[OB] Moash theories <spoilers>

[Jensel14]

By now, we know it is possible to actually kill the Heralds and not just kill them through the use of a dagger from Odium's investiture and that Moash has been entrusted with it along with Jezrien's Honorblade. But it kind of strikes me as unusual that they only armed him with the honorblade after he has already murdered Jezrien. Is there any implication with him having it while he tried to kill the herald? I know that killing Jezrien is meant to be seen as more of a test of his loyalty/passion, but what if it wasn't an actual test but a requirement? What if they have a plan with Moash? One that might possibly involve killing all of the heralds and bonding with all of their honorblades? We already have a WoB that says a Radiant CAN bond with an honorblade, therefore giving him access to additional surges or making his surges a bit stronger if he has the honorblade of his own order. Can you imagine how powerful one man can become if he bonds with all ten of the honorblades? Wouldn't that make him the closest one to actually becoming Honor? What if this is Odium's plan for him all along? To have Moash gather all of the honorblades, then gather all of the splinters. Only now, he would become a twisted version of Honor, maybe Loyalty? Honoring his debt of gratitude from Odium? Seems to me that Moash's whole journey focuses about his revenge and lack of honor (betraying Kaladin). Is he fated to realize his mistakes and actually become the new shard of Honor?

Not to mention also that the original Parshendi were also from Honor. What if they were working against Odium to restore their old god?

What do you guys think?

[Calderis he/him]

The bond with the Honorblades is shallow, so the Heralds are more what they are from long term use of them, as they were fueled directly by Honor's investiture without the need to draw in Stormlight. 

A current person wielding an Honorblade is not nearly as powerful as the Heralds were before Honor's death and it definitely does not make them stronger than a Radiant. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible(in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

source

This can be seen in how long Kaladin can hold and use stormlight compared to what Szeth was able to do with the Honorblade. 

The depth of the bond is also responsible for the strength of the surgebinding. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

source

As holding all of the Honorblades would only have each surge repeated once, and all of years blades are the same shallow bond, it wouldn't achieve what you're hoping. 

1 hour ago, Jensel14 said:

Not to mention also that the original Parshendi were also from Honor. What if they were working against Odium to restore their old god?

Honor was never the Parshendi God. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Are the Parshendi of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not originally.

source

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Are the Parshendi of Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not originally.

source

Quote

PadraicSeebrr (paraphrased)

Are the Parshendi of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

source

 

[RShara she/her]

I don't think killing the Herald is a requirement for bonding their Honorblade.  Szeth is bonded with his for years, and Bridge 4 practiced with it too with no problems.

 

Having access to all 10 surges would be freaky, but not really that hard...assuming you know the Shin have the other 8 and can get them from them...

[digitalbusker he/him]

It could be that there was something they had to do with the dagger and the Honorblade before giving it to Moash, but we don't have any obvious clues what. It could also be that they didn't want to risk Jezrien seeing his blade, snapping into lucidity, and fighting back with it.

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

It could be that there was something they had to do with the dagger and the Honorblade before giving it to Moash, but we don't have any obvious clues what. It could also be that they didn't want to risk Jezrien seeing his blade, snapping into lucidity, and fighting back with it.

I think the explanation is simpler than that.  They didn't get the Honorblade until that point.  T stole it from Bridge 4.  Odium demanded it from T.  Odium gave it to the Fused.  The Fused gave it to Moash.  I think from when Odium got it from T to when they gave it to Moash was just a few hours.

[anna she/her]

7 hours ago, RShara said:

Having access to all 10 surges would be freaky, but not really that hard...assuming you know the Shin have the other 8 and can get them from them...

Even then, I don't think it would be too freaky.  It's essentially the surgebinding equivalent of a mistborn

[Stark he/him]

You don't even need all 10.  With the right five blades, you have all 10 surges already.

[Cognitive Shadow he/him]

Well, you would need 6 because we know that the cohesion surge is different for stonewards than it is for bondsmiths.

[RShara she/her]

56 minutes ago, Cognitive Shadow said:

Well, you would need 6 because we know that the cohesion surge is different for stonewards than it is for bondsmiths.

All the surges are only a little bit different between Orders.  So five would be fine.

[Willshaping Crasher]

If anything, I think Moash would be a good fit for the Odium shard.  Hatred has been brewing in him for a long time.  However, that shard is already owned.

 

[TequilaJack]

4 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

If anything, I think Moash would be a good fit for the Odium shard.  Hatred has been brewing in him for a long time.  However, that shard is already owned.

 

Not really. At this point, Moash hates himself more than anyone else. Similar to Teft but for different reasons. 

I would not be surprised if he was the one to kill Odium as a redemption suicides sacrifice. 

[TequilaJack]

Odium is known for splintering. If he collects honorblades, it'll more likely to make sure no person or order gets all (and potentially challenge him). He'll scatter it all.

 

[digitalbusker he/him]

5 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

If anything, I think Moash would be a good fit for the Odium shard.  Hatred has been brewing in him for a long time.  However, that shard is already owned.

 

Yeah, it got owned pretty hard at the end of Oathbringer.

[IronBars he/him]

I might be in the minority here but i dont think moash hates himself, i thing what we see from him is resignation not hate, also think he was just given the honourblade as a reward, most likely because a fused/regal/parshman can not use them, only humans can, 

[digitalbusker he/him]

29 minutes ago, IronBars said:

I might be in the minority here but i dont think moash hates himself, i thing what we see from him is resignation not hate, also think he was just given the honourblade as a reward, most likely because a fused/regal/parshman can not use them, only humans can, 

I'm with you on Moash's level of self hatred being much lower than it should be. Whether the honor blade can be used by non-humans or not gets a big ol shrug from me, at this point.

[IronBars he/him]

4 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

I'm with you on Moash's level of self hatred being much lower than it should be. Whether the honor blade can be used by non-humans or not gets a big ol shrug from me, at this point.

Moash is going to have one of the more interesting character arcs in future books i think, so hopefully he gets more page time, 

[LinkAJR he/him]

Spoiler

 

I’m a bit new to theorising and just recently finished OB, the last six months I have been on a reading spree of Sanderson’s Cosmere books. 

As i’ve said, i have just finished OB and I’m really interested in Moash’s future.

Am I the only one that thinks that, as Dalinar has failed at becoming Odium’s champion, the parshendi and Odium himself might be nurturing Moash as the new chosen champion? (I miself would really enjoy a final battle between Kaladin and Moash with a bit of talking too).

 

LinkAJR

 

PS: Amaram is surely not dead.

PPS: This might have already been answered, and if it’s the case I would appreciate a quote and a link. 

 

Thanks

[jefftucker0525]

On 2/15/2018 at 7:56 AM, digitalbusker said:

It could be that there was something they had to do with the dagger and the Honorblade before giving it to Moash, but we don't have any obvious clues what. It could also be that they didn't want to risk Jezrien seeing his blade, snapping into lucidity, and fighting back with it.

It could be that Jezrien still had a bond with the blade, which would explain why the bonds are shallower, anyone can bond it if they possess the blade, but only 1 person can bond it fully. So jezrien needed to die before they could have moash fully bond it and access it's full potential. 

[Carla Bridge Four]

15 hours ago, LinkAJR said:

  Hide contents

 

I’m a bit new to theorising and just recently finished OB, the last six months I have been on a reading spree of Sanderson’s Cosmere books. 

As i’ve said, i have just finished OB and I’m really interested in Moash’s future.

Am I the only one that thinks that, as Dalinar has failed at becoming Odium’s champion, the parshendi and Odium himself might be nurturing Moash as the new chosen champion? (I miself would really enjoy a final battle between Kaladin and Moash with a bit of talking too).

 

LinkAJR

 

PS: Amaram is surely not dead.

PPS: This might have already been answered, and if it’s the case I would appreciate a quote and a link. 

 

Thanks

I do think there'll be a Moash-Kaladin smash up, but I keep thinking Moash will regret and ask for Kaladin's forgiveness.

I hope Amaram stays dead!

And welcome to the Shard  

Edited February 26, 2018 by Carla Bridge Four
typo :P

[Magpro]

I think Herald bond is permanant to the Honor Blade, and for this reason, it forms a shallow bond with everyon else.

I read mentioning that Heralds let their bladed be borrowed.

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

On 2/17/2018 at 6:49 PM, RShara said:

All the surges are only a little bit different between Orders.  So five would be fine.

Szeth uses lots of stormlight with one. With 5 wouldn't you need so much stormlight it would be impossible?

[RShara she/her]

15 minutes ago, ElephantEarwax said:

Szeth uses lots of stormlight with one. With 5 wouldn't you need so much stormlight it would be impossible?

If you're trying to use all of them at once for something big, probably.  But while Szeth uses more Stormlight than a proper Radiant does, I don't know if he uses a ton more.  He describes the amount he uses a few times, and it doesn't seem to be a huge differential between what he uses and, say, a First or Second Oath Radiant.  By the time they get to 3, 4, and 5, Radiants are probably way more efficient, yeah.

[AIAndy]

I think Moash was the right one to kill Jezrien because he had become similar enough to his current state to form the connection needed to kill him. The Honorblade would have been counterproductive to that.

They needed someone who had lost the will to lead and to protect but previously had it (and if the third attribute theory is correct, then the same also for something like rage).

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

Admittedly this is a crazy theory, and I'm always wrong about stuff, but here it is:

If Jezrien's honorblade is really a splinter of Honor, what if it doesn't do exactly what Odium thinks it will? Do we have any information on whether one of the honorblades had ever been in his control - or that of the Fused - prior to this? If not, they're surely guessing as to what the blade can/will do. What if they (Odium and the Fused) think that Moash will become their version of the Assasin in White, but the very nature of the honorblade - as a splinter of Honor - veers slightly in a different direction, maybe so slight that they don't notice it at first? What if the blade somehow works on Moash's soul and awakens in him things that he has deliberately tried to kill? - honorable things like compassion and mercy and loyalty, or just a longing for those things.

Don't get me wrong - I hate Moash as much as others do. But things are always more complicated in this series than we thought they were.

[Naurock]

On 2/25/2018 at 6:18 PM, LinkAJR said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

PS: Amaram is surely not dead.

PPS: This might have already been answered, and if it’s the case I would appreciate a quote and a link. 

 

Thanks

Buddy,,,

Amaram is most definitely dead. He swallowed a gem that seemingly absorbed and replaced all of his internal organs. Yelig-Nar lore in the epigraphs says he consumes Voidbringers, which we found out humans are the Voidbringers. When Rock destroyed the amethyst grown heart both of the Shardblades appeared from mist and fell to the ground.