[OB] Talenel's Honorblade

[Ishar]

So, I was looking back through WOB's on the Stormlight Archive, and I ran into one where he said that Taln's Honorblade that he had at the epilogue for tWoK was different then the blade that Dalinar had in WoR. I looked back at the descriptions, tWoK Epilogue: "It was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike." and then in WoR it described the blade as wide and cleaver shaped. The WOB basically said that somehow the honorblade was swapped along the way from Kholinar to the Shattered Plains. I looked back through old posts... but there were over 250 pages to go through, and I gave up at about page 5. I am pretty sure something has already been said on this, but I would like to hear your thoughts on who now has Taln's honorblade. I think it is pretty safe to assume that it is one of the many secret organizations on Roshar that has it, Hoid, or Odium/Voidbringers. I think Hoid is a possibility simply because, well, it is hoid, also, he was at the gates waiting for Taln when he arrived at Kholinar, what hoid would do with an honorblade? No idea, but I think it is certainly possible. I think it is nearly impossible for Odium/Voidbringers to have it (unless they got it from a secret organization) simply because this was before the Everstorm. That leaves the secret organizations. From what I gathered from various shard posts is that there are 9 different organizations working at Roshar, one of which is confirmed to be the 17th Shard. The only other ones that we know much of note about is the Diagram, the Sons of Honor, the Skybreakers, the Envisagers, and the Ghostbloods. Now lets lower that number throught process of elimantion. It is unlikely to be Suns of Honor since this group includes Amaram and tried to steal the Shardblade that had been swapped with the Honorblade, and it seems unlikely that they would bother with swapping a blade out for the Honorblade if they were just going to steal it back later. It is also unlikely that the Skybreakers would steal it, simply because they are all about upholding the law, and it would take a very large loophole to steal a Highprince's property, as well as the fact that they don't really need an Honorblade for any purpose. This leaves as known options for the having the honorblade The Diagram, the Envisagers, or the Ghostbloods, and the 17th Shard, as well as Hoid. Of course, there is always the possibility that one of the other 3 secret organizations has it, and personally I think that is the most likely. I would like to hear everybody's thoughts, and if anybody has a link to an older, similar thread, please post it below. 

 

 

I just realized this really isn't the right place to post theories... would a moderator be so kind as to move it to the cosmere discussion section?

Edited June 29, 2018 by Ishar

[The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him]

Questioner

The Herald of War at the end of Way of Kings-- I assume he had an Honorblade with him?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay... So when Dalinar had the sword that he gave up...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

...for the Stormfather it actually cried, which it typically happens if there's spren in the sword, which means that was not an Honorblade, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and if you look they're described differently!

Questioner

Which means somebody else has the sword, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

The sword was switched out!

Questioner

Probably by Wit. I'm not going to ask you for spoilers, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Wit does not have the sword.

Questioner

No!?

Brandon Sanderson

But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now.

source

So from this it is possible that Hoid was involved in the switch but he is definitely not currently in posession of the Honorblade. My money would be on the Ghostbloods currently posessing the honorblade. They are the only one of the secret societies on Roshar that includes worldhoppers that we know of and their knowledge appears to be more extensive than the Diagrammists and Sons of Honor, as shown when they know obscure details like Taln's location and his past relationship with Shallash. They have also been shown to have a collection of investiture related items from various shardworlds including what is believed to be white sand from Taldain, a tear of Edgli flower, Idrian royal locks, a silver knife from Threnody an Aviar and some unidentified objects. Picking up an Honorblade would make a fine addition to their collection. https://imgur.com/gallery/b4Pk9yv

 

[Calderis he/him]

3 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

My money would be on the Ghostbloods currently posessing the honorblade.

Here's where I put my money. (rampant speculation incoming) 

 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Here's where I put my money. (rampant speculation incoming) 

 

Great theory that I am just now aware of. Have some rep.

I'm very curious to see the Shin culture and learn more about the Stone Shaman. Some of theme were trained to use honour blades so it would definitely be possible for them to use surges to travel to Kholinar to intercept the blade. If I could point out some flaws it would be that the switch was made in secret and an honour blade wielding Shin would be highly conspicuous and would likely start rumours. Also, with the whole Stone Shaman religion and their reticence to walk on stone and break their treaty with the Listeners by entering their lands it would be unlikely for them to travel all the way to Kholinar. 

[MountainKing]

I believe the Stone Shamans have the honorblades, they were confident that when Szeth dies they can get the honorblades, so they have some way of tracking honorblades.

[DocHoliday he/him]

11 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

I believe the Stone Shamans have the honorblades, they were confident that when Szeth dies they can get the honorblades, so they have some way of tracking honorblades.

The shin have kept 9, then 8 Honorblades for millennia. They know Taln is in Braize. If they had come upon the 10th and final Blade, they would know Desolation has returned, that Szeth was right, and would probably be honor bound to do more than "congratulate Dalinar on locating Urithiru".

[RShara she/her]

Sadly, Wit neither switched or has the Honorblade. So we don't really have any hints as to who has it. A secret society is quite likely. The Ghostbloods or maybe the Dysians would be my top pics.

Quote

Questioner

Does a Hoid have two Honorblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid has no Honorblades.

Questioner

Whats wrong on both counts, actually? Brandon gave them to him, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Currently has no Honorblades.

source

Quote

Questioner

At the very end of Words of Radiance, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him. Shouldn't that particular Blade have been safe?

Brandon Sanderson

No it should not have. It's a clue that something has happened.

[...]

[This is] a question that the subtle reader should be asking. And there are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

Questioner

Because Option 2 is that it's unsafe to touch an honorblade, but there's no evidence of that.

Brandon Sanderson

There is no evidence of that. In fact there's much stronger evidence that something else is going on.

Questioner 2

Did Hoid switch out the blades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

source

 

[MountainKing]

28 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

The shin have kept 9, then 8 Honorblades for millennia. They know Taln is in Braize. If they had come upon the 10th and final Blade, they would know Desolation has returned, that Szeth was right, and would probably be honor bound to do more than "congratulate Dalinar on locating Urithiru".

But they would of heard of parshmen becoming singers and the everstorm passes in their region yet they don't do anything, they refuse to accept that a desolation has began.

[Jace21 he/him]

I am not sure they really refuse to accept it, though it is possible.

They could just think it doesnt apply to them. They did stay in Shinovar as they were supposed to and I imagine there are few if any parshmen in Shinovar.

My preferred option is that the stone shamanate dont believe Dalinar can deal with it, so plan to deal with it themselves if they need to.

If I recall, Szeth claimed the Voidbringers had returned? So if the stone shamanate knows its history (ashyn humans were the voidbringers) he could still be wrong in their eyes.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Jace21

[Calderis he/him]

@Jace21 I believe that the Shamanate has a better understanding of history than the rest of Roshar, but I don't think even they remember their origins.

There are quite a few things that imply that Szeth was one of them. His having trained with all 10 surges (which would only be possible if he'd used the other Honorblades) his memory of flying without the need to kill (implying he had Jezrien's blade before being Truthless). If they knew that the Voidbringers were humans, I don't believe Szeth would have claimed they returned. 

[A Secret Corner he/him]

6 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Great theory that I am just now aware of. Have some rep.

I'm very curious to see the Shin culture and learn more about the Stone Shaman. Some of theme were trained to use honour blades so it would definitely be possible for them to use surges to travel to Kholinar to intercept the blade. If I could point out some flaws it would be that the switch was made in secret and an honour blade wielding Shin would be highly conspicuous and would likely start rumours. Also, with the whole Stone Shaman religion and their reticence to walk on stone and break their treaty with the Listeners by entering their lands it would be unlikely for them to travel all the way to Kholinar. 

Well, I don't have the reference, I believe it's in TWoK's prologue, but from Szeth, we know that if he died, the Stone Shamans would retrieve his honorblade. I don't think out that the Stone Shamans wouldn't go to what was once the Parsh's land to retrieve a Honorblade.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

I personally don’t think the Shamanate can track honorblades. I think that the scene in WoK where Kelek slammed his honorblade down into a circle with the other 9 blades is Shinovar. I think there is a reason the Herald abandoned There blades after the last desolation. Perhaps their blades transfer them back to Damnation so they got rid of them .

        By abandoning them they willingly broke the bond of the blade. I Read a WoB that said that even if you broke a gemstone out of a shardblade a new person could not bond it until a new gem was placed inside and the old owner broke his or her bond. 

     9 Honorblades have been bonded with and by the Shin. I think Nale went to them and demanded his blade and they gave it up . The other 8 blades can be summoned back to Shinovar whenever they wish it. Taln can’t because it was never one of the nine. Szeth’s can’t because Szeth bonded his which was lost when he died. None of bridge 4 had the blade long enough to bond it . And if Moash carries it long enough he will bond it. The other 8 blades are bonded to Shamanate master. Since honorblade dont dissapate unless you will them Too , a Shamanate master can loan the blade out for a few days or weeks perhaps. I think Szeth was the master of Jezrien blade .

    So who has Taln blade ? The shin master would not have left a shardblade in place of an honorblade . They would have just taken it  . Amaram was a son of honor and he was looking for Taln blade . When he went to talk to Taln who tried to kill him ? Iyatil was already waiting on him . She is the most likely thief and has the resources and guile to leave a shardblade in its place ..

   I apologize for my convoluted and twisted theory . I have trouble expressing my ideas

p.s. Since Taln never willingly gave up his bond to his honorblade, whenever he wants it he can summon it back . It’s probably why he is not too concerned . That and he loony as bat right now!

Edited June 29, 2018 by SzethIsBadAsHell

[Ishar]

So we are now down to these groups having the blade: Ghostbloods, Shamanate, The Diagram.

[Gerin]

My theory is that Nale talked Taln out of his blade and gave him a different one.  Then Nale traded the honorblade to Vasher for Nightblood.

[Calderis he/him]

43 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I personally don’t think the Shamanate can track honorblades. I think that the scene in WoK where Kelek slammed his honorblade down into a circle with the other 9 blades is Shinovar. I think there is a reason the Herald abandoned There blades after the last desolation. Perhaps their blades transfer them back to Damnation so they got rid of them .

They severed their bonds to the blades yes, but no matter what they believe it did not separate them from the Oathpact. 

Quote

Questioner

Are all of the Heralds still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

The Oathpact has not been broken, so yes.

source

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

source

The fact that they all felt Jezrien's death is further proof of this. 

43 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

By abandoning them they willingly broke the bond of the blade. I Read a WoB that said that even if you broke a gemstone out of a shardblade a new person could not bond it until a new gem was placed inside and the old owner broke his or her bond. 

The Honorblades do not work like Shardblades. They require no gem to bond. Jezrien's blade had no gemstone and yet Szeth bonded it. To use their powers or dismiss the blade they must be bonded. Holding the Honorblade is enough. 

43 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

9 Honorblades have been bonded with and by the Shin. I think Nale went to them and demanded his blade and they gave it up . The other 8 blades can be summoned back to Shinovar whenever they wish it. Taln can’t because it was never one of the nine. Szeth’s can’t because Szeth bonded his which was lost when he died. None of bridge 4 had the blade long enough to bond it . And if Moash carries it long enough he will bond it. The other 8 blades are bonded to Shamanate master. Since honorblade dont dissapate unless you will them Too , a Shamanate master can loan the blade out for a few days or weeks perhaps. I think Szeth was the master of Jezrien blade .

Szeth says that Nale's blade disappeared long ago. I think he simply took it. Itlf it were not held at the time, all he'd need do is pick it up, and considering it is a blade created for him by Honor, I highly doubt he would see it as theft. 

Due to the touch bond of Honorblades, there's no "loaning" them. 

43 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

So who has Taln blade ? The shin master would not have left a shardblade in place of an honorblade . They would have just taken it  . Amaram was a son of honor and he was looking for Taln blade . When he went to talk to Taln who tried to kill him ? Iyatil was already waiting on him . She is the most likely thief and has the resources and guile to leave a shardblade in its place ..

The Honorblade never made it to the plans. The blade that Dalinar bonded and laid as a trap for Amaram is the blade that arrived with him. Somewhere between the he epilogue of tWoK, and Taln's delivery to Bordin the blade was switched, which means before it ever left Kholinar (the alternative is that Bordin, one of Dalinar's most trusted servants left in Kholinar to spy on Aesudan, is a traitor who saw that the blade was different and didn't bother to inform Dalinar). 

22 minutes ago, Gerin said:

My theory is that Nale talked Taln out of his blade and gave him a different one.  Then Nale traded the honorblade to Vasher for Nightblood.

Vasher has been in service to Dalinar as an Ardent long enough to have trained Adolin as a child, all without Nightblood. 

Taln's blade was not available until we see it at the Kholinar gates. 

Edit: @MountainKing yes, I meant Nale's blade, not Taln's. Fixed, thank you. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Calderis

[MountainKing]

What if Taln still has his blade.

So honorblades don't disappear when dismiss, so what stopping a random lighewye from seeing this crazy darkeye with a nice looking honorblade, and decides that this honorblade looks better than theirs so they will just make a switch and call it a day. But Taln still bonded to the blade, so the lighteye would realize that he can't bond with it via gem, but he also wouldn't get the surges because Taln is still bonded.

This theory does have flaws in it like why would someone go to such an extreme risk just because of how a blade looks, so another theory is that while Taln was crazy he accidentally dismissed the blade. Whoever watching Taln wouldn't know how honorblades work so he would think someone stole the blade, so he gets a random blade, maybe one of the king's blades that wasn't taken to the Shattered Plains, and hopes no one notices it. 

And third final theory is Taln, like the other two theories, is still bonded to his blade, someone took it a random lighteye or a secret society, but nevertheless once Taln calls to his blade the blade will appear in his hands. As of right now, besides of direct shard intervention, Old magic, Hermalurgic, and maybe Feruchemy there is no way to steal a bond. And the secret societies would not have a shard on their side, access to Old magic, and wouldn't have the ability to spike a blade. Taln in the books never had the chance to summon his blade because he has been crazy/recovering from torture for all of book two and most of book three, and during book three's final battle he was hiding from the battle.

[MountainKing]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

Szeth says that Taln's blade disappeared long ago. I think he simply took it. Itlf it were not held at the time, all he'd need do is pick it up, and considering it is a blade created for him by Honor, I highly doubt he would see it as theft. 

 

Do you mean Nale?

Sorry for the double post, but I don't know how to edit in a quote from another post after already posting a post.

 

[Calderis he/him]

Just for clarification on the Honorblades. First the bond is shallower. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible(in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

source

Next that an Honorblade must be willed away. 

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.

source

And next Honorblades still grant the order resonance. 

Quote

Ray745

You have stated that each Knights Radiant order gets their own unique ability, for lack of a better word, due to the combination of their surges. For instance, you have stated this ability for the Windrunners is strength of squires. My question - is this due to the Nahel bond, or just inherent in the surges combining. Would a non-Radiant get these abilities from the Honorblades, or would they be out of luck due to no Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! The unique abilities have more to do with the powers interacting, same as how twinborn will often manifest some odd side effects of the powers interacting. But there are limitations. For example, Jezrien didn't actually have any squires, as none of the Heralds did.

source

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Calderis

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

@Calderis I respect you greatly , your understanding on most things in the cosmere surpasses my own. But, I never said the Oathpact was broken. I meant the Heralds abandoned there blades because had they not done so there blades would have transported them back to Braise. it’s a theory but it’s the only one that makes sense.

I understand Honorblades are not like shardblades; the.chief difference is you have to will them to disappear and they don’t have gemstones. I still think they have to will the bond to be broken, which is what they did in WoK.

Since Honorblades are not as efficient I propose it probably takes longer to bond one . If u can bond a shardblade in a week or two then a Honorblade might take as long as a month. Once a bond is established I see no reason a shamanate master can’t loan one to a student . Similar to how shardblades vanish if u drop them but Adolin willed maya to go with the Theylan captain . Or Shallan loaned her shardblade out to someone in OB . I think Adolin is a better example since his blade is dead, and should disappear when he released it. I speculate shamanate master can loan out there bonded blade to allow pupils to train with them. 

 

I think Szeth attained the mastership over the wind runner blade so when he was declared truthless they let him take it.

Szeth bond was broken when Kaladin killed him

Finally we don’t know the blade never made it to the plains. It could of made it their and was swapped by the ghost bloods before it was presented to Dalinar.

Iyatil and Amaram and Wit all knew Taln was really a herald way before Dalinar learned the truth. So she is my best guess as to being the thief.

as much as I love your theories , this is one time we just disagree.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Forgive me if I repeat something already said.

Actually, the idea that Taln could still be bonded to the HB is an interesting point. We have WoB that Hoid didn't do the switch. But what if Hoid did drop a Shardblade to make the guards assume they had the Blade and not pester Taln? Technically the WoB is still correct since there was no switch.

 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I meant the Heralds abandoned there blades because had they not done so there blades would have transported them back to Braise. it’s a theory but it’s the only one that makes sense.

I think in the event the Heralds survived, they had to kill themselves to return personally. Just as dying now would still send them back. 

If they did die the blade would go with them. 

4 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

as much as I love your theories , this is one time we just disagree.

You don't need to apologize. We're here for discussion. Not to "win."

Edit: @WhiteLeeopard now that is an interesting idea I have not heard or considered... 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Calderis

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Random question, when is OB board getting merged with SA board?

[Subvisual Haze]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

What if Taln still has his blade.

So honorblades don't disappear when dismiss, so what stopping a random lighewye from seeing this crazy darkeye with a nice looking honorblade, and decides that this honorblade looks better than theirs so they will just make a switch and call it a day. But Taln still bonded to the blade, so the lighteye would realize that he can't bond with it via gem, but he also wouldn't get the surges because Taln is still bonded.

This theory does have flaws in it like why would someone go to such an extreme risk just because of how a blade looks, so another theory is that while Taln was crazy he accidentally dismissed the blade. Whoever watching Taln wouldn't know how honorblades work so he would think someone stole the blade, so he gets a random blade, maybe one of the king's blades that wasn't taken to the Shattered Plains, and hopes no one notices it. 

And third final theory is Taln, like the other two theories, is still bonded to his blade, someone took it a random lighteye or a secret society, but nevertheless once Taln calls to his blade the blade will appear in his hands. As of right now, besides of direct shard intervention, Old magic, Hermalurgic, and maybe Feruchemy there is no way to steal a bond. And the secret societies would not have a shard on their side, access to Old magic, and wouldn't have the ability to spike a blade. Taln in the books never had the chance to summon his blade because he has been crazy/recovering from torture for all of book two and most of book three, and during book three's final battle he was hiding from the battle.

Yeah I think the answer to this question is the most simple one: Taln has Taln's honorblade.  It is wherever bonded shardblades go when they are unsummoned by the person they are bonded to.

The other Heralds all purposefully gave up their blades.  Taln eventually "broke" after millenia of torture, but we have no indication that he has abandoned his duty.  It stands to reason that Taln is still bonded to his blade and has it in magical storage.

I'm guessing Hoid subbed in a different shardblade to redirect suspicion (as multiple witnesses likely saw Taln carrying a shardblade).  Why he would want to do that is a complete mystery to me though.  Such is Hoid and his inscrutable goals.

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Random question, when is OB board getting merged with SA board?

9 months after release

*ahem*

[CrazyRioter she/her]

4 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Yeah I think the answer to this question is the most simple one: Taln has Taln's honorblade.  It is wherever bonded shardblades go when they are unsummoned by the person they are bonded to.

The other Heralds all purposefully gave up their blades.  Taln eventually "broke" after millenia of torture, but we have no indication that he has abandoned his duty.  It stands to reason that Taln is still bonded to his blade and has it in magical storage.

I'm guessing Hoid subbed in a different shardblade to redirect suspicion (as multiple witnesses likely saw Taln carrying a shardblade).  Why he would want to do that is a complete mystery to me though.  Such is Hoid and his inscrutable goals.

I think we have WoB that Hoid was not responsible.