[OB] Speculation on Azure and Zahel

[ScarletSabre]

So, I've been re-reading the Annotations for Warbreaker on Brandon's site for the last couple of days, and something just jumped out at me...

Brandon mentions in the annotation for chapter fifty five that Yesteel is "much better at sneaking than Vasher or Vivenna."

This, combined with the fact that Vasher has worldhopped before coming to Roshar as Zahel, makes me wonder if the reason he came to Roshar, aside from simply having easy access to Stormlight, was to hunt Yesteel.

If I remember correctly, he and Vivenna were headed after Yesteel at the end of Warbreaker, in the sequel Brandon will eventually get to writing, which clearly takes place before the events of Stormlight.

I'm wondering if during that sequel, Yesteel flees Nalthis entirely, possibly to Roshar. He could be around somewhere, completely missed by us, since we (to the best of my recollection) have never had a description of his appearance/personality.... Though the appearance part is rather moot, since as a likely Returned as well, he'd be able to alter his appearance the way Vasher can.

If I had to speculate, I might guess that during the events of Nightblood (I don't think Brandon has ever given another planned name for the sequel), it might be where we learn the precise method on how Nightblood was created, probably from Yesteel himself, telling it to Vivenna.

This would explain how she came to create her own Shardblade, since I don't think Vasher, no matter how much he likes/trusts her, would give her the precise method for Awakening a sword like that, and probably wouldn't let her experiment/figure it out herself given the possible outcomes.

Any thoughts to support/oppose any of this?

Edited July 5, 2018 by ScarletSabre
Added Tags

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

1 hour ago, ScarletSabre said:

I don't think Vasher, no matter how much he likes/trusts her, would give her the precise method for Awakening a sword like that, and probably wouldn't let her experiment/figure it out herself given the possible outcomes.

I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, Vasher killed the woman he loved to prevent more Nightbloods being created. On the other, he did decide to entrust Vivenna with the secret to creating a third generation shardblade such as Nightblood so I could see them cooperating to make an ideal fourth generation shardblade. 

1 hour ago, ScarletSabre said:

If I remember correctly, he and Vivenna were headed after Yesteel at the end of Warbreaker, in the sequel Brandon will eventually get to writing, which clearly takes place before the events of Stormlight. I'm wondering if during that sequel, Yesteel flees Nalthis entirely, possibly to Roshar. He could be around somewhere, completely missed by us, since we (to the best of my recollection) have never had a description of his appearance/personality.... Though the appearance part is rather moot, since as a likely Returned as well, he'd be able to alter his appearance the way Vasher can.

It's certainly plausible. We know that Nightblood is pretty much a prequel to Way of Kings so the timeline with Vasher chasing Yesteel to Roshar and deciding to stay would definitely fit. The thing which I'm most interested to see in this scenario is if Yesteel has figured out how to awaken with Stormlight. We know that hacking the magic systems is possible but Vasher hasn't figured it out despite his efforts. Yesteel seems like the more brilliant of the two from a scholarly perspective from what we learned in Warbreaker so it is possible that he figured it out and fled to Roshar to give himself a tactical advantage as the highstorms are invested to the hilt as Vasher says. 

[Angsos]

Vivenna knows how to awaken even though we don't really see the results on-screen

[Leyrann]

Didn't Vivenna say in OB that she came chasing Vasher and Nightblood though?

[Calderis]

I'm of the opinion that Yesteel is dead, and that Vivenna didn't make her sword. Yesteel did. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

I think Yesteel will die in Nightblood (sequel). I also think there is a WoB or Warbreaker annotation hinting Yesteel was in Nalthis about the time of Warbreaker. Something along the lines of: A big war would have erupted, made worse by Yesteel and his knowledge.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

3 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Didn't Vivenna say in OB that she came chasing Vasher and Nightblood though?

She never said who it was. From memory she said “ I came here chasing a criminal, a thief” I think she implies strongly it’s vashur/zahel . But what if when she told Kaladin that she was looking to meet up with his sword master it was to throw us off. What if she is chasing “ yesteel” and is mad at Zahel for not helping ?

     I always wondered why Vashur doesn’t have Nightblood ? What if the simple answer is Nightblood would draw too many questions . He can’t pretend to be a seordmaster with a blade like Nightblood!

 

[Calderis]

She said she came chasing a criminal. And then later it was made clear she's chasing Nightblood. 

Quote

Shallan nodded, then glanced again at Azure’s sword. “You said … the honorspren have information on your bounty?”
“Yeah. Borea thinks the weapon I’m chasing passed through their fortress a few years ago.”
“Your bounty is a … weapon?”

 

[Nathrangking]

4 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

She never said who it was. From memory she said “ I came here chasing a criminal, a thief” I think she implies strongly it’s vashur/zahel . But what if when she told Kaladin that she was looking to meet up with his sword master it was to throw us off. What if she is chasing “ yesteel” and is mad at Zahel for not helping ?

     I always wondered why Vashur doesn’t have Nightblood ? What if the simple answer is Nightblood would draw too many questions . He can’t pretend to be a seordmaster with a blade like Nightblood!

 

If I remember correctly and @Calderis or @RShara probably have it on the tips of their keys Brandon has said that at some point Vasher and Nightblood had a falling out. This could explain why they split up. Though until Nightblood is released those answers are hidden from us.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Nathrangking

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

She said she came chasing a criminal. And then later it was made clear she's chasing Nightblood. 

 

Well I don’t think Szeth is going to give up Sword-Nimi! 

Maybe if Dalinar ordered him to

 

[RShara]

26 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

If I remember correctly and @Calderis of @RShara probably have it on the tips of their keys Brandon has said that at some point Vasher and Nightblood had a falling out. This could explain why they split up. Though until Nightblood is released those answers are hidden from us.

Yep

Quote

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

Any hint on how Nin got a hold of Nightblood, or how Vasher lost Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson (Written) (paraphrased)

Vasher and Nightblood had something of a falling out...

source

 

[Angsos]

I wonder if Nightblood refused to kill someone or killed someone he was supposed to, by accident. Going by the criminal thing, it has to be killed someone he wasn't supposed to, I just hope it wasn't Siri.

[RShara]

I don't think that Nightblood would have the ability to refuse to kill someone, or care if he killed the wrong person. His sense of memory and time are...not great when he's drawn or wreaking mischief.

[Angsos]

I was just speculating ways a more or less inanimate object could be a criminal unless the fact he can talk in your head and say let's kill people is why he's a criminal. I assume Nightblood and Vivenna will run into each other just because everybody ends up near him eventually.

[Willshaping Crasher]

I'm going to add that Vivenna/Azure is at least 6 years late to the party.  Nightblood was (in my opinion) alluded to in Dalinar's flashback with the Nightwatcher/Cultivation.  Perhaps Yesteel escaped (with Nightblood) and Nightblood was briefly in the possession of the Nightwatcher, or the "falling out" between Vasher and Nightblood occurred around their arrival on Roshar?

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Willshaping Crasher

[CrazyRioter]

17 minutes ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

I'm going to add that Vivenna/Azure is at least 6 years late to the party.  Nightblood was (in my opinion) alluded to in Dalinar's flashback with the Nightwatcher/Cultivation.  Perhaps Yesteel escaped and Nightblood was briefly in the possession of the Nightwatcher?

 

Nightblood was definitely in the possession of the Nightwatcher. No telling how he ended up there though.

[Willshaping Crasher]

4 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Nightblood was definitely in the possession of the Nightwatcher. No telling how he ended up there though.

I think this is an important pivot point.  How did Nightblood arrive?  Is Vasher responsible for his handover to the Nightwatcher?  Is Yesteel?  Has Vasher actually communicated with Cultivation?  It may be just backstory, however, it may not.

[CrazyRioter]

IIRC Cultivation said she hadn't talked to any humans in a long time.

Admittedly, I suppose it's possible that she wasn't counting Vasher as human, as he's a Returned...

Either way I suspect what happened with Nightblood will play at least some part in the plot eventually.

[ScarletSabre]

12 hours ago, RShara said:

I don't think that Nightblood would have the ability to refuse to kill someone, or care if he killed the wrong person. His sense of memory and time are...not great when he's drawn or wreaking mischief.

According to the annotations on Warbreaker, Nightblood's effect on people to test whether they're a good person or not, and if he'll kill them, is tempting them to draw him. If they're a good person, they'll feel sick when they get near to/touch him, and then afterwards be immune to some of his effects.

Anyone who's evil will feel a desire to draw the sword and kill with it, and that feeling will be enhanced. It's why Vasher just throws the swords into the middle of people, if they pick it up and try to kill with it, it's good enough for him to not feel bad about killing them.

[Scion of the Mists]

5 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

Nightblood was definitely in the possession of the Nightwatcher. No telling how he ended up there though.

Just because the Nightwatcher offered Nightblood to Dalinar, doesn't necessarily mean that she was in possession of it at that time.  

[ScarletSabre]

24 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

5 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

Nightblood was definitely in the possession of the Nightwatcher. No telling how he ended up there though.

Just because the Nightwatcher offered Nightblood to Dalinar, doesn't necessarily mean that she was in possession of it at that time.  

Huh, I'd forgotten about that... Perhaps Vasher went to the Nightwatcher for some reason, such as being able to convert Stormlight to Breaths etc, and that's where they had the falling out, over the Nightwatcher or Cultivation...

 

[RShara]

5 hours ago, ScarletSabre said:

According to the annotations on Warbreaker, Nightblood's effect on people to test whether they're a good person or not, and if he'll kill them, is tempting them to draw him. If they're a good person, they'll feel sick when they get near to/touch him, and then afterwards be immune to some of his effects.

Anyone who's evil will feel a desire to draw the sword and kill with it, and that feeling will be enhanced. It's why Vasher just throws the swords into the middle of people, if they pick it up and try to kill with it, it's good enough for him to not feel bad about killing them.

I'm familiar with what the annotations say. By the way, they aren't immune to his effects unless he's fed on them.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Another note here is that Nightblood can sense where Vasher is. This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher's Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It's also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn't get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he's a good person. It's not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers.

source

The point I was discussion was this:

19 hours ago, Angsos said:

I wonder if Nightblood refused to kill someone or killed someone he was supposed to, by accident. Going by the criminal thing, it has to be killed someone he wasn't supposed to, I just hope it wasn't Siri.

At no point does Nightblood consciously decide to kill or not kill someone. He leaves that up to his bearer.

 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Five

Vivenna Awakes, Bound by Vasher

This chapter—with what happens in the latter part of it—is the most dangerous in the book. Dangerous to me as an author, I mean. I love good plot twists, but I worry about leaving them without proper foreshadowing. I've never done something as drastic as I have in this book, having a group of sympathetic characters turn out to be working for the wrong side. I hope it succeeds, but I know that if it doesn't, readers will be very mad. Nothing is sloppier than a book with unearned changes in character motivation.

But we're not there quite yet. Before that we have the first real interaction between Vivenna and Vasher. He gives her what he likes to think of as the Nightblood test. One nice thing about having a sword that "cannot tempt the hearts of those who are pure" is that when someone like Vivenna touches it, she gets sick. I didn't want Nightblood to come across as a "one ring" knockoff. He doesn't turn people's hearts or corrupt them. However, in order to be able to do his job and fulfill his Command, he needs the ability to determine who is good and who is evil.

This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn't want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly.

Nightblood himself, unfortunately, doesn't quite understand what good and evil are. (This is mentioned later in the text.) However, he knows that his master can determine who is good and who is evil—using the sword's power to make people sick, or through other means. So, he pretty much just lets whoever is holding him decide what is evil. And if the one holding the sword determines—deep within their heart—that they are evil themselves, then they will end up killing themselves with the sword.

Vivenna passes the test, which surprises Vasher. He thought that she'd be the type who would use Nightblood to kill and destroy. (He doesn't have a high opinion of her, obviously. Of course, that's partially because he's let his temper dictate what he thinks.)

source

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by RShara

[teknopathetic]

19 hours ago, RShara said:

I don't think that Nightblood would have the ability to refuse to kill someone, or care if he killed the wrong person. His sense of memory and time are...not great when he's drawn or wreaking mischief.

I feel Nightblood wouldnt want to Kill Vasher or any of the 5 scholars. I think Nightblood is fairly convinced Vasher is not evil. 

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I feel Nightblood wouldnt want to Kill Vasher or any of the 5 scholars. I think Nightblood is fairly convinced Vasher is not evil. 

He wouldn't even remember doing it. Vasher killed Shashara with Nightblood. Nightblood thinks she's still alive.

[Angsos]

The bigger question, why did Nale let Szeth keep Nightblood once he chose the other side. He may not know how Nightblood was made but surely being who and what he is, Nale knows Nightblood is extremely powerful object.