[OB] There's something - or someone - missing

[Leyrann]

"Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."

"We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind."

The Nightwatcher, the Sibling, the Stormfather.

Spren, stone, storm.

And:

Unite them. A voice whispered the words in Dalinar's mind, echoing with the same resonant sound from months ago, when Dalinar had first started seeing the visions.
"I'm doing so," Dalinar whispered back.
Unite them.
"Stormfather, is that you? Why do you keep saying this to me?"
I said nothing.

"I am Unity."

He dipped his pen again. "Would you close the balcony doors again, gemheart?" he asked her. "The sunlight is distracting me from the other light."
"Other light?"
(...)
As Navani shut the balcony doors, he closed his eyes and felt the warmth of a distant, unseen light.

(there's another mention of the distant, unseen light, but I only have a physical copy and I can't find it)

 

There is always another secret. They may not be the arc words of the Stormlight Archive, but they certainly are arc words of the Cosmere. Brandon also likes working with arc numbers; 16 on Scadrial, and 10 on Roshar. Ten, however, does not seem to be the only arc number of Stormlight Archive. There is also Odium's 9, but 3 is also a recurring number; spren, stone, storm. Nightwatcher, Sibling, Stormfather. Cultivation, Odium (?), Honor. Mishim, Nomon, Salas. Ashyn, Braize, Roshar.

So, what's my point?

Well, Odium doesn't fit. Why would a spren of Odium be a Bondsmith spren? Why would Odium be related to stone, while coming thousands of years after the others? Most importantly, consider the two epigraphs. The Eila Stele, which talks about the first Desolation, before the singers turned to Odium, talks about three gods: spren, stone and wind. The Death Rattle tells us "Three of sixteen ruled; Now the Broken One reigns."

Unless this Death Rattle is foreshadowing a multishard (which would be scary, with a name like that), it's referring to Odium as the Broken One, which implies he is not one of the three who ruled. The Eila Stele implies similar: there were three gods before Odium showed up.

So, uhm, where did that last shard go?

Odium's prison.

In Mistborn, Preservation almost completely blocks Ruin from influencing the world. However, that means that he himself can barely influence the world as well. Now compare that with Cultivation and Honor: Cultivation has been shown to appear, subtly influencing plans, but still to a degree Preservation was not able to do after creating the prophecies. Additionally, it is commonly believed she is also behind the Diagram, and may even be behind Taravangian's "prophet" day, altering and correcting the Diagram. Honor, as well, is known to have interacted substantially with the Knights Radiant, plus we have this quote, implying Honor as well had freedom:

"Ships?" he [Dalinar] whispered. "They sailed during the storm?
He controls it, the Stormfather said, (...). He uses it, as Honor once used me.

The situation is, of course, different, as we know this battle as two shards against one. However, we also know by WoB that the actual power of a shard is infinite, and two times infinite versus infinite is still, in a way, equal. That's why another shard has to be Odium's prison.

Now that we're done with the sensible theorizing, let's get to the crazy theorizing. Yes, I called that earlier stuff sensible.

I am going to propose that this last shard is the shard of Unity, as predicted through The Fundamental Surges Part II: The Shards and a follow-up post I made on it. This shard, due to it's nature, is like the soul or mind of Adonalsium, stripped of it's power. The... centerpiece of Adonalsium, you might say. I also believe that Odium has partially freed himself somehow - perhaps similar to how Ruin was still subtly influencing the world, but over a longer timescale. On one hand, this is what allows Odium to appear to Dalinar and "ride the storm", on the other hand this is why Dalinar gets the vision with Nohadon, putting him back on track, as well as why he feels the "distant, unseen light"; with Odium partially free, Unity is not completely locked anymore either.

Alternatively (and we've gone beyond crazy theorizing now), Odium may have killed Unity's Vessel without splintering the shard, and this is what his "we killed you" is about.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Leyrann
I always notice typos only after posting... x10 (let's hope we're done with reaching that arc number...)

[Storyspren]

Thank you for writing this. I always love a good theory and I'm starved for cosmere at the moment.

The best quote in its favor seems to me to be this one: "We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind."

I could read that quote as declaring spren, stone, and wind to represent three distinct Gods referred to as "ours." (Which really would imply that any foreign god would be a fourth).

However, "the broken one reigns" could refer to one of the three immediately previously referenced, so I find that less strong.

Some of the Dalinar stuff speaks in favor of SOME radical theory or other but none in particular. (I'm thinking either 'Honor's not dead', or 'Dalinar is super old' here but really any crazy theory.)

That said here's why I'm against this:

Three shards on one world is already enough. The more shards per world there are the less cool Sanderson worlds there are. So I'm against a four shard world.

The Oath Pact seems to have SOMETHING to do with imprisoning Odium and I don't see how that can be so on this fourth shard theory.

The whole unite them thing seems to be applying to items wider and wider in scope to Dalinar. Ultimately at the end of Stormbringer he unites the realms themselves. But that's still not what the voice(s) want. Uniting at least two shards seems to be in the offing. Four would be tantamount to all though.

My super not so secret pet theory is that Noadon took up Honor's power when Tanavast died (or before) and that Noadon is the dude talking to Dalinar keeping the Stormfather out of the loop because Stormfather is actually sketch. Then what Dalinar's supposed to unite on the theory is Cultivation and Odium. Which is actually what Odium wants but secretly Noadon(sp) has already made Dalinar Honor, mirroring Vasher's big unexpected move that he uses twice in Warbreaker. So since your theory wouldn't fit neatly with that. I'm just going to reject it on that baseless reason.



 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Storyspren

[Leyrann]

6 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

Three shards on one world is already enough. The more shards per world there are the less cool Sanderson worlds there are. So I'm against a four shard world.

The thing is, we know that we are already aware of the most important Sanderson Worlds, plus he will have to kind of limit himself to be able to finish the Cosmere in his lifetime. And, well, I don't buy it that he's not gonna come with more mindblowing surprises later on in Stormlight Archive. Like, isn't the end of Well of Ascension the first time you hear about Ruin and Preservation? Of course, on reread hints are there, but that's the first time you actually hear about them, if it isn't early Hero of Ages.

8 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

The Oath Pact seems to have SOMETHING to do with imprisoning Odium and I don't see how that can be so on this fourth shard theory.

The Oathpact imprisons the Fused, not Odium.

11 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

My super not so secret pet theory is that Noadon took up Honor's power when Tanavast died (or before) and that Noadon is the dude talking to Dalinar keeping the Stormfather out of the loop because Stormfather is actually sketch. Then what Dalinar's supposed to unite on the theory is Cultivation and Odium. Which is actually what Odium wants but secretly Noadon(sp) has already made Dalinar Honor, mirroring Vasher's big unexpected move that he uses twice in Warbreaker. So since your theory wouldn't fit neatly with that. I'm just going to reject it on that baseless reason.

Well, we know that Honor is splintered, we've heard that from a dozen different sources.

As for Dalinar already being Honor, we know that if you gain enough power you don't have a physical body anymore...

[LerasiumMistborn]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

(there's another mention of the distant, unseen light, but I only have a physical copy and I can't find it)

Also I wrote about it on reddit recently so...I'd just copy my thought from the other discussion.

 

During previous discussion someone asked : "who exactly is telling Dalinar to unite them?", and got an answer : "Tanavast, obviously."

Are we sure about that? Dalinar has visions, which are actually Honor's memories. Records of past events. I understand how Honor "communicates" with Dalinar via these visions, as they're records, and Tanavast himself is dead and gone. BUT Dalinar is hearing a voice in his head, not only in visions, but in present time too. Who is talking to him and ordering to "unite them"? Did Tanavast left a Cognitive Shadow somehow? I'm not sure if he did. Stormfather is an obvious choice, BUT it's confirmed in OB that it's not him :

"Unite them

Stormfather, is that you? Why do you keep saying this to me?

I said nothing"

Ok, this is the first clue. Here is another one.

Several times in the book Dalinar feels "warmth and light", which is also confirmed to NOT be from Honor:

"Old friend", Dalinar said softly, “Honor might be dead, but I have felt… something else. Something beyond. A warmth and a light. It is not that God has died, it is that the Almighty was never God."

So "a warmth and a light coming from a place beyond". During OB's ending climax Dalinar summons Honor's Perpendicularity. We all thought, he just holds some Honor's power via his bond with the Stormfather, and that's why he's able to do so. However, there are some hints that something else happens there:

During this scene Dalinar has exactly the same experience. He feels this weird warmth (mind, not from Honor) again and then hears the voice telling him to "unite them" (presumable three Realms):

"Something stirred inside of Dalinar. A warmth that he had known once before. A warm, calming light.

Unite them

"I will take responsibility for what I have done," Dalinar whispered."

I don't want to say anything specific, but such hints are always important in Brandon's books. I believe, something else is going on with Dalinar, not just him being Connected to Honor's remnants via Stormfather.

Ah and one more thing. This is Odium talking with Dalinar in part 2. He claims that he killed Honor alone :

“You have been placed in a difficult position, my son,” Odium said. “You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god.”

Whom you killed.

Yes. I'll kill the other one too, eventually."

Later, in the end of the books Odium shouts : "WE killed you (presumable Honor...or not?).

Worth for speculations, I suppose:)

[stonedshaman]

Is it possible (I mean I highly doubt it) but is it possible that somewhere along the blackthorn days, Dalinar got spiked in a battle?  It has been ssidnthatvwe have seen someone on Roshar with hemalurgy

[RShara she/her]

6 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

Is it possible (I mean I highly doubt it) but is it possible that somewhere along the blackthorn days, Dalinar got spiked in a battle?  It has been ssidnthatvwe have seen someone on Roshar with hemalurgy

I think Dalinar would notice if he had a spike of metal embedded in his body And we get lots of PoVs from him, and there's no mention of it. Also, Hemalurgy would tend to drive most spren away from the person, so I don't think the SF would have been attracted to him if he were spiked.

@Leyrann Interesting theory. How do you reconcile it with Brandon saying there are three Shards on Roshar, though, with Odium being the third Shard?

Quote

Chaos (paraphrased)

How many Shards have existed on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Three.

source

Quote

Questioner

The line about "three of sixteen [ruled] and now the Broken One reigns" - did Odium follow three other Shards to Roshar or is he the third Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium is the third Shard on Roshar.

Footnote: The questioner is referring to the epigraph of Chapter 11 of The Way of Kings: "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."
source

 

[Leyrann]

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

How do you reconcile it with Brandon saying there are three Shards on Roshar, though, with Odium being the third Shard?

Uh, not?

Storm it, I'd have expected him to RAFO questions like that at the very least...

It still doesn't fit with the rule of threes though.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Leyrann

[stonedshaman]

RShara.  Good point.

[RShara she/her]

Sorry!

[Leyrann]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

Sorry!

I really should have checked but I was like "I've posited theories like this before (about a fourth Shard on Roshar) and never heard anything, plus Brandon would probably RAFO it". Should've just looked it up before wasting this...

We can still discuss why then 3 is an arc number, in particular in relation to the Eila Stele quote.

[MountainKing]

I actually think that storm-Stormfather land-Nightuwater, and spren-The Sibling, because The Sibling is the spren that allows Urithiru to function, and for the fabrial to grow things, work as elevators, keep the city warm, and a plumbing system you would need many different spren. So if the Sibling could handle all of those different functions it would make sense that they are the spren of spren.

[Journey Before Pancakes]

30 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

I actually think that storm-Stormfather land-Nightuwater, and spren-The Sibling, because The Sibling is the spren that allows Urithiru to function, and for the fabrial to grow things, work as elevators, keep the city warm, and a plumbing system you would need many different spren. So if the Sibling could handle all of those different functions it would make sense that they are the spren of spren.

Why are we associating the Nightwatcher with land?

Why would the third one be of spren and not like oceans or something?

Have we ever confirmed that Urithiru is actually the sibling?

This makes too many assumptions for me.

[RShara she/her]

11 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

Why are we associating the Nightwatcher with land?

Why would the third one be of spren and not like oceans or something?

Have we ever confirmed that Urithiru is actually the sibling?

This makes too many assumptions for me.

Yes, Urithiru's decline is related to the Sibling

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Does the deterioration of Urithiru have anything to do with the fact that the Sibling is asleep?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

Though the questioner sadly left Brandon a lot of wiggle room there, so it might not mean much lol

 

[Govir]

8 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Like, isn't the end of Well of Ascension the first time you hear about Ruin and Preservation?

Since I literally just reread this part of Mistborn (spoilers for Well of Ascension)

Spoiler

About halfway through WoA, TenSoon (as OreSeur) tells Vin that humans are of Ruin and kandra are of Preservation. I'm listening on Audiobook, but I think they are capitalized in the text. That's literally all we get about them in that scene though.

 

[Wandering Investor]

48 minutes ago, RShara said:

Though the questioner sadly left Brandon a lot of wiggle room there, so it might not mean much lol

The Radiant gemstone archives also seem to equate the failure of various tower systems in relation to the withdrawal of the Sibling. Still up to some interpretation, but seems pretty reliable that there is a connection.

[Journey Before Pancakes]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Yes, Urithiru's decline is related to the Sibling

 

That's totally not the same as Urithiru = the sibling though.

The sibling could have caused it without being Urithiru itself.

[MountainKing]

2 hours ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

Why are we associating the Nightwatcher with land?

Why would the third one be of spren and not like oceans or something?

Have we ever confirmed that Urithiru is actually the sibling?

This makes too many assumptions for me.

Because the Stornfather is obviously storm, and the Sibling is of spren because he seems to be the spren that allow Urithiru to function, and thus have to be able to replicate the ability of other spren as there are many types of fabrial on Roshar, and the Nightwatcher goes to because it's the last one left and she lives in a forest a vegetation, her form resembles plant life, and on Roshar plant life lives in the earth because of lack of soil.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I think @Leyrann has some interesting things going on here, even if it isn’t a Shard. The spren, wind and land are interesting, as is the general ”three” thing he talks of. Rock mentions something similar in his origin story of the Horneater Peaks in WoR. He speaks of the spren of the mountains and (I think) the spren of the forest and the winds. 

I think that the Sibling, Stormfather and Nightwatcher is the best explanation for this, and I guess that the Stormdaddy and the NW was just picked up by Shards, while the Sibling wasn’t. We know that Stormdaddy existed before Honor merged with him, and the Highstorms were a thing before the Shards came to Roshar, so I assume that all three major spren (Stormfather, Sibling and Nightwatcher) existed on Roshar before the Shattering. Stormfather and NW later became affiliated with Shards, but the Sibling didn’t, for some reason.

As for Dalinars warmth and light... there is far too little talk of that. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

The warmth and light... there are the visions of Dalinar and the voice that just don’t seem to make sense. I have an inkling of an idea, but only an inkling.

[stonedshaman]

Does that inkling have to do with the spiritual realm?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

And when can we take part of the inkling?

[Steeldancer he/him]

I'll make a thread about it, and yes- of course its the spiritual realm. That's my realmatic specialty. 

[Journey Before Pancakes]

2 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Because the Stornfather is obviously storm, and the Sibling is of spren because he seems to be the spren that allow Urithiru to function, and thus have to be able to replicate the ability of other spren as there are many types of fabrial on Roshar, and the Nightwatcher goes to because it's the last one left and she lives in a forest a vegetation, her form resembles plant life, and on Roshar plant life lives in the earth because of lack of soil.

"Storms" "Spren" and "Land" don't seem like a very related set of things though.

If they were like land, sea and skies, or; spiritual, physical and cognitive, I would be more on board. 

I don't see yours as a natural trio though, so it's not that convincing IMO.

[Kaladin Zahel]

Storms/Stormfather is the Vorin mythology. Spren/Nightwatcher is the Old Magic mythology. Stone/Sibling is the Shin mythology we know too little about.

It seems too convenient to think what we know so far is 100% accurate. Brandon loves to lie to us in his stories. So crazy theories may be more plausible than reasonable theories at this point.

1. What if the Sibling is in fact Odium's spren? Maybe Odium used it as a spy and somehow during the last desolation the KR finally realized it and had to put it down or capture and hide it. Perhaps the shattered plains was the setting for this event.

What if the Shin are actually ignorantly aiding Odium by 'securing' the honorblades from being used against him.

2. Craziest theory of them all, what if the Stormfather is Odium's spren and the Sibling is actually Honor's spren? The Stormfather helped bring about the Everstorm and is the one who is giving visions to encourage using a champion which Odium seems mock alarmed about but actually pleased about during his confrontation with Dalinar. The highstorms are a very divisive world mechanic and the Broken One fits with my  personal name for Odium: Segregation.

The Sibling is gone just as Honor himself is gone and the Shin people seem to be the most honor-bound human cultures on Roshar. The Sibling is seemingly at the center of business in Urithiru, basically KR HQ. Stone is the best Rosharan fit with Honor as nothing natural is as reliable and sturdy as stone. 

 

I have a feeling something is wrong with the religions as we know them on Roshar.

[Leyrann]

7 hours ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

"Storms" "Spren" and "Land" don't seem like a very related set of things though.

If they were like land, sea and skies, or; spiritual, physical and cognitive, I would be more on board. 

I don't see yours as a natural trio though, so it's not that convincing IMO.

They're a natural trio because they're considered the natural trio everywhere. An argument could also be made that they represent the Realms: Storms SR (they replenish Stormlight, which is pure investiture), Spren CR, Land PR. But the amount of times they're mentioned together in the books makes it clear that it's an important trio. The Eila Stele quote I mentioned is just one of them.

5 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

1. What if the Sibling is in fact Odium's spren? Maybe Odium used it as a spy and somehow during the last desolation the KR finally realized it and had to put it down or capture and hide it. Perhaps the shattered plains was the setting for this event.

In that case the Knights Radiant wouldn't be wondering about what was happening to Urithiru in the gemstones.

5 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

2. Craziest theory of them all, what if the Stormfather is Odium's spren and the Sibling is actually Honor's spren? The Stormfather helped bring about the Everstorm and is the one who is giving visions to encourage using a champion which Odium seems mock alarmed about but actually pleased about during his confrontation with Dalinar. The highstorms are a very divisive world mechanic and the Broken One fits with my  personal name for Odium: Segregation.

Then how could Dalinar possibly summon Honor's perpendicularity, or receive Honors visions?

Also, the Stormfather did not help bring about the Everstorm; all he tried was to wipe away the listeners (with the humans having the bad luck of being close to them).

And Odium was pleased about the champions because he was completely convinced he'd be able to bring Dalinar to his side. Now he's probably dead scared instead because, as he himself said, Dalinar never loses.

Oh by the way I very much disagree with calling Odium Segregation.

5 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

I have a feeling something is wrong with the religions as we know them on Roshar.

This I agree with. There's a lot of stuff wrong there, and it's all kind of sitting there in my head as I slowly build links, kind of like how this theory happened. In a while I might have another one focusing on good versus evil on Roshar.