Vasher as Ishi?

[Rew he/him]

So, a theory has popped up (largely I've seen it on tor.com, but I've seen it here as well) that Vasher/Zahel could also be Ishi, one of the Heralds. 

 

I believe this is largely due to the fact that in his interlude, Ishi shows up as all four faces on the chapter icon.  I will admit that when I was first reading WoR that I initially thought that he was Ishi at that point (just because of the fact that a- he was a strange character who knew a lot more than a normal vanilla mortal, and b-the icon), but later twigged to the fact that he must be Vasher. 

 

As for this theory though:  it seems to claim that somehow, Ishi left Roshar (after breaking the oathpact?*), went to Nalthis, apparently died somehow (?), Returned (became Vasher, with no recollection of his former life/Roshar?), and then figured out how to worldhop again and came back to Roshar.  (If there is someone out there that would like to claim this theory, who has a different timeline or understanding, please correct me**)***

 

My question is - Is that even possible based on what we know of Realmatic theory and investiture?  Based on my general (admittedly rough) understanding of realmatic theory and cosmere-ology, it was my understanding that there were specific physical DNA distinctions (based on planet of origin/creation and the Shard that created/formed humans there) that affected spiritual DNA and hence the capabilities and how persons on each planet invest and utilize this investiture.  

 

If such is the case, could someone who originated elsewhere but worldhopped to Nalthis  and then was killed/died, even be capable of being affected by Endowment and thus becoming a Returned?  (I think perhaps my reference point for this is Elantris where one's tie to physical geography affects how they invest/utilize investiture.)

 

I am sure that I am mangling the correct terminology (canonical or not) for this, and couldn't find what I thought I knew on the wiki or here in the forums.  So, someone with more cosmerical knowledge, please, 'splain me!

 

 

 

*Alternative question - how does this match up with the timeline of the Cosmere? if that is known at all... is it even possible that Ishi could have done this after breaking the Oathpact, have Warbreaker and its world history occur, and then be back to Roshar as Zahel?

 

 

**This of course assumes that the Heralds are originally from Roshar and don't have something really funky going on in their own origin stories.  If that is the case, then all bets are off.  I assume that they are original Rosharians who have been granted immortality and thus derive their advanced knowledge either from years lived or directly from Honor prior to his shattering. 

 

 

*** if you can't tell based on my incredulous question marks, I really don't subscribe to this theory based on the evidence put forward for it (i.e. very little at the moment) that I have seen... 

Edited March 14, 2014 by Rew

[TraSor]

I don't know about ISHI.   I was thinking more along the line of KALAK.  you know with that  "Kelek's breath" swear.

also their is Nightblood created by Vasher (KALAD) and Shashara (Shallash)?

  Just a thought I could be way, way off.  

[Earendil]

I'd be hesitant to make many assumptions about the heralds at this point--so far, the only thing we know is that they derived some of their powers from the Honorblades.  Since they're all still alive, and they've demonstrated at least some supernal knowledge, however, it's clear that they have some source of power that didn't derive from the Oathpact.

 

As for the theory-crafting:

 

- I'd be very surprised if someone from Roshar could become a Returned.  Brandon has been very hesitant to talk about how magic would interact between worlds, but it seems clear that there is at least a degree of inherited ability in most of the systems we've seen so far.

 

- It seems to me to be more likely that someone from Nalthis could become a herald by claiming an Honorblade.  I seem to recall Brandon mentioning that if someone on Roshar ate a bead of Larasium, they would gain some powers (not necessarily allomancy).

 

- Timeline wise, either way seems unlikely.  We don't know enough to conclusively rule it out, but given the fact that he died a few hundred years ago and then returned, he would have had to been alive for a LONG time before suddenly dying.  Since it seems that none of the other Heralds have died in the intervening millenia, that means something surprising would have had to kill him.

 

- There's also the question of whether the Heralds can die, since dying is required to become a Returned.  Did giving up their Honorblades make it possible for them to actually die?

 

 

Overall, I'd consider the problems with this theory far stronger than the possibilty that Zahel is both Vasher and Ishi, especially since the the only evidence is four of the same faces on the chapter heading--Eshonai's chapters also have a single herald (can't remember who's who), and we know she's not a herald.  Personally, I consider it more likely that Zahel is Ishi and not Vasher, and the hints are misdirection.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Earendil

[xbauks he/him]

I'd be hesitant to make many assumptions about the heralds at this point--so far, the only thing we know is that they derived some of their powers from the Honorblades. Since they're all still alive, and they've demonstrated at least some supernal knowledge, however, it's clear that they have some source of power that didn't derive from the Oathpact.

As for the theory-crafting:

- I'd be very surprised if someone from Roshar could become a Returned. Brandon has been very hesitant to talk about how magic would interact between worlds, but it seems clear that there is at least a degree of inherited ability in most of the systems we've seen so far.

- It seems to me to be more likely that someone from Nalthis could become a herald by claiming an Honorblade. I seem to recall Brandon mentioning that if someone on Roshar ate a bead of Larasium, they would gain some powers (not necessarily allomancy).

- Timeline wise, either way seems unlikely. We don't know enough to conclusively rule it out, but given the fact that he died a few hundred years ago and then returned, he would have had to been alive for a LONG time before suddenly dying. Since it seems that none of the other Heralds have died in the intervening millenia, that means something surprising would have had to kill him.

- There's also the question of whether the Heralds can die, since dying is required to become a Returned. Did giving up their Honorblades make it possible for them to actually die?

Overall, I'd consider the problems with this theory far stronger than the possibilty that Zahel is both Vasher and Ishi, especially since the the only evidence is four of the same faces on the chapter heading--Eshonai's chapters also have a single herald (can't remember who's who), and we know she's not a herald. Personally, I consider it more likely that Zahel is Ishi and not Vasher, and the hints are misdirection.

Zahel is Vasher. Brandon explicitly states it.

[Sabrina Stormshard she/her]

Well Vasher as a returned who is getting his weekly breath (or stormlight as Brandon has implied can also sustain a returned) is essentially immortal. So the real question is do we have an indication of timescales, Warbreaker vs Stormlight archive wrt to

 

1) when Vasher returned

2) when the heralds first popped up

 

 

if 1) was after 2) we'd be able to discredit this theory, otherwise we can continue to consider

[Cracknut he/him]

I don't know why this one get overlooked. I can totally see Vasher as one of the Heralds. Not sure which one it is though.

Warbreaker happened after Elantris and before Mistborn and we know that Stormlight Archive is set after events of Mistborn Trilogy as well as that Alloy of Law and SA are happening roughly at the same time so that's 300 years after Mistborn Trilogy.  I doubt it has been 4000 years between WB and Mistborn. Most likely less then 1000 years and more then 500 years. So timelines work well enough as far as I know.

I find it hard to believe that Heralds weren't aware of cosmere and worldhopping. And even if they were before giving up on their oaths they had about 4500 years to figure it out. I will be surprised if they still don't know about another worlds and will be seriously disappointed if one with Elsecallers abilities wasn't able to travel to another worlds. So for me its a must that at least one of the Heralds must be worldhopper.

Vasher fits in perfectly. Even if we can't prove one way or another right now, its too good not to be true.

But there are some reasons why I'm totally buying "Vasher is one of the Heralds" theory that isn't even a theory at this point:
As I said before, its a must for at least one of the herald to be a Worldhopper.
Also its another must for one of them to died in past 4500 years if they can die at all and if they could die it's more likely that it would happen on another planet.
And there's another thing I've been thinking about recently and this is why I'm betting my honor on this theory. We know that Endowment can see future. We know that Endowment is returning people to lives so that they can do something important. And most likely to accomplish that very important thing they have to give up Divine Breath and die. Vasher is Returned, he is still alive and he is on Roshar. 

I know this isn't much but... hell, this is too good.

[MitchSpren2014]

I don't know about ISHI.   I was thinking more along the line of KALAK.  you know with that  "Kelek's breath" swear.

also their is Nightblood created by Vasher (KALAD) and Shashara (Shallash)?

  Just a thought I could be way, way off.  

 

I don't think so... Remember the Prologue on the Way of Kings? Kalak sounds whiny on that chapter. Can you really imagine Vasher sounding that whiny?

[Aminar]

I don't think so... Remember the Prologue on the Way of Kings? Kalak sounds whiny on that chapter. Can you really imagine Vasher sounding that whiny?

After several millenia of torture interspersed with a few years of war that wipes out 9/10ths of a planets population he has a right to be whiny. And yes, I can see Vasher being that whiny. It's an interesting theory... I don`t buy it, but I see no evidence against it either.

[Velnica]

I don't buy it simply because in his interlude, Vasher made no mention of the desolation whatsoever, or even referenced any of the Heralds. He even mentioned the Highstorms as "one of those storms", as if he isn't used to it at all (he probably would've if he was a Herald). I know there's nothing explicitly mentioned that he wasn't a Herald, but based on his current state of being, it's really not apparent in the slightest that he could've been one.

[Cracknut he/him]

I don't buy it simply because in his interlude, Vasher made no mention of the desolation whatsoever, or even referenced any of the Heralds. He even mentioned the Highstorms as "one of those storms", as if he isn't used to it at all (he probably would've if he was a Herald). I know there's nothing explicitly mentioned that he wasn't a Herald, but based on his current state of being, it's really not apparent in the slightest that he could've been one.

Returned forget everything that happened before their death. 

[Ryshadium she/her]

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I was always under the belief that the Heralds were not native to Roshar. I don't know why I thought this. It would amuse me if each Herald was from a different shardworld, brought by Honor to defeat Odium. But I think this all may be a hallucination, or perhaps a dream I once had after too much wine.

[Cracknut he/him]

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I was always under the belief that the Heralds were not native to Roshar. I don't know why I thought this. It would amuse me if each Herald was from a different shardworld, brought by Honor to defeat Odium. But I think this all may be a hallucination, or perhaps a dream I once had after too much wine.

 

Never thought about that. They might be from another world but I find that unlikely. Most likely because of their names. Most of their names read same way from both sides, which I believe is Rosharan thing...

Edited March 17, 2014 by 213

[Bean]

Yes, but since the heralds re-founded rosharan society a bunch of times they may have picked this up from the heralds.

 

Although their entire continent is pretty symmetrical all on its own so maybe not.

[xbauks he/him]

It's very likely that the entire human race on Roshar is non-native. So the Heralds being non-native doesn't seem all that big a deal. 

[Ryshadium she/her]

Yeah I always assumed it to be common knowledge that they were not native. I'm not good with timelines so I don't know where their first arrival matches up with the rest of the cosmere.

Doesn't matter really, just a crazy idea I once had.

[Mistdork she/her]

Errr, I'm pretty sure that Vasher isn't old enough to be a Herald. If I were to hazard guess his age, it be somewhere between six and seven hundred...that's no where near the several millennia that the Heralds are by this point in Roshar history. Even if Nalthis' rotation, length of years, and days is even more out of whack than Roshar's (1000 days in one year) it really isn't that logical because Mistborn and WB happened some 300 years before ToW (or something like that, I've crept around the forum, and creeping gives you all the right answers, right?)

This doesn't mean that the Heralds and Return can't be similar beings, even if the Heralds aren't native to Roshar, they still might have been empowered by Honor when he used them in his plan to fight/trap Odium on Roshar. They're immortality (if we can call it that...) could be Honor-based, there is one epitaph that describes a man climbing up that were ten strides high and built for the Heralds [to put the Dawnshard back where it belonged] (WoK,524, Kindle Edition) and they're even worshiped as a kind of divinity/saint. If this is the case, they might even have a different form, but one connected to their Honorblades. It might be possible that the Heralds in their more...Herald-like form were taller and stronger than other men if that is the case. Their appearance would be tied to how people view them (when they know who they are...no one but Amaram and Wit know that Taln is Taln and few people seem to realize who Darkness is exactly)...

[Cracknut he/him]

Errr, I'm pretty sure that Vasher isn't old enough to be a Herald. If I were to hazard guess his age, it be somewhere between six and seven hundred...that's no where near the several millennia that the Heralds are by this point in Roshar history. Even if Nalthis' rotation, length of years, and days is even more out of whack than Roshar's (1000 days in one year) it really isn't that logical because Mistborn and WB happened some 300 years before ToW (or something like that, I've crept around the forum, and creeping gives you all the right answers, right?) This doesn't mean that the Heralds and Return can't be similar beings, even if the Heralds aren't native to Roshar, they still might have been empowered by Honor when he used them in his plan to fight/trap Odium on Roshar. They're immortality (if we can call it that...) could be Honor-based, there is one epitaph that describes a man climbing up that were ten strides high and built for the Heralds [to put the Dawnshard back where it belonged] (WoK,524, Kindle Edition) and they're even worshiped as a kind of divinity/saint. If this is the case, they might even have a different form, but one connected to their Honorblades. It might be possible that the Heralds in their more...Herald-like form were taller and stronger than other men if that is the case. Their appearance would be tied to how people view them (when they know who they are...no one but Amaram and Wit know that Taln is Taln and few people seem to realize who Darkness is exactly)...

 

We can't know how old he is. He doesn't knows it himself as he forgot everything that happened before his death/return which must have happened after Heralds gave up on Oathpact. Vasher should be around 500-1000 years old, but nobody knows who he was before he returned.

Edited March 17, 2014 by 213

[Velnica]

Returned forget everything that happened before their death.

Very good point you have there. I've honestly forgotten about that one. I do however have this question:

Can Heralds properly die after they broke their Oathpact? Heralds were only roaming the world during the Desolations, and if they died they got sent back to Damnation until the next Deso-cycle rocks up. That was part of the deal. I suppose there is no precedent for the oath breaking. This was why I was cautious about Vasher being an ex-Herald.

Thoughts anyone?

[+rhaiynebow]

100% agree with TraSor!! Until proven for sure otherwise, I think that Vasher=Kelek and Shashara=Shalash. I actually just brought this up in another thread, then had to go back and edit to give credit to TraSor when I found this thread NIcely done, and upvote for you!

 

I don't know where the originated, but I do think that they came to Roshar and were worshipped as Heralds, then went to Nalthis when they abandoned the Oathpact, then returned back to Roshar.

 

Not sure about the memory situation or all that happened in between, but this just feels right to me.

[Aoibheann she/her]

Sashara can not be Shalash. 
 

Sashara is dead according to Vasher & Denth in Warbreaker.  Vasher killed her due to abuse of power.  Vasher and Sashara were romantically involved, so the whole thing was very complicated and emotional.

 

In my mind the theory would work like this: 

1.  Vasher/Kalad/Peacegiver is on Nalthis and Returns.

2. The Manywar happened, the treasury of breaths is left with the GodKing and his priests.

3. Vasher looks for an easier way to get investiture (he's just given all his breaths away).  He goes to Roshar.

4. Honor/Tanavast is looking for someone to be a Herald. 

5. Vasher figures he needs to do some good to offset the Manywar; he volunteers to be a Herald (Ishi).  

6. Around one of the desolations the Heralds come back to see the spren have started the nahel bond.

  - His experience before causes him to want limits on the powers. 

  - He establishes the 10 KR orders around the different surges.

7. After the breaking of the Oathpact, Vasher goes back to check in on Nalthis and we see the events in Warbreaker.

8. Today he's feeling bad about the Manywar and the Oathpact.  Thus his comments to Kaladin about being able to sleep at night.  

 

I don't know if the timeline fits or not.  The only reference in Warbreaker to the Manywar timing is centuries ago (unless someone has better research-fu than I do). 

[Lightflame he/him]

According to my brother, who reread Warbreaker recently, Vasher is hinted to already be a worldhopper by the time the book begins.

 

You see, there's a part where he says that he had been away from Hallandren with no way to get back for some time. My brother pointed out that since Vasher is canonically a worldhopper, and Warbreaker doesn't offer any suggestions as to what would make it impossible for Vasher to get back to Hallandren, it might mean that he'd been trapped on another world.

[BaarZel]

Trapped in another world? or trapped in a cycle of torture and war because of a pact he made with nine others?

[Kobold King he/him]

According to my brother, who reread Warbreaker recently, Vasher is hinted to already be a worldhopper by the time the book begins.

 

You see, there's a part where he says that he had been away from Hallandren with no way to get back for some time. My brother pointed out that since Vasher is canonically a worldhopper, and Warbreaker doesn't offer any suggestions as to what would make it impossible for Vasher to get back to Hallandren, it might mean that he'd been trapped on another world.

That is... very interesting, under the circumstances. I need to glance through my Kindle copy and find that quote.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Sashara can not be Shalash. 

 

Sashara is dead according to Vasher & Denth in Warbreaker.  Vasher killed her due to abuse of power.  Vasher and Sashara were romantically involved, so the whole thing was very complicated and emotional.

 

In my mind the theory would work like this: 

1.  Vasher/Kalad/Peacegiver is on Nalthis and Returns.

2. The Manywar happened, the treasury of breaths is left with the GodKing and his priests.

3. Vasher looks for an easier way to get investiture (he's just given all his breaths away).  He goes to Roshar.

4. Honor/Tanavast is looking for someone to be a Herald. 

5. Vasher figures he needs to do some good to offset the Manywar; he volunteers to be a Herald (Ishi).  

6. Around one of the desolations the Heralds come back to see the spren have started the nahel bond.

  - His experience before causes him to want limits on the powers. 

  - He establishes the 10 KR orders around the different surges.

7. After the breaking of the Oathpact, Vasher goes back to check in on Nalthis and we see the events in Warbreaker.

8. Today he's feeling bad about the Manywar and the Oathpact.  Thus his comments to Kaladin about being able to sleep at night.  

 

I don't know if the timeline fits or not.  The only reference in Warbreaker to the Manywar timing is centuries ago (unless someone has better research-fu than I do). 

 

the Manywar happened about 300 years before the events of Warbreaker, which takes place somewhere after Hero of Ages (which itself is about 350 years before WoK.  Contrast this with the fact that the Heralds (including Ishar) abandoned their honorblades 4,500 years before WoK.

 

Personally I do not believe Vasher is a Herald, at all.

[RShara she/her]

Off topic, sorry....if HoA took place 250 yrs before WoK, then how is Demoux wandering around the Purelake? 

Edit:  Also is there a Cosmere timeline about somewhere?  I can't keep these dates straight.

Edited April 2, 2014 by RShara