Surgebinding and the Knights Radiant: New Information (Spoilers WoR)

[marianmi]

All current Radiants are the same gender as the order's herald and even look like them. Jezrien/Kaladin - male, strong features; Shallash/Shallan - female, young; Jashnah/Battar - female, long hair in a bun; Lift/Vedeledev - female, looks like somebody who's hungry

 

* Dalinar: I'm pretty sure Bondsmiths are #10 / Ishi. Taln said that Ishar created the orders, like Dalinar tries to do now; adhesion and soft axial interconnection are 2 surges related to creating bonds/connections, Ishar is the old guy and Dalinar is the old guy.

 

1) Renarin: I imagine him looking like Kalak. Resolute/Builder with Cohesion and Transportation. Kelek looks to me also like he's the herald with Nalan that Jasnah meets in the prologue, and he's pretty subdued, almost taking orders from Nalan - like Renarin is taking orders from everyone. This leaves willshapers #5 - illumination and progression. Progression / Shaping ... Willshapers are described as capricious, unreliable, frustrating - which fits better with someone that can create illusions (illumination) than someone that can disappear (transportation). Truthwatchers are described as ultra-secretive, never speaking or writing of what they do - not really fitting learned/giving attributes of Palah.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND:

 

2) Renarin: Palah being on the chapter icon is pretty clear indication that Truthwatchers are #5 (he would be the first radiant we see of different gender than their herald). He's good with patterns, due to illumination (waveforms). He healed hos eyes with Regrowth. He is best at seeing the future because #5 is very much Cultivation (green color), just as #10 is very much Honor (Stormfather). He is Learned, but his "Giving" attribute looks more like "Giving in" This leaves willshapers as #8 - resolute, builder - build (shape) resolute wills - capricious, unreliable they are strong willed and do as they wish - anyone we know like that?

 

3) I really saw Renarin as Brave/Obedient but yeah, there is not chance of that...

Edited March 6, 2014 by marianmi

[Kurkistan he/him]

I personally think Lopen is awesome.

 

Oh, I agree. I just also don't believe a word out of his mouth.

[Aminar]

All current Radiants are the same gender as the order's herald and even look like them. Jezrien/Kaladin - male, strong features; Shallash/Shallan - female, young; Jashnah/Battar - female, long hair in a bun; Lift/Vedeledev - female, looks like somebody who's hungry

 

* Dalinar: I'm pretty sure Bondsmiths are #10 / Ishi. Taln said that Ishar created the orders, like Dalinar tries to do now; adhesion and soft axial interconnection are 2 surges related to creating bonds/connections, Ishar is the old guy and Dalinar is the old guy.

 

1) Renarin: I imagine him looking like Kalak. Resolute/Builder with Cohesion and Transportation. Kelek looks to me also like he's the herald with Nalan that Jasnah meets in the prologue, and he's pretty subdued, almost taking orders from Nalan - like Renarin is taking orders from everyone. This leaves willshapers #5 - illumination and progression. Progression / Shaping ... Willshapers are described as capricious, unreliable, frustrating - which fits better with someone that can create illusions (illumination) than someone that can disappear (transportation). Truthwatchers are described as ultra-secretive, never speaking or writing of what they do - not really fitting learned/giving attributes of Palah.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND:

 

2) Renarin: Palah being on the chapter icon is pretty clear indication that Truthwatchers are #5 (he would be the first radiant we see of different gender than their herald). He's good with patterns, due to illumination (waveforms). He healed hos eyes with Regrowth. He is best at seeing the future because #5 is very much Cultivation (green color), just as #10 is very much Honor (Stormfather). He is Learned, but his "Giving" attribute looks more like "Giving in" This leaves willshapers as #8 - resolute, builder - build (shape) resolute wills - capricious, unreliable they are strong willed and do as they wish - anyone we know like that?

 

3) I really saw Renarin as Brave/Obedient but yeah, there is not chance of that...

Pretty sure Ym is the same order as Renarin as well. And he's also a dude.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Yeah, actually: Ym has to have a female Herald no matter what. Both the Regrowth Progression Orders are headed by female Heralds (Palah and Vev).

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Strife]

All current Radiants are the same gender as the order's herald and even look like them. Jezrien/Kaladin - male, strong features; Shallash/Shallan - female, young; Jashnah/Battar - female, long hair in a bun; Lift/Vedeledev - female, looks like somebody who's hungry

 

ON THE OTHER HAND:

 

2) Renarin: Palah being on the chapter icon is pretty clear indication that Truthwatchers are #5 (he would be the first radiant we see of different gender than their herald). 

 

Don't forget Ym, he shares at least one Surge with Renarin, and I pretty sure the other order with Regrowth has a female Herald too.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd 

Edited March 6, 2014 by Strife

[Azul he/him]

Another indication that Truthcallers are #5 is one of Shallans drawings which could indicated Illumination giving the ability to see events happening elsewhere , past, present or future.

 

She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. Sheswore one of them was Yalb.

A hopeful fancy. She wished so much for them to be alive. She would probably never know

[Kurkistan he/him]

And right after that she drew Shallash doing her image-destroying thing: that clearly isn't a fancy Shallan would come up with on here own, as Shallan herself noted. I'd hazard that it has something to do with tapping into intuition/knowledge from Shadesmar.

[Azul he/him]

And right after that she drew Shallash doing her image-destroying thing: that clearly isn't a fancy Shallan would come up with on here own, as Shallan herself noted. I'd hazard that it has something to do with tapping into intuition/knowledge from Shadesmar.

 

Yep,  though at the time of reading i was still distraught over Jasnah and was trying to come up with crazy theories.  Like maybe Jasnah had a statue of her sculpted and then soulcast it to flesh...  I know its nuts but I was not thinking clearly ;p

[Djerf he/him]

On the healing thing.

I believe that there are two major factors that the wielder influences.

First is the view of self, if you see yourself as broken/damaged you can heal.

Kaladin clearly sees his slave brands as healed and part of himself, while the Lopen does not consider his armless state as healed.

 

The second factor is how you view the mechanics of supernatural healing, if you think/know/feel that something is impossible to heal the healing power will never get directed to that injury and thus it won't heal.

Szeth tells us as he's been told, that stormlight can't  heal shardblade wounds and yet we see Kaladin doing just that. Syl in the end told Kaladin that the difference between the Honorblade powers and the Nahelbond powers are quantitative rather the qualitative, "his car runs as fast as your does but his has worse gas millage".

 

The Lopen, with the rest of bridge four, see Kaladin as but one small step below the Almighty and they have seen him do things that should be impossible more times than they can count, and so when the Lopen finally gets the power to infuse he firmly know that dismemberment is no problem for stormlight to fix.

 

We do however see that the healing of a shardblade wound is not something that occurs naturally and automatic.

But his right forearm and hand, faintly lit by the Stormlight rising from the rest of him, were still a dull grey. Like a dead candle in a row, this part of him did not glow. He couldn’t feel it; he couldn’t even move the fingers. They dropped, limp, as he cradled the hand.

When Kaladin makes an conscious effort, the stormlight heals him.

Perhaps . . . Kaladin felt the Light working, the tempest within straining and pushing. He gritted his teeth and heaved somehow.

 

I think we can take this fact in two basic ways, either Kaladin by applying his will forced the stormlight to take a non-existing route kinda like how the parshendi just leaps the chasms instead of using bridges.

Or he overwrote the cognitive template of how stormlight healing works that have been set in to place by countless persons that "knew" that stormlight wouldn't heal that kind of damage,  kinda like that road sign that says that you're not allowed to pass unless your destination is within the are but you pass anyway cuz it earns you like 5 minutes every morning on your way to work.

I believe in the second alternative, or perhaps a mix of the two.

 

In the end I don't think that you can define the different magic healing effects in terms of what they can do, after all as you approach shardic proportions of power nothing is impossible. Rather we should define it in terms of efficiency (speed of healing, ease of healing, affinity for different kinds of wounds (spiritual, cognitive, spiritual, physical, old and new), levels of relative and absolute investiture  needed and investiture spent during the healing).

Looking at the intents of the shards that are heavily invested in Roshar and Scadrial  I'd say that stormlight are superior  when healing spiritual and old wounds perhaps cognitive wounds seeing as cultivation seems to have a strong connection to the cognitive, and probably  on par with Feruchemical gold when healing new and physical wounds.

 

 

 

 

[cris34b he/him]

1. I don't get why everyone seems to think Renarin used Regrowth to fix his eyes. It clearly says the Stormlight fixed it.

2. I mean, we have seen it heal a Shard-cut limb, and regrow a limb on its own. I think Regrowth is simply the transferring of one's own Stormlight healing powers onto another person temporarily.

3. Like how Shallan infuses the gems with her stormlight, people with Regrowth can transfer healing.

4. All Surgebinders effectively have a level of self-healing unprecedented save for Gold Compounding.
5. Those with Regrowth are just capable of sharing the love.

Edited March 7, 2014 by cris34b

[Fric]

A little off topic but related--has anyone noticed the gender relations of the spren to their bondmates?  Each human seems to bond a spren of the opposite gender (except for Dalinar who might have bonded the shard of Honor).  I wonder if this is a coincidence or has some deeper implication.  We know that people of either gender can join most orders, so are there male and female windspren?  Hmmm...

 

This is not quite true as Glys, Renarin's spren is male.

 

"I thought it was me," Renarin whispered. "My mind. But Glys, he says..." Renarin blinked. "Truthwatcher."

 

Unless of course that theory of Renarin secretly being female is true.... (Please no)

Edited March 8, 2014 by Fric

[Edgedancer he/him]

 Given that Shallan can use Pattern as a illusion projector, could Kaladin use Syl for the reverse Lashing?

[RIT]

Given that Shallan can use Pattern as a illusion projector, could Kaladin use Syl for the reverse Lashing?

 

Possibly. However odds are he'd rather have his Shardspear in most situations where he would use the reverse lashing. And the constant contact would me he'd have to be physically touching syl throughout to make it work I think.

[TomR]

1. I don't get why everyone seems to think Renarin used Regrowth to fix his eyes. It clearly says the Stormlight fixed it.

2. I mean, we have seen it heal a Shard-cut limb, and regrow a limb on its own. I think Regrowth is simply the transferring of one's own Stormlight healing powers onto another person temporarily.

3. Like how Shallan infuses the gems with her stormlight, people with Regrowth can transfer healing.

4. All Surgebinders effectively have a level of self-healing unprecedented save for Gold Compounding.

5. Those with Regrowth are just capable of sharing the love.

 

1. Dalinar said Stormlight, not Renarin and not a 3rd person omniscient narrator. Renarin didn't elaborate, and Regrowth would technically be a use of Stormlight.

2. Healing eyesight seems a little different from regrowing a limb. Nearsightedness is neither an illness nor physical damage, it's about the natural shape of the eye. It's more like height than a severed toe; it's hard to think of it in terms of healing.

3. For another example, take Ym. Despite using Stormlight for a while, he steal needs spectacles.

5. Regrowth appears to be an extension of Growth. Growth allowed Lift to grow plants from seeds, which again doesn't seem like Healing so much as a level of maturation. 

 

Now, Ym using spectacles may just be an example of Spiritual identity. Kaladin's scars don't heal, after all. Plus, Shai's forgeries show some odd Spiritual things going on with eyesight in the cosmere. So it may indeed just be Stormlight. Or it may be that Renarin used Growth to manipulate cells and change the shape of his eye beyond normal Stormlight healing. I admit, when I first saw Renarin without spectacles, and having seen the clue that Renarin sees a spren that no one else sees, my initial thought was that Stormlight works like a mixture of pewter, tin, and gold compounding, that he got the tin-like effects while he was infusing Stormlight but not that his eyesight had changed in general. It wasn't until the end that I realized differently, so I can easily be wrong.

Edited March 8, 2014 by TomR

[Argent he/him]

And right after that she drew Shallash doing her image-destroying thing: that clearly isn't a fancy Shallan would come up with on here own, as Shallan herself noted. I'd hazard that it has something to do with tapping into intuition/knowledge from Shadesmar.

 

Woah, when did that happen? Her vision about a woman standing over a body as stiff as stone? I always figured that was actually Jasnah who, for one reason or another, Soulcast somebody into stone.

 

Also, will somebody finally tell me why everyone thinks Lopen is a Windrunner squire? We've seen no spren, no attributes, no powers - nothing to link him to any order.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Also, will somebody finally tell me why everyone thinks Lopen is a Windrunner squire? We've seen no spren, no attributes, no powers - nothing to link him to any order.

The theory is actually that the members of bridge 4 are Windrunner squires, since they glowed as well as the whole "the order of the Knight Radiant are made up of more than just the Knights themselfs" stuff, and Lopen happens to be one of them.

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Argent

 

I think the vision is fairly clearly referencing Shallash.

 

[shallan] turned the page and drew what came to her. A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden . . . maybe even stone?

 

So Shallash getting ready to face-smash another one of her depictions is the rather likely interpretation, I think.

 

As to Lopen, I suppose we're just assuming that squires are of the same type as their associated Radiant. Kaladin is Lopen's leader, so seems intuitively odd that Lopen would somehow get another Order's powers. The underlying assumption is that all of Bridge Four's "glowiness" is ultimately because of Syl, not some additional spren.

 

EDIT: NINJAAAAAA! 

Edited March 8, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Argent he/him]

Fair enough, Shallash seems likely, but I am not giving up the Jasnah idea, considering that her vision comes right after she sees Yalb. 

[Senor Feesh]

Late to this party...

I'd put Bondsmiths as order 10. Adhesion and Tension just scream Bondsmith to me. As for those looking for Dalinar's defining traits - Pious and Guiding seem pretty good to me.

He upholds the Codes, setting an example to the other Alethi.

He reminds them all of the Vengeance Pact.

He literally leads them to Urithiru.

He still believes in God, despite knowing the Almighty is dead (he simply changes his beliefs to encompass a different idea of God).

I'm surprised by Renarin though - I too had him pegged for Brave/Obedient (seeing as how he threw himself HEADFIRST off a building with no hesitation when Zahel told him to). Alas, if we're to obey a strict reading of the Ars Arcanum and accepted interpretation, that would make him a Dustbringer (which he isn't). So he comes in as order 5 (Learned/Giving).

I'm willing to accept that the Orders may not correlate to the chart directly, but that seems unlikely given how well the chart matches Heralds to symbols otherwise.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Senor Feesh

[Kurkistan he/him]

We actually have the chart filled out completely now, Senor. You're right about the assignments.

 

Source:

Edited March 20, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Senor Feesh]

Thanks for that, hadn't seen that thread. Upvoted the OP who got that info.

See, this is what happens when I go away for... jeez, how long WAS it? About 8 months? That's a LOT of signing info I'm not up to date on :/ I foresee a lot of time on Theoryland in my future...

[Palindromemordnilap]

On 3/4/2014 at 10:18 AM, Tortellini said:

 

I strongly suspect that the remaining order is the Stonewards, and they turned into the Stone Shamans. First, they actually "ward" stones - they are holy to them, to the point of warding them even from being stepped on. This could be based on an ancient rule to be careful when stepping on stone, because a Thunderclast might appear beneath you. The strongest link however is that Taln is the Herald attached to the Stonewards, and he is the only Herald not to break his oath. We don't know exactly what caused the Recreance, but I always felt that there must be a causal link between the Recreance and the Heralds walking away from the Oathpact - the Heralds thus indirectly caused the Recreance. Then Taln's order may not have had the same reason to walk away when the other 9 did during the Recreance, since he was still doing his job getting tortured.

How do you explain why the skybreakers still seem to exist as well, then? Heleran apparently "sought them out" and Szeth gets recruited by someone claiming to be their herald. Besides, there's no greater "expense" than having all the possible future members from each of the other nine orders hunted and systematically slaughtered. 

Also I think someone else on this thread mentioned that the stonewards are one of the orders in the feverstone keep vision sequence. I'd have to re-read to confirm, though.

[Palindromemordnilap]

On 3/5/2014 at 10:22 PM, Kurkistan said:

And right after that she drew Shallash doing her image-destroying thing: that clearly isn't a fancy Shallan would come up with on here own, as Shallan herself noted. I'd hazard that it has something to do with tapping into intuition/knowledge from Shadesmar.

It could also just be metaphorical. A chisel is a shaping tool for stone, and the drawing comes right when Shallan is learning to con, which she associates heavily with her own identity, specifically in "choosing" who she needs/wants to be. Neither of the drawings has to be far-seeing. 

Also Shallash used a hammer in the interlude, though I wouldn't preclude chisels just from that. 

Also did anyone else notice that several times during the first two novels when characters are looking at depictions of the heralds one of them is missing/destroyed? I seem to recall one in Gavilar's castle I thought referenced Jasnah moving a statue to attempt to protect from her spren, but then the painting in the Prime's rooms in the Lift interlude made me think otherwise. Is there any more evidence that Shallash might be destroying specifically art depicting one or more of the heralds?

[Kurkistan he/him]

The topic's a bit dead.