unbeatable, and that failed miserably. 

Every interaction between Odium and Dalinar was Odium speaking like a bully, smug in his confidence that he'd already won the fight. 

Thaylen city changed everything. It's the turning point at which Odium was forced to realize that this situation is not what he thought. 

Next book were going to see the Desolation in truth. Up to now, all we've seen is Odium toying with prey he thought hadn't realized it was already dead. He was wrong. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Calderis

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Up to this point, we literally have not seen Odium try. He hasn't been searching for anything, he hasn't even been fighting, because he presumed that winning was inevitable. 

The Fused could have taken Kholinar on their own at any time and they didn't. They pressed the Wall Guard, who hadn't managed to kill any of them, to test their defenses for once the Singers arrived en masse to give a victory to the fledgling people. 

They planned to have them all as spectators at Thaylen city to show them that they were unbeatable, and that failed miserably. 

Every interaction between Odium and Dalinar was Odium speaking like a bully, smug in his confidence that he'd already won the fight. 

Thaylen city changed everything. It's the turning point at which Odium was forced to realize that this situation is not what he thought. 

Next book were going to see the Desolation in truth. Up to now, all we've seen is Odium toying with prey he thought hadn't realized it was already dead. He was wrong. 

I wish I had upvotes to give, because this is how exactly how I feel about the coming/already here Desolation. Odium got really cocky after 4000+ years, so he figured he'd be able to wipe out the humans pretty quickly. Dalinar, through luck/Shardic intervention by Cultivation, completely messed up his plans at the battle of Thaylen City. Plus, because of Venli's efforts, there will probably be a growing movement in the Singer populations to defect from Odium. The year gap between Oathbringer and Song of Secrets (I really want that to be the next book) will give Odium some time to regroup and attempt to gain more control of his armies. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

Not only has he grown sure of his victory due to the answers given above, but consider that he thinks that knows the nature of his enemy. He was sure that Dalinar could be controlled which would work well for him considering that Dalinar could free him Cultivation aside. The power that Dalinar has threw Odium off. He did not think Ascension was possible yet it happened. He will need to regroup and plan for this new development. A real desolation will come now with Odium pulling no punches and pressing and stretching Dalinar's limited resources.

[+robardin he/him]

7 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Odium is perfectly capable of destroying Roshar but he would still be confined to the Rosharan system, preventing him from continuing to splinter other shards. As long as there is an Oathpact Odium will be restricted to the Rosharan system which is why he is opting for a battle of champions as if he wins it will release him.

If there is anything he is searching for it would probably be the Dawnshards. My crackpot theory on the Dawnshards is that they exponentially increase the strength of surges similarly to how sa'angreal in Wheel of Time work. If this were the case then it would be cakes how useful the Dawnshards would be for either side in assisting the war efforts.

But a battle of champions is like an alternate winning move for Odium. Honor advised Dalinar to "vex Odium, convince him he can lose", in order to get him to agree to "a contest of champions". But if Odium could be convinced he could lose the Final Desolation - which apparently would mean Game Over for Odium, or why would he care, he'd just go at it again like all the other Desolations - then isn't that a curious thing for Honor to say, as it implies that Honor himself thinks it wouldn't happen? Why is his advice to "convince Odium he'll lose, so he'll accept the contest of champions", instead of saying something like, "Hey, here's how best to beat Odium: I'm adding a big Splinter of myself to the Stormfather even as he's killing me, so when you bond him, you'll be able to create a Perpendicularity and infuse spheres and he will crem himself when he finds out, and you'll kick his golden chull shell right off of Roshar for good"?

Or does Honor want to arrange a contest of champions for his own reasons (to re-create a Vessel for Honor, even if Tanavast is dead)?

Edited July 16, 2018 by robardin

[StrikerEZ he/him]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

But a battle of champions is like an alternate winning move for Odium. Honor advised Dalinar to "vex Odium, convince him he can lose", in order to get him to agree to "a contest of champions". But if Odium could be convinced he could lose the Final Desolation - which apparently would mean Game Over for Odium, or why would he care, he'd just go at it again like all the other Desolations - then isn't that a curious thing for Honor to say, as it implies that Honor himself thinks it wouldn't happen? Why is his advice to "convince Odium he'll lose, so he'll accept the contest of champions", instead of saying something like, "Hey, here's how best to beat Odium: I'm adding a big Splinter of myself to the Stormfather even as he's killing me, so when you bond him, you'll be able to create a Perpendicularity and infuse spheres and he will crem himself when he finds out, and you'll kick his golden chull shell right off of Roshar for good"?

Or does Honor want to arrange a contest of champions for his own reasons (to re-create a Vessel for Honor, even if Tanavast is dead)?

The whole reason that Odium agreed to the Contest of Champions in the first place is because he was grooming Dalinar to be his Champion from the very beginning. Everything that Dalinar went through in his early years was to make him suitable to be Odium's Champion. Odium knew that Dalinar was gonna fall to him at the Battle of Thaylen City (or at some point, at least), so he was not afraid of entering the Contest of Champions. He engineered it so that he would win by default. Except that Dalinar, with the help of Cultivation, was able to resist and not turn to Odium's side, thwarting his plans. Honor's statement about forcing Odium to take a Contest of Champions most likely did not take into account Odium rigging it before it even began; Honor, by his own admission, couldn't see the future very well. It's highly likely he didn't know that Odium was gonna agree to the Contest of Champions so easily. Dalinar and co didn't need to scare Odium into doing a Contest of Champions because he wanted to do one. He wanted to because he'd rigged it from the start. He thought there wasn't no way he could lose. Now, he's scared because his plan was foiled and has to improvise now.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

The whole reason that Odium agreed to the Contest of Champions in the first place is because he was grooming Dalinar to be his Champion from the very beginning. Everything that Dalinar went through in his early years was to make him suitable to be Odium's Champion. Odium knew that Dalinar was gonna fall to him at the Battle of Thaylen City (or at some point, at least), so he was not afraid of entering the Contest of Champions. He engineered it so that he would win by default. Except that Dalinar, with the help of Cultivation, was able to resist and not turn to Odium's side, thwarting his plans. Honor's statement about forcing Odium to take a Contest of Champions most likely did not take into account Odium rigging it before it even began; Honor, by his own admission, couldn't see the future very well. It's highly likely he didn't know that Odium was gonna agree to the Contest of Champions so easily. Dalinar and co didn't need to scare Odium into doing a Contest of Champions because he wanted to do one. He wanted to because he'd rigged it from the start. He thought there wasn't no way he could lose. Now, he's scared because his plan was foiled and has to improvise now.

I agree with all this, but I'm pointing out that there is an inherent contradiction in what Honor says in his vision. "Convince Odium he can lose" in order to get him to "agree to a contest of champions." But wouldn't the most obvious way to convince Odium he could lose the Final Desolation be to actually threaten to beat him conventionally? Otherwise, not from Odium's actual POV (his plan to subvert Dalinar the Bondsmith into becoming his own champion), but Honor's POV, how is the Bondsmith viewing the vision supposed to "trick" Odium into thinking he can lose? Since it's clear this contest is an alternative to fighting the Final Desolation out to the end?

It reads like Honor anticipated that Odium would likely be very receptive to a CoC... And so was Honor. Each Shard thinks he's got an ace up his sleeve here. We've seen what Odium's was, but what was/is Honor's?

Edited July 17, 2018 by robardin

[StrikerEZ he/him]

24 minutes ago, robardin said:

I agree with all this, but I'm pointing out that there is an inherent contradiction in what Honor says in his vision. "Convince Odium he can lose" in order to get him to "agree to a contest of champions." But wouldn't the most obvious way to convince Odium he could lose the Final Desolation be to actually threaten to beat him conventionally? Otherwise, not from Odium's actual POV (his plan to subvert Dalinar the Bondsmith into becoming his own champion), but Honor's POV, how is the Bondsmith viewing the vision supposed to "trick" Odium into thinking he can lose? Since it's clear this contest is an alternative to fighting the Final Desolation out to the end?

It reads like Honor anticipated that Odium would likely be very receptive to a CoC... And so was Honor. Each Shard thinks he's got an ace up his sleeve here. We've seen what Odium's was, but what was/is Honor's?

Okay first, the Final Desolation was Aharietiam. The current Desolation is the True Desolation.

I don't think Honor knew that Odium would be receptive to the CoC. If anything, he figured Odium would be very unlikely to do a CoC because there is that chance of defeat inherent in a fight between two Champions. What Honor didn't predict (most likely due to his poor futuresight) was that Odium would want to have a CoC because he could manipulate it beforehand so that he would win. There was no need for team Dalinar to threaten Odium enough to take the chance of a CoC because he figured he would win it no matter what. Honor, because of the nature of his Shard (some Shards are worse at reading the future compared to others) and the fact that he was dying when he made the visions, couldn't predict that Odium would want that CoC, and he figured that without the Oathpact or himself around to protect the humans, the CoC would be the humans' best shot at beating Odium. At this point, the Desolation Cycle is basically broken. The Fused will keep coming until they're all destroyed somehow or until is beaten. There would be no way to win the normal way of previous Desolations. The only hope the humans have is to beat Odium in the CoC. 

[+robardin he/him]

Right, yes, I got Last Desolation (the inaccurate Vorinist term for Aharietam) mixed up with True Desolation to get Final Desolation, a term not actually used in the books.

But I still think that it's strongly implied that this Desolation is special (the "True" one), that the Heralds know about it (and presumably what's special about it), and that the Everstorm, which is new to the inhabitants of Roshar (was not a part of any of the earlier cyclical Desolations), is a known component of it (as Honor says it's coming in his visions). That this True Desolation was always part of the rules of the endgame.

And, Honor specifically says that Odium would accept the CoC "if he's convinced he can lose [the True Desolation], as he has before [the regular ones]".

That, to me, implies that if Odium were to lose the True Desolation, he wouldn't get to try again - unlike the cyclical ones - otherwise, why would he ever accept an alternate endplay to the game? That's why I've been mentally thinking of the True Desolation as the True Last Desolation, the Final one if you will, as opposed to Aharietam, which was the false Vorinist "Last" one.

What else would be "True" about this one, if it were not the clincher?

And, if that conclusion were correct, that also raises an interesting question about Honor's directive, because it means he's telling his Bondsmith "heir" who's seeing the visions (the first Bondsmith to do so) that they can't beat Odium conventionally and have to go the CoC route, and it's up to the Bondsmith to figure out how to "vex and convince" Odium that "he can lose" (conventionally)... Which seems impossible to do, since convincing an enemy they will lose a war generally requires gaining a significant advantage in the war, i.e., actually be close to winning it. And to "trick" a Shard into that, like fielding an army doubled up with straw men or something to look more massive? That's a joke, right?

Given that Honor never mentioned anything about what Dalinar did at the end of Oathbringer - "uniting" three realms, reopening Honor's Perpendicularity, etc., - I think Honor may have been nudging the Bondsmith to challenge Odium to the CoC, thinking Odium would accept for his own scheming reasons (though maybe not the detail that that scheme involved subverting the Bondsmith in question), having set up the pieces to groom that Bondsmith into taking more and more of Honor's power through the Stormfather... Perhaps at some point to Ascend to reincarnating the Shard of Honor.

Edited July 17, 2018 by robardin

[StrikerEZ he/him]

@robardin I just don't think this Desolation was ever planned as an endgame. None of the Desolations were ever planned because the Oathpact was supposed to stop all of the Fused, but Honor didn't think about the fact that the Heralds could break under torture. By abounding the Oathpact, the Heralds broke the Desolation cycle. In my opinion, there are no more Desolations as we know them. The current "Desolation" is simply just a war on a huge, planetary scale. The is no more Oathpact to return the Fused back after this, and this battle will keep on going until one side has won. 

I just don't think that Honor could've planned all of what happened. Firstly, he had poor futuresight. Secondly, he was going legitimately insane before he died. And lastly, if he had actually planned all of what happened, wouldn't he have just told the bondsmith to take the CoC? There was no need to tell them to try and force Odium into doing it if Honor knew it was going to happen.

[+robardin he/him]

Not "planned" as in "from the beginning" - I didn't mean to compare Tanavast/Honor with Leras/Preservation in that sense.

I think the Oathpact, and the associated earlier cycles of Heralds vs Fused, was always Stage 1 of the "game" somehow mutually agreed to by Honor and Odium that has rules that bind Odium to Roshar, and presumably at some cost to Honor as well. And this True Desolation is written in those rules as the endgame. Certainly it's not a surprise to Honor, the Stormfather, or the Heralds - they know what's afoot.

I don't think Honor planned on his getting Splintered from the get-go, but when it became clear that was going to happen, created the visions and shoved them along with his Cognitive Shadow into the Stormfather.

I'm suggesting that Honor's instructions to offer Odium a CoC doesn't make sense if you assume his goal is to stop the Desolations once and for all. His goal, I think, is to reassemble his Shard in a new Vessel.

 

 

 

 

 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Not "planned" as in "from the beginning" - I didn't mean to compare Tanavast/Honor with Leras/Preservation in that sense.

I think the Oathpact, and the associated earlier cycles of Heralds vs Fused, was always Stage 1 of the "game" somehow mutually agreed to by Honor and Odium that has rules that bind Odium to Roshar, and presumably at some cost to Honor as well. And this True Desolation is written in those rules as the endgame. Certainly it's not a surprise to Honor, the Stormfather, or the Heralds - they know what's afoot.

I don't think Honor planned on his getting Splintered from the get-go, but when it became clear that was going to happen, created the visions and shoved them along with his Cognitive Shadow into the Stormfather.

I'm suggesting that Honor's instructions to offer Odium a CoC doesn't make sense if you assume his goal is to stop the Desolations once and for all. His goal, I think, is to reassemble his Shard in a new Vessel.

Again, the Desolations were not apart of what happened between Honor, Cultivation, and Odium to trap Odium in the Rosharan system. The Oathpact was not meant to be able to be broken, so the Desolation Cycle was never a part of Honor's plans. I just think you're giving Tanavast way too much credit.

[+robardin he/him]

23 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Again, the Desolations were not apart of what happened between Honor, Cultivation, and Odium to trap Odium in the Rosharan system. The Oathpact was not meant to be able to be broken, so the Desolation Cycle was never a part of Honor's plans. I just think you're giving Tanavast way too much credit.

Why do you say this? If "Oathpact" refers to the oath that the Ten Heralds swore upon being given their Honorblades, the Stormfather says that at least part of the oath that they broke was "to hold back the Voidbringers", and in describing the cycle of Desolations, he says "after each Desolation, the Heralds returned to Damnation... They had been warned that if any lingered, it could lead to disaster." So I would say that the Heralds knew what they were signing up for. The Desolations were absolutely part of the design of whatever compact between Honor, Cultivation, and Odium is binding him from leaving the Rosharan system.

The Oathpact is only one aspect of that compact, that the Heralds are Honor's main pieces even as the Unmade and the Fused are Odium's, and those pieces are free to recruit and marshal lieutenants (Knights Radiant and Regals).

 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Just now, robardin said:

Why do you say this? If "Oathpact" refers to the oath that the Ten Heralds swore upon being given their Honorblades, the Stormfather says that at least part of the oath that they broke was "to hold back the Voidbringers", and in describing the cycle of Desolations, he says "after each Desolation, the Heralds returned to Damnation... They had been warned that if any lingered, it could lead to disaster." So I would say that the Heralds knew what they were signing up for. The Desolations were absolutely part of the design of whatever compact between Honor, Cultivation, and Odium is binding him from leaving the Rosharan system.

The Oathpact is only one aspect of that compact, that the Heralds are Honor's main pieces even as the Unmade and the Fused are Odium's, and those pieces are free to recruit and marshal lieutenants (Knights Radiant and Regals).

Well, think of it like this. Honor designed the Oathpact to keep back the Fused. The Heralds would go to Braize and keep the Fused there. What he did not plan for is the fact that the Heralds were tortured and could bend the Oathpact, letting the Fused come back to Roshar. This event, the start of a Desolation, was a consequence of the Oathpact being "broken" repeatedly. In no way was it an intended part of the Oathpact. 

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, StrikerEZ said:

Well, think of it like this. Honor designed the Oathpact to keep back the Fused. The Heralds would go to Braize and keep the Fused there. What he did not plan for is the fact that the Heralds were tortured and could bend the Oathpact, letting the Fused come back to Roshar. This event, the start of a Desolation, was a consequence of the Oathpact being "broken" repeatedly. In no way was it an intended part of the Oathpact. 

So you think the Oathpact is completely separate from what is holding Odium in the Rosharan system, that Honor created the Honorblades and bound the Heralds to fight Odium's forces in the Fused and the Unmade... To keep Odium from destroying mankind on Roshar?

I don't think so.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Just now, robardin said:

So you think the Oathpact is completely separate from what is holding Odium in the Rosharan system, that Honor created the Honorblades and bound the Heralds to fight Odium's forces in the Fused and the Unmade... To keep Odium from destroying mankind on Roshar?

I don't think so.

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

source

It is completely separate. Odium was not involved at all.

The Fused were Odium's best way to attack and destroy Roshar. Taking them out, in theory, would be a great way to help the humans survive. Honor did not take into account the fact that humans are not bound to oaths in the same way Shards are.

There is something else that is keeping Odium trapped in the Rosharan system, presumably something that involves both Honor and Cultivation keeping him trapped in some way.

[+robardin he/him]

Hmmm... I will have to rearrange my mind around this topic it seems! That's a pretty convincing WoB.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

44 minutes ago, robardin said:

Hmmm... I will have to rearrange my mind around this topic it seems! That's a pretty convincing WoB.

Yeah, that's what's so fun about theorizing about the Cosmere. You can think one thing about the Cosmere and have your entire view of the Cosmere shift in one moment because of some obscure WoB.