Lightspine Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 I haven’t seen any discussion surrounding this but it seems important. The shin clearly are a different genetic pool than the rest of Roshar, because of their eyes (lack an epicanthic fold I believe). In addition, their culture clearly shows some aspects of a covenant to remain in Shinovar (not walking on stone) as was described in the Eila Stele). We already know that the Iriali migrated to Roshar separately. Could it be that the Shin were the original migrants from Ashyn, while the other Rosharians actually arrived separately? Many of you likely think this but i havent seen any conversations or WoBs about it. 1
RShara she/her Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Yeah they are definitely different. Brandon has definitely implied that there've been multiple waves of migration to Roshar. It's entirely possible that the original "voidbringers" weren't the Ashynites but another group completely. Quote Argent [PENDING REVIEW] How many waves of human populations have migrated to Roshar? So I'm thinking the Ashynites coming from Ashyn, right? Was that just the only humans that ever came as a population? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] It depends on if you count the Iriali? Argent [PENDING REVIEW] That's specifically the one I'm thinking of. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] They came in a separate migration. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Not from Ashyn? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Not from Ashyn. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] From whatever the Third Land was. source
StrikerEZ he/him Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) I think that the majority of humans on Roshar now are descended from the Ashynites that first came to Roshar. Those who stayed in Shinovar/Shin Kak Nish, even if they were not all of the same race, slowly became a homogenous people that we now know as the Shin. The rest of the Ashynites who left Shin Kak Nash to take over the rest of the planet mostly evolved over time to develop the epicanthic folds (it was probably already in the gene pool and just became more prominent because of the planet) and eventually settled into several distinct regional ethnicities. The Desolation cycle probably helped with (mostly) separating different human populations away from each other, leading to more divergent evolutionary patterns. The Irali are just weird. Edited July 15, 2018 by StrikerEZ 1
SzethIsBadAsHell he/him Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Ashynites abbreviated is Shin . So I don’t think they are the irritali. It is the Shin dont Like leaving there homeland. This makes me think they are a stickler for mixing different cultures. I think the Shin are the last pureblood defendants of the Ashynites. Ulim the yellow voidspren has shynlike eyes. I think Ulim was bonded to one long long ago and adopted the eyes because at the time all humans he saw looked like that . Later migrations came, humans mixed with herdazians and Horneaters who were already here . The iriali was mixed in and u have what is currently Roshar!
StrikerEZ he/him Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 33 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said: Ashynites abbreviated is Shin . So I don’t think they are the irritali. It is the Shin dont Like leaving there homeland. This makes me think they are a stickler for mixing different cultures. I think the Shin are the last pureblood defendants of the Ashynites. Ulim the yellow voidspren has shynlike eyes. I think Ulim was bonded to one long long ago and adopted the eyes because at the time all humans he saw looked like that . Later migrations came, humans mixed with herdazians and Horneaters who were already here . The iriali was mixed in and u have what is currently Roshar! I wasn't trying to imply that the Iriali were the ancestors of the Shin. I was just making a joke about the fact that the Iriali came in a later migration from whatever the Third Land is. Also, I highly doubt that there could be such a thing as "pureblood" Ashynites. An entire planet where all the humans are once race? Yeah, no. I think the Shin are the descendants of 2-5 races from Ashyn that have conglomerated into one race over several thousands of years and due to separation of human populations, which would allow for distinct evolutionary patterns from the rest of Roshar.
Wyndlerunner he/him Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 I feel like the Shin are the original genetic stock of the Ashynites, whereas the rest of the Rosharans have adapted somewhat to life with the storms, and are now genetically distinct from the Shin.
Zelly Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) There were humans originally on Roshar though, right? Or at least, there was a migration long before the mess with the Shards started. Quote HorseCannon I didn't realize horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other? Brandon Sanderson There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.) Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. ccstat Are there Aimian-Human hybrids as well? (Either type of Aimian) If so, are the Thaylen people one of these? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Blightsong *via private message* Some of us believe that you are saying that humans and listeners existed pre-Shattering while some of us believe that you are saying that Horneaters and Herdazians existed pre-Shattering (you have mentioned that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering recently). What were you trying to say here? Brandon Sanderson Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen. Footnote: Blightsong's parenthetical statement is mistaken; there is no source claiming that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering.source Also, on an interesting note, a bit of connection with languages: Quote IneptProfessional Since you mention languages on Roshar, are there any languages that are completely unrelated to any other on the planet? Brandon Sanderson Our basic language families are: Vorin: Alethi, Veden, Herdazian, and more distantly Thaylen. Nathan is close to dead, but shares a root, and Karbranthian is basically a dialect. Other minor languages like Bav are in here. Makabaki: Azish is king here, and most the languages around split off this. There are around thirty of these. Dawnate: A varied language family with distant roots in the dawnchant. Shin, parshendi, Horneater. They share grammar, but they diverged long enough ago that the vocabulary is very different. Iri: Iriali, Reshi, Purelake dialects, Riran, and some surrounding languages. Aimian: These two are lumped together, but are very different. Probably what you were looking for. That isn't counting spren languages, of course. I might have missed something. Typing on my phone without my wiki handy. source The Shin and the Parshendi share a language family, which makes me think they had to be originals/earliest migrants. Edited July 11, 2018 by Zellyia
Angsos Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Wait there had to be humans pre-shattering on Roshar as some point if Horneaters and Herdazians were there unless the Parsh were only there pre-shattering? I'm confused
Zelly Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 I assume that humans were worldhopping around the cosmere long before the Shattering. Adolnasium might not have created humans on/for Roshar (as they don't really fit the ecology), but some found their way there a loooooong time ago.
Weltall Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) That the strain of humanity currently on Roshar existed before the Shattering does not mean that humans were on Roshar before the Shattering, just that the humans who became the Rosharans existed prior to that point. The simplest explanation that fits what Brandon has said is that humans existed on Ashyn pre-Shattering, either because they travelled there somehow or Adonalsium put them there when he created the entire system. The evidence from Oathbringer points to there being no humans on Roshar until after the Shattering since the Eila Stele tells us that they were new to the singers when they arrived from Ashyn, and the text tells us that what's now Shinovar was their first home. That they brought (or were perceived to have brought) Odium with them firmly places the arrival of humanity on Roshar after the Shattering. Edited July 11, 2018 by Weltall 3
StrikerEZ he/him Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 @Zellyia Weltall already summed this up pretty well, but that WoB does not state that the Rosharan humans were on Roshar pre-shattering, just that the strain of humans on Roshar existed pre-shattering. 18 minutes ago, Angsos said: Wait there had to be humans pre-shattering on Roshar as some point if Horneaters and Herdazians were there unless the Parsh were only there pre-shattering? I'm confused The Horneaters and Herdazians came about after there was interbreeding between the humans and Singers presumably before the Desolation cycle began. Both humans and Singers existed pre-shattering, but only Singers were on Roshar pre-shattering. 1
Weltall Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Another thing that occurred to me, on the question of appearance. It's quite possible that there's a relationship between the non-Shin peoples developing the epicanthic fold and humanity becoming the 'Children of Honor'. Dalinar sees all three Vessels and he does not remark on the eyes of Tanavast and Cultivation's Vessel but he does notice that Rayse has 'Shin eyes'. Perhaps when the humans and singers essentially switched Shards, the humans' eyes were changed to look more like their new gods' as a sign of their allegiance? We know this sort of biological tampering is well within the capabilities of a Shard. I can think of a few reasons why the Shin might not have this, ranging from them initially favoring Odium (humans apparently gave him more of an ear at first) to them preferring to not have the change as a sign of their being the ones who kept to the initial agreements with the singers, or various permutations thereof.
Zelly Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Wait...............when Brandon says "both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension", is he referring to humans and parsh? Because that statement makes a lot more sense. I thought he was referring to Horneaters and Herdazians, which was throwing everything off. But now I have a problem with how humans and parsh were able to produce children. I mean....they don't share a common ancestry, it seems incredibly unlikely that offspring would be possible. Unless Adonalsium made them that way? I wonder if Cultivation got involved somehow....interspecies breeding sounds like her sort of thing. Maybe ancient Singers created a human-mate form? Or humans are the galactic baseline and can breed with anything.
Weltall Posted July 12, 2018 Posted July 12, 2018 If Adonalsium actually created humanity directly (something Brandon has danced around, saying that people believe it without confirming that it's so) and he created the singers (likely, given that he made the entire system they live in) then it's quite possible that he made them closely related enough genetically that they could have children with each other. Even if you're almost or actually omnipotent, why reinvent the genetic wheel each time when you already have a template that works?
StrikerEZ he/him Posted July 12, 2018 Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) @Zellyia @Weltall There's actually a WoB I've seen somewhere where Brandon basically says that Adonalsium designed the Singers so that they would be able to interbreed with humans. I might be misremembering a WoB, but I'll go searching for the on I'm think of and post my findings later. EDIT: That was easy. It was the only one that came up by searching "interbreed" (keep in mind, it's paraphrased) Quote Finallity [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)We've seen a number of human/singer hybrids (Unkalaki and Herdazians) and even human/Aimian hybrids (Natans). How is such a thing possible biologically or is there some outside influence there?Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)He said that they (humans and parshendi/aimians) can interbreed because they were made by the same person, or rather that they were made with the same intent, that they were made that way on purpose. They don't have a common heritage or anything though.https://wob.coppermind.net/events/322/#e9235 Edited July 12, 2018 by StrikerEZ 1
Recommended Posts