[OB] The Diagram is Fake

[Draigon]

On 12/18/2017 at 6:28 PM, teknopathetic said:

Another curiousity: Odium knew nothing of the diagram - nada, squat, diddly. How on earth would Odium know so much else, but not have seen that? Is Odium blind to certain forms of fortune telling? Renaein is unique because he sees the future, and Kaladin saved Dalinar after seeing the future. It would be cunning to trick Roshar into thinking fortune telling was evil so that no human ever used that against him. 

Odium's blind to a lot of things. So much so that I think he only really knows what his invested followers know. He thought Shallan was an Elsecaller. He's, to the best of our knowledge, unaware of Venli's visit to Dalinar's vision and subsequent radiance. I wonder what other blind spots can be found in what we've been given so far.

[Storms!]

5 minutes ago, Draigon said:

Odium's blind to a lot of things. So much so that I think he only really knows what his invested followers know. He thought Shallan was an Elsecaller. He's, to the best of our knowledge, unaware of Venli's visit to Dalinar's vision and subsequent radiance. I wonder what other blind spots can be found in what we've been given so far.

If you remember from Mistborn:

Spoiler

Ruin could only speak to minds, but could not hear, while Preservation could listen but not speak.

I'm assuming there will be some sort of similar "give and take" dynamic hear. We just don't know how it works yet

[Melovespie]

I am of the opinion that the diagram is a distraction for Odium and the true way Taravangian can save everyone is when he is on a dumb day and is extremely empathetic. I think the real gift from Cultivation was his empathy, not his genius. Does anyone else feel this way? 

 

Also, as a fun fact, in the Graphic Audio renditions of the SA my uncle voices Taravangian. He also voiced Hrathen in their Elantris, so I'm hoping by some coincidental twist of fate he ends up being good at the end of this one too. 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Melovespie
Fixed an autocorrect

[Storms!]

Quote

He also voiced Hrathen in their Elantris, so I'm hoping by some coincidental twist of fate he ends up being good at the end of this one too. 

I'm sure he will, even if it isn't on purpose.

[Dlyol]

4 hours ago, Melovespie said:

He also voiced Hrathen in their Elantris, so I'm hoping by some coincidental twist of fate he ends up being good at the end of this one too. 

The comparison with Hrathen is interesting in that Hrathen has always struck me as quite similar to Dalinar. They're both middle aged men undergoing crises of faith and whose arcs revolve around coming to terms with the terrible things they've done in their lives. (They are also my two favourite Sanderson characters by quite a distance). Given that in many ways Taravangian is the anti-Dalinar I wouldn't be at all surprised if Taravangian's long term arc ends being quite similar to Hrathen's. 

[Alzabar]

I thought that it was strongly implied that for the most part the Nightwatcher is free to curse and boon people as she pleases, and Cultivation only intercedes the one time with Dalinar. So either Cultivation lied to Dalinar, or this was her only attempt at thwarting Odium. With the former perspective, I find it curious if every person who has visited the Nightwatcher has also been blessed in some way to help fight against Odium, even the guy that sees the world upside down. 

[Draigon]

25 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

I thought that it was strongly implied that for the most part the Nightwatcher is free to curse and boon people as she pleases, and Cultivation only intercedes the one time with Dalinar. So either Cultivation lied to Dalinar, or this was her only attempt at thwarting Odium. With the former perspective, I find it curious if every person who has visited the Nightwatcher has also been blessed in some way to help fight against Odium, even the guy that sees the world upside down. 

Dalinar's visit took place shortly after Gavilar's assassination, and Cultivation tells him he's the first she's personally appeared to in a very long time. Lift's visit was only 3 or so years ago and takes place after Dalinar's visit. Taravangian's visit also takes place after Gavilar's assassination, and we have good reason to believe after Dalinar's visit as well. Dalinar being the first human to see Cultivation in a long time still leaves room for these two, at least, to also have met Cultivation personally as the Desolation looms near.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Draigon

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, Alzabar said:

I thought that it was strongly implied that for the most part the Nightwatcher is free to curse and boon people as she pleases, and Cultivation only intercedes the one time with Dalinar. So either Cultivation lied to Dalinar, or this was her only attempt at thwarting Odium. With the former perspective, I find it curious if every person who has visited the Nightwatcher has also been blessed in some way to help fight against Odium, even the guy that sees the world upside down. 

No, Dalinar was the first. By the timeline, Taravangian and Lift both most likely went after Dalinar, and their boons and curses are both far more complicated than the stories we've seen of numb hands and inverted vision. 

The Nightwatcher was incapable of understanding forgiveness. I highly doubt she could wrap her mind around "capacity". 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Calderis

[Chinsukolo]

On 12/15/2017 at 11:42 AM, Khyrindor said:

I think you’re right about the Diagram being a misdirection, but I think it’s fooled Taravangian too.

The diagram comes totally from Cultivation, and she’s going to use it to take down Odium, all while mr T thinks he’s doing everything for Odium.

This is my thought as well (that this is Cultivation setting the stage to remove Odium.  I suspect another part on that stage is Lift's different than normal changes, Stormlight usage, and apparent ability to even F' with Odium's vision interventions to his own surprise/dismay/annoyance.

[Steeldancer]

Obviously, the Diagram is fake news. 

[teknopathetic]

11 hours ago, Draigon said:

Dalinar's visit took place shortly after Gavilar's assassination, and Cultivation tells him he's the first she's personally appeared to in a very long time. Lift's visit was only 3 or so years ago and takes place after Dalinar's visit. 

This made me think that Lift is hundreds of years old. 

[.S.A.M.K.M]

The diagram is as fake as the Terris prophercy from the final empire. Cultivation is giving odium enough rope to hang himself.

[Nepene]

It's another of Cultivation's plays, just like Dalinar. She returned his memories just in time so that Dalinar could resist Odium and crush his army, turning Odium's sword against him. She gave Lift incredible powers of stealth and deception to fool Odium. She made a diagram for Tara so that she could sway Odium from the inside.

Never gamble against a fortune teller's cards. Odium is making a big mistake. He should be seeking to take Cultivation's cards off the deck, not overpower them and sway them to his side.

[Landis963]

1 hour ago, Nepene said:

It's another of Cultivation's plays, just like Dalinar. She returned his memories just in time so that Dalinar could resist Odium and crush his army, turning Odium's sword against him. She gave Lift incredible powers of stealth and deception to fool Odium. She made a diagram for Tara so that she could sway Odium from the inside.

Never gamble against a fortune teller's cards. Odium is making a big mistake. He should be seeking to take Cultivation's cards off the deck, not overpower them and sway them to his side.

She cut it especially close with Dalinar - How many days, exactly, before Thaylen City did Dalinar remember the Rift?  

[AeonaRin]

On 19.12.2017 at 0:28 AM, teknopathetic said:

It would be cunning to trick Roshar into thinking fortune telling was evil so that no human ever used that against him. 

Like Ruin tricked people into thinking that the power of the Well must be released for greater good. I like that idea a lot. We know Cultivation is good at seeing the future and we have reasons to believe she is actually better at it than Odium - She is able to hide from him.

It's easy for people to believe foreseeing is of Voidbringers, because Radiants don't get these powers. But if Odium actually has a weakness to future telling it would make much sense to give that ability to his pawns. Like Megan was Firefight to hide her weakness to fire. 

[Nepene]

12 hours ago, Landis963 said:

She cut it especially close with Dalinar - How many days, exactly, before Thaylen City did Dalinar remember the Rift?  

Weren't there a few months of drunken debauchery after he remembered and got the thrill and got depressed?

He got a lot of time to fix himself. Cultivation knows just when to make things grow to beat Odium.

[Cosmé]

On 12/15/2017 at 8:55 AM, Messremb said:

I was actually just listening to one of the Mr. T interludes and he remarks at one point that on the day he created the diagram "He was a God on that day". At first I just assumed it was hyperbole, but what if it wasn't? what if he was so heavily invested with Cultivations power he was literally a sliver of Cultivation. It would make sense, as according to Honor, Cultivation is better at predicting the future than him. That would explain how the diagram predicts so much. Also, if Cultivations goal is to stop\kill Odium then this would be a great way to misdirect him into a position where he could fail. My only concern is that since we know so little of what cultivation actually wants, and her intent is not one we can count on to be favorable to the humans on Roshar, that we may be completely off on what she is trying to accomplish.

anyways, I agree that something is suspicious with the diagram, and its goal is not what we have seen.

I wonder if T’s days of God-level genius are truly random. The normal pattern is random, and follows a logarithmic pattern if I recall correctly, but can Cultivation “take control,” make him particularly smart for one day, and possibly feed him ideas a la Ruin? T’s “smart day” in Oathbringer where he changes course and reinterprets the diagram could be an example of Cultivation triggering a different stage of the plan. 

Mug she’s good enough at seeing the future, she could have even pre-determined the days that T would experience genius. “It will follow a random pattern, but we need God level genius in a couple years, hen we need no special genius until a few months after I expect the everstorm to return. Then we need one day of genius so that he can re-evaluate things...”

With that in mind, could Cultivation give T another genius day to make a new diagram? 

[AeonaRin]

8 hours ago, Nepene said:

Weren't there a few months of drunken debauchery after he remembered and got the thrill and got depressed?

He got a lot of time to fix himself. Cultivation knows just when to make things grow to beat Odium.

It was just a week though. But yes, he did have time to overcome his pain. 

[Song]

On 12/24/2017 at 4:59 AM, Landis963 said:

She cut it especially close with Dalinar - How many days, exactly, before Thaylen City did Dalinar remember the Rift?  

The way she spoke about it, it was clearly a gamble, she was aware that she might be making a tool for Odium.

[Stormfather-in-Law]

There’s a part of this I don’t think has been commented on. Smart T actually wrote a message to dumb T.

Quote

Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?
Thank you.
He read them out loud. “You have agreed to a battle of champions”....

So, by my reading, much of the original post here is right on - certainly “negotiate from a position of strength” is a fake out. Smart T saw all this coming. This doesn’t really speak to whether Cultivation is also making a play on T as well, of course, but personally I think yes, he’s a mere pawn in her play. She doesn’t seem to have much in the way of qualms.

The only other thing I wanted to highlight is that, regardless of whether Mr. T is working with Odium under an agreement at present, he now holds a dagger of knowledge about Odium’s weakness - Renarin. He is uniquely poised to ram that into a soft spot, potentially redeeming himself and the diagram itself.

[Bort]

Reading this thread, I think I just worked out what will happen with the diagram. Either it is a subterfuge or it isn't, but I think I know who will work it all out. Renarin. After all, he sees. I think Mr T is going to try to recruit Renarin, and I think the diagram will all start to make sense then.

[el_warko]

Maybe the point of The T protecting Karbrath is protecting the library?

 

Think of the amount of information that will be available once Dawnchant is fully translated.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

The diagram people also happens to collect death rattles, the expression of odium future sight. We know renarin can do opt this aspect, could the same here happen to the rattles?

[smokeesid]

On 12/15/2017 at 11:45 PM, Llarimar said:

On a side note, I am a bit confused by T's motivations.  At first, when the Diagram was introduced, I thought that he was working to become the king of the world and save all of Roshar.  However at the end of Oathbringer, he settles for just saving Kharbranth.  He also seems to be allowing Odium to gain the upper hand, giving up the fight and just counting his losses when the dust has settled.  Was that philosophy always a part of the Diagram, or has T's mindset somehow changed? 

1

He took the Diagram as his holy book and asked everyone to retain faith in it. He was overwhelmed by the extent by which he was outmatched by odium when he could immensely elaborate on each element of Tar's writing and foresee things. It was because of his emotions (that he couldn't handle to make a wise decision) he agreed to form a contract.

I would like to add that his ability to make the diagram tantamount to the ability of genius savants and so it may not be the direct influence of cultivation 

Edited December 27, 2017 by smokeesid

[.S.A.M.K.M]

He asked for the capacity to save his people, I am betting that includes the ability to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.