[OB] Gavilar's black sphere

[Jofwu]

Or make that, Gavilar's black spheres. Brandon hasn't been asked about these since Oathbringer came out, so I tried to fish for more information during RAFOlympics at JordanCon on Saturday.

There's a few things that made me interested in this. Brandon said all the way back in the TWoK annotations (released just before OB, but written long ago) that he felt like the nature of the sphere was obvious, if confusing. He has said that he would explain it in book 3 and that we would all know what it is by the end of book 3, and yet here were are still unable to agree on it. The other interesting thing to me is how many of them there are. I transcribed the OB prologue when Brandon did a reading of it in early 2017 and Gavilar explicitly stated that he had more when he gave one to Eshonai. In the final version of the prologue, this line was removed and we were merely left with the implication that Gavilar had at least two. (one to Eshonai and one to Szeth) I was curious if this was simply a case of word count being shortened or if Brandon took it out on purpose.

So the WoB:

Quote

Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]

Gavilar's black sphere. What was inside of it and how many does he have?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, it is what you think it is. And he had... yeah... He had access to several. Did we canonize this Karen?

Karen Ahlstrom [PENDING REVIEW]

*shakes head*

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, we haven't canonized it. I'm going to say RAFO on the number, but it is what you think it is and what the third book implies that it is.

source

He didn't reveal much at face value. I THOUGHT that he would be less coy now that it is supposed to be obvious. No such luck. Guess I should have explicitly mentioned that there are still ongoing debates. We can't agree on "what we think it is" Brandon! And the number is "several", but non-canonized and a RAFO. My interpretation of this is that Brandon RAFO'd the number simply because it hasn't been canonized. It sounded strongly to me like a case where he didn't want to commit to a number if they hadn't decided on one yet.

Fortunately, I'm of the opinion that this narrows down our options to the most obvious solution. I think there were four plausible theories: voidlight, voidspren, Fused, or Unmade.

Voidlight is the easiest to eliminate. The context of the discussion between Gavilar and Eshonai is heavily about trapping spren in gemstones. Furthermore, we have never seen voidlight contained in a gem. Between these, I don't see how Brandon could possibly think that OB "implies" the sphere contains voidlight.

I also think that this WoB eliminates the Unmade. I know there's a compelling argument that it does, because Gavilar very clearly explains how Ba Ado Mishram was trapped in a gem when he shows the sphere to Eshonai. There's some other supporting evidence as well, I believe. If nothing else, there's the fact that Navani compares the black sphere(s) to the King's Drop (which seems designed to hold an Unmade) and the fact that several Unmade pop up around Kholinar when the Everstorm comes. However, this isn't the only interpretation of that evidence. And most importantly, I have a VERY HARD TIME believing that Gavilar possessed [1] at least 1/3 of all the Unmade (several implying at least 3) or that [2] Brandon doesn't know exactly where all of the Unmade are. Surely if Gavilar had several Unmade held captive, Brandon would know the precise number.

Personally, I think there's an argument to be made that it could be a Fused. But I don't suppose that there's a great explanation as to HOW he could have obtained one of these if they're all trapped on Braize and only get free for Desolations. It would imply that the sphere(s) have held these Fused for an awfully long time. Overall, this feels like an idea with little support.

So... it's got to be a voidspren, in my opinion. Worth noting that long ago Brandon claimed Navani's notebook pages in TWoK (about fabrials) offer a clue. Also, when Eshonai sees the sphere, her immediate reaction is to think of the forms of power. Forms which are associated with voidspren. I think this is the most obvious explanation that fits with what we know. It fits with the prior discussion about fabrials and trapping spren (like listeners trap spren in their gemhearts, as Eshonai notes) and it fits with the idea that Gavilar has some unspecified multitude of them.

[Stormfather-in-Law]

Wasn't the third book supposed to be Szeth's (at the time Brandon indicated it would be obvious by then)? If so, we may need to wait for his book to get more clarity.

[ScarletSabre]

Szeth also hid the sphere after he killed Gavilar, let's not forget... Perhaps he's the one who hid it in Kholinar, or else what the Fused are searching for there are one of the others that Gavilar had access to.

"Had access to" also implies that perhaps the Sons of Honour have the others, or someone else that knew of Gavilar's secret/plans.

[Jofwu]

5 minutes ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

Wasn't the third book supposed to be Szeth's (at the time Brandon indicated it would be obvious by then)? If so, we may need to wait for his book to get more clarity.

True, at the time of the two WoBs I linked. But I think that's unlikely. I definitely get the sense that he thinks the mystery would be and has been answered in this book regardless.

2 minutes ago, ScarletSabre said:

"Had access to" also implies that perhaps the Sons of Honour have the others, or someone else that knew of Gavilar's secret/plans.

Yeah, I doubt that Gavilar went around and got these all on his own. It seems very likely he obtained them through the Sons of Honor, especially in light of Mraize's info dump to Shallan about them. That doesn't change my opinions though on the fact that (1) it seems unlikely any person or group would have their hands on 3+ trapped Unmade AND that (2) Brandon would be uncertain as to how many they had.

[The One Who Connects]

18 minutes ago, ScarletSabre said:

Szeth also hid the sphere after he killed Gavilar, let's not forget... Perhaps he's the one who hid it in Kholinar,

That one's in Jah Keved.

On 12/22/2017 at 5:09 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Because Szeth said he hid it there.

Quote

The miners eventually tired of Took's increasingly slurred stories. They bid him farewell, ignoring his braod hints that another cup of beer would prompt him to tell his greatest tale: that of the time when he'd seen the Nightwatcher herself and stolen a sphere that glowed black at night. That tale always discomforted Szeth, as it reminded him of the strange black sphere Gavilar had given him. He'd hidden that carefully in Jah Keved. He didn't know what it was, but he didn't want to risk a master taking it from him.

Regarding Taravangian getting it, barring a passage from the Diagram, I have my doubts. Szeth hid it at least... 2-3 masters before Taravangian hired him.

---

37 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

So... it's got to be a voidspren, in my opinion.

I agree, for the same reason you think it's not a Fused: availability of getting them. In Edgedancer, Nalan mentions finding pockets of Voidspren that survived(although that may have just been an excuse to deny the Desolation).

[Blightsong]

I think you guys are over thinking it personally. No where in Oathbringer does it really imply that those spheres might hold Voidspren. The heavy implication throughout the book is that it holds an Unmade, Brandon would not have said what he said in this latest WoB (in my opinion) if what was in the sphere was something less heavily implied. Any thoughts we have about what Gavilar could or couldn't have done or had access to are really too uninformed to sway me away from taking all the hints that the spheres hold Unmade.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Blightsong

[RShara]

35 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

I think you guys are over thinking it personally. No where in Oathbringer does it really imply that those spheres might hold Voidspren. The heavy implication throughout the book is that it holds an Unmade, Brandon would not have said what he said in this latest WoB (in my opinion) if what was in the sphere was something less heavily implied. Any thoughts we have about what Gavilar could or couldn't have done or had access to are really too uninformed to sway me away from taking all the hints that the spheres hold Unmade.

I think the main one that he kept, that he said They couldn't get their hands on, was an Unmade, while the others were voidspren or voidlight, myself.

[Blightsong]

25 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think the main one that he kept, that he said They couldn't get their hands on, was an Unmade, while the others were voidspren or voidlight, myself.

If the spheres held different things I feel like that would have been hinted at by Brandon at this point.

[Yvainnie]

Only perfect gem can trap Unmade. It is specifically said so during Oathbringer that that black sphere is not describe at perfect gem.

[Govir]

Didn't Aesudan mention that she knew of Gavilar's black sphere, but he never dared go as far as swallowing it? But that she was different and did swallow it and was master over on of the Unmade now (even though she was wrong about the mastery part)?

I'll need to reread that section when I get a chance.

[RShara]

15 minutes ago, Yvainnie said:

Only perfect gem can trap Unmade. It is specifically said so during Oathbringer that that black sphere is not describe at perfect gem.

We don't know this for sure.  And Navani says that Gavilar made a sphere that looked similar to the King's Drop.

[Yvainnie]

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

We don't know this for sure.  And Navani says that Gavilar made a sphere that looked similar to the King's Drop.

You mean he could made a sphere out of perfect gem?

[RShara]

1 minute ago, Yvainnie said:

You mean he could made a sphere out of perfect gem?

His gem was sphere shaped.  It wasn't a sphere as in the money spheres, with a small gemstone surrounded by glass.

[dvoraen]

16 hours ago, Govir said:

Didn't Aesudan mention that she knew of Gavilar's black sphere, but he never dared go as far as swallowing it? But that she was different and did swallow it and was master over on of the Unmade now (even though she was wrong about the mastery part)?

I'll need to reread that section when I get a chance.

Here you go:

Quote

"I continued your father's work! I found the secret, Elhokar. Spren, ancient spren. You can bond with them!"  ...  "...I've done what your father could not.  Oh he found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it.  But I, I have solved the riddle."

-- Oathbringer, p815hb

 

Personally, I think Aesudan was nudged heavily into ingesting the gemstone to get Yelig-nar to possess her and thinking it was her own discovery.  I've been wondering how exactly she figured it out*, but the implication is that Odium nudged her, since he knew about her being consumed by Yelig-nar, or she researched the myths about the Unmade and came across that tidbit.  What's more interesting is that, reading between the lines, Gavilar either had found Yelig-nar or one of the other Unmade (doubtful it was Sja-anat or Ashertmarn, though).  I find it weird he would not have discovered the same information Hessi did for Mythica regarding gemstone ingestion, however.  I'm thinking Gavilar was trying to bond one of the Unmade in a more "I'm in control" kind of way.  Or perhaps better stated: he wasn't an idiot and didn't just dive in like someone else did.

 

* There is still the possibility that the Unmade that was found was Ba-Ado-Mishram and "planning this" is supposedly something she does (in addition to being able to Connect with others and holding the reins).  The point I'm trying to make is that it's possible that Aesudan did manage to bond with an Unmade, except she was effectively manipulated into becoming Yelig-nar's host to get her out of the way and/or feed Yelig-nar.  I think Aesudan has been drawing the eyes of the Unmade to Kholinar for quite some time, with what we know now.  It explains why at least three of them were there, if not four or more (counting any captives).  Chemoarish, Ba-Ado-Mishram and Dai-Gonarthis are the ones that are unaccounted for, for their locations, so any and all of them could have been found by now.  I still think Dai-Gonarthis is captive on Aimia though.

Edited April 24, 2018 by dvoraen

[Ciridae]

21 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Voidlight is the easiest to eliminate. The context of the discussion between Gavilar and Eshonai is heavily about trapping spren in gemstones.

I always read it that the emphasis was not about trapping spren in general, but a very specific spren. Gavilar explains that a crucial spren was needed to facilitate forms, namely Ba-Ado-Mishram, who we know could grant access to Voidlight. This in combination with the fact that we know what Voidlight looks like from when Fused use it reads to me like it has to be Voidlight. We know Voidlight is inherntly different from stormlight in that it doesn't, or only barely leaks, at least when the Fused are using it, so that explains how the spheres weirdly keep their glow. 

In one of the headings from the crystal archive, I think an Elsecallers mentions that trapping an Unmade requires a special prison. We later see that in the Kings Drop. I don't know if several small spheres qualify as such a special prison. 

It could still be a voidspren, maybe even Ulim...that would be interesting too. It's true Eshonai thinks of forms of power, but again, Ba-Ado-Mishram was responsible for those as well during the False Desolation... I don't know, it just feels like Voidlight is the easiest answer. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Ciridae

[Jofwu]

1 hour ago, Ciridae said:

I always read it that the emphasis was not about trapping spren in general, but a very specific spren. Gavilar explains that a crucial spren was needed to facilitate forms, namely Ba-Ado-Mishram, who we know could grant access to Voidlight.

That's true. I absolutely agree that Gavilar is talking about Ba-Ado-Mishram in that conversation. I'm just referring to the fact that the conversation is more broadly about capturing spren in general.

I don't think the particular glow of the sphere implies it's BAM. Nergaoul glowed the same way and we can see that Fused glow with voidlight without access to BAM (seemingly). I definitely think that's what the glow is. I just don't think it implies the sphere holds BAM.

[Toaster Retribution]

I agree with the Voidspren idea. I doubt Gavilar wanders around gifting Unmade to people like Santa Claus on christmas. Voidspren has the strongest support, in my opinion, and the recent WoB implies that that is the case. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Nice question and nice summation @Jofwu, but one thing to think about is that Gavilar had 2 spheres, he was very worried that the 2nd sphere would fall into the hands of the Parshendi, so worried in fact he charged his Assassin with the task of hiding it. 

We know he wanted to bring about a Desolation to return the Heralds, but if the Sons of Honor were in fact not the dun spheres that we have all suspected, perhaps this second gem given to Szeth held BAM, and the first sphere given to Eshonai held Sja-Anat. The sheer number of voidspren that the listeners bonded with prior to the battle of Narak  shows they had access to a large number of voidspren, and by description the storm form voidspren sound like corrupted windspren. So either Eshonai got a gem with Sja-Anat trapped within it or there were a large number of hidden voidspren that escaped detection by Nale and his Skybreaker for 1000+ years. I think the former is far likelier.

Edited April 24, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typos, like usual

[RShara]

25 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Nice question and nice summation @Jofwu, but one thing to think about is that Gavilar had 2 spheres, he was very worried that the 2nd sphere would fall into the hands of the Parshendi, so worried in fact he charged his Assassin with the task of hiding it. 

We know he wanted to bring about a Desolation to return the Heralds, but if the Sons of Honor were in fact not the dun spheres that we have all suspected, perhaps this second gem given to Szeth held BAM, and the first sphere given to Eshonai held Sja-Anat. The sheer number of voidspren that the listeners bonded with prior to the battle of Nara shows they had access to a large number of voidspren, and by description the storm form voidspren sound like corrupted windspren. So either Eshonai got a gem with Sja-Anat trapped within it or there were a large number of hidden voidspren that escaped detection by Nale and his Skybreaker for 1009+ years. I think the former is far likelier.

I think he was more worried that the sphere would fall into the hands of Thaidakar or Restares, though I can see the Parshendi, too.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

38 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think he was more worried that the sphere would fall into the hands of Thaidakar or Restares, though I can see the Parshendi, too.

Makes sense that Gavilar would be worried that Thaidakar, the putative head of the ghostbloods, would order his assasination. We know from Mraize's order to infiltrate Amaram's compound that the Ghostbloods were aware of the Sons of Honor, makes sense that the SOHs would be at least somewhat aware of them as well. 

The fact that he suspected Restares and that he wanted the sphere to be kept from him suggests that he was pursuing his own agenda in studying the dark spheres, and that his plans were not sanctioned by the SOHs.

This opens up the possibility, which is speculative to be sure, that his particular pursuit of bringing about the Desolation was influenced by Odium. If the Dark sphere he gave to Eshonai was indeed Sja-Anat, he might have been corrupted, influenced and guided by this unmade to discover the location of more of these Dark spheres. It is interesting that there are 3 Unmade in Kholinar.

I also suspect that the advent of the Everstorm was a way to achieve a Bo-Ado-Mishram like effect (restoring the Parshmen's severed connection, vehicle for voidlight dispersal, and a Rosharan focus for Odium's influence) while BAM remained trapped and hidden in some as of yet undisclosed location in Jah Kaved.

I think we will see Dalinar and Co attempting to recover the Dark sphere that Szeth hid in book 4, and even if this isn't BAM, I still think this sphere will contain one of the Unmade.

[Ciridae]

8 hours ago, Jofwu said:

That's true. I absolutely agree that Gavilar is talking about Ba-Ado-Mishram in that conversation. I'm just referring to the fact that the conversation is more broadly about capturing spren in general.

I don't think the particular glow of the sphere implies it's BAM. Nergaoul glowed the same way and we can see that Fused glow with voidlight without access to BAM (seemingly). I definitely think that's what the glow is. I just don't think it implies the sphere holds BAM.

Ah sorry, I wasn't t trying to say that BAM is in the sphere, only that Gavilar was somehow granted the Voidlight in that sphere through her. 

[Calderis]

All things considered, I'm with @Blightsong and still believe the gems contain Unmade.

@Jofwu, I don't think a simple voidspren would create the effect that we see in those spheres. If it did, the stormspren gem that Eshonai took into the storm should have glowed in the same manner, and it definitely did not.

Edit: From the interlude in which Eshonai enters the storm. 

Quote

She placed the base of the shield against a ridge of rock on the ground, then turned her shoulder against it, lowered her head, and braced herself with one foot back. Her other hand held the stone with the spren in it. She’d have preferred to wear her Plate, but for some reason having it on interfered with the transformation process.

-snip-

Power, energy. She imagined it coursing through her, energizing her, enlivening her. Eshonai threw the gemstone against the ground, smashing it and releasing the spren. She worked hard to get the proper feel down, as Venli had trained her.

The stone isn't described as glowing at all. As the gems in fabrials can be drained of stormlight, and then infused and still work, I think it just looked like a dun gemstone. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Calderis

[Strifelover]

Narratively it feels like Gavilar's Sphere (the one he gives Szeth to hide) needs to be something really, really big and important. If it just contained Voidlight, a Fused or a Voidspren that would be kind of a letdown. Not that Fused or Voidspren can't be powerful, but we've already seen a bunch of Fused and at least a couple of Voidspren, the addition of one more doesn't seem that significant to me. If it contained an Unmade, especially BAM, that would definitely be significant enough to warrant so much foreshadowing.

On the other hand, Gavilar pretty casually gives the other sphere to Eshonai, pretty much just to send a message to the Parshendi. If he had another Unmade, I don't think he'd be quite so cavalier in handing it over. So to me, it makes the most sense that the sphere he gives Szeth contains a trapped BAM, and the other sphere(s) contain Voidlight. We know BAM can provide Voidlight, and it seems a reasonable thing for Gavilar to give Eshonai to let the Parshendi know what he's really got and an idea of what he's planning.

And yes, he could just be being manipulated or he doesn't know what he's doing, but I'm hopeful that's not the case. I really don't want the Sons of Honor to turn out to be the clueless dopes they seem so far.