[Theory] The Voidbringers Explained

[Argent he/him]

Right. It could be Smokeform - it did create an Thunderclast, after all, and I hypothesized that it's possible that the Thunderclasts are created using the anti-Transformation Void. This would make this escort a Voidbringer of the anti-Lightweaver flavor.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

So under this system, all Voidbinders are Parshendi, and humans are incapable of it, like how Parshendi can't Surgebind?

[Argent he/him]

Yes. Humans have access to Surges, Parshendi have access to Voids. 

[MASSHOLE]

Parshendi with stormform summoned the everstorm which will be sweeping across the land, correct? What if the everstorm will wake up the parshmen from whatever close to dull or subserviant state they are in, maybe allowing them to find other forms to then call upon the voidbringers? I could be way off, but Jasnah and Shallan seemed to be very concerned about the parshmen - they did not want them to be on the journey to the center of the plains, what was it they were worried about? More than seeing their 'cousins' fighting/dying. I think everyone is so concerned with the Parshendi and their new stormform you may be missing the bigger picture.

 

Who knows. First time poster. Be kind

[duladen he/him]

Right. It could be Smokeform - it did create an Thunderclast, after all, and I hypothesized that it's possible that the Thunderclasts are created using the anti-Transformation Void. This would make this escort a Voidbringer of the anti-Lightweaver flavor.

 

To add to this, aren't the Midnight Essence filled with smoke? I think these two visions from Dalinar provide decent evidence that Smokeform is associated with anti-Transformation. However, the two KR orders with access to Transformation have Oil and Blood as their essences. Not sure what to make of that.

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

 

So under this system, all Voidbinders are Parshendi, and humans are incapable of it, like how Parshendi can't Surgebind?

Yes. Humans have access to Surges, Parshendi have access to Voids. 

We as of yet have no confirmation that humans can't bond voidspren and parshendi can't bond radiant spren. When asked about parshendi bonding radiant spren, Brandon quite notedly avoids saying no and instead usually says that parshmen were not traditionally made radiants. Sounds to me that he is leaving the door open for that to change, perhaps Eshonai or Rlain actually becoming a radiant at some point.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[duladen he/him]

So under this system, all Voidbinders are Parshendi, and humans are incapable of it, like how Parshendi can't Surgebind?

 

I touched on this in another thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6865-theory-potential-willshapers/?p=114836

 

Essentially, if the three methods of access magic on Roshar are Old Magic, Surgebinding, and Voidbringing, then maybe these are divided among the three humanoid beings we have seen. Aimian = Old Magic, Human = Surgebinding, Listener = Voindbringing. Each method would be granted based on your sDNA, and would have 10 parallel abilities.

[Grayv he/him]

I kind of wish we knew what happened to the riverspren when the thunderclast appeared. I believe it is said that voidbringers can hold Stormlight perfectly within their body. could it be the Stormlight in the highstorms that allow the listeners to change form? If so, could they, while holding Stormlight, change without a highstorm?

[Argent he/him]

... ... ...

 

I think Jasnah's and Shallan's concerns stem mostly from how little they know about the single species that is the Parshendi / parshmen. They seem to assume that the two are cousin races of some sort, or that the parshmen are just kind of laying low, waiting for something before they turn into Parshendi or Voidbringers. 

 

 

... ... ...

 

I haven't looked at the essences at all. I might some day.

 

 

... ... ...

 

Right, I was explaining my theory, not the cosmere lore. I don't think there can be mixing between the two magic systems.

 

If so, could they, while holding Stormlight, change without a highstorm?

 

That's the fun part. One of The Way of Kings epigraphs contains a transcript of something one of the Radiants supposedly said. The words amount to something like "they changed even as we were fighting them." So unless the Radiants of old really wanted to fight during highstorms, the Voidbringers must have had a way to change forms on demand. Charging themselves up during the last highstorm, holding the Stormlight for potentially days, and using it up when they need to switch forms sounds like a very plausible explanation to me.

[Windrunning he/him]

Argent, you're a genius. I can definetly see this being the truth.

[adbf he/him]

Please bear with me, I'm around here from too soon a time, while the main material to base upon here is from WoK and likely was discussed and dissected a lot. Now for me the first interpretation for the rear endsheet of WoK, for the first glance more likely than the more exotic voidish interpretation, would depicting rather a diagram of Spren politics in Shadesmar. So, please, is there strong evidence against the Spren Politics interpretation so that we have to move to a more exotic reading?

 

Because it seems... well, after all the color scheme and especially the frame with the woman dressed as Vorin lighteye matches exactly the map of Shadesmar. The coloring matches in the same time the feeling of strange twilight in Shadesmar, and the colors of the gems associated with the 3 orders of Radiants particularly responsible for contacts with Shadesmar - zircon, garnet and amethyst. The glyphs correspond well to the glyphs of the Radiants diagram, because spren are what make the difference between the orders, and therefore spren peoples and orders must correspond exactly and there is good reasons for them to be described by the same glyph. It seems, that the glyphs are exactly the same to those in the Radiants diagram, but in a different calligraphic style. Such difference can be seen e.g. between the both variations of the "bridge four" glyph - on the badge, and the element in the tattoo. The style in the tattoo seems to be rather in the style used in the rear endsheet.

 

(by the way the glyph on the endsheet corresponding to Dustbringers is the same as the glyph in the four corners of the frame of the Kharbranth illustration. Since Kharbranth is ancient city proud for heritage from a Silver Kingdom, and the Silver kingdoms were associated with different Heralds and orders, there is a reason for Kharbranth to be historically symbolized by a Radiant glyph, but I don't see a reason for a voidish symbol to be there.)

 

The lightnings between the glyphs - Honorspren have a tension with the Cryptics, and obviously with their Stormfather, who is a Bondsmith's spren. And also Syl mentioned being not a highspren almost in the tone as for being not a cryptic. And we see lightnings connecting honorspren with cryptics, highspren and Bondsmith's spren. Lightning is a pretty good symbol for tension.

 

So why isn't the endsheet a depiction of the relation between the peoples of Shadesmar?

[Argent he/him]

Argent, you're a genius. I can definetly see this being the truth.

 

While I am flattered, you probably don't need 5 posts to tell me this

 

@adbf, the politics venue hasn't been explored much from what I've seen. I personally don't think it's as likely.

[Eejit]

 

I think it mirrors the Surgebinding chart far too closely for this to be the case. If I read the songs epigraphs right, the Parshendi had no form other than dullform and slaveform before their "gods" helped them out. Some of the forms they gave them were pretty safe, presumably because they didn't come stuffed with power - warform, for example; others gave the listeners power similar to the Surges human Surgebinders had access to, but cost them their freedom, essentially - see stormform. So I don't think any forms could've predated Odium's arrival.

 

The Parshendi may not have had other forms before their "gods" helped them out, but that doesn't mean their gods can't pre-date Odium either. The Unmade could have been their gods who were then subverted from Cultivation by Rayse, then with new Odium-spren added new EvilForms.

 

Why would any form originating with Odium not have the cruel rhythms we see with Stormform? Why would any of his forms have a Rhythm of Peace to attune to?

 

No, the "standard" forms pre-date Odium's influence. 

Whether they're actually represented on that diagram isn't as clear - it being a mirror of the Surgebinding diagram has indications both ways: association with magic and association vs association with two different Shards.

[Argent he/him]

Fair enough, it's possible that the Parshendi gods predate Odium. I will look into the lore to see if anything contradicts this, and if not - will update the original theory.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

We as of yet have no confirmation that humans can't bond voidspren and parshendi can't bond radiant spren. When asked about parshendi bonding radiant spren, Brandon quite notedly avoids saying no and instead usually says that parshmen were not traditionally made radiants. Sounds to me that he is leaving the door open for that to change, perhaps Eshonai or Rlain actually becoming a radiant at some point.

 

"'And what if one of them was a Surgebinder,' Kaladin said. 'With his own Honorspren?'

(Syl:)'Parshendi can't be become Surgebin–'"

Not concrete confirmation, as characters can be unreliable, but still pretty close. That's not to say there isn't an Honorform or something similar: the talk about "blending their surges to ours" certain seems to indicate that, as well as the talk of the spren betraying them over the brothiness of the Parshendi. But I don't think they can become Surgebinders as we see it in humans. The "traditionally" bit could be saying that Honorform Parshendi were not counted as fellow Radiants.

[Trevalion]

I think the structure of this theory nicely puts together what we already know and should be the working voidbinding theory. But we have so little info now, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in arguing too hard for which forms fit where or which unmade are the equivalent of heralds for each order until the next book.

[Rlain]

Since the Parshendi have more forms than just the VoidForms, do we want to consider the possibility that humans can form Nahel bonds with ordinary spren and gain something from it.  

 

In a similar way to how the Parshendi change in both the physical and the cognitive realm when they bond with spren to gain their non-void forms, maybe a human forming a bond with a creationspren would have impacts on the cognitive parts of humans (though it appears we don't get anything in the physical realm from them)

[Argent he/him]

Since the Parshendi have more forms than just the VoidForms, do we want to consider the possibility that humans can form Nahel bonds with ordinary spren and gain something from it.  

 

In a similar way to how the Parshendi change in both the physical and the cognitive realm when they bond with spren to gain their non-void forms, maybe a human forming a bond with a creationspren would have impacts on the cognitive parts of humans (though it appears we don't get anything in the physical realm from them)

 

I don't think so. The Parshendi need those "basic" forms (e.g. artform and mateform) to perform tasks we, as humans, can either do naturally (ahem, mate) or can be trained to do (art). It almost looks like the Parshendi have a very small cognitive aspect of their own and need to temporarily bond with different spren in order to be "complete," Realmatically speaking. The voidforms are different, however, they are "forms of power" - forms that allow them to access some Surge-like powers. On top of that, those forms come from spren whose Investiture is from Odium, which could explain why he is able to take over any Parshendi who take on those new forms; if the Parshendi have no, or very little, cognitive presence, them bonding with a voidspren would result in a large amount of... Odium's cognitive presence, in the form of his spren, merging with their own. Taking over, usually.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Argent

[Crysanja]

WoB Parshendi can become KR - it is just very unlikely and never happend.

[Argent he/him]

WoB Parshendi can become KR - it is just very unlikely and never happend.

 

I assume you are referring to the Houston signing? Because those are the relevant questions:

 

---

Q: How about the other way around? Can a Parshendi bond a KR spren?

A: Historically, the Parshendi were not made Knights Radiant, or the parshmen weren't.

 

Q: Can they become squires maybe?

A: Historically they did not, but it's not impossible.

---

 

So the verdict on the Parshendi manipulating the ten Surges is still a no-no. A Radiant Squire, from what we have seen, is just a person who can draw in Stormlight - they can't necessarily do anything with it, just use its passive benefits (strength, speed, healing). 

 

As I see it, my theory stands!

[Isomere]

I like the theory, great work fleshing it out. However, I suspect the Voidbringers may be more powerful than these stormform Parshmen.

There were thousands of the voidish anger spren found within a matter of days. I believe these correspond to the mindless windspren of Honor that do not have the ability to Nahel-bond. The Parshmen just seem too much like foot soldiers or maby KR squires to me. Summoning the everstorm could be argued as Voidbinding, but since it is a novel use of power it must not have been one of the surges used by the original Voidbinders. It also took 10,000 Parshmen bonded and acting in unison to accomplish. Consider what could be accomplished with the investiture in 10,000 windspren.

There could be a second tier of Voidspren with much more investiture. Spren that can actually gain sentience in the physical world. I suspect these will be bound to the Unmade, dead shredded souls that Odium has enslaved. When one of these souls takes possession of a living body they become a voidbringer.

[Argent he/him]

I don't know, that new highstorm is some pretty bad mojo. It could take all of them singing to create it - and their numbers could explain why there is no record of another Everstorm in the past.

[Vortaan he/him]

I don't know, that new highstorm is some pretty bad mojo. It could take all of them singing to create it - and their numbers could explain why there is no record of another Everstorm in the past.

 

Sorry, not understanding this. You're saying that the Last Legion's descendents, who were already fighting a war where they were being annihilated, have less numbers than they did before? I would imagine that the population of Listeners is probably at one of it's lowest points ever at this point.

[Argent he/him]

I don't know, the timeline is confusing... If we look at the last Desolation, the one from 4,500 years ago, we have two very different accounts about what happened to the Voidbringers. In one version of the story the Bondsmiths figured out a way to take away the Voidbringers' spren, turning them into slaveform. In another the Last Legion voluntarily chose to abandon the forms of power given by their gods and embrace only dullform (and mateform) in order to regain their freedom. My guess is that both of those things happened, only in different places - i.e. the humans weren't even aware of the Last Legion (which probably settled in the lands of Natanatan). I think Stormseat must have been destroyed after this time and the Parshendi must have been blamed for it somehow - which means the humans knew about them, but if they knew about them, why would they let them remain free instead of claiming them for parshmen? 

 

I am sorry, I can't put the information we have in a coherent enough timeline even in my own head, and I can't start arguing history and populations before I do. 

[Vortaan he/him]

I don't know, the timeline is confusing... If we look at the last Desolation, the one from 4,500 years ago, we have two very different accounts about what happened to the Voidbringers. In one version of the story the Bondsmiths figured out a way to take away the Voidbringers' spren, turning them into slaveform. In another the Last Legion voluntarily chose to abandon the forms of power given by their gods and embrace only dullform (and mateform) in order to regain their freedom. My guess is that both of those things happened, only in different places - i.e. the humans weren't even aware of the Last Legion (which probably settled in the lands of Natanatan). I think Stormseat must have been destroyed after this time and the Parshendi must have been blamed for it somehow - which means the humans knew about them, but if they knew about them, why would they let them remain free instead of claiming them for parshmen? 

 

I am sorry, I can't put the information we have in a coherent enough timeline even in my own head, and I can't start arguing history and populations before I do. 

 

But it's a safe assumption that the army that Dalinar and company faced on the Shattered Plains was probably smaller than Listener armies at the beginnings of Desolations, right? Unless every Desolation starts with the Listeners trying to prevent their gods coming back, killing a king, and getting slaughtered. We know from Eshonai's viewpoints that on the scale of armies at the time, the Parshendi are at pretty much their breaking point. Even considering the extra Parshendi that took stormform, I doubt their overall numbers equal a pre-Desolation population. Admittedly, if the various forms other than stormform are more powerful, I can see why maybe not enough Listeners took on the form, and thus they never saw the potential for an Everstorm.