[OB] Poll - Opinion on Adolin

[StormingTexan he/him]

I like Adolin. The 4vs1 duel is one of my favorite scenes in SA and made even better when Adolin sat in jail for Kaladin. He's a standup guy and one of the type of people you would want on your side. I was ok with how the whole love triangle thing worked out in OB and think Shallan ended up with the right guy. She's crazy and needs someone like Adolin to balance her out. I like that he offered to step aside for Kaladin and then later as king.

I hated how the whole Sadeas murder thing was handled. This was such a pivotal moment in WoR. In OB it seemed like it was going to be a big deal with the investigation and the irony of Adolin being charged to investigate the copy cat murders. Ialai involvement looked promising as well as a source of tension. Then it just gets covered up by the Re-Shepir plot. Pretty much gets dropped from there until the end of the book and the reveal to Dalinar was pretty much just a passing comment that he dismissed as "we all do bad stuff". I guess it is possible it may come back to haunt him but at this point most of the tension created by the scene in WoR is lost. 

So I am pretty much indifferent to Adolin now because that seems to be what Brandon wants us to feel. I think I am one of the few that do not care about the Adolin/Maya deal. I guess it will be cool to see a dead Shardblade resurrected but it is pretty low on my things I am excited to see. 

[king of nowhere]

The poll isn't going to be reliable, as people attracted  by adolin threads are more likely to readand answer it. It's probably skewed in favor of adolin supporters, and possibly haters. Just said

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

I kind of like Adolin as a person, but I don't like him as a character, and after OB this second part started to dominate. The fact that he doesn't get much development isn't exactly the main reason - it's ok given he's secondary/tertiary/whatever.

First, I have less of a problem with Adolin than with his storyline. It annoys me how everything turns out for the best for him. He got the looks, wealth, power, relatively decent family (except for young Dalinar, obviously, but he doesn't know half of it anyway), talent and pleasant personality, and now he also got the girl, Get Out of Jail Free card and hopes for Radiance on top of it all.  Even when the world is ending, his life is as bright and shiny as it gets. Given what the other characters go through, he stands out as the monument of Life Is Not Fair.

The problem I have with Adolin more personally is actually connected to that. He's never bothered. He had some worries about Dalinar in WoK, and then got a moment with Sadeas, but that's pretty much it - and it's been a while. I know he's meant to light up the mood, but there are... limits. He murdered a guy? Fine with it. He needs to re-establish his place in the era of wonders? Oh, well, I guess they're awesome. A family member dies? I'll think about it later. My father is going to die? I'll worry a bit (?) but less than Kaladin. My fiancee likes another guy? Well, understandable. Oh, she doesn't? Ok then, let's get married. It makes me want to smack him upside the head to finally get some reaction.

that's one of my main reasons for liking him:

finally a sane, stable guy!

the current trend of heroes always being some brand of crazy, former murderers, suffering from severe psycological issues, or immature youths is disheartening. Ok, I can see the whole "inspire people to overcome their flaws" vibe, but that's not going to work if the good and sane people are pushed in the background.

Heck, you make it seem like adolin should be ashamed to have better self-control than most. What's he supposed to do, trash around in anger/joy/despair all the time? Would that solve anything? I'll tell you, I am also the 'take things calmly and rationally, don't make a fuss' kind of person, and my parents, who are much more emotional and make big worries about everything - both developed serious stress problems as a result - tried to guilt trip me about being more like them for decades. So the whole "people should have strong emotional responses" is a pet peeve of mine. People should keep their emotions in check and remain functional, and while it is human and understandable to fail in that regard at times, those who can make it deserve praise, not suspicion. Worrying helps nobody, do what you can to fix the problem and then stop fretting. And especially his reaction to shalladin is to be praised. "I just want my beloved to be happy" is how someone genuinely in love should act in front of the chance of being left for someone else.

Then there's also the matter of command and ego. You put kaladin and shallan in the chasm, and they fight for control. shallan reveals she's a radiant to dalinar, and they fight for control. dalinar makes kaladin a captain, and kaladin is as insubordinate as he can get away with, and some. elokhar also wants to say his piece. jasnah doesn't struggle for power merely because she's so good at it that she wins automatically in every situation. Lift does whatever she pleases anyway. Taravangian schemes behind their backs.

And I'd like to strangle them all. they just make problems for all, and they can't settle things like reasonable adults, by talking and making agreements. They often feel like spoiled brats. I always liked followers and supporting characters more than protagonists.

Finally we have somebody who does not have deep-seated issues. Finally we have someone who is willing to help others achieve greatness without resenting to be overshadowed. Finally we have someone who can think and act like a responsible adult. I'd much rather trust the fate of the world to somebody like that. And finally, in a world of superheroes, we have someone who can hold his own without. He should be in inspiration to alll normal people.

That said, I also don't like how brandon keeps him around all the time, while actively trying to push hiim in the background. Like, he is always in the middle of the scene, but he gets very little pow time. He is often on the outskirts of important stuff, but when a main character has to make a scene, adolin get stuffed in a closet so he won't steal the scene. The whole story conspite to put his character arcs, like the murering of sadeas, in the background.

 

By the way, I disagree that adolin got everything. his father was an ax-crazy warlord turned alcohol addict who ignored him for most of his life and treated him like a soldier for the rest. His mother was a good person and raised him well, but she was killed when he was twelve. He grew up surrounded by backstabbing snobbish people. His rank precluded him many friendship. I would say he had just as much reason as kaladin to turn out depressed.

Edited March 19, 2018 by king of nowhere

[Ailvara]

@king of nowhere It's not about him controlling those emotions. It's about the fact, that too often he simply doesn't have them. And I don't feel like he's just sane and stable either. He actually lacks some reactions a healthy person would usually have. His stability is actually not entirely normal. 

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

The problem I have with Adolin more personally is actually connected to that. He's never bothered. He had some worries about Dalinar in WoK, and then got a moment with Sadeas, but that's pretty much it - and it's been a while. I know he's meant to light up the mood, but there are... limits.

I think this is a consequence of his limited viewpoints. They're sparse enough that it's pretty much always focused on the matter of something else than his personal issues. 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

He murdered a guy? Fine with it.

He wasn't. He threw himself into the organizational efforts of Urithiru, where he wasn't needed, to keep himself busy constantly so he wouldn't have to think about it and face what he did. 

When he finally did admit it to someone he trusted and cared for, what was the reaction he got? About as far from "how could you?" as you can get.

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

A family member dies? I'll think about it later.

Same coping mechanism as after Sadeas (and a much more minor version of the same thing Shallan does.) 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

My father is going to die? I'll worry a bit (?) but less than Kaladin.

Kaladin was frustrated at the difficulty of his job. Adolin refused to get out of his plate, and tried to stay vigilant to the point of exhaustion from fear that the Assassin would come back. 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

He needs to re-establish his place in the era of wonders? Oh, well, I guess they're awesome.

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

My fiancee likes another guy? Well, understandable.

These two in my mind, are inextricably linked. Adolin has shown a constant worry about not being good enough. He makes me think of someone with imposter syndrome. So when the Radiants appear, he's just a little more outclassed. Let's keep up that confident act. Oh, my fiancé likes one of them.... Well of course she does. Why wouldn't she. 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

Oh, she doesn't? Ok then, let's get married.

Oh, she's says I'm wrong and she does want to be with me? Guess I'm not a good judge. 

It all makes sense, in my opinion. I think the major problem though, is that unlike other characters we see, the majority of the clues with Adolin are seen through the eyes of others. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Vissy said:

I hate it too. Adolin is a character with very interesting possibilities attached to his development, but Sanderson seems adamant in his belief that Adolin Is Not Interesting and writes him accordingly. My biggest problems honestly come from his complete lack of page-time (and thus lack of introspection about the murder). It's telling that his beta readers had to tell him to include more Adolin into the story, when he should've added those scenes during the alpha or gamma stages of writing at least. 

This has become a problem for me: the fact what there seem to be a severe clash in between what I find interesting to explore with characters and what Brandon finds interesting. It is obvious the author found writing an intensive arc over Shallan fracturing into several personalities, as a character arc, was more interesting then exploring what it meant not to be a Radiant in a world where all your relatives are. The concept of "once being at the top" and now "left out", "rejected" was really interesting and it would have helped put more perspective onto the Radiants. Instead, we've got to read a full narrative which was essentially pointless and aimless. Shallan creating personalities only to realize she shouldn't be doing it as it only serves as means not to, yet again, face her issues was the most unsatisfying character arc I have ever read. It had no purpose. Shallan does something to herself which she now has to undone: end of story. Of course, there are readers who loved her arc, but it didn't work out for me and it highlights how Brandon and I strongly disagree on what is an interesting character arc. 

An interesting character development has a purpose, a resolution: it fits within the narrative, it enhances the narrative and it helps make a protagonist more sympathetic, not less. In this optic, emphasizing the one aspect of Shallan's characters readers criticized before, the fact she is a lying manipulator, was an odd choice for me. It also removed the focus from elsewhere, from much more interesting discussion with respect to Radiants inter-action and inter-actions with non-Radiant. 

Therefore, I do think what Brandon thinks of Adolin and what I think of Adolin are two completely different set of ideas. Unfortunately, as long as Brandon doesn't agree Adolin's character needs more fleshing out and a better, stronger narrative, he isn't going to get it. Adolin's character had everything in place for a really good strong narrative: why an author of Brandon's caliber is not seeing the story he refused to tell, why he isn't thinking this is interesting, I cannot even begin to offer an explanation, because I have none.

8 hours ago, IronBars said:

I think in OB he was shunted to the side more then in WoK, WoR, and this fact coupled with the lack of a reaction to the murder of Sadeas both internally and externally ruined any potential he had moving forward imo.

Adolin was indeed shoved into the background after having gotten two really nice chapters. The break of tone and the lack of continuity it offered for his character was so blatant I, once again, do not understand why Brandon did not see it. He usually makes sure all of his narrative are tied together and coherent, why has he failed with Adolin? I honestly do not know.

6 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I think I'm in a small minority that cared very little for Adolin's murder plot. In fact, I don't think I've seen anyone else say they were happy with how that played out in OB. I was glad that we got a few instances of him emphasizing that he'd do it again in a heartbeat and that it was otherwise left in the dirt, buried by everything else going on. Unpopular opinion, I know.  

And you have just proven another one of my rules! On average, readers who liked the Sadeas arc tend to be the readers who didn't care about it. For me, this yet another problem with Oathbringer. I don't find it normal most narratives readers were emotionally engaged into turned out to be unsatisfying for those. I don't find it normal the readers who enjoyed some of those arcs turned to be those who didn't care about them... This is really odd to me. It is the same with Adolin... either readers like him as a side-kick and are fine with how he progressed or they thought he had much potential and were disappointed to see so little of it being explored. Mind, those very same readers, including myself, would probably be OK with Oathbringer would Brandon publicly and verbally commit to writing a better narrative for the character within the future book. Readers can be patient: if they knew something was coming down the line, such as with Jasnah and Renarin, then they wouldn't complain so much.

Unfortunately, Adolin is basically the only character Brandon has promised he would write as little as possible of, just because. This is very odd to me... 

For the rest, Adolin's reaction in OB clashed with the reaction he initially had in WoR. In WoR, he speaks of a fog leaving his brain, he is traumatized, he doesn't act like a man who's owning it nor who's pleased with himself. He acts like a man who acted on an impulse he couldn't control and was horrified by what he ended up doing even if the man deserved it. Changing the tone to make Adolin not care, not be affected and just be utterly fine he has killed his very first human being (it is stated later in OB Sadeas was actually Adolin's first human kill) did not work out for me. It was convenient which is about the only reason I can think why Brandon went with it: he didn't want to bother himself, so he made the character not care without caring if it matched the narrative he previously wrote.

5 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

This was my opinion as well, especially considering what ended up happening to House Sadeas in the end. Having this become a huge deal then get fixed because House Sadeas is basically dead would be a waste of time. I'm more interested in seeing how this will affect his relationship with Dalinar moving forward.

House Sadeas is dead because of Adolin. They turned rogue because of Adolin. Had someone commented on it, it might have made the whole arc worth reading, but the fact non one, including Adolin, actually feel someone other than Odium is perhaps to blame was a huge miss for me.

5 hours ago, IronBars said:

I imagine the revelation Dalinar killed Adolins mother, hid the truth, covered it all up, lied for however many years, will affect there relationship much more, compared to that Adolin killing Sadeas should be like a drop of water falling in n ocean.

Unfortunately, Dalinar killing Evi looks WAY too much like Kaladin killing Helaran: a tempest within an empty glass. It is a narrative element which should matter but likely will not. I currently read it exactly like Helaran... No way Adolin is ever going to think ill of his father. Impossible. This is a pure Red Herring.

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Jofwu @Mage of Lirigon

THE MURDER FIASCO™ was honestly handled well in my opinion. I was curious as to what the implications would be, and had discussed it previously, but the moment that it became clear no one knew... The murder served the Re-Shepir plot, and ultimately the Sadeas army possession was a result of Adolin's actions. 

So it wasn't the story I expected to see happen, but I enjoyed it and don't see how a murder/investigation/politics/punishment plot would have been better in a book that already gets flak for being politic heavy. 

IMHO, the Re-Shephir story arc was a poor replacement for the tension having been built around Adolin's character upon him being named investigator of his own murder. This was so interesting, Re-Shephir utterly failed to pick up the tension and couldn't make me forget, all the while Shallan was boringly getting drunk, Adolin was stressed out like he's never been before and we aren't getting to read it. What about all the clues left onto the murder scene? I never expected a very long narrative on the matter, but I expected the internal consequences Adolin would feel would matter into the narrative, they would be explored. 

It wouldn't have been difficult: adding a few more viewpoints for Adolin, keeping tab with the character, doing something with him other than have him ignore he has just murdered a man.

4 hours ago, Starla said:

Adolin is similar to Lift and Lopen for me. The story could progress without them, but it might feel too heavy if they weren't around to brighten the mood a bit. They face everything with a smile and a joke and nothing seems to perturb them, which provides a good contrast to all of the other flawed and broken characters in the story. I like having a little brightness within my tales of impending doom and destruction.

I disagree. Remove Adolin from the narrative and we have a completely different story. Remove Lift/Lopen absolutely nothing changes. Adolin is so intervened with the main narrative, he just cannot be taken out without impacting the narrative. 

2 hours ago, Del-light-full said:

I don't have as strong feelings about him as I do the others; I love his protectiveness of Renarin and how healthy he is for Shallan. And in a world of powered people, it's refreshing to have a character who has to do things the hard way, who hates flying, who has to just deal with insanity going on around him all the time. 

That's interesting: but we didn't get to read it. We read almost nothing of Adolin. As for him being protective of Shallan/Renarin, it has gotten old for me in OB. They are the Radiants, they have the super-powers: they should be protecting HIM, not the other way around. It would have made such a nice flip around I will forever be sad Brandon didn't see fit to explore it.

2 hours ago, Comatose said:

In my opinion, I think one of the frustrating things about Adolin’s plot for me has to do with SA being a long series.  As the three current major characters,  Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar seem to drive the majority of the plot, they tend to have more satisfying resolutions each book.  Secondary and tertiary characters who don’t get as many viewpoints seem to have less progress.

In previous books, I saw Adolin’s plot line as having more momentum, but in this book some of that shifted to Renarin and Jasnah, who each got big moments at the finale, and Elhokar, whose arc met its conclusion.  If Elhokar was my favourite, I think I would have been pretty impatient up until this point, so that thought helps me get some perspective on waiting for Adolin to get more resolution.   

 I’m hoping that once the series is done (or even when the first five are done) Adolin’s side arc will be more cohesive and satisfying.   I know Ialai is still around and I’m hoping the murder continues to be an issue going forward or gets some further resolution.  

This is a problem: Adolin had momentum. Why does an author take a character having a lot of momentum and interesting arcs revolving around him and shove him into the background? It is baffling. What Brandon did with OB, I just do not understand what drove his choices.

Arguably, Adolin's character arc could be rescued and turned into a very satisfying one, but without Brandon acknowledging he does have plans worth reading for the character, it may be a semi-lost cause.

[IronBars he/him]

11 minutes ago, maxal said:

Unfortunately, Dalinar killing Evi looks WAY too much like Kaladin killing Helaran: a tempest within an empty glass. It is a narrative element which should matter but likely will not. I currently read it exactly like Helaran... No way Adolin is ever going to think ill of his father. Impossible. This is a pure Red Herring.

Adolin should have a massive reaction to this, if your right and its swept under the rug so to speak i would be massively disappointed.

Actually i had the thought that this news breaks Adolin completly, and from it Odium gains his new champion, there would be a certain symmetry to this happening. 

Dalinar being the original chosen champion, and his son becoming said champion because of Dalinars own lies.

There is alot of ways the revelation of Evis death/cover up could go, i like the one above, but it has to go somewhere imo.

[Delightful]

@maxal i disagree with you about Shallan. A lot of the books/Radiance is about mental illness, and sometimes that means regression, not constantly exploding with light and fixing all your problems in an even progression of improvement. Its realistic this way. Plus it gave us those amazing scenes with Wit.

[Prelude]

OB is where I found Andolin’s character and his responses to be unbelievable. Everything rolls off him so easily. Where was the heat and anger we saw in the other two books? His thoughts about fashion were off putting given he is hiding he committed murder,  shows little concern for how this affects his father and his easy acceptance of seeing Shallan making eyes at Kaladin. I really liked Andolin up until this book. Where is that guy? 

[king of nowhere]

44 minutes ago, maxal said:

 Shallan creating personalities only to realize she shouldn't be doing it as it only serves as means not to, yet again, face her issues was the most unsatisfying character arc I have ever read. It had no purpose. Shallan does something to herself which she now has to undone: end of story. Of course, there are readers who loved her arc, but it didn't work out for me and it highlights how Brandon and I strongly disagree on what is an interesting character arc.

Probably it is part of the greater plan for her arc that will unfold in the next two books. with kaladin and dalinar doing very well at fighting their demons, brandon needed someone to take a few steps backwards to keep the tension in his protagonists.

Quote

 For the rest, Adolin's reaction in OB clashed with the reaction he initially had in WoR. In WoR, he speaks of a fog leaving his brain, he is traumatized, he doesn't act like a man who's owning it nor who's pleased with himself. He acts like a man who acted on an impulse he couldn't control and was horrified by what he ended up doing even if the man deserved it. Changing the tone to make Adolin not care, not be affected and just be utterly fine he has killed his very first human being (it is stated later in OB Sadeas was actually Adolin's first human kill) did not work out for me.
 

Well, he was still traumatized during his first viewpoint in OB. It's not too unreasonable in the next weeks he considered the thing some more and found out he actually was ok with it. he came to terms with it, so to speak.

 

Quote

Unfortunately, Dalinar killing Evi looks WAY too much like Kaladin killing Helaran: a tempest within an empty glass. It is a narrative element which should matter but likely will not. I currently read it exactly like Helaran... No way Adolin is ever going to think ill of his father. Impossible. This is a pure Red Herring.

 

dalinar has progressed a lot since those days. I think adolin will forgive him heartily. of course, there should be some angst at the revelation.

[Dreamstorm]

I don't know if I have much to add, but I want to comment first on the situation Brandon has written himself into, and then why some of this Adolin controversy gives me hope for the future. 

I voted neutral.  After WoR, this would have been mostly positive.  Why did this change?  Simply, in WoK and WoR, Adolin was less likeable.  He was frivolous, a bit of a cad, worried about superficial things like his house's reputation over his father's madness, racist (against dark eyes), concerned with status, a bit mean (to Kaladin), etc., but this was balanced with a genuinely kind, loyal, funny, friendly, outgoing person.  (Btw, I know a lot of people disagree with my list of "bad" traits, but this is just my opinion and why I liked Adolin.)  In OB, as many have mentioned before, these bad traits appear to have disappeared.  Adolin is more likeable, but this makes him IMO, a worse character.  Many of the popular plotlines for Adolin's future development would not do anything for me in terms of developing Adolin's character, as they would make him even more likeable.  Revive his deadeye by being nice to her - more likable, furious at his father for his mother's death - more likeable, supportive and amazing to his mentally ill wife - more likeable.  I see three storylines which have great potential, but since these would serve to make him less likeable, I think they would be on the whole quite unpopular to the fanbase.

1. Feelings about Sadeas murder:  Brandon has said that there are characters who would feel this is very, very wrong, something we did not see in OB.  Who could this be?  My bet is on Evi, who would have not been happy with her son killing someone in cold blood.  WoB also says Adolin's early morality came from his mother, so I am thinking there could be internal ramifications about Adolin's own disgust in himself for being satisfied with the murder, which will lead him down a dark path.  (Warring subconscious and all that.)
2. Relationship issues:  This was supposed to have a large impact on Adolin's character arc per WoB, but we haven't seen anything come of it so far.  I'm thinking Adolin is the one who brings about the downfall of his marriage as an extension on these issues, and this puts forward another reason for Adolin to be upset at his own actions and reactions.  (Again, Evi would not be OK with this IMO.)
3. Abdicating responsibility to be king:  Was it bad that Adolin didn't want to become king and managed to get out of it?  I am thinking yes, which is yet another thing where what Adolin wants (to not be king) wars with what Adolin knows is really right (to shoulder responsibility.)

So.... you have an author who has created an extremely likeable character, who may be the most beloved character in Stormlight, and whose fanbase is enamored because of that likeability.  Can you really go down any of these paths and make that character less likeable?  Isn't that betraying your fanbase?  (I'm guessing the majority of this fandom would not like any of the above to come to fruition.)  That is why I am pessimistic about where we are going with Adolin - I don't know if Brandon is willing to exploit storylines which would place Adolin in a negative light but that I think would add (or re-add) nuance to Adolin's character.  One thing gives me hope though....

51 minutes ago, Calderis said:

2 hours ago, Ailvara said:

The problem I have with Adolin more personally is actually connected to that. He's never bothered. He had some worries about Dalinar in WoK, and then got a moment with Sadeas, but that's pretty much it - and it's been a while. I know he's meant to light up the mood, but there are... limits.

I think this is a consequence of his limited viewpoints. They're sparse enough that it's pretty much always focused on the matter of something else than his personal issues. 

I quoted this more as an example of what I see as an interesting phenomenon with Adolin.  Adolin actually has a lot of viewpoints (fourth most prominent viewpoint character), but they really don't tell us all that much about him, or what they do tell us can be read in vastly different ways.  That is why @Ailvara can feel one way about the exact same events and both her and Calderis perspectives can make complete sense depending on how you view Adolin.  It doesn't take a lot of page time to develop a character's emotions.  Look at Renarin - three (?) partial viewpoints (not even full chapters), and I feel like we as readers have a more cohesive view of Renarin as a character than we do of Adolin.  Brandon is a skilled enough author that he could have developed Adolin into a more cohesive character.  Shoutout @maxal who is always saying that Brandon didn't do a good job in convincing people of various things about Adolin, which is exactly my point - if he meant to convince readers, why did he do such a poor job of it?  I realize Adolin may be clear to a reader in their own minds, but overall and moreso than any other character I've seen in the Cosmere, there are people with very strongly held feelings about Adolin that are polar opposites.  My hope (hope!) is that this is intentional, and it's not that Brandon dropped the ball, but that he has left Adolin vague on purpose in order to allow his plans for Adolin down the road to connect to what we know of him, yet still flip the script on how he's generally viewed - as this so, so likeable guy.  But, I realize this could be a lot of wishful thinking as well!  (And would also make a lot of readers quite unhappy!)

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Adolin should have a massive reaction to this, if your right and its swept under the rug so to speak i would be massively disappointed.

Actually i had the thought that this news breaks Adolin completly, and from it Odium gains his new champion, there would be a certain symmetry to this happening. 

Dalinar being the original chosen champion, and his son becoming said champion because of Dalinars own lies.

There is alot of ways the revelation of Evis death/cover up could go, i like the one above, but it has to go somewhere imo.

Adolin should have a reaction, I agree with you, but he probably won't. He has suffered his father being a useless dismissive overly-critical drunk for years. He has watched his father ignored his brother and refuse to acknowledge his existence and yet, despite all Adolin witnessed, he is unable to blame Dalinar. It wasn't enough for him to start viewing his father through anything else but perfect lenses where he is the greatest man in the entire universe.

It has become hard to believe finding out he had a hand in his mother dying would have enough of an impact to sway Adolin's thoughts here. Hence, it probably is a Red Herring.

I however don't believe in Adolin as Odium's Champion: he just doesn't have the crippling guilt nor the vengeful angry inclinations which are required to be manipulated into becoming the Champion.

7 minutes ago, Del-light-full said:

@maxal i disagree with you about Shallan. A lot of the books/Radiance is about mental illness, and sometimes that means regression, not constantly exploding with light and fixing all your problems in an even progression of improvement. Its realistic this way. Plus it gave us those amazing scenes with Wit.

My personal thoughts are Shalan's story arc didn't have enough of a purpose to deserve the spotlight it got in OB. The same narrative would have been, IMHO, more effective if less over-powering. Also, a narrative which works, for me as a reader, is one I actually enjoy reading. I can enjoy regression, but I did not enjoy Shallan in OB: it was just too much.

25 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Probably it is part of the greater plan for her arc that will unfold in the next two books. with kaladin and dalinar doing very well at fighting their demons, brandon needed someone to take a few steps backwards to keep the tension in his protagonists.

The arc didn't work out for me, not because it was a regression, but because it was a pointless one and not one I thought was even interesting to read. We had Kaladin surf in status quo, not progressed, regressed even and all of it was interesting. IMHO, Shallan doesn't work, for some readers such as myself, because the arc amplifies what some readers disliked about the character: her lies. It also has been three books, three books of Shallan refusing to deal with her past. It is a tad long, it doesn't matter if it realistic. Realistic would be Shallan never healing, never dealing, never progressing, not without professional help and a great dose of will power, but none of this makes up for the best narrative in a work of fantasy. Of course, this remains my personal opinion and I am aware some readers did love the arc, but for me, it had too much focus.

28 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Well, he was still traumatized during his first viewpoint in OB. It's not too unreasonable in the next weeks he considered the thing some more and found out he actually was ok with it. he came to terms with it, so to speak.

While it isn't unreasonable to think this might have happened, without viewpoints, readers are not getting the progression here. As an author, it is either you write a character or you don't: you don't just start writing a character only to drop him when one you prefers comes around, get back to him without any linking agent thinking: "Oh the readers will connect the dots". This just doesn't work out for me. Had Brandon not made Adolin a viewpoint character, my thoughts would be entirely difference, but he did. He made him one of the most prominent one. He had as much page within the first two books as Dalinar. Hence, the broken down half-explained narrative for Adolin did not work out for me.

Write Adolin or do not write him, but stop leaving him in the middle with half chewed up arcs or so are my thoughts.

32 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

dalinar has progressed a lot since those days. I think adolin will forgive him heartily. of course, there should be some angst at the revelation.

Yeah, these are my thoughts, but this makes up for about the most boring outcome   However, Brandon always seems to go with the "boring outcome" with Adolin. Everything he's ever written for the character has turned out not mattering. I don't even know if Brandon realizes this.

21 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I quoted this more as an example of what I see as an interesting phenomenon with Adolin.  Adolin actually has a lot of viewpoints (fourth most prominent viewpoint character), but they really don't tell us all that much about him, or what they do tell us can be read in vastly different ways.  That is why @Ailvara can feel one way about the exact same events and both her and Calderis perspectives can make complete sense depending on how you view Adolin.  It doesn't take a lot of page time to develop a character's emotions.  Look at Renarin - three (?) partial viewpoints (not even full chapters), and I feel like we as readers have a more cohesive view of Renarin as a character than we do of Adolin.  Brandon is a skilled enough author that he could have developed Adolin into a more cohesive character.  Shoutout @maxal who is always saying that Brandon didn't do a good job in convincing people of various things about Adolin, which is exactly my point - if he meant to convince readers, why did he do such a poor job of it?  I realize Adolin may be clear to a reader in their own minds, but overall and moreso than any other character I've seen in the Cosmere, there are people with very strongly held feelings about Adolin that are polar opposites.  My hope (hope!) is that this is intentional, and it's not that Brandon dropped the ball, but that he has left Adolin vague on purpose in order to allow his plans for Adolin down the road to connect to what we know of him, yet still flip the script on how he's generally viewed - as this so, so likeable guy.  But, I realize this could be a lot of wishful thinking as well!  (And would also make a lot of readers quite unhappy!)

I think Brandon did a poor job because Brandon underestimates how his readers are viewing Adolin's character. I think the feedback he gets from the fandom is overall very limited. He sees Adolin as a straight-forward character he doesn't need to spend much time writing, he sees Renarin as an incredibly complex character needing intense focus to be cohesive, hence he writes one as an after-thought, but he applies when he writes the second.

I wish you are right and Brandon indeed has a plan, a good plan, but nothing he has ever said, on the topic of Adolin, makes me believe he actually does. I think Adolin just happens because of Brandon's bias: not that Brandon has a bias against the character, but his beliefs he needs no introspective viewpoints, his beliefs he is self-explanatory makes him under-estimate the focus he needs to give him to make the character: 1) work, 2) be coherent.

My dream would be to find a way to communicate these thoughts to Brandon as, perhaps if he sees how polarizing the character is, he will decide he needs to fill in the gaps better. However reality probably is Brandon doesn't care if the character is polarizing or if he hasn't convinced some readers: a story cannot be everything to all readers. Some readers like how he chose to narrative the story, so those who didn't, well, just to bad. It isn't as if the book isn't selling well or it getting awful critics all over the web.

For the rest, if Adolin is to be remain relevant and interesting in the narrative, he sorely needs a flaw, he needs to fail. 

[Calderis he/him]

32 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I quoted this more as an example of what I see as an interesting phenomenon with Adolin.  Adolin actually has a lot of viewpoints (fourth most prominent viewpoint character), but they really don't tell us all that much about him, or what they do tell us can be read in vastly different ways.  That is why @Ailvara can feel one way about the exact same events and both her and Calderis perspectives can make complete sense depending on how you view Adolin.

Fair enough, and I don't disagree with your point. It is murky. 

My point though was less about the number, and more about how, as you said, they don't give us much about Adolin himself. Other than the Shadesmar sequence, Adolin is almost always focused on something other than himself or his feelings. 

For his viewpoints, we gain a dearth of information on the political situation, his thoughts about another character.  

In the scope of these conversations, it's particularly infuriating. If it is intentional, it's masterfully done. If it's not... 

[king of nowhere]

15 minutes ago, maxal said:

While it isn't unreasonable to think this might have happened, without viewpoints, readers are not getting the progression here. As an author, it is either you write a character or you don't: you don't just start writing a character only to drop him when one you prefers comes around, get back to him without any linking agent thinking: "Oh the readers will connect the dots". This just doesn't work out for me. Had Brandon not made Adolin a viewpoint character, my thoughts would be entirely difference, but he did. He made him one of the most prominent one. He had as much page within the first two books as Dalinar. Hence, the broken down half-explained narrative for Adolin did not work out for me.

Write Adolin or do not write him, but stop leaving him in the middle with half chewed up arcs or so are my thoughts.

Fully agree with that. adolin story is full of expectation that do not pay off.

 

Quote

 

Yeah, these are my thoughts, but this makes up for about the most boring outcome   However, Brandon always seems to go with the "boring outcome" with Adolin. Everything he's ever written for the character has turned out not mattering. I don't even know if Brandon realizes this.

alas, true dat

[Farnsworth]

I like Adolin as a character, but I'm not that interested in what happens to him because I am more interested in the magic of the planet and greater Cosmere than I am in any individual character. Kaladin is the leader of the Windrunners. Shallan is figuring out what is going on with the Ghostbloods, and the first Lightweaver to come up. Dalinar is Bondsmith, can create Perpendicularities, and bonded with the Stormfather. Renarin is part Voidbinder. Most characters are extremely relevant to the greater plot as a whole. Adolin just doesn't seem to be. He's a nice guy, an interesting character, but doesn't seem relevant to the Cosmere as a whole.

[Jofwu he/him]

9 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Having this become a huge deal then get fixed because House Sadeas is basically dead would be a waste of time.

That's a good way to word it.

Well, apparently this isn't as unpopular as I thought. Seems like this always gets mentioned in peoples' "top 5 things wrong with OB" lists. At least there's a few of us.

[Stormlightning she/her]

I really like Adolin. People says he falls flat, but I don't think they are looking very hard.

There are some serious curiosities about him; how is he so well adjusted despite 1) having a mostly absent father in his childhood and 2) being at a very tender age when his mother was violently murdered (even if he doesn't know the real story)? I'm really curious to see what happens when he does learn the real story.

Both with his personality and in literary ways, he's a lot like his mother. He comes off with a lot of her pure intent, which alone makes him fascinating to me since it's so rare in good fantasy. But he's also capable of killing when needed; nevertheless, the Thrill never seems to really get to him. He has a very fair balance of mother and father in him. I get the vibe that he's this warrior's son living on a battlefield, and yet emulating his mother in every way he can, which must take a lot of inner self-acceptance. Peer pressure hardly gets to him. And that fleshes him out a lot to me.

The boy doesn't have a single proud bone in his body. As has been mentioned, his storylines have a tendency to get pushed under the rug. And how does Adolin react? In a way that seems consistent to me with what we've seen at other times; he lets go of his ego completely and focuses on the other characters in the same way we do. That might make him look like he's just a plot device, but I think it's actually a part of his character design (yes, @Calderis, I'm on the boat that his focus on other characters is both intentional and fitting). He was happy but not really egotistical after defeating 4 shardbearers--he was focused on someone else's bigger purpose. He stuck himself in prison with Kaladin due to a personal moral code and did so gladly. No one was cheering for him when he got out, but he didn't care. Everyone around him, even his little brother, are becoming big-shots while he stays static, and he just cheers them on. He loved Shallan deeply and never used her status in selfish ways (not to mention his incredible ability to let her struggle and grow while helping her along just enough without being smothering or judgmental). And when he suspected someone else might be what she wanted, he gave in without a fight (even if a tad misled). Adolin is an absolute GEM. GEM GEM GEM. 

He might never become a major character, but I will take as much of him as I can get.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Stormlightning

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

In the scope of these conversations, it's particularly infuriating. If it is intentional, it's masterfully done. If it's not... 

Can you expand on your last comment? You say if Adolin's viewpoints rarely focusing on him, as a character (which is true) is either infuriating or masterfully done... What do you mean by masterfully? Everything about Adolin's character and how he has been explored is infuriating because he is one of the major players within the narrative, but he's the only one we never get insights on.

Without Adolin, Sadeas would be alive and the ending climax wouldn't have carried the weight it did with Amaram and the Sadeas's former princedom's betrayal. 

Without Adolin, they wouldn't have had a safe house in Kholinar, they wouldn't have known where to go.

Without Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin would probably not have escaped Kholinar. He literally dragged them through the oathgate. Take him away and the entire palace attack just isn't happening as it did.

Without Adolin, the thunderclast would have destroyed the oathgate as Renarin would have gotten there too late to stop it. He might not have defeated the creature, but he did slow it down.

His character has an important place within the narrative, he is an important player. So why can't his narrative reflect this fact? The only characters having an equally important role within the narrative are Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar. As such, why is Brandon allowing one of his important player to be so lacking in characterization remains a mystery, but I don't think he is doing it because he has a masterful plan.

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Fully agree with that. adolin story is full of expectation that do not pay off.

Yes, precisely. Adolin's character has a lot of interesting things happening to him which are engaging to readers, which feels like promises for a greater narrative, but the ultimately always end up not being about him. Like Sadeas. 

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

alas, true dat

Which is why I do not think Brandon will use the fact Dalinar murdered Evi as an event to torment Adolin and I half-believe he will find a way to make Maya NOT be about Adolin.

11 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

I really like Adolin. People says he falls flat, but I don't think they are looking very hard.

There are some serious curiosities about him; how is he so well adjusted despite 1) having a mostly absent father in his childhood and 2) being at a very tender age when his mother was violently murdered (even if he doesn't know the real story)? I'm really curious to see what happens when he does learn the real story.

Both with his personality and in literary ways, he's a lot like his mother. He comes off with a lot of her pure intent, which alone makes him fascinating to me since it's so rare in good fantasy. But he's also capable of killing when needed; nevertheless, the Thrill never seems to really get to him. He has a very fair balance of mother and father in him. I get the vibe that he's this warrior's son living on a battlefield, and yet emulating his mother in every way he can, which must take a lot of inner self-acceptance. Peer pressure hardly gets to him. And that fleshes him out a lot to me.

The boy doesn't have a single proud bone in his body. As has been mentioned, his storylines have a tendency to get pushed under the rug. And how does Adolin react? In a way that seems consistent to me with what we've seen at other times; he lets go of his ego completely and focuses on the other characters in the same way we do. That might make him look like he's just a plot device, but I think it's actually a part of his character design. He was happy but not really egotistical after defeating 4 shardbearers--he was focused on someone else's bigger purpose. He stuck himself in prison with Kaladin due to a personal moral code and did so gladly. No one was cheering for him when he got out, but he didn't care. Everyone around him, even his little brother, are becoming big-shots while he stays static, and he just cheers them on. He loved Shallan deeply and never used her status in selfish ways (not to mention his incredible ability to let her struggle and grow while helping her along just enough without being smothering or judgmental). And when he suspected someone else might be what she wanted, he gave in without a fight (even if a tad misled). Adolin is an absolute GEM. GEM GEM GEM.

He might never become a major character, but I will take as much of him as I can get.

The problem I see is the word "static". How realistic is it for an individual to remain so static in times of great changes? How realistic is it for an individual to NEVER be affected by any event, to always put himself last, to never feel envy nor jealousy, to constantly step down? And, more importantly, how interesting is it for a character to have literally no flaw?

Where are Adolin's flaws? Everyone has them. Why aren't we seeing them in the narrative? Why is he written like a Mary Sue who can never do no wrong?

When some of us are saying Adolin falls flat, it's usually because the character seems to have no inner motivations, no character flaws and is never affected by hardships. He's just... there and sure, he's an angel, but where's the rest of him?

[Calderis he/him]

12 minutes ago, maxal said:

Can you expand on your last comment? You say if Adolin's viewpoints rarely focusing on him, as a character (which is true) is either infuriating or masterfully done... What do you mean by masterfully? Everything about Adolin's character and how he has been explored is infuriating because he is one of the major players within the narrative, but he's the only one we never get insights on.

I meant if the dichotomy created in the fandom in their read of Adolin is intentional, that was masterfully done. A character that can believably be interpreted in two so diametrically opposed ways is rare. It's either a horrible misrepresentation on Brandon's part, or a genius move that's going to eventually devastate a good chunk of Adolin fans/haters depending on which way it swings. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I meant if the dichotomy created in the fandom in their read of Adolin is intentional, that was masterfully done. A character that can believably be interpreted in two so diametrically opposed ways is rare. It's either a horrible misrepresentation on Brandon's part, or a genius move that's going to eventually devastate a good chunk of Adolin fans/haters depending on which way it swings. 

Ah thanks for the explanation. I once said Adolin was interestingly written because the narrative got the readers to see him exactly how he tries to be seen by others which is the slightly spoiled dumb arrogant Prince. As such, readers were having exactly the same experience with the character as the in-world characters were having. It also made his actions unexpected because they aren't those you expect out of the character he presents himself as. 

This however was largely tossed away in Oathbringer.

Now, I honestly do not see which readers Brandon will please if he keeps on half-writing the character.

[Narcoleptic Axolotl he/him]

I'm just glad Brandon didn't go ahead and make ALL the Kholins into radiants.

[IronBars he/him]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin should have a reaction, I agree with you, but he probably won't. He has suffered his father being a useless dismissive overly-critical drunk for years. He has watched his father ignored his brother and refuse to acknowledge his existence and yet, despite all Adolin witnessed, he is unable to blame Dalinar. It wasn't enough for him to start viewing his father through anything else but perfect lenses where he is the greatest man in the entire universe.

It has become hard to believe finding out he had a hand in his mother dying would have enough of an impact to sway Adolin's thoughts here. Hence, it probably is a Red Herring.

I however don't believe in Adolin as Odium's Champion: he just doesn't have the crippling guilt nor the vengeful angry inclinations which are required to be manipulated into becoming the Champion.

Adolin certainly has blinkers on with regards how he views Dalinar, however im hopeful the revelation about Evi's death is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back, an opens Adolins eyes.

That would do a great deal for Adolins character, and once the flood gates are open i can see it leading to everything you just said he wasn't in regards becoming Odiums new champion, as i said it has symmetry, and would make alot of narrative sense.

[Song she/her]

Do we have any WoB on Adolin never being more than a side character? I keep reading comments that hint at this and I am just curious. I have sometimes wondered if he might move more to the centre in the back half, but maybe we already know that is not the case.

[Calderis he/him]

17 minutes ago, Song said:

Do we have any WoB on Adolin never being more than a side character? I keep reading comments that hint at this and I am just curious. I have sometimes wondered if he might move more to the centre in the back half, but maybe we already know that is not the case.

For the most part, it seems to be a combination of these two WoBs. It's an assumption, because Brandon is free to change his mind as he sees fit, but it's an accurate one according to the things that Brandon has said. 

Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

Quote

cinderwild2323

What is the biggest change you've made based on alpha/beta reader feedback? (This goes for any of your books)

Brandon Sanderson

Probably adding Adolin as a main viewpoint character in the first book, which was done because I had trouble striking the balance between Dalinar worrying he was mad, and being a proactive, confident character. Worried better to externalize some of the, "Am I mad" into his son worrying "My dad has gone crazy" while letting Dalinar be more confident that his visions were something important. (I still let him worry a little, of course, but in the original draft, he felt temperamental from vacillation between these two extremes.)

Bringing Adolin to the forefront in the books has had a huge ripple effect through them, as I've been very fond of how his character has been playing out.

Enasor

May I ask why you choose to use Adolin as the viewpoint character to supplement Dalinar as opposed to Renarin? My understanding is Renarin has always been the "most important brother" within SA, which made me wonder why, based on the beta readers comments, you ultimately decided to use Adolin and not your established character to bring forward the dilemma.

I am, obviously, extremely fond of how Adolin has been played out so far and while I have no idea where he is going (but zillions of theories), I am curious to know what his initial purpose in the story was. Did you draft the character's personality just for WoK's needs or did you have an idea of what to do with him when you made the change?

Brandon Sanderson

I was well aware that I needed certain things about Renarin to remain off-screen until later books, and him being a viewpoint character early would undermine these later books.

Adolin is a happy surprise and works exactly because he doesn't need to be at the forefront, even after I boosted his role. With Adolin, what you see is really what you get, which is refreshing in the books--but it also means I don't need huge numbers of pages to characterize him, delve into his backstory, etc. He works as a side character who gives more to the story than he demands pages to fullfill that giving, if that makes sense. Renarin is more like a pandora's box. Open him up, and we're committed to a LOT of pages. (Good pages, but that was the problem with TWOK Prime--everyone was demanding so many pages, from Renarn, to Jasnah, to Kaladin, to Taln, that none of their stories could progress.)

Adolin has basically always had the same personality, from TWOK Prime, through the original draft of the published TWOK, to the revision. The changes to making him more strong a viewpoint character were very natural, and he has remained basically the same person all along--just with an increased role in the story, and more development because of it.

I do discovery write character, usually, as a method of keeping the books from becoming slaves to their outlines. This means that Adolin has gone some new directions, but it's been a growth from the person he was in TWOK Prime. (Which you'll be able to see when I release it, sometime in the hopefully not distant future.)

source

Quote

Enasor

While I am glad to hear the book is going along well, I will not hide the fact I am severely disappointed by Adolin's lack of page time. I cannot believe we won't get to read his thoughts following the events of WoR. If there was one POV I wanted to read, it was his, but according to the planning, we won't, not until the very end of the book.

I truly appreciate the efforts done to keep the fans informed, but I cannot hide my disappointment. I guess it is better knowing now than finding it out about it after having waited for the book for another year.

Sorry.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't know if you're the same person who wrote to me in private, as I closed that window--so forgive me if I'm repeating myself somewhat.

I am well aware that many people are very interested in what is happening to Adolin, and I consider him one of the more interesting and unexpected developments of the series, in deviation from the original outline. I intend to dig into things with him in the book.

He's done a lot with very few viewpoints in the books so far. Why not read and see where he goes in this one?

Enasor

Thank you for your response. I have pondered on it all day yesterday.

Unfortunately, knowing Adolin doesn't have viewpoints until the last 100K words of the book basically is a show stopper for me. While I knew his story arc would never be as large as other characters, much to my sadness, I had hope he would, at the very least, remain a steady viewpoint character. My expectations for this book were to read more of him, especially considering how his story arc ended in WoR, not less.

Those very few words might be amazing, but it sounds too little and too late: especially knowing they are cramped into one of the smallest part of the book and shared with 5 other viewpoint characters including the three major ones.

My expectations sincerely were very different. It might my own fault for not having understood before how small Adolin's role was bond to be, but I cannot help being disappointed by it. If I knew Adolin had a bigger role waiting for him in later books, I would bear my time and think I only need to be more patient, but I know it will not happen.

So all in all, as much as I have loved the first two books, knowing Adolin's overall arc in so small in the upcoming book is a show stopper for me as a reader.

I truly appreciate your work as an author, but I had considered Adolin to be one of the major payers, despite the lack of flashbacks. I had expected him to be present within the story and not just through third person's perspective. Knowing it won't happen basically breaks the magic for me.

So sorry again.

Brandon Sanderson

I still think you're over reacting, and prematurely at that. Jasnah was a major force in the first book, and became many people's favorite, despite having no viewpoints. Sometimes, keeping someone from having viewpoints actually enhances their story.

Regardless, there is a bigger issue: the story cannot be everything to every reader. It must be the story I shape it to be; to try anything else is madness. You have the option, when reading, to edit the story in your experience of it, if you wish, to better match your desires. I have to tell the story the way my writing instincts say is the strongest, and this is the viewpoint breakdown that is best.

source

 

 

[insert_anagram_here]

Also this one:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/#e3836

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

In book one, a main character was absent from several parts. (Dalinar and Shallan alternated.) Same with Words of Radiance, where Dalinar skipped two parts, I believe.

Note that this is an absence of viewpoints from the character, not necessarily an absence of the character entirely.

The main characters of the first part of the Stormlight are Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar. Two more flashback character (Eshonai and Szeth) can be considered important characters without as many viewpoints, though in the above outline, I'd have listed them as tertiary characters in terms of number of viewpoints.

The actual tertiary characters are Jasnah, Adolin, Navani, and a few that I can't mention as it will be spoilers. These get significant screen time, but only have viewpoints here and there in the first five books. Jasnah, as I've said, grows more important in the back five. Others do as well.

 

[Vissy]

So if I interpret those WoBs right, Sanderson is essentially telling Adolin fans to quiet down because he doesn't intend to write anything for him. He did add some Adolin PoVs to the beginning of OB but well... that should've been done early enough so that he could actually accommodate the rest of the book for those viewpoints too, since there's now a big dichotomy between first part and the rest of the book. Not in the beta stage, when he hardly could judge how that inclusion affects the rest of the book or make the necessary edits. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Vissy