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[OB] Shallan mental health and Truths


Hsien99

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We know right now that Shallan has basically ignored the advice of everyone, and she has been lying to herself since the start of Oathbringer. Her personas have started taking over forming their own distinct personalities, but Shallan refuses to acknowledge that all of them make up a part of who she really is denial my name is Shallan. IMO she doesn’t love Adolin for one she doesn’t love herself she hates herself so how can she love anyone with that mentality. She is at this point still too naive and childish throughout Oathbringer in the first part she seemed to mature some, but by the end had regressed IMO. Shallan took two or three steps forward and then next took two steps back. How do you think her relationship with Adolin will fair do you think she will end up staying and eventually really fall in love with him, or do you think they will break up and she will eventually end up like Jasnah maybe post time skip end up with Kaladin? Now please correct me if am wrong but Shallan at this point has only said two truths of the needed four while I believe everyone else besides Venli and Eshonai (since they are REALLY NEW) has said three and four of their oaths. Shallan out of the original main characters seems to be lagging behind quite a bit compared to the others. What IYO are the truths Shallan have to say in order to progress and become a full knight radiant?

Edited by Greywatch
Added [OB] because it was missing.
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Kaladin is at three oaths, Dalinar is at three oaths, Lift is at three, as is Szeth. The only person we know is at four is Shallan. 

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

source

The first oath. "I am terrified," "I am a murder," "I killed my mother." 

Four. 

Edited by Calderis
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I think that by the end of Oathbringer, Shallan has begun to accept herself a lot better.  And that she does love Adolin, if only because he helps her identify her core self.  Brandon said that toward the end, he wrote her to be much more stable than in the middle.

I want the triangle to be over, so I'd prefer her to stay with Adolin.  For further speculation, please use the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin thread ;)

According to Brandon, Shallan was one Oath ahead of Kaladin at the end of Words of Radiance.  Since Kaladin was on the Third Oath at that time, that would put Shallan at four (Journey before Destination/I'm terrified/I killed my father/I killed my mother).

Also, if you could break up your post into paragraphs, and use more punctuation, it would be very helpful in reading and understanding it.  Thanks :D  *is tired and having a hard time separating thoughts out*.

Edited by RShara
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17 hours ago, RShara said:

For further speculation, please use the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin thread ;)

^^^ This. I have gone on several very long diatribes about Shallan's mental health since the prerelease of Oathbringer. :D

@RShara@Calderis I don't have WoR in front of me, but wasn't her fourth Truth "I just want my family"?

Edited by Alderant
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On 2/2/2018 at 1:05 PM, Steeldancer said:

For speculations sake, i will repeat what I've said multiple times before- I'm pretty sure her final oath will be "I am Shallan Davar.". 

I love the idea, and it definitely might be the words because of the symetry of it.

But I think the big truth she has to accept is that she is the victim, that her parents death was not her fault. She killed her mother in self-defense, she killed her father to protect her family. 

She won't face being herself because she sees herself as a murderer (and describes herself as a dirty rotten murderer in OB). She idealises her parents pre-death. She thinks murdering her mother turned her Father into a monster, so she is to blame for everything. She imagines a life she deserves, a happy Father, whole brothers and a mother teaching her to draw. But that is an illusion, knowing what we know of what her parents did.

Her mother was about to kill her. Her Father let his pain turn him into a monster. They are responsible for their own actions, she is the victim. 

And until she can accept that, she won't be able to say "I am Shallan Devar".

 

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14 hours ago, Song said:

I love the idea, and it definitely might be the words because of the symetry of it.

But I think the big truth she has to accept is that she is the victim, that her parents death was not her fault. She killed her mother in self-defense, she killed her father to protect her family. 

She won't face being herself because she sees herself as a murderer (and describes herself as a dirty rotten murderer in OB). She idealises her parents pre-death. She thinks murdering her mother turned her Father into a monster, so she is to blame for everything. She imagines a life she deserves, a happy Father, whole brothers and a mother teaching her to draw. But that is an illusion, knowing what we know of what her parents did.

Her mother was about to kill her. Her Father let his pain turn him into a monster. They are responsible for their own actions, she is the victim. 

And until she can accept that, she won't be able to say "I am Shallan Devar".

I think that accepting the full truth about her mother's murder should simply be a part of her fourth ideal - including that she's not to be blamed. This fourth truth, she has spoken it, but she never came to terms with it. So I think that getting  over her guilt should be an integral part of completing her progress on that stage, not a separate Ideal. The last one should be more general than that too. 

Edited by Ailvara
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  • 2 weeks later...

I am not finished with oathbringer yet, but... to me the whole "mental health" angle overstates the problem a bit.  I realize that she is a main character, but she's still a teenager, ffs.  How much of that time between... 17 and ... i dunno 45? ok , say 22 is spent just putting on different personas, different versions of oneself and trying to fit into what the world demands?  The trauma she experienced is very real and a fair to discuss as a mental health issue, imo, but the "fracturing" ... I'm not convinced that deserves a mental health label.

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I'm kind of hoping Brandon just rips off the ending of Granny Weatherwax in Terry Pratchett's Witches Abroad (spoilers obviously)

Spoiler

Granny Weatherwax looked out at the multi-layered, silvery world. 
“Where am I?” 
INSIDE THE MIRROR. 
“Am I dead?” 
THE ANSWER TO THAT, said Death, IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN NO AND YES. 
Esme turned, and a billion figures turned with her. 
“When can I get out?” 
WHEN YOU FIND THE ONE THAT’S REAL. 
“Is this a trick question?” 
NO. 
Granny looked down at herself. 
“This one,” she said.

 

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On 2/12/2018 at 10:02 PM, LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL said:

I am not finished with oathbringer yet, but... to me the whole "mental health" angle overstates the problem a bit.  I realize that she is a main character, but she's still a teenager, ffs.  How much of that time between... 17 and ... i dunno 45? ok , say 22 is spent just putting on different personas, different versions of oneself and trying to fit into what the world demands?  The trauma she experienced is very real and a fair to discuss as a mental health issue, imo, but the "fracturing" ... I'm not convinced that deserves a mental health label.

Well, if you take into account the time difference between Earth and Roshar, she's probably an adult by now, actually. I believe there's a WoB stating that people on Roshar are biologically a little older than their same-age earth counterparts.

That said...Shallan's problems in OB absolutely deserve a mental health label. This problems here are less about puberty and trying to fit in, as much as they are about identity and Shallan actively trying to repress certain aspects of herself. You'll understand the further into the book you go--but my comment may be outdated, depending on when you finish(ed) OB.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I feel that Shallan and Adolin have a long way to go in their marriage, but I think they’ll stay married, because I think they do love each other and because I don’t think Sanderson will make two major characters get divorced.  Being Mormon it’s not something he believes in unless it’s a really awful marriage with abuse going on or someone isn’t faithful to their spouse.  And knowing Shallan and Adolin I don’t think they will have that type of marriage.  They may have huge problems, but I can’t see them abusing the other one.  Now I know Sanderson is willing to write about characters that don’t follow his beliefs, which is good, bcause the world is filled with all kinds of people.  But by reading his books you can absolutely see that Sanderson cares about marriage, even with characters like Sabariel (sp) and his lady, who are great and I love them.  Anyway, I don’t see a divorce happening, but you are welcome to disagree with me.

Potentally one of them could remarry if the other were to die.  Kind of like Dalinar and Navani.

Now I have a lot to say about Shallan’s mental health.  It drives me bonkers.  It needs to get better in book 4.  I know mental health problems take time to recover from, but for the sake of the readers it needs to happen soon.  I liked Shallan a lot in book 1 and liked her more in book 2, but I don’t like her as much as more after OB.  Right now, I wouldn’t care too much if she were to die.  I want to care.  I want to like her again like I used to.  She’s a good character.

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Personally I think Shallan's issues in OB make sense because her previous coping mechanisms (which where themselves not very healthy but) have been shredded to bits. It's not really a surprise she was having some difficulties.

She seems to be a bit more stable as of the end of OB so hopefully she will continue to improve.

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