Argent Posted April 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2014 We don't actually know how the whole "sent back to Damnation" thing works, so I would try to stay away from conclusions based on related assumptions. What if a Herald gets blown to smithereens during one of the Desolations - what would get sent to Braize? Their spirit? Their body restored by one of the Shards (because I don't see anything less being able to put a body together after it has been blown up by the magical equivalent of a landmine)? Their mind? Memories? A part of their realmatic aspects ripped away from them and kept in a magical box somewhere, to ensure their eventual return? Most of those scenarios would deal with the Honorblades' bonds differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconite Posted April 8, 2014 Report Share Posted April 8, 2014 Heralds don't die like normal people though. They're just sent for torture to Braize. So the bond isn't ever cut, really. That's also why Honorblades disappear instead of dropping when their Herald dies – the Blade is off in Damnation with them. When Szeth is killed, he's truly killed, so the Blade drops like any other Shardblade. How do you know this though? The only reference I know of is in the prelude to tWoK - where Kalak mentions something along the lines of "he'd been killed by a creature like that before, it wasn't pleasant, of course dying never was"... I don't think it would make sense for the heralds to have their blades with them in damnation... you want to give individuals with investiture an invested sword and surges while in damnation? it'd be pretty hard to torture them when they have their honorblades you'd think... of course I guess it could make sense as to why desolations are brought on - when one of the heralds gets tired of the torture, they could elsecall out (for example)... I'll take a read off Argent and not try to draw conclusions from it, but I still think something odd is happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted April 8, 2014 Report Share Posted April 8, 2014 Earlier in the thread it's stated that the person at the gates and the person brought to the warcamps in the same. Some direct WoB: Q: Are the Heralds actually aware that Taln is back?A: Are the Heralds aware that Taln is back? Uh, you're implying that this person actually is Taln. Which is not guaranteed. It's not guaranteed. However, the return of the Voidbringers does indeed indicate to them, in their mind, that he would have returned. Q: So they assume because the Voidbringers are returning--A: Because the Voidbringers are returning, would be a clue to them that Taln has returned. Ok, so let's say that the person at the gate is not Taln. Then we have an important thing to consider: when did the real Taln arrive!? As best as I can tell, we'd have no Voidbringers without Taln returning. We may not have all the facts but it seems like a good bet that the real Taln had to have returned already, somewhere. So... pick a date? How about 6-7 years ago. It seems a bunch of KR spren felt that the Voidbringers were about to return starting from that time and started looking for humans to bond with. PS the KR spren that we've seen so far really weren't that keen on bonding. Unsurprisingly, given what happened in the past. So unless there's some oddball KR spren that kept on bonding, it's probably been 1000s of years since we had even basic Surgebinders (apart from the Heralds). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poolboy Posted April 8, 2014 Report Share Posted April 8, 2014 Sorry haven't read every comment in the thread but has it been mentioned that the Taln in the warcamp could be someone lightweaving themselves as Taln? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wherethewindgoes Posted April 8, 2014 Report Share Posted April 8, 2014 Sorry haven't read every comment in the thread but has it been mentioned that the Taln in the warcamp could be someone lightweaving themselves as Taln? No one's identifying him by appearance, though, because they don't know what he would look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poolboy Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I was thinking more along the lines of that is how Dalinar's servant could have been fooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 But Taln thinks he's Taln, so why would he lightweave himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poolboy Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I'm saying Taln in the warcamp is someone posing as Taln using lightweaving. Taln is still in the capital and has been replaced with someone from one of the secret societies. Kaladin will find him in the next book. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) The person who arrived at the gates of Kholinar is the same person who arrived at the warcamps, per WoB. And we saw his PoV in WoR, and he clearly thinks of himself as Taln. Edited April 9, 2014 by RShara 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) The person who arrived at the gates of Kholinar is the same person who arrived at the warcamps, per WoB. And we saw his PoV in WoR, and he clearly thinks of himself as Taln. No..he doesn't think it. He says it, but he doesn't think it. "He just stares like that, Your Majesty." Words "He doesn't seem to see anything. Sometimes he mumbles. Sometimes he shouts. But always, he just stares." The Gift and words. Not his. Never his. Now his. The words were not his, never his, now his. And then this line. "Elhokar, look at him. I doubt he understands." "I am Talenal'Elin, Herald of War." Voice. He spoke it. He didn't think it. The words came, like they always came. That seems to imply that it's not him consciously speaking. Hmm. I've got an idea. Of fires that burned and yet they were gone. Of heat he could feel when others felt not. Of screams his own that nobody heard. Of torture sublime, for life it meant. Words The Gift and words. Not his. Never his. Now his. Why didn't they scream? That heat! Of death. Of death and the dead and the dead and their talking and not screaming of death except of the death that did not come. They were on fire. The walls were on fire. The floor was on fire. Burning and the inside of a cannot where to be and then at all. Where? A trip? Water? Wheels? Fire. Yes, fire. Voice. He spoke it. He didn't think it. The words came, like they always came. How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? Too long. I don't trust anything that he is saying out loud. Here is a transcription of everything that he doesn't say. The Taln perspective, without other character dialogue, and without any Herald dialogue. Look at this chapter compared to any other chapter. Three very distinct characters conversing. First line in the chapter of dialogue identifies the King "He just stares like that, Your Majesty." Words. No, 'Bordin said.' No 'Elhokar responded.' We don't know Dalinar is there until Bordin uses the "Brightlord" honorific, and then the person in question addresses Elhokar by name. Most importantly, there is no "Taln said." Even in the book, Brandon is absolutely refusing to refer to him as Taln, other than in the chapter title. Edited April 9, 2014 by EMTrevor 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Mraize Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I'm sure it's been validated, but since Syl can change the shape of Kal's blade, is it possible that Taln wanted his blade to be needle shaped at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Unlikely. Honorblades are not "made of" spren, they are much more like Nightblood - actual physical weapons full of magic - than like Shardblades in that regard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Mraize Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Unlikely. Honorblades are not "made of" spren, they are much more like Nightblood - actual physical weapons full of magic - than like Shardblades in that regard. I figured, but I thought it was odd how Kalak describes the blades as being works of art, and then Taln shows up with a spike like blade. Just doesn't seem to match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Talenel is also the Herald of War, it makes sense for his Honorblade to be more... brutal. Primal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terra of Roshar Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 But Jezrien's Honorblade is plain, too, and he's the Herald of Kings, so one would assume he would get a fancy blade. Kaladin even makes note of it: "What about this? he asked, looking over the thin, silvery weapon. An unornamented Blade. That was supposed to be odd.WoR p. 1044 So maybe Honorblades can change shape? Though the "works of art" description in the prelude was from before Jezrien had added his Blade to the circle, so I suppose those two Blades could be outliers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 They can, but it's not supposed to be a dramatic change. Small variations in size, mostly so they fit their wielder's style better - and if they can change size a little bit, then surely they can remove (or add) ornamentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poolboy Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 We know the "Taln" from the city is the same one who is now in the warcamp but we have no real proof he is the herald Taln. The way he only has a few phrases he says over and over almost makes them seem like implanted memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 We never saw Taln dying, only Jezrien claiming it happened. Perhaps there's something even in Prelude of WoK to foreshadow what current Taln's true identity will turn out to be, and what happened to the real Talenel. He used a different variation of the Herald of War's name, not the one Shallan was accustomed to. I wonder if this has any significance to it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 We know the "Taln" from the city is the same one who is now in the warcamp but we have no real proof he is the herald Taln. The way he only has a few phrases he says over and over almost makes them seem like implanted memories.Or a Hoed mantra, because he was just in Damnation for more than four thousand years (presumably several times longer than he's ever been in one stretch before), carrying the burden of all ten Heralds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 He used a different variation of the Herald of War's name, not the one Shallan was accustomed to. I wonder if this has any significance to it. I don't think so. The name Shallan was familiar with, Talenelat'Elin, is how Taln is known in Vorinism. Almost all of the Heralds' names have been twisted into symmetry in the last few thousand years, so they sound holier to Vorin followers. Jezerezeh, Talenelat, Vedeledev, Nalan, Shalash, etc - they are symmetric versions of the Heralds' original names, with the 'Elin suffix added, likely to mark their names as Heraldic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Re-reading the epilogue of WoK, in light of this thread, I find it quite interesting that Wit's story about what people value most is whoever creates something and presents it to the world first. Combine that with what he says in the Gibletish chapter (tearing a man down apart and rebuilding him bit by bloody fleshy bit). I guess my real question is: Is the trigger for the Desolation Taln leaving Damnation? Or him arriving on Roshar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eri Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 We know the "Taln" from the city is the same one who is now in the warcamp How do we know that? I don't think we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 How do we know that? I don't think we do. We have WoB that they are the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 What if shortly after his epilogue in WoK, Hoid got Taln lucid enough to unsummon his Honorblade? And then Hoid or someone else supplied him with a normal Shardblade, possibly one that Hoid himself had secreted away. Any discrepancies between the gate guard's descriptions of the Blade and the one that is eventually delivered could be disregarded simply as eyewitness failure. It might even work with the WoB "Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question." because no one would have actually taken away Taln's Honorblade in that case, he just has it currently dismissed. It depends how crafty Brandon felt like being with his wording. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted April 13, 2014 Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 alrite people I have a crackpot theory which has pretty much no evidence and is prob totally wrong, What if taln is nalan and nalan is taln? and taln is controlling nalan? it says taln has a scar aswel, using skybreakers how he is as a way of gettin bk at nalan for leaving him in damnation,while killing possible kr from other hearlds orders to punish all of them? he is "after" the stone shaman (stonewards) because they havent fulfilled there ideals being "resolve, strength and realibility" have no proof and what I said is flimsy at best but struck me as possible, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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