[OB] Moash’s dagger

[Kramerfarve]

Kinda just spitballing here, but could the dagger itself just serve as like a bridge from the spirit web of a person to the gem in the pommel? Like maybe the gem is the detachable containment unit and once charged with whatever it is, you don’t “spike” yourself but maybe you could swallow a newly made artificial gem-heart of the “spren” of Jezrien?

Edited July 4, 2018 by Kramerfarve
Missing [OB]

[Leyrann]

It's theorized (also because of it's colour) that the dagger is made from Odium's godmetal and that what it does is hemalurgic in nature, which traps the soul inside the gemstone.

[Kramerfarve]

Right, but In a WOB I’ve seen him say that the function is similar but he would not call it the same as hemalurgy, and I doubt he would use that exact method in SA because he doesn’t want the large crossover yet, so what I’m saying is that it’s different in that the dagger does not serve the same purpose of the spike (stealing, storing, granting) but only one part, the act of stealing it, while the gem-heart would do the rest.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

14 hours ago, Leyrann said:

It's theorized (also because of it's colour) that the dagger is made from Odium's godmetal and that what it does is hemalurgic in nature, which traps the soul inside the gemstone.

Ok we know that the Heralds are cognitive. Shadows! Upon death they return to Braise (damnation). This time the other Heralds felt him die! His soul either passed thru the Cognitive realm into the beyond ; Or, it was destroyed. So the sapphire acts as a gateway to the beyond, or it acts as destroyer of the spirit web. I Theorize the effect is similar to what happens when the Fused take over a Singers body and destroys the Singers cognitive self. I know want to see it as simular to Hemalurgy . Perhaps it is , the part where Hemalurgy rips away a part of the spirit web , but I see no gain on it to benifit Moash!

[Calderis he/him]

The dagger, in my opinion, ripped the investiture that bound Jezrien to the Oathpact out of his soul, which forced him to go beyond. The power keeping him bound to life was removed, and placed into the gemstone.

I don't think it is akin to hemalurgy, though I understand why it's viewed as such. I think stabbing him anywhere would have latched onto the power suffusing him and stripped it away. 

[Willshaping Crasher]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The dagger, in my opinion, ripped the investiture that bound Jezrien to the Oathpact out of his soul, which forced him to go beyond. The power keeping him bound to life was removed, and placed into the gemstone.

Interesting.  If that is the case, then the gemstone (or 9 more like it) could completely break the Oathpact.  If this would also release Odium, it makes sense that this is his alternate plan after the failure with Dalinar.

Alternately, one must wonder if the gem can be used to add a new individual to the Oathpact.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Interesting.  If that is the case, then the gemstone (or 9 more like it) could completely break the Oathpact.  If this would also release Odium, it makes sense that this is his alternate plan after the failure with Dalinar.

Alternately, one must wonder if the gem can be used to add a new individual to the Oathpact.

Grr, I can't find it, but there's a WoB out there that says the Oathpact was only between Honor and the Heralds (@Calderis help), and all it does is basically cause the Desolation cycle because the Heralds were holding the Fused on Braize. 

[Rand al’Thorres]

54 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Grr, I can't find it, but there's a WoB out there that says the Oathpact was only between Honor and the Heralds (@Calderis help), and all it does is basically cause the Desolation cycle because the Heralds were holding the Fused on Braize. 

Yep, I remember this, I think that don't mention Braize, but yes sais that Desolation does not appears again because the "spirit's" (?) Herald retain the Voidbringers (Portadores del Vacío in Spanish, I don't know the exactly translation).

[Vissy]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

The dagger, in my opinion, ripped the investiture that bound Jezrien to the Oathpact out of his soul, which forced him to go beyond. The power keeping him bound to life was removed, and placed into the gemstone.

I don't think it is akin to hemalurgy, though I understand why it's viewed as such. I think stabbing him anywhere would have latched onto the power suffusing him and stripped it away. 

If that's true, then could that same power that allowed for the Oathpact to happen be transferred to someone else via that dagger? Like, by stabbing them ala the Blinding Knife?

[Rand al’Thorres]

6 minutes ago, Vissy said:

If that's true, then could that same power that allowed for the Oathpact to happen be transferred to someone else via that dagger? Like, by stabbing them ala the Blinding Knife?

Mmm... interesting... but transfer a soul to another human? Would be similar as Voidbringer are doing with the parsh... 

[Szmit]

It is not entire soul since Heralds consider Jeseren dead, so it would most likelly work more like hemalurgically giving someone attribute of beeing a herald. Especially considering that Sanderson said that dagger uses similar principles to hemalurgy. 

[Scion of the Mists]

Moash's dagger is "similar to Hemalurgy."  Brandon considers them separate things, but they share the same fundamentals.  

Odium's imprisonment is "not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it."  

[Kramerfarve]

46 minutes ago, Szmit said:

It is not entire soul since Heralds consider Jeseren dead . . . Sanderson said that dagger uses similar principles to hemalurgy. 

Right, and here is where I’m making the argument that instead of it using a metal spike that loses the efficiency over time, it uses a detachable gem-heart that does not lose efficiency, and the knife can be re-used with a new gem to replace it.

[Localconfusi0n]

One thing I wanna point out is that whatever method it was, it acts so similarly to hemalurgy that in-world characters would consider it the same thing. So it has to have ripped out a chunk of Jezrien, we just don't know what chunk that was. It could be Odiumlurgy (that's what I'm going with atleast) can only target one attribute which happened to be one that a CS needs to live. Or maybe whatever u hate when crafting the spike drives the Intent of it, so each spike needs to be made specifically and by someone passionate about the goal? Idk, I'm sure im of base but my point is Odiumlurgy steals an attribute of some sort in exact same manner as Hemalurgy, but if Brandon says he considers them 2 seperate systems, then there must be something that sets them apart. And since we've seen them produce the same effect and also seen that how they're used is the same (stabbing completely through someone) the only thing that can be different is how they're crafted, besides the obvious choice of metal. 

[+robardin he/him]

I think it must be significant that they got Moash to do it - that the Fused would not, or could not, do it.

Whatever component of the Oathpact recycled the Heralds (Honor's primary agents) and the Fused (Odlum's) between Roshar (Honor's "home turf") and Braize (Odium's), while limiting Odium to that system until the cycle could be broken, clearly still has humans in the middle as free agents. (Though with the listeners' history as those "who fled their gods" and Venli becoming Radiant even with a Voidspren in her are any example, they also have a choice, though the Fused are already committed to Odium.)

That, plus the fact that this Desolation is notably different from those previous. After all, if Odium could just drop some godmetal dagger and go stabby on the Heralds to whittle down Honor's pieces in play, he'd have done it long ago - and he's had human minions before, even if Voidspren-fused singers were somehow barred from the task.

What's the reason for the differences this time (the Everstorm, Sja-Anat going rogue, Dalinar's being a super Bondsmith, probably more)? (a) 9 out of 10 Heralds had abandoned their Oath, (b) Honor has been Splintered, (c) something we have yet to learn about...

I also don't think it's a coincidence that they gave Moash/Vyre the Honorblade of Jezrien after he personally offed Jezrien in that manner.

[ZenBossanova]

6 hours ago, jefftucker0525 said:

One thing I wanna point out is that whatever method it was, it acts so similarly to hemalurgy that in-world characters would consider it the same thing. So it has to have ripped out a chunk of Jezrien, we just don't know what chunk that was. It could be Odiumlurgy

Emphasis mine

I am going to go with vivolurgy (acting on a person's vital force) or, better yet, Ectolurgy (acting on a person's spirit web or literally, their ghost).

It would be a close cousin to Hemalurgy, though with some fundamental differences. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

8 hours ago, robardin said:

 

I think it must be significant that they got Moash to do it - that the Fused would not, or could not, do it.

 

Maybe it stole Jezrien link to his honor blade, considering they gave Jezrien blade to Moash right after ! I may not understand the particulars I think the reason they had Moash do it was because it had something to do with the honorblade. Thoughts ?

[Rand al’Thorres]

Sorry 4 my bad english!

I think that didn't say to Moash kill Jezrien in relation with Honorblade, before, the Jezrien's Honorblade was brandished by other people. 

I think that Odium has been using Moash as a instrument, Taravangian said that Odium cannot face Dalinar, because was obliged to fight due to champions duel. This, or Odium is preparing and training Moash to be his Champion...

[Kramerfarve]

Yes, I’d agree with Rand al’Thorres, I think that Odium had Moash kill Jezrien because he is grooming Moash to either become his Champion, or at least a primary actor on behalf of him a la steel inquisitors in Mistborn, although it might have to do with increased functionality of the honorblade. Perhaps what they stole from Jezrien was what tied him to Honor’s investiture pool? 

[ZenBossanova]

Perhaps as long as Moash has the dagger, the Oathpact can not restart, because he holds Jezrien's part of the Oath. 

But what I want to know is, does this give him unrestricted access to Jezrien's Surges, and/or Stormlight? 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

On 7/6/2018 at 11:31 AM, ZenBossanova said:

Perhaps as long as Moash has the dagger, the Oathpact can not restart, because he holds Jezrien's part of the Oath. 

But what I want to know is, does this give him unrestricted access to Jezrien's Surges, and/or Stormlight? 

I definitely agree with your first statement. In addiction, whatever made him a Herald and bound him to the Oathpact is now gone, so he is no longer a Cognitive Shadow and is permanently dead, in my opinion.

He gets access to Jezrien's Surges simply by having/holding/bonding/whatever the Honorblade. Unless Odium gives him a direct feed of Investiture though (possibly letting him hack surgebinding wirh voidlight?), he will have to absorb stormlight from spheres. 

[Angsos]

I don't think Moash will be his champ, someone important because of the Blade and kinship with Bridge 4 obviously. He's too obvious to be the guy if Odium get's another shot.

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, Angsos said:

I don't think Moash will be his champ, someone important because of the Blade and kinship with Bridge 4 obviously. He's too obvious to be the guy if Odium get's another shot.

More importantly, Moash is a good fighter, but he isn't really Blackthorn-level of good. The risk/reward ratio just isn't there. I am not sure Odium will even bother with the Champion idea again, this Desolation. 

[Rand al’Thorres]

On 6/7/2018 at 6:31 PM, ZenBossanova said:

Perhaps as long as Moash has the dagger, the Oathpact can not restart, because he holds Jezrien's part of the Oath. 

But what I want to know is, does this give him unrestricted access to Jezrien's Surges, and/or Stormlight? 

I not agree at all...

I think that is not necessary that all Heralds return to Braize diying in order to the Oathpact be restarted. When the Heralds break the oath, only 1 died and return to Braize.

[Magpro]

I think it is linked to jezrien's Blade. I believe that all the Honor Blades are still linked to the Heralds, and if they wish can summon them back. If they do, they will bring back their Sanity. Odium wanted to remove that, hence remove the investure/bond from the Heralds. As that is the thing also keeping them in this world, when the investure was removed, it allowed Jezrien to truly die.

Edited July 9, 2018 by FahadWajid
typos