[OB] Scadrial vs Roshar

[Fatikis]

49 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Any metal the spren have can't be pulled or pushed on, and they are immune to emotional allomancy. 

How do we know this? Not that it actually matters. None of that is a very big deal.

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They have perfect to near perfect gemstones, that will allow radiants to bring stormlight to Scadrail 

This is not a big deal. Radiants will have fun trying to get their spren offworld. 

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and they have machines that create physical objects by using investiture and cognitive aspect of objects, allowing the Rosharan forces to provide food and water for their troops. 

We have no idea how any of this works or the limitations placed on it.

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Cultivationspren can naturally "grow" objects from cognitive aspects of physical objects allowing the spren to quickly produce armour and weapons to fight against Scadrailian forces.

It allows them to quickly make inferior weapons and armor. Something that is not helpful.

You are also assuming that the majority of spren are going to side with Roshar. The spren seem to be mostly neutral and likely wouldn't care.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Fatikis

[MountainKing]

Most or all the metal the spren have has been created by cultivationspren or their machines. We know from Secret History that metal created from cognitive objects can't be burned so it can be assumed that the metal can't be pulled or pushed. All the spren will side with the radiants because the prompt says that all the nations of each world will work together, so the nation of spren will join forces with the rest of Roshar. Even if the radiants have problems with bringing their spren off world they still can hold off the Scadrialian forces.

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by MountainKing
Added an argument

[Fatikis]

1 minute ago, MountainKing said:

Most or all the metal the spren have has been created by cultivationspren or their machines. We know from Secret History that metal created from cognitive objects can't be burned so it can be assumed that the metal can't be pulled or pushed. 

False. We know that Kelsier as a cognitive shadow was unable to burn it. We have no idea if a physical being would be able to burn it.

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All the spren will side with the radiants because the prompt says that all the nations of each world will work together, so the nation of spren will join forces with the rest of Roshar. Even if the radiants have problems with bringing their spren off world they still can hold off the Scadrialian forces.

I would say including spren is a stretch, but I get it.

That being said Scadrians have experience with Aluminum already. They could almost certainly use this against spren.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

Any metal the spren have can't be pulled or pushed on, and they are immune to emotional allomancy. They have perfect to near perfect gemstones, that will allow radiants to bring stormlight to Scadrail and they have machines that create physical objects by using investiture and cognitive aspect of objects, allowing the Rosharan forces to provide food and water for their troops. Cultivationspren can naturally "grow" objects from cognitive aspects of physical objects allowing the spren to quickly produce armour and weapons to fight against Scadrailian forces.

Why would their metal be immune? Either its aluminum, invested, or its able to be effected. Powers work on the Cognitive Realm as long as the person who has them has a physical body. 

I don't know that the Spren would be immune emotional Allomancy... What's targeted by that in humans is also investiture, but the concentration should make them more resistant for sure. 

Yes they can grow objects in the Cognitive Realm that mimic things in the physical Wyndel grew chair's for instance, but we know nothing of their efficacy or speed of production. 

As to the devices that can make food and water they run on stormlight, and trying to sustain armies with those devices would be difficult as they are speed limited. The water they made took about half an hour to make a small cup.

And none of this counters the same issues that make the Scadrians dominate in the physical realm. Firepower. 

Edit: and the perfect gemstones... They hold light indefinitely sure. But that isn't limitless, and once it's used it's gone until recharged.

Edit 2: I understand your reasoning now, MountainKing, because of this quote. 

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We know from Secret History that metal created from cognitive objects can't be burned so it can be assumed that the metal can't be pulled or pushed. 

Why are you certain the bolt was a Cognitive object? I find it far more likely that the gear that Khriss and Nazh brought with them was brought from the Physical realm and that the person attempting to burn them had no access to the powers because they were a Cognitive Shadow without a physical aspect with which to manifest their powers. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Calderis

[Xtafa]

I love Roshar, its my favourite BUT.. Shardplate, meet an accurate high calibre sniper. That plate isn't lasting long. 

Era 1 would lean more towards Roshar, a misting lacks the diversity to tackle a radiant. A mistborn would rip them apart but their numbers are low. 

Era 2 would win due to technology. 

[Arrae]

I think Roshar would be unable to hold any sort of territory in Scadrial at all. Allomancy is pretty much made for guerrilla warfare -- Soothers and Rioters can easily spread paranoia, Tineyes can act as scouts, Coinshots can wreck havoc from afar and jump away, etc. That's not even counting Feruchemy or the South Scadrians. Even if Roshar could conquer Scadrial, they can't keep it, not if their soldiers keep running away screaming from emotional Allomancy every time they come of of the perpendicularly into Scadrial. At best, Roshar can lock themselves into a grinding war of attrition, but they won't win.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

People are forgetting just how powerful the super smash brothers giga Marsh and 'Sovereign' Kelsier are. I'd say either of those two are the most powerful non-Shardic entities just below Hoid. Unless the Rosharans got their hands on some dawnshards the Scadrians take this one easily.

[LadyLameness]

7 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

super smash brothers giga Marsh and 'Sovereign' Kelsier

I love this imagery so much 

 

I think a lot of factors depend on who is invading who. 

It's worth considering the locations of the perpendicularities (though keeping within the rule of 'you can't force a bottle neck') - the one known perpendicularity on Scadrial is smack bang in the middle of Elendel so the Scadrian's would lose their capital and that would probably affect their ability to create weapons. The tech of Southern Scadrial would probably make up for this to a certain extent though. 

For Scadrian's to go to Roshar they either need to go through the Horneater peaks (where there's some unknown weird/presumably Odium related thing happening) or take their chances with Honor's perpendicularity which would be... interesting. 

Wow, writing it out like that makes it seem not so great for Scadrial. (How did I end up finding an argument against the side I'm rooting for???) 

 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

Question: Would the void bringers aid the Rosharans in their conquest? If so, that could lead to some interesting strategies.

Aside from that, there is another aspect Scadrial definitely has an edge in, which would be espionage/sabotage. Assuming the Kandra are willing, they could easily be used to acquire information on attack plans, assassinate important generals, or just general chaos and sabotage. Knowing that a couple of literally faceless spies may be among their ranks certainly wouldn't improve morale or trust between nations either. Considering Roshar doesn't seem to have any similar means of spying, since Lightweavers require stormlight to sustain illusions over an extended period of time and Simians can't pass for human on close inspection, this would leave them at a strategical disadvantage.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, LadyLameness said:

the one known perpendicularity on Scadrial is smack bang in the middle of Elendel so the Scadrian's would lose their capital and that would probably affect their ability to create weapons.

The Pits are not a functioning perpendicularity anymore. The location of Harmony's Shardpool is unknown... But Hoid moves back and forth between Scadrial and other worlds so its probably in the north or he's schmoozed the southerners for rides.

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Dalenthas

Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...

Brandon Sanderson

The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.

source

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Questioner

Before Preservation locked up Ruin, or whatever, or if Ruin had won. Would atium exist?

Brandon Sanderson

...There are timelines where there would be no atium.

Questioner

...So if Harmony exists, does atium exist?

Brandon Sanderson

Atium does not exist because there is no Ati. Well there is atium left over from before, but--

Questioner

So it was only part of Ati's body and not part of Harmony's body.

Brandon Sanderson

There is no atium, there is no Preservation any longer, there is no Ati.

Questioner

So does harmonium exist?

Brandon Sanderson

...There's no Leras and there's no Ati, there's no Ruin--

Questioner

Does harmonium exist then?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question.

source

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Questioner

Can lerasium be regrown like atium, like in a Pits of Hathsin, just for the lerasium, or no?

Brandon Sanderson

Lerasium did not have a Pits of Hathsin analogue... Not anymore, Leras is dead.

source

Altogether, it seems like Sazed could probably make atium if he chooses... But the pits aren't going to reproduce atium naturally, because Ati is no longer the holder of the single Shard of Ruin, just as lerasium stopped being produced after Leras' "death" 

[The One Who Connects]

14 hours ago, Xtafa said:

Shardplate, meet an accurate high calibre sniper. That plate isn't lasting long. 

Up for a bit more debate than you think.

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VindicationKnight
To what extent could Shardplate resist a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson
Plate would resist a bullet well.

9 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

People are forgetting just how powerful the super smash brothers giga Marsh and 'Sovereign' Kelsier are. I'd say either of those two are the most powerful non-Shardic entities just below Hoid. Unless the Rosharans got their hands on some dawnshards the Scadrians take this one easily.

Following what happened last time Roshar vs Scadrial got discussed, I think we are ignoring them on purpose. I mean, if we include them, why not just include TLR in an Era 1 discussion and end the war right then and there? Why not include the Shards themselves? It's much more fun to discuss is there isn't some "I win button" waiting in the wings.

[MountainKing]

Do the sleepless would be amazing spies because they came breed their cremlings to appear like Scadrialians bugs or just hide them well because they are so small.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

On 6/4/2018 at 0:05 PM, The One Who Connects said:

VindicationKnight
To what extent could Shardplate resist a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson
Plate would resist a bullet well.

@The One Who Connects Does this also apply to aluminum bullets as well?

 

[The One Who Connects]

9 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Does this also apply to aluminum bullets as well?

I would imagine so. Aluminum prevents Shardblades from cutting magically, but at the end of the day, they are still Swords with sharp edges.

Aluminum against powered Shardplate seems kinda equivalent to Steel against unpowered Shardplate. It's still very bulky/heavy/thick armor, and unless a bullet could normally pierce something of that thickness/durability, the magic doesn't matter.

Disclaimer: I don't have an explicit WoB about Plate to back this up, but it makes sense.

Edited June 6, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[Fatikis]

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VindicationKnight
To what extent could Shardplate resist a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson
Plate would resist a bullet well.

I think this is being interpreted badly. We see shardplate damaged by non-magical physical means. Shardplate is going to act as really good body armor. The question was would shardplate resist a singular bullet. The answer is it would resist well.

Now would shardplate resist 8 shots to the same area? We don't know for sure, but I suspect it would crack after 3-4 shots. It will likely depend on the caliber of bullet and the precision of the shooter.

Aluminum resists investiture, but I don't see any reason why an aluminum bullet would damage shardplate. It probably would be less effective than a standard bullet. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Fatikis

[The One Who Connects]

12 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Now would shardplate resist 8 shots to the same area?

The small cracks in (Relis?) Breastplate during Adolin's 4v1 appeared at the edges near his shoulders, not in the center of the back where the blow happened.

Hitting the same place doesn't appear to work the same way on Roshar as it does here.

[Doomdrinker]

8 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

I think this is being interpreted badly. We see shardplate damaged by non-magical physical means. Shardplate is going to act as really good body armor. The question was would shardplate resist a singular bullet. The answer is it would resist well.

Now would shardplate resist 8 shots to the same area? We don't know for sure, but I suspect it would crack after 3-4 shots. It will likely depend on the caliber of bullet, and the precision of the shooter.

It depends on how advanced scadrial gunsmithing is. If it was close to modern tech levels than they'd have no problem with heavy armour like shardplate. but I'm not convinced scadrial has anything like that as that would be a perfect counter to lurchers, just load the AP ammo and watch as your shot goes strait through their armour. 

 

[Calderis]

It would also depend on the shape of the plate. Unless the bullet hits flat on, which is probably pretty unlikely, much of the force is going to be deflected away from the plate. 

[Pattern]

All I have read until now were things about firepower of technolocical advanced Scadrians and the disadvantage of Shardblades and Plate. What we still don't know the extent of is the ability of the Division surge, for example. Skybreakers and Dustbringers could wreak havoc on a battlefield on Roshar. Elsecallers with Jasnah's soulcasting-without-contact ability also have to be reckoned with (I think Lightweavers can't soulcast the same way). Lightweavers could fool the Scadrian army to engage in the wrong direction. Thunderclasts would not mind bullets very much - ok, I am not sure if we may count them as Rosharans - but you see where I am going. Roshar is more than just Shardplate and -blade and armies of spearmen - at least after the events in OB.

I would say that neither party had a chance on the other planet. On Scadrial, Scadrians would win the battle, essentially because Rosharans would be there with medieval or stoneage-like weapons, and without spren (assuming they don't find a way to get them off-planet), therefore without Surges, Shardblades and Shardplate. On Roshar the Rosharans would win, because an army of surgebinders with access to stormlight would simply overpower an army of Mistings and Ferrings. A battle in the cognitive realm would be decided by the less sapient spren like painspren, fearspren or angerspren.They would get a feast on both armies likewise ;-)

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Pattern said:

On Roshar the Rosharans would win, because an army of surgebinders with access to stormlight would simply overpower an army of Mistings and Ferrings.

And again, it's a numbers game. 

The issue is that you could actual build an army from the number of misting/ferrings/Twinborn that exist on Scadrial. 

There aren't enough surgebinders to constitute an "army" yet... And even if there were, the more Radiants in one place means the more gems and Stormlight needed to fuel them. And 

OB Spoilers

Spoiler

The one time we've seen enough Stormlight to last an army was the result of a perpendicularity. 

And that's still all discounting that firearms essentially mean that every Scadrian is a coinshot, magic or no. 

I honesty think that the Highstorms, until the Scadrian's get used to them, are a much bigger impediment to Scadrian forces than any other force on Roshar. 

[mosaab]

I think roshar's ability to Soulcast massive amounts of aluminum can be very useful, they can just coat everything with it.

[Calderis]

52 minutes ago, mosaab said:

I think roshar's ability to Soulcast massive amounts of aluminum can be very useful, they can just coat everything with it.

They'd have to understand what it does first. 

[mosaab]

If we consider espionage and infiltration, I don't think that's a hard knowledge to acquire. The effects of Aluminum on the metallic art is public knowledge.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, mosaab said:

If we consider espionage and infiltration, I don't think that's a hard knowledge to acquire. The effects of Aluminum on the metallic art is public knowledge.

Knowledge back and forth is going to be a hurdle at first though. There's going to be a language barrier to overcome. 

The cultures are so vastly different that once that barrier is overcome, either group attempting to pose as a member of the other is going to be extremely difficult. 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Knowledge back and forth is going to be a hurdle at first though. There's going to be a language barrier to overcome. 

The cultures are so vastly different that once that barrier is overcome, either group attempting to pose as a member of the other is going to be extremely difficult. 

Couldn't Southern Scadrians potentially help get around this through the use of medallions?