The ethics of Shardblades (full book spoilers)

[Vortaan]

So now we know what Shardblades (and maybe Plate too), actually are. You can take this one of two ways, as the Blade is the physical representation of the Oaths a Radiant takes, or the Blade is the actual body of a spren.... which raises an interesting debate for our heroes.

 

They know the Blades that they've traditionally used are effectively corpses, whether of promises or spren it doesn't really matter. The symbolism behind those Blades is terrible, and using them is likely to anger any spren that cross over from Shadesmar. So... do the new KR allow Shardbearers to join their fight? Or do they insist that these people give up very powerful weapons in the name of Honor? 

[lordofsoup]

In an ideal world, I would look for the new KR to bond the dead shardblades, but never use them.  Keep them hidden away as a reminder of what will happen if they forsake their Oaths.  However that does not seem like it is going to happen, so I would look for them to start trying to phase them out if possible.

[marianmi]

My theory was that the Plates are the spren

damnation, hard way to be proven wrong like that

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Well seeing as Kaladin killed Sylphrena and was able to revive her, I don't know why they can't revive the other dead Nahel spren. It sort of seemed like that is what Adolin is going to do.

[Seloun]

I'm not really sure any of the KR will care that much about it. Syl is certainly not so anti-shardblade that she doesn't want Kaladin protecting them when it's appropriate, let alone actively making them ditch their shards, and she'd probably be the one who'd be most likely to cause a fuss. However, we do know that non-surgebinders are capable of doing some level of infusion through some relationship with the surgebinders (though this might be specific to Windrunners, given they're explicitly mentioned with squires), and I suspect that'll prove to be incompatible with the dead shardblades.

 

Either way I don't see the KR imposing a ban on shardblades or anything like that (too authoritarian in my opinion).

[Sorin]

I can't find it off hand, but doesn't Pattern tell Shallan something along the lines of how a spren might only be able to be revived if the person it had been bonded too was around? 

edit: thanks for finding it Azul. I was using the search on my kindle and still came up empty.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Sorin

[Azul]

Pattern does mention to Shallan that "Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . .".   This is most likely foreshadowing for events later in the book but I do have some hopes that perhaps new people can revive the 'dead' spren.  If they can Its likely going to be very difficult.  Its most likely that the bonded spren creates both Blade and Plate which would mean you may need both the original blade and plate of the dead spren to bring it back.

 

 

Edit:  its in chatper 75 Sorin.

 

“All dead,” Pattern said. “To us, this means they are mindless—as a force cannot truly be destroyed. These old ones are patterns in nature now, like Cryptics unborn. We have tried to restore them. It does not work. Mmmm. Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . .”

Edited March 6, 2014 by Azul

[Colby Jack]

Pattern does mention to Shallan that "Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . .".   This is most likely foreshadowing for events later in the book but I do have some hopes that perhaps new people can revive the 'dead' spren.  If they can Its likely going to be very difficult.  Its most likely that the bonded spren creates both Blade and Plate which would mean you may need both the original blade and plate of the dead spren to bring it back.

 

 

Edit:  its in chatper 75 Sorin.

Adolin is very attached to his sword. He talks to it and actually seems to respect it, which may be a sign of things to come. If he ever becomes a Knight Radiant, I think his spren will come from his current shard.

[marianmi]

Pattern does mention to Shallan that "Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . .".   This is most likely foreshadowing for events later in the book but I do have some hopes that perhaps new people can revive the 'dead' spren.  If they can Its likely going to be very difficult.  Its most likely that the bonded spren creates both Blade and Plate which would mean you may need both the original blade and plate of the dead spren to bring it back.

 

 

Edit:  its in chatper 75 Sorin.

 

This was foreshadowing for Kaladin getting back Syl.

 

 

Adolin is very attached to his sword. He talks to it and actually seems to respect it, which may be a sign of things to come. If he ever becomes a Knight Radiant, I think his spren will come from his current shard.

 

Mmmmhhhh

Edited March 6, 2014 by marianmi

[Vortaan]

I wonder though. Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather. I doubt he'll be very accepting of Shardblades, which might influence Dalinar's take on them. Also, Plate might still be part of the Nahel bond, we're only three Oaths in, remember.

[harry31j97]

@Vortaan, requirement of further oaths differs from order to order. Shallan was able to summon Blade after just 1st oath, & no other foreshadowing by Brandon, so can't really say for sure how Shardplates did come to be about.

[Luke.spence]

Well seeing as Kaladin killed Sylphrena and was able to revive her, I don't know why they can't revive the other dead Nahel spren. It sort of seemed like that is what Adolin is going to do.

 

I don't think Syl was actually killed. He wasn't a full KR yet I don't think, so she still retained her mind, even though he broke the early oaths. At this point though, he'd kill her if he broke them again.

 

Also, are we assuming that a KR killed in the line of duty releases their spren instead of killing it? If so, then is that spren then available to bond with another person? Stormfather is kinda an example, but I'm assuming Honor didn't play by the same rules exactly.

[Seerow]

I don't think Syl was actually killed. He wasn't a full KR yet I don't think, so she still retained her mind, even though he broke the early oaths. At this point though, he'd kill her if he broke them again.

 

Also, are we assuming that a KR killed in the line of duty releases their spren instead of killing it? If so, then is that spren then available to bond with another person? Stormfather is kinda an example, but I'm assuming Honor didn't play by the same rules exactly.

 

Yeah. Syl mentions in WoK that in the past she had bonded with others. Assuming breaking the bond intentionally kills her, the only other option I can think of to let that be possible is the Radiant dying while upholding their oaths.

[marianmi]

Syl mentions in WoK that in the past she had bonded with others.

 

Erm, no she doesn't. All spren that were bounded, except highspren, died at the Recreance.

Most of the spren population was bonded as well. Recreance was like a Spren Desolation. I'm assuming ~2200 total spren population at recreance, ~2000 were bonded. Currently, there are way more spren than that, with Honor's splintering and all.

[xbauks]

I don't think Syl was actually killed. He wasn't a full KR yet I don't think, so she still retained her mind, even though he broke the early oaths. At this point though, he'd kill her if he broke them again.

Also, are we assuming that a KR killed in the line of duty releases their spren instead of killing it? If so, then is that spren then available to bond with another person? Stormfather is kinda an example, but I'm assuming Honor didn't play by the same rules exactly.

It's mentioned multiple times that it's not possible to "kill" spren in the same sense as people. It's possible that kaladin breaking his oath "killed" syl then brought her back by realising his mistake.

Also, the Stormfather isn't Honour's spren in the same sense as syl is kaladin's spren. The Stormfather is the idea of Honour come to life.

[junior]

Trying to get people to stop using Shardblades - at least at the moment - would probably work something like this.

 

Dalinar - I need you to stop using your shardblades.  They're really dead spren.

 

Highprinces - No.

 

 

A rule like that would be extremely unpopular due to the loss of power that it represented for those giving up their blades.  And Dalinar realistically has no way of enforcing it.

[Seerow]

Erm, no she doesn't. All spren that were bounded, except highspren, died at the Recreance.

Most of the spren population was bonded as well. Recreance was like a Spren Desolation. I'm assuming ~2200 total spren population at recreance, ~2000 were bonded. Currently, there are way more spren than that, with Honor's splintering and all.

 

I didn't say that Syl was bonded during the Recreance itself. Just that she had bonded others. In WoK she says something like "I helped men kill in the past..." sounds a lot like having had previous bondings to me.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

I don't think Syl was actually killed. He wasn't a full KR yet I don't think, so she still retained her mind, even though he broke the early oaths. At this point though, he'd kill her if he broke them again.

 

Also, are we assuming that a KR killed in the line of duty releases their spren instead of killing it? If so, then is that spren then available to bond with another person? Stormfather is kinda an example, but I'm assuming Honor didn't play by the same rules exactly.

She said she was as dead as his oaths so I assume if others were to take up the old oaths then the dead spren could be brought back. Especially if the stormfather helps them.

[Kurkistan]

She said she was as dead as his oaths so I assume if others were to take up the old oaths then the dead spren could be brought back. Especially if the stormfather helps them.

 

I doubt that the other spren are retrievable. Note this line from Pattern:

 

“All dead,” Pattern said. “To us, this means they are mindless—as a force cannot truly be destroyed. These old ones are patterns in nature now, like Cryptics unborn. We have tried to restore them. It does not work. Mmmm. Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . .”

[Luke.spence]

It's mentioned multiple times that it's not possible to "kill" spren in the same sense as people. It's possible that kaladin breaking his oath "killed" syl then brought her back by realising his mistake.

Also, the Stormfather isn't Honour's spren in the same sense as syl is kaladin's spren. The Stormfather is the idea of Honour come to life.

 

I wasn't talking about "kill" as in dead forever, I meant it in the loss of cognitive ability that Pattern seems to suggest. Syl was still "alive", I don't think Kaladin actually killed her to begin with in the way that the recreance killed the other spren.

[Vortaan]

Whether the highprinces are in favor or not, the fact is that the spren are at the very least uncomfortable around Shardblades. People using them are a constant reminder of the failure of humans to the KR. I can't help but feel that if everyone gave up their Blades, that might be a big enough show of trust to the spren that more would make the crossover from Shadesmar.

[TheOneKEA]

I was shocked when Syl and Pattern revealed themselves as Shardblades and even more shocked when Syl transformed the way she did.

There are so many parallels between the brain-dead spren that from most Blades and the brain-dead Seons of people affected by the Reod on Sel. Someone REALLY needs to ask Brandon if the injury to the cognitive aspect of both is the same.

[marianmi]

I think there might be multiple definitions of killing a spren.

 

Syl was probably "dead" the same way as Pattern was "dead". For a long time after getting Pattern, Shallan lied to herself (similar to Kaladin breaking his oath) => "dead" spren.

 

But the knights at the Recreance I think did something way more ... permanent.

[Luke.spence]

I think there might be multiple definitions of killing a spren.

 

Syl was probably "dead" the same way as Pattern was "dead". For a long time after getting Pattern, Shallan lied to herself (similar to Kaladin breaking his oath) => "dead" spren.

 

But the knights at the Recreance I think did something way more ... permanent.

 

Good point. I agree with this.

[dyring]

Erm, no she doesn't. All spren that were bounded, except highspren, died at the Recreance.

Most of the spren population was bonded as well. Recreance was like a Spren Desolation. I'm assuming ~2200 total spren population at recreance, ~2000 were bonded. Currently, there are way more spren than that, with Honor's splintering and all

 

You dont know that all died. The reason htere have been to few shardblades might well be the sprens of the other orders didnt die. They might not ahve been as hurt by oathbreaking....

 

Also, there are likey to be honorspren that have bonded before. There have been millions of knights radiants over the years, the order was around for thousands of years. Most of those sprens bonded there was likely released when the radiant died.