[OB][Secret History] Taln

[Ixthos]

So, spoilers for both Oathbringer and Mistborn Secret History. The topic, Taln resisting torture for a long time.

 

First, some speculation unrelated to the main thrust of this theory.

Something I've been wondering about is how Taln was able to resist being tortured for so long, and then, if he was able to resist for so long why he suddenly broke after thousands of years when he had survived so long. Something I considered was that he actually hadn't and this was actually Odium actually holding back until the time was right and then fully torturing him once Roshar was ready, maybe the other heralds had become so weak, the Radiants collapsed, society on the right path to be consumed, Honour dead. This also would make sense even considering Odium paying special attention to Taln's memory with the Everstorm if Taln took longer to break under Odiums extra effort than expected. Another thing which I hadn't fully focused on initially but I started thinking about recently was mentioned in the podcast - the idea of Braize basically being a massive game of hide and seek, and Taln lasted so long because he took a long time to be captured, or once captured he was able to escape often. These two factors, however, are only tangential to the theory, which has two different takes depending on one important factor - are they on Braize as cognitive shadows in bodies, or as cognitive shadows without them?

In Mistborn Secret History, Hoid, who might be or might not be a cognitive shadow but definitely had a body, tanked Kelsier's punches. Not initially, he seemed to be suffering from them at first, but then he decided to take the fight seriously, and suddenly Kelsier's punches did nothing. He then beat the stuffing out of Kelsier, told him it was actually all in his head (and - this is important at the end - didn't want to hurt his soul) and left, leaving Kelsier to gather himself, thinking about how he wasn't actually in pain until he believed it.

So, I think that Taln, whether also through being skilled at escaping or hiding from the Fused, whether or not Odium waited until fully torturing him, was able to survive thousands of years of torture was because he - being so stuborn, being a cognitive shadow and thus partially affected by belief, being a herald renowned for being like stone - resisted by believing he could resist, that the torture was not enough, that others depended on him and he would not yield. Whether the torture happened in the physical realm or the cognitive, I think that might explain it.

But I also think there might be more to it. Physical torture might be resistible cognitively, and cognitive torture only works if it could overwhelm him. But what about the third type? What if he was tortured in all three? What damage could have been done? Maybe cognitive belief can buffer the physical, but I don't know about the third. Maybe someone buffered and protected that part, maybe it was off limits due to the pact, and maybe it could only be damaged by succoming to the torture, the cognitive illusion of resistance shattered, and the herald who resists and is known for stuborness is no longer the ideal of resistance.

[Calderis]

I definitely believe that Odium held back. The back cover of tWoK definitely implies that the length of time between the last Desolation and this one was intentional on Odium's part. 

I also think that Taln was in no way safe because if the state he was in. Hoid implies that if he wanted to, he could have hurt Kelsier. The madness of the Heralds, and the state that Taln is in after his return... I don't think that's something that he could simply believe away. They hurt him Cognitively and Spiritually. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Calderis

[Ixthos]

Agreed. Though I think the fight between Hoid and Kelsier would have turned out differently if Kelsier was more adept at altering his own perception. Taln, being a cognitive shadow, probably spent at least some of his existence in just the Cognitive realm, and so would be better trained in ignoring things done to him cognitively. My question though is was he damaged spiritually as part of the torture, or is his spiritual damage a result of the cognitive torture?

Also, in the Cognitive realm, the flames or glows are said to be the soul of the person, so did Hoid mean damaging the spiritual aspect directly, or the manifestation in the Cognitive realm.

[Steeldancer]

Sees topic called Taln, is obliged to say something however he managed to do it, he did, and it’s awesome. I suspect we’ll see more of it when we finally get Talns viewpoint 

[Zelly]

Wild speculation: What if Odium deliberately set up the events of Aharietiam to ensure that the 4500 year gap occurred?  He needed the time (for whatever reason), but the return of the Heralds kept setting his timing off.  So he creates a scenario in which only the one with the most fortitude/stamina returns. (Meh, it's convoluted.) 

 

I also think Taln himself maybe special in other ways.  He is the anomaly of the Heralds. 

He wasn't suppose to have been one to start with.

He wasn't an important figure like the other nine.

 

[Angsos]

The Brandon avatar that got away is posting again.

Maybe Honor just grabbed Taln off the street because they obviously couldn't have 9 heralds. Therefore Honor just went Rock, Aimian, Herdazian and picked that way.

[Storyspren]

So to me, obviously Odium doesn't care at all for the parsh people, their half dead ancestors or any of that.

And also someone wanted another desolation to happen when it's actually happening. The sons of honor were totally  being manipulated by someone or thing. Something obviously bad-ish at least. 

So I definitely like the idea that odium was timing things/ holding off on Taln's torture. 

What could the timing be about?

A) actually bringing taln to his side 

B] honor to die

C) Gavilar or someone suitable to receive the visions and release the kraken spren

D) spren to bring back the radiants for some reason

E) something to do with cultivation 

F) something to do with hoid.

G) something off screen

H) fabrial science to advance to a certain point

Oh god. Too many possibilities.

 

[Leyrann]

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

Oh god. Too many possibilities.

Actually I think we can cross off quite a few of them.

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

A) actually bringing taln to his side 

Very unlikely, plus we know that he's been working on bringing Dalinar to his side.

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

B] honor to die

Honor has been dead for quite some time.

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

C) Gavilar or someone suitable to receive the visions and release the kraken spren

...Kraken? Anyway, we know that a number of people have recieved the visions over time. In fact, considering Sunmaker aimed to unify Roshar, he may have had the visions as well, and he would probably have been as good a candidate for Odium as Gavilar or Dalinar in this case.

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

D) spren to bring back the radiants for some reason

This has been happening continuously, but has been stifled by the Skybreakers.

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

E) something to do with cultivation

Always possible.

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

F) something to do with hoid

Likely not, as Hoid comments Odium doesn't know where he is (or he'd flatten Kholinar for the chance to kill Hoid).

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

G) something off screen

Another possibility.

4 hours ago, Storyspren said:

H) fabrial science to advance to a certain point

Seems unlikely but possible to me.

Let me add I) It just took this long to get all the pieces to line up.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Leyrann

[Doomdrinker]

I'd always believed he was waiting for the listeners to be rediscovered, that was the pivotal moment that set the whole sequence of invents into motion. 

I bet Gavilar started getting visions the first highstorm after discovering them. 

[CadCom]

This is all very interesting, and, to be honest, I wondered why Taln was able to resist so long, but I never looked into it. 

I want to go back and read through the books again now to see if there also seems to be a specific reason why the radiants abandoned their oaths when they did. Was that part of Odium's plan? I mean, I know why they abandoned them in the first place, but I can't remember what caused them to find out that the people had come to roshar after destroying their own land. Was that part of Odium's timing? If so, Why didn't he wait until, say 50-80 years before the everstorm? Now I have a project for the rest of the summer, starting all the way back with TWoK again!

[StrikerEZ]

43 minutes ago, Cadmium Compounder said:

This is all very interesting, and, to be honest, I wondered why Taln was able to resist so long, but I never looked into it. 

I want to go back and read through the books again now to see if there also seems to be a specific reason why the radiants abandoned their oaths when they did. Was that part of Odium's plan? I mean, I know why they abandoned them in the first place, but I can't remember what caused them to find out that the people had come to roshar after destroying their own land. Was that part of Odium's timing? If so, Why didn't he wait until, say 50-80 years before the everstorm? Now I have a project for the rest of the summer, starting all the way back with TWoK again!

Honor himself told the Radiants that, I believe, unless I'm mistaken.

A very popular theory of what happened with the Recreance is that the Radiants were already starting to doubt themselves, since Honor was raving to them that they were the voidbringers and they would eventually destroy Roshar like they did Ashyn. Add in some examples of that destruction (Stormseat) with the fact that, by imprisoning BAM to stop her from giving voidlight to the Singers during the False Desolation, they basically performed a lobotomy on an entire species, the Radiants probably weren't feeling like they were the good guys.