*Spoilers* Question about Shards and gender, shattering, and numbering.

[snote]

Okay, I have an odd question that I am not sure has been answered. Please feel free to let me know if I am just overlooking it. But I wonder if each shard of Adonalsium is gender specific. Does for instance the fact that Ruin was Male and Preservation was female, mean that you would have to be androgynous. like Sazed, in order to hold both. I mean there are a lot of ideas about gender roles in Brandon's worlds. For instance in Stormlight, the Alethi are obviously fixated on the idea that women create and men destroy. Much like Ruin and Preservation.
Does anyone know a specific instance of a shard changing hands from a male to female or vice versa?

Another theory I had about the three Shard holders that exist/ed on Roshar. First we know that two were shattered and one is called "The Broken One". I think a death rattle made it clear that "There were three, but now the 'Broken One' reigns!" or something like that. I almost wonder if the other two devised a plan to get rid of Odium by sacrificing themselves to protect the remaining of the 16. Though due to Rayse being a bit cunning, figured out a way to only sacrifice part of himself. Which is why they call him Broken. It feels like Honor and Cultivation came up with the idea of the spren and sold the concept to Odium. Telling him that instead of them fighting on a grand scale for eternity they could wage war inside the heart of each man. The spren became physical manifestations of ideas, yet Cultivation devised a way to get rid of Hate spren and cast them into the "void". Somehow Rayse grew wise to the plan and cut off his hand to save the rest of him, in a sense. I think the Highstorm might be a way for Honor and/or Cultivation to detain Odium in the mean time so that he can't run amuck outside of the Greater Roshar system. Which is what the reply letter means when it says he is contained. It might also explain why Kaladin sees two different 'beings' inside the storm. One is inhuman followed by something else, walking behind the storm. It might be where the Stormlight comes from.

Finally, it seems like each shard is numbered. Like Preservation was 16, which is why there are 16 allomantic metals. The Almighty is 10 which is why there are 10 Heralds. 10 Essences, 10 fingers and toes! I think Odium is 8 or was it 4? I am not sure. I haven't see a large amount of info about him that has numbers in it. Any other numbers associated with the 16? If so, does that pertain to their level in strength? When they broke off from the whole? What about Sazed and his control over two shards. Do they each get a number or is he now just the lower of the two? Oh, and I almost wonder if Cultivation is a combination of the Shard Endowment on Nalthis and another shard. Which is why it has both genders related to it. I just don't know what you add to Endowment to get Cultivation. Sacrifice maybe? Which would actually explain how Endowment ended up with it, lol.

[Observer]

I'll edit my post as I go to make it be more helpful instead of kind of nitpicky and idiotic, but I'm pretty sure Leras (Preservation) was a guy.

It seems like the Shards split into very precise and almost totally even pieces totally to sixteen, likely having something to do with Adonalsium's cognitive influences. But since that's just errant speculation, I'll say it this way: Whatever caused there to be exactly sixteen pieces of shardic power also has a place in shards themselves and in their nature. In Scardial, the humber sixteen, as well as its disected pieces, show up in nature a whole bunch, not just limiting itself to the metals, likely because practically everything on Scadrial bears the mark of Shardic influence. It's just a number than seems to happen whenever they're around. Likewise, there are ten major shardworlds in the cosmere, and for some reason the Shards keep on leaning towards that number. Nalthis, Roshar, and possibly Sel bear the Shardworld number all throuhout their natures. I think it has more to do with Adonalsium's remaining cognitive influences than it does with the Shards themselves.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Observer

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I'm moving this to the cosmere theories forum, it is more relevant there.

 

A couple things though, Leras (the holder of Preservation before Vin) was male, not female.

 

I also sincerely doubt Cultivation is a shard combo, since WoB is that she and Honor arrived together on Roshar, many thousands of years ago.  (And Endowment is still around)

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Leras was a man, actually. So that's an example right there.

Interesting theory.

I like the idea of each having number associations. But it's not just Preservation that had the 16 metals association– Ruin's magic, Hemalurgy, has 16 metals too. And Endowment's system has the Ten Heightenings.

There's no way Cultivation was formed from Endowment. Cultivation's been around for thousands of years, and Warbreaker is less than 300 years ago.

Edit:Serves me right for not refreshing. Dusting Ninjas!

Edited March 22, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Arook he/him]

I thought the 16 thing was supposed to be a sign from preservation to hint at what it was doing.  I like the idea that it has to do with the order of the shards.

 

The thing is the 10 parts thing is used for all 3 shards in the Roshar system. There are supposed to be something like 30 different magic powers (10 surges, 10 void and, 10 others).

[snote]

How dare you all use "the truth" and "facts" to undermine my theories. I know it's just a personal vendetta that you all have against my ideas, just because they are "subjective speculation" doesn't mean they aren't real! (I am grateful actually and thanks for taking the time to help answer my theories and questions. I don't have any real life friends, who have read the SA books, I can bounce this stuff off of. So, it just runs rampant while I am listening to the story.)

Last question, I promise, and I'll shut up with my hairbrained ideas. Is the "Minor Shardworld" in the "Dangerous Women" anthology, Evil? If so, is that possibly the other person Hoid is trying to undermine that's mentioned in the letter and it's reply? I think the name started with a "B". 

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

I believe you mean Bavadin. Yes, he's been described as an antagonistic shard and has reportedly "worked" with Odium in the past (I don't remember where the reference for that is). But he is located on Taldain, where White Sand takes place, I believe, not Threnody where Shadows of Silence takes place.

[snote]

Ah, got ya. I need to read more Cosmere based books. I have only had the pleasure of the Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, and the two SA books. I just wonder what other negative forces are left. I guess it will be a thing to learn later on. I know it has it's own thread but I have always speculated that Hoid is the champion of the Knowledge or Wisdom shard. I know from the way he is talked about and written he is likely a shard holder himself. Like when he mentions that Odium would shatter his soul into a million pieces. Reminiscent of what he did to Honor and possibly Cultivation. It just seems like he is not as omniscient as the other shards.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

WoB says that Hoid is not a shardholder.

[Baine he/him]

Wait, what if (sorry to derail a bit) there's actually sixteen heightenings instead of ten, but it just takes progressively stupid amounts of Breaths to reach them? Didn't the Ars Arcanum speculate on that in Warbreaker?

[Kobold King he/him]

I just re-read the Warbreaker Ars Arcanum, and I found no speculation about any further Heightenings. The AA certainly expresses a great deal of mystery surrounding the upper Heightenings, however, so it would not surprise me to discover that more exist. The Law of Sixteen implies such things.

[Bremen]

Wait, what if (sorry to derail a bit) there's actually sixteen heightenings instead of ten, but it just takes progressively stupid amounts of Breaths to reach them? Didn't the Ars Arcanum speculate on that in Warbreaker?

 

If so the 16th heightening would logically make you the holder of Endowment.

 

Would this mean that Endowment's holder isn't at the 16th heightening anymore since they give away a breath to every person + returned breaths?

 

If that actually works with breaths could one do a similar thing with stormlight?  Absorb enough stormlight you become a shardholder?

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

If Vin could do it with the mists, then it probably works the same with stormlight.

[Bremen]

If Vin could do it with the mists, then it probably works the same with stormlight.

I forgot about that!

 

It should work with any investiture I would imagine, so breaths included.

[snote]

Maybe that's what Syl meant by "Dangerous levels of Stormlight" when talking about Szeth and the use of his Honorblade. If he kept infusing it without a maximum limit. I wonder what would happen. Like you gather all the gems in the world. Throw them in a pit in front of a High Storm. Then go inside the highstorm yourself and absorb all you can. Then go back to the pit and fill up with all the pit's light. You would then become a star. I never thought about what the limits of infusion are. 

Has it ever been made clear what will prevent a gem from infusing during a storm? For instance, Kaladin has held a sphere and it infused, they have been in pockets in inside clothing and infused. The ones inside a house or building don't seem to. I know that tWoK's said that some people will have baskets they throw their spheres in to reinfuse them. I'm just curious. It seems like a huge headache to have to change out all the lights inside the castle before the storm and again after.

[Senor Feesh]

Gonna guess that stone somehow prevents natural passage of stormlight, and this is something to do with why the Shin revere it.

Obviously surgebinders can still infuse stone, as we've witnessed with Szeth and Kaladin in tWoK.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

If the Mists can't go inside then it makes sense that Stormlight can't.

[Senor Feesh]

Huh, I'd forgotten that about the mists. Do we even know why the mists don't cross thresholds? Could indeed be related.

[snote]

I was thinking about it while listening to the WoR part where Kaladin accepts sword training. Something about thinking about whether the sword ardent is Vasher or not made me consider something. What if all the actual power behind the investitures flows through the spiritual realm. That like spren there is a spiritual representation of everything, just in a different plane of existence. So, whatever prevents mist/stormlight from crossing the threshold of stone, is clear inside that realm. Maybe because that's what originally held Adonalsium or what it was made of, and it is still the one thing that can naturally contain it. Somehow sentient beings can as well, because of their feet in all three worlds. So, what that means is people have three feet. 

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

Huh, I'd forgotten that about the mists. Do we even know why the mists don't cross thresholds? Could indeed be related.

 

I've kinda wondered if that has something to do with Identity (and remember we still don't know how Identity breaks down realmatically, ie is it primarily cognitive, spiritual, an even mix, etc).  But if even objects have a cognitive and spiritual aspect in the cosmere, would the threshold of a house be what contains the house's Identity as a home, kinda act as a barrier to intruding cognitive or spiritual aspects just as a door acts as a physical barrier for physical aspects?  Does anyone remember if Shades can cross thresholds on Threnody?   

[Argent he/him]

That like spren there is a spiritual representation of everything, just in a different plane of existence.

 

We know this is the case. Every thing, living or not, exists in all three realms - Shai told us so in The Emperor's Soul.

 

But yes, I speculated a long time ago that the reason the mists on Scadrial can't enter buildings has something to do with the idea of a building, its cognitive aspect. Not so long ago I wondered what defines a sphere being "outside" - because on Roshar spheres need to be left "out" in a highstorm to be recharged, so something has to differentiate. I figured it once again has to do with what is considered a building, as they separate the inside from the outside. A fully enclosed basket hanging on a tree would still be considered outside, and so the spheres inside it would charge up, even if they themselves are never in directly touch with the highstorm. 

Edited March 24, 2014 by Argent

[snote]

I've kinda wondered if that has something to do with Identity (and remember we still don't know how Identity breaks down realmatically, ie is it primarily cognitive, spiritual, an even mix, etc).  But if even objects have a cognitive and spiritual aspect in the cosmere, would the threshold of a house be what contains the house's Identity as a home, kinda act as a barrier to intruding cognitive or spiritual aspects just as a door acts as a physical barrier for physical aspects?  Does anyone remember if Shades can cross thresholds on Threnody?   

I like the idea that the Identity of the house, dictates the barriers it provides to non-physical beings. (When you say "Identity" is that the aluminum based Misting ability. The one that lets you see the person as what they are or see themselves as? The kinda backwards gold ability, it's been a while since I read those books, or did you just mean the regular old mundane 'identity' that is how someone is viewed. I just want to be sure I understand.)

I know WoB says somewhere that Kaladin retains his slave brand, because he views himself with those brands or as a slave. Lopen and Ronarin are able to heal their arm and vision, respectively, because their disability isn't something they view themselves as having or don't define themselves by it. Your premise, whether it turns out to be the case or not, makes me wonder how sentient residents of the Cognitive Realm behave in this regard. Is it like a Soul Caster offers them stormlight as either a catalyst or bribe, then they are able to change their own personal perception. They might also be willing to change to how the human requesting the change "wants" to view them. If that is the case, it makes me wonder if the change is ever denied. That the soul casting is vetoed by the item, just based on what they are requested to change into. So, that instead of a stick, it changes its perceived identity to become fire... or remain a stubborn chull stupid stick!

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Aluminum actually stores Identity in Feruchemy. It's an ability we don't know much about, but it can be used to make your metalminds tappable by others. Aluminum in Allomancy actually is the one that erases your metal reserves, while Malatium, an alloy of Gold and Atium, is the backwards gold you're talking about. The Identity he's talking about is the same as what can be stored in Feruchemy– it's who/what you are, your essential, spiritual self.

[snote]

We know this is the case. Every thing, living or not, exists in all three realms - Shai told us so in The Emperor's Soul.

 

But yes, I speculated a long time ago that the reason the mists on Scadrial can't enter buildings has something to do with the idea of a building, its cognitive aspect. Not so long ago I wondered what defines a sphere being "outside" - because on Roshar spheres need to be left "out" in a highstorm to be recharged, so something has to differentiate. I figured it once again has to do with what is considered a building, as they separate the inside from the outside. A fully enclosed basket hanging on a tree would still be considered outside, and so the spheres inside it would charge up, even if they themselves are never in directly touch with the highstorm. 

First, I apologize for any restated ideas, that I promise you are not intentionally plagiarized, not that you accused me of it. I am honestly just spouting forth my theories as they come back to me or concocting new ones based on replies I have been given here. I enjoy the heck out of the Stormlight Archive books and this is the first time I have been able to discuss it. So, I am having a blast talking about all this stuff. I am positive the bulk of my good ideas are ones that have been given previously by someone else, and my bad ideas come from a lack of understanding or of information about other Cosmere stories. Though, if I do rehash an idea of someone elses, I don't want anyone to think I have intentionally taken their theory or idea and reworded it with my name on it. I really want to get up to speed on what everyone has already derailed or confirmed about the series, so that I may build my theories foundation on rock instead of sand. Cause, whether or not I keep visiting this site. Which I very likely will based on the positive attitudes and unending information. I will undoubtedly continue to think about this story. lol

About the spheres in the highstorm. "What" has to define them as outside though? The Stormlight, the highstorm, or the spheres themselves? I just wonder if the spren of the spheres is somehow involved. Like each realm has an intermediary to the next level. To speak to the glass beads in Shadesmar, Pattern offered himself as a go between or interpreter in a sense. Is there other such beings for the spiritual realm? Maybe something like The Stormfather, or High Spren? Also, what dictates what has a spren and what doesn't? I remember Tien asking a very similar question of his mother. Do spren have spren? Like is there a spren of Syl, since there is both Kaladin and Sly thinking about her? 

EDIT: I had to fix a grammar error that was bothering me. I am sure there are more, sorry.

Edited March 24, 2014 by snote

[snote]

Aluminum actually stores Identity in Feruchemy. It's an ability we don't know much about, but it can be used to make your metalminds tappable by others. Aluminum in Allomancy actually is the one that erases your metal reserves, while Malatium, an alloy of Gold and Atium, is the backwards gold you're talking about. The Identity he's talking about is the same as what can be stored in Feruchemy– it's who/what you are, your essential, spiritual self.

Gotcha, I could have sworn that Gold in Allomancy made you see a weird version of yourself. I thought Kelsier displayed its use to Vin and it freaked her out. Like either who you were or could have been or something? Is that way off in terms of accuracy?