[OB] Kelsier vs Kaladin

[digitalbusker he/him]

I'm not sure why people keep bringing up emotional Allomancy as especially useful against Kaladin. If anything, the guy with Major Depression should be better at fighting through that than average. Depending on what you did, he might not even notice.

That's not to say that a skilled emotional Allomancer like Breeze or Allrianne couldn't seriously mess with Kaladin. But Kelsier's not that.

[asterion137 he/him]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

but I imagine even just hovering over Kelier's head and tossing Syl down time and again would be somewhat effective. 

We have never seen anything indicating that Kaladin can do this though. Adolin says that it takes serious concentration and training, and Kaladin has never done this or even thought about doing it. It's also not in character for Kaladin to run away from a fight by flying a few hundred feet in the air, and stormlight runs out a lot faster than unburnt metals.

[Naurock]

43 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

We have never seen anything indicating that Kaladin can do this though. Adolin says that it takes serious concentration and training, and Kaladin has never done this or even thought about doing it. It's also not in character for Kaladin to run away from a fight by flying a few hundred feet in the air, and stormlight runs out a lot faster than unburnt metals.

Very much so agree that it's not like Kaladin to run away. But you can't compare a dead Shardblade to a live Shardblade. It takes extreme concentration to throw a dead one because they normally puff to mist when they leave the shardbearer's hand. Kaladin would just have to tell Syl to stay as a spear, throw her, then call her back when he misses. Rinse and repeat. While I agree with the fact he just needs to get lucky once, I just don't see this working. Kelsier doesn't even need Atium to dodge this. Depending on the height he doesn't even need to push off a coin to dodge.

[Subvisual Haze]

3 hours ago, asterion137 said:

We have never seen anything indicating that Kaladin can do this though. Adolin says that it takes serious concentration and training, and Kaladin has never done this or even thought about doing it. It's also not in character for Kaladin to run away from a fight by flying a few hundred feet in the air, and stormlight runs out a lot faster than unburnt metals.

Adolin has a mostly-dead shardblade though.  His extreme focus is necessary because he's trying to issue a complex command to a zombie spren that he has a limited connection to.  SwordSyl is a fully sentient creature that can instantly vanish, reappear and instantaneously change shapes in real time with Kaladin's thoughts due to their close bond.  He hasn't thrown her at an enemy yet because he doesn't really like to kill people, but doing so would be hideously effective.

[Varenus]

2 hours ago, Naurock said:

While I agree with the fact he just needs to get lucky once, I just don't see this working. Kelsier doesn't even need Atium to dodge this. Depending on the height he doesn't even need to push off a coin to dodge.

I agree. If they are fighting in a populated city/town, Kal wouldn't even try it because he would fear hitting an innocent by accident.

---

The scenario:

Lets say that they both know that their opponent has powers, but are unaware of what those powers are initially. Kal and Kel are both intelligent enough to not needlessly waste their magic reserves and can grasp the other's powers fairly readily after encountering them once. The city they are fighting in has a decent amount of metal, but not an excessive amount. The city is Cosmere aware, 1/5 of the citizens hold small amounts of infused gems, 1/5 have vials of metal, 1/5 have metal coins, 1/5 have small stones for Kal to use, 1/5 have nothing. Each combatant comes to the battle with enough of their respective fuel to last an extended fight. The city is on a planet that has slightly less oxygen than Roshar and slightly stronger gravity, so neither party has the advantage. 

As for weapons & equipment: 

Kaladin will not really need anything other than Syl

I think that giving Kelsier a pair of steel daggers would be the most fair choice. Sure glass/obsidian daggers are traditional, but I'm sure that Kelsier would be able to pinch a steel dagger or two. No aluminum daggers, that would just be too powerful.

On to powers: 

Kaladin is of the third Ideal giving him; his shape-shifting sprenweapon(sprentool?), decent stormlight metabolism/efficiency, his three lashings plus a rudimentary control over pressure systems, and stormlight healing/strength/speed. No plate yet. Lets assume that brain injury is sufficient to drop a radiant (though Shallan survived when shot in the head with a crossbow bolt).

Kelsier knew of only eleven metals before he died. But because Atium is so powerful, lets say that Kelsier has access to the 16 base metals, no Atium, and no God metal alloys. No Feruchemy/compounding! Because we have never seen Kelsier use the new powers, lets say that he is better with them than he is with emotional allomancy, but worse with them than he is with steel/iron. Kel is essentially a mistborn in era 2.

Who wins?

Assuming that Kaladin can't create a perfect vacuum around Kelsier and make him explode, I would vote for Kel coming out on top. Kaladin is good at what he does, but not so good that Kel doesn't have an answer for it.

---

On 12/12/2017 at 6:22 PM, asterion137 said:

Kaladin has a counter to that with his reverse lashings

Another point on this: If Kel is smart, the usefulness of the reverse lashing can be mitigated through the use of some clever manipulation of pushes/pulls. For instance:

1) Kel fires off a blast of coins

2) Kal is ready for them with a Sylshield and has turned his hand behind the shield into a reverse lashing.

3) Coins are pulled toward his hand/shield

4) Kel starts pulling on the coins instead of pushing

5) Kel's pull and Kal's pull cause the coins lurch to a stop in midair

6) Kel, who is still pulling, must be pulled up in Kal's direction. Kel is slingshot directly into Kal's face, just as if the coins were heavier than Kel. The only way this isn't true is if a reverse lashing is weaker than a iron pull, which I doubt. Even if Kal could stop his reverse lashing in time, Kel would just start pushing on the coins again and repeat the process. If Kel has Atium, he would know exactly when to start pushing again.

7) Kal is running out of options. He could switch to Sylblade/spear to defend himself, but potentially give Kel an opening to attack. All Kel has to do in this situation is distract Kal until Kel can pull on the coins, which will strike true, even if he uses a reverse lashing, if Kal is using his sword/spear instead of his shield. He could stick with his shield and hope that he can lash Kel away( in which case Kel can push on the coins to stick to Kal a little longer) before Kel gets inside his shield's guard. He could use a full lashing, but the only thing for Kal to stick Kel onto is himself, not exactly an ideal situation. 

8) Kal is down after a few quick slashes or coin wounds, or he has to doge really quickly. I could see Kel doing this without Atium, but it becomes so much easier with it. If Kel has the 16 base metals, chromium and a little bendalloy would make quick work of Kal.

In the worst case scenario for Kel, he is placing metal closer to Kal or keeping him away from areas where there is metal, which is what he wants. Best case scenario, Kel gets a free way to close the gap between them.

---

The real question is: Who is the better leader? Kel or Kal?

[galendo]

4 hours ago, Naurock said:

Very much so agree that it's not like Kaladin to run away. But you can't compare a dead Shardblade to a live Shardblade. It takes extreme concentration to throw a dead one because they normally puff to mist when they leave the shardbearer's hand. Kaladin would just have to tell Syl to stay as a spear, throw her, then call her back when he misses. Rinse and repeat. While I agree with the fact he just needs to get lucky once, I just don't see this working. Kelsier doesn't even need Atium to dodge this. Depending on the height he doesn't even need to push off a coin to dodge.

I feel obliged to point out that, neglecting air resistance, a spear thrown straight down from a height of 200 ft at a speed of 100 ft/sec (about 70 mph) would travel the distance in about 1.4 seconds and would be traveling at about 200 ft/sec when it hit.  This is much faster than the fastest major-league fastball and would be difficult to dodge even if you were staring straight at it as it were thrown.  It Kelsier (or anyone) had to crane his neck to see it, it would be much more difficult.  If Kaladin could orient himself with the sun at his back, I'm going to claim that it would be nearly impossible for anyone to dodge with anything short of atium (or Feruchemical speed, or...well, I guess there's a lot of ways to dodge.  But none that a mistborn has access to, that I recall).

The question for me isn't really if Kelsier could dodge.  The question is how many tries Kaladin would need to hit him.  Still, I'm guessing he gets in something like five or ten tosses a minute, easy, and with that many attempts, i really only see the battle ending in one way.

(For the record, I'm assuming relatively flat/empty terrain and that both combatants have full knowledge of the other combatant's power set.  There's just too many variables otherwise.  I mean, if Kaladin tries a close-combat approach while Kelsier's burning atium, that ends really badly for him.  But if Kelsier decides to try blocking a Shardblade with a dagger or his arm, trusting to flared pewter to stop the blow, that ends really badly for him.  You can certainly come up with scenarios where the traditional mistborn beats the Windrunner, but I think they all require the mistborn to have a terrain/knowledge/intelligence/Investiture/luck advantage over his opponent.)

[ShardplateJoe III]

11 hours ago, Varenus said:

1) Kel fires off a blast of coins

2) Kal is ready for them with a Sylshield and has turned his hand behind the shield into a reverse lashing.

3) Coins are pulled toward his hand/shield

4) Kel starts pulling on the coins instead of pushing

5) Kel's pull and Kal's pull cause the coins lurch to a stop in midair

6) Kel, who is still pulling, must be pulled up in Kal's direction. Kel is slingshot directly into Kal's face, just as if the coins were heavier than Kel. The only way this isn't true is if a reverse lashing is weaker than a iron pull, which I doubt. Even if Kal could stop his reverse lashing in time, Kel would just start pushing on the coins again and repeat the process. If Kel has Atium, he would know exactly when to start pushing again.

Nice thinking, but this probably would not work. Because the gravity lashings alter an object's spiritual connection to their planet, when using a reverse lashing, Kaladin is changing the gravitational pull that they would feel form the planet, and putting it into another object. It would be like Kel pushing a handful of coins off of a cliff... and then pulling them back up. If Kaladin were pulling on them, that would work, the two combatants would fly toward each other, but if Kelsier tried this, he would just have to push them back at Kaladin or end up with a body full of coins that he can't heal from.

[Elanmorin]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

People here are severly underestimating atium. It's strong for a reason, it doesn't just let you see a couple of seconds into the future. It enhances your mind to automatically process that information and use it properly. It's obviously going to work better in the hands of a fighter, but Yomen wasn't a warrior and he still dodged everything that came at him while burning. 

Even with plate, Kel would take down Kal if he had atium. All it takes is a dodge and a hand with a coin up to the eyeslit and push into the brain. There's no healing that out, and the moment Kal runs out if Stormlight it's over. 

Atium and the speed thing we saw Sazed/Marsh do. Kaladin is Bruce Lee with a spear and a speed boost - if you react to what he's going to do in a couple seconds then what he's going to do in a couple seconds will change. If it comes to close quarters combat Kelsier is going to burn through his atium just to stay alive. Unless Kelsier is using the stored speed thing, in which case Kelsier wins without atium (assuming he can land a killing blow before that runs out). 

I like how Sanderson writes precognition in the Reckoners - it's an edge, but manageable to overcome. Superspeed is an "I Win" button. 

[Krios]

Another thing is if Nicrosil or Chromium could be made to work on a Radiant, if yes Kelsier will win, because it would happen in a close combat situation and Kaladin could not get away from Kelsier burning Atium.

Questioner

If an Allomancer found themselves on Nalthis or Roshar, would they be able to use chromium on someone using Stormlight or Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

I am staying away from answering too many questions like that until I start having it happen. But do know that the magics interact... some ways they interact very naturally, some ways, they don’t. One way I’ve released is, you could use bronze on most forms of Investiture to find it. So you can extrapolate that some of these things would work. But not necessarily all. All of them could be made to work.

source

[Xaladin he/him]

Re: sneaking:

One does not simply sneak up on Kaladin Stormblessed. You really think Syl will allow that?

So even if Kelsier tries to get Kal in his sleep, it's not exactly game over.

[Varenus]

7 hours ago, ShardplateJoe III said:

Because the gravity lashings alter an object's spiritual connection to their planet, when using a reverse lashing, Kaladin is changing the gravitational pull that they would feel form the planet, and putting it into another object.

I agree, notice how I said that the coin(s) would halt in midair? That wouldn't happen if the planet's gravity was still pulling on the coin(s), the coin(s) would just fall to the ground once the reverse lashing and iron pull stabilized.

8 hours ago, ShardplateJoe III said:

It would be like Kel pushing a handful of coins off of a cliff... and then pulling them back up.

That is assuming that Kal can't multiply the force of his reverse lashing, which is doubtful considering that the reverse lashing(from the ars arcanum):

Quote

is believed to be a specialized version of Basic Lashing

So conceivably he would be able to increase the strength of his reverse lashing just like his basic lashings. By simply activating overlapping reverse lashings or by fueling a single reverse lashing with more stormlight.

Also, Kal would probably need to increase the strength of his reverse lashing in order to effectively block close and mid range coins. Otherwise Kel's coins could, perhaps, just push right through it with minimal change in direction. Which severely diminishes the utility of his reverse lashing in a way that, imo, is unfair for Kal.

---

1 hour ago, Xaladin said:

You really think Syl will allow that

That was what I was thinking as well!

But then I remembered that Syl has a tendency to roam around and spy on people while Kal isn't around. So, Kel could just wait till she left, using bronze to sense when.

Though to be fair, Kel wouldn't know that.

---

17 hours ago, galendo said:

But none that a mistborn has access to, that I recall

Well there is also Bendalloy, but Kelsier didn't know that existed before he died. Atium and steel/iron already create a pretty slippery target though.

Assuming that they are both given comparable amounts of fuel, Kel could just sacrifice all his Atium dogging until Kal runs out of stormlight. Atium burns quickly, but lashings are also one of the more stormlight-hungry forms of surgebinding. Kel would probably burn trough all his Atium faster, but how much longer can Kal be expected to stay up there? Metals are much easier to ration than stormlight is, and all Kal's powers draw from the same power reserve.

I don't know if a war of attrition would be the best choice for a windrunner.

[Blazenella he/him]

On 2/2/2018 at 3:46 PM, Krios said:

 @BlazenellaI think they use glass daggers in Mistborn sometimes, sometimes they are obsidian daggers. We could also give him two alluminum-alloy daggers, so he can block Syl. If Kelsier would use an innoncent as a human shield, which I could believe him doing.

Brandon and Peter have discussed this quite a bit, but aluminum CAN be cut with a Shardblade. Not as easily due to the investiture block, but past the Shardblade's magic cutting it is still a REALLY sharp sword. Glass or Obsidian would be ruined immediately, and my point with the meat shield is that it would be hard to attack Kaladin while holding some rando at knife point.

[galendo]

2 hours ago, Varenus said:

Well there is also Bendalloy, but Kelsier didn't know that existed before he died. Atium and steel/iron already create a pretty slippery target though.

 

Assuming that they are both given comparable amounts of fuel, Kel could just sacrifice all his Atium dogging until Kal runs out of stormlight. Atium burns quickly, but lashings are also one of the more stormlight-hungry forms of surgebinding. Kel would probably burn trough all his Atium faster, but how much longer can Kal be expected to stay up there? Metals are much easier to ration than stormlight is, and all Kal's powers draw from the same power reserve.

I don't know if a war of attrition would be the best choice for a windrunner.

Would a time bubble would give you time to dodge?  I guess if the Shardblade were outside the bubble when it formed, but then you're burning your metals at a much faster speed than the other guy's going through his Stormlight.  It's a short-term solution for the mistborn at best.  And if the Blade's already within the bubble or hasn't yet left the Radiant's hand, you're burning through your metals for nothing.

As for Kaladin hanging in the air, I seem to recall in Oathbringer a scene where he hangs in the air for hours, watching the sun set.  Whereas a bead of atium runs out in like...a couple minutes?  I kind of forget, but I remember that Vin is really startled at how quickly it burns the first time she used it.

Iron, steel, and flared pewter are probably the mistborn's best long-term solution for dodging, but remember you've got to dodge suddenly every five or ten seconds.  At some point, you're going to be a bit too slow and screw up.  Even if there's only, say, one chance in a hundred that the Windrunner hits, he still wins in...ten or fifteen minutes, on average?  Something like that.

[Calderis he/him]

29 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

Brandon and Peter have discussed this quite a bit, but aluminum CAN be cut with a Shardblade. Not as easily due to the investiture block, but past the Shardblade's magic cutting it is still a REALLY sharp sword.

No, there's been a back and forth on whether it would cut, and it absolutely does not cut magically. If the metal is thin enough, it will still cut, but a think enough piece will hold. The  example Peter used was foil, not a blade or something similar. 

And seeing as Nightbloods sheath is aluminum, and we've now seen it used to block him... I think an aluminum weapon to block is perfectly valid. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What metal is Nightblood's sheath made out of?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Nightblood's sheath is aluminum.

source

 

[Varenus]

3 hours ago, galendo said:

Would a time bubble would give you time to dodge?

If the blade is already in the air, then defiantly. The extra speed is enough to watch an explosion in slow motion(when flared), as demonstrated by Wayne.

3 hours ago, galendo said:

And if the Blade's already within the bubble or hasn't yet left the Radiant's hand, you're burning through your metals for nothing.

You only need to be burning two metals at max. If the blade is in the air, you only need bendalloy assuming you can judge the trajectory well enough to escape. If the blade is still in hand, burn bendalloy then Atium to find out where the blade will be thrown. The extra mental capacity granted by Atium will make calculating the trajectory easy and you will only need to burn each metal for a few seconds at a time. Getting the timing down can be done by realizing that Syl disappears every time Kal wants to throw again. 

If that runs out, start using steel/iron erratically. Kal is too far away to mess with the coins, so just put them everywhere. You could set it up so that you never really have to touch the floor if you put enough coins down.

If, somehow, Kal has still not run out of stormlight, run around with pewter and tin. better than nothing and I'm pretty sure they increase your reaction time a little. According to the coppermind it does:

Quote

Pewter also increases reaction speed

If all else fails, start burning electrum. If your shadow dies suddenly, change direction. In fact, just use bendalloy and electrum and save your Atium. 

But I just don't see Kal's stormlight lasting this long. Realistically he would probably run out somewhere between steel/iron and tin/pewter.

3 hours ago, galendo said:

As for Kaladin hanging in the air, I seem to recall in Oathbringer a scene where he hangs in the air for hours, watching the sun set.

And yet, he runs out of stormlight three times in OB. Once when he is trying to get to his home town, twice in Shadesmar, and a third time during the final battle(Rock has to save him).

Half the time we see Kal use his powers for actual fighting in OB he is either in a highstorm or Dalinar just went super saiyan. I think we need Sigzil to run a few more tests quantifying Kal's powers.  

[Vissy]

I think it's more a case of his skills having outpaced his current Oath level (and the Stormlight efficiency that comes with it) by this point in the story. It's a side-effect of being almost ready to say the Words.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 2/2/2018 at 3:20 PM, Blazenella said:

GLASS DAGGERS!!! Kaladin would break this within the first few seconds of the fight, and using a nearby person as a shield makes it very hard for Kelsier to fight.

Magic sword, dueling cane, whatever his enemy is wielding, do you really think Kelsier would try and parry with his daggers? Kelsier is not an idiot.
Also, why in Karzahni do you think Kaladin would be using a meat shield? Isn't that the complete antithesis of his Oaths to protect people?

On 2/2/2018 at 0:15 PM, Blazenella said:

Lashings don't rely on weight, just shove a bunch of lashings on something being pushed and it would cause anyone fighting him to SLAM into the ground.

Far be it for me to say "That's not how gravity works," but....

Gravity is what gives an object it's weight. One Gravity, One weight. One Sixth Gravity(Moon Grav), One Sixth Weight.
One Lashing is One Gravity. If the lashed item is lighter than Kelsier, his push should be able to move it. The same holds for multiple lashings: Double Lashing, Double Gravity, Double Weight. If the item is still lighter than Kelsier, it still gets pushed.

Assuming there's sturdy metal/a building nearby, Kelsier can brace himself and move an object several times his weight(something Wax demonstrated, if memory serves).

I realize now that you probably meant that Lashings aren't dependent on the user's weight, but that's what happens when we aren't specific enough on here. Doesn't change what I wrote above, as my points should still hold up.

On 2/2/2018 at 3:53 PM, galendo said:

but I imagine even just hovering over Kelier's head and tossing Syl down time and again would be somewhat effective.  Kelsier has to dodge every time, while Kaladin only needs to get lucky once.
[..]
I feel obliged to point out that, neglecting air resistance, a spear thrown straight down from a height of 200 ft at a speed of 100 ft/sec (about 70 mph) would travel the distance in about 1.4 seconds and would be traveling at about 200 ft/sec when it hit.

In your theoretical, Kaladin is "a couple hundred feet up or so." Syl isn't gonna fall like a lightning bolt. In the daytime, Kelsier would have ample time to dodge since he can probably see Kaladin(who'd be the center of where Syl gets thrown from). If it's nighttime, Kelsier leaves, since Kaladin can't see him.

I know Kaladin has Stormlight strength, but 70 mph? That seems... exceptionally higher than reasonable(or humanly possible). I am forced to assume that you intend for him to lash his Shardspear downwards, which (a) might not even be possible, and (b) severely limits how much he can do this, unless he intends to fall to his death from lack of Stormlight.

Additionally, we don't actually know how far away Syl can get from Kaladin. There is a limit(unless you're Dalinar).

[galendo]

13 hours ago, Varenus said:

You only need to be burning two metals at max. If the blade is in the air, you only need bendalloy assuming you can judge the trajectory well enough to escape. If the blade is still in hand, burn bendalloy then Atium to find out where the blade will be thrown. The extra mental capacity granted by Atium will make calculating the trajectory easy and you will only need to burn each metal for a few seconds at a time. Getting the timing down can be done by realizing that Syl disappears every time Kal wants to throw again.  

I don't think this is nearly as easy as you think.  Remember that the Blade is only "in the air" for about one and a half seconds.  That's a pretty small window to hit, especially considering that for part of that time the trajectory would be difficult to determine and for part of it the Blade's too close to dodge.  And every time you're a bit too early or too late, you've burned metals for nothing.  And even when you're spot on, you're still burning metals faster than your opponent, since you're inside a time-bubble and he's not.  I also don't think the timing would be quite as regular as you think.  Sometimes Kaladin might take one second to throw, sometimes two or three.  With maybe a one-second window that you've got to hit, that's a huge fluctuation in timing.

Quote

If that runs out, start using steel/iron erratically. Kal is too far away to mess with the coins, so just put them everywhere. You could set it up so that you never really have to touch the floor if you put enough coins down

Yeah, this is probably your best bet, but you're still burning through iron, steel, and pewter pretty much constantly.  I'm guessing the mistborn runs out/gets tired/screws up before the Windrunner does.  Remember, you've got to make a sporadic change every two or three seconds whenever you don't know where the Blade is, and only get about a five-second break when you actually see the Blade hit ground.  That seems like it'd be pretty hard to keep up.

Quote

And yet, he runs out of stormlight three times in OB. Once when he is trying to get to his home town, twice in Shadesmar, and a third time during the final battle(Rock has to save him)

Sure, he runs out getting to Hearthstone, but look at how long Kaladin stays in the air: "After just half a day, he'd run out of Stormlight somewhere in Aladar's princedom."  It also says that he'd "flown to the northwest at speed", which probably means he was using multiple lashings.  It's unclear precisely how many times he'd lashed himself or precisely how many hours he'd been in the air, though "half a day" probably has to mean at least...let's say five hours.  That's pretty conservative.  So, bare minimum, Kaladin can reasonably hang in the air for five hours with a pouch full of Stormlight.  In reality, it's probably several times that, but since we don't know how many times Kaladin had lashed himself or precisely how many hours he flew, it's hard to say for certain.

The other times he runs out, when he's not conserving Stormlight for something else, are the battle before the Oathgate in Shadesmar and the battle in Thaylen City.  In both cases he's using lots and lots of lashings fighting against flying enemies, and it's implied if not outright stated that he gets hit several times.  We know that healing from wounds takes a lot of Stormlight, so that's probably where most of it's going.

So five hours is a conservative estimate for how long Kaladin can hang in the air, if he doesn't have to do anything else.  With another conservative estimate of a throw every ten seconds, that's a very conservative 1800 tries to hit a moving target at 200 feet.  I could probably toss a rock off a cliff and hit someone scurrying around down below, given 1800 attempts.  I'm pretty certain Kaladin could do better with the (bladed) throwing object of his choice.

I suppose I should also point out that just because a Windrunner of Kaladin's level would almost certainly win the contest with a mistborn, doesn't mean that the Windrunner is better.  Given the choice, I'd much rather be a mistborn than a Windrunner (at least for now; getting Plate might change my opinion).  Mistborn are way more versatile and, on the whole, have much cooler and more powerful abilities.

Against most of the Radiant orders, I'd put my money on the mistborn without a second thought, even against a full Radiant if the mistborn had atium.  But mistborn just aren't good at fighting flying enemies who can spam instakill range attacks, and that's exactly what Windrunners can do.  Without other environmental factors in the mistborn's favor, I really only see this contest ending one way.

[SallyA she/her]

On 2/2/2018 at 2:46 PM, Krios said:

Mistborn and Fullborn. Kelsier as a Mistborn is a discussion, but a Fullborn? Kelsier or Marsch or Raschek vs all current Knights Radiants, wouldnt be a fair fight or even a fight for the Knights Radiants. Nothing short of a shard can stop a fullborn, in my opinion.

Also there is a demand for Kelsier and Kaladin meeting. I mean Sazed could just send Marsch and Kelsier to help out on Roschar. I mean imagine the scenes. All the possible cool things. I want this in Stormlight 4.

This is intriguing. .. however, there are a number of us coming into the Sanderson Cosmere with the Stormlight Trilogy, and so much of what you mention is completely unknown!

Fullborn = ?? .. Metals 16 in 3 ... and more?

If you put it in book 4, which I am waiting on also, there will have to be a 17th board to catch us up, or some discretionary interlude where these principles, properties and etc are fleshed out a bit.  Sounds awesome, however.

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, galendo said:

It's unclear precisely how many times he'd lashed himself or precisely how many hours he'd been in the air, though "half a day" probably has to mean at least...let's say five hours.

That's probably a good guess for how long he was in the air, as Roshar doesn't have an axial tilt, and it has 20 hour days. But why do you think a pouch would last him that long? They loaded him up with infused gems before he left. He had far more available then he normally would. 

Every lashing depletes that faster. I'm guessing off a single pouch, airborne, while using other lashings to try and keep things up, your looking at a good half hour. At most. 

As to the bendalloy atium combo... That's not going to work as well as people are proposing. Time is altered for the person inside the bubble, and atium only sees a couple of seconds in the future. For someone inside a bendalloy bubble, with the outside world slowed to near immobility, the atium shadows of someone burning inside would reduce what they see of those outside to uselessness. 

Bendalloy is probably a bad idea to begin with unless you know the bubble is going to drop before the projectile reaches you. The irratic shift in direct of something as it crosses the boundary would make dodging total guesswork. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

32 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Fullborn = ??

It's a Fan-made term. Mistborn Spoilers:

Spoiler

Fullborn are people who have access to all 34 Allomantic & Feruchemical powers(16A, 16F, A-Atium, F-Atium).
Our only confirmed example is Rashek, though someone holding the Bands of Mourning would temporarily be one, minus the Atium.
The Sovereign is somewhat implied(and heavily theorized) to be a Fullborn, but to my knowledge, we do not have that confirmed.
Marsh, despite what people may say, is not a Fullborn, as he only has 22 spikes. At a minimum, he's missing 11 powers.

Edited February 4, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[galendo]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

In your theoretical, Kaladin is "a couple hundred feet up or so." Syl isn't gonna fall like a lightning bolt. In the daytime, Kelsier would have ample time to dodge since he can probably see Kaladin(who'd be the center of where Syl gets thrown from). If it's nighttime, Kelsier leaves, since Kaladin can't see him.

I know Kaladin has Stormlight strength, but 70 mph? That seems... exceptionally higher than reasonable(or humanly possible). I am forced to assume that you intend for him to lash his Shardspear downwards, which (a) might not even be possible, and (b) severely limits how much he can do this, unless he intends to fall to his death from lack of Stormlight.

Additionally, we don't actually know how far away Syl can get from Kaladin. There is a limit(unless you're Dalinar).

Nah, 70 mph seems pretty reasonable.  That's about the speed that professional javelin throwers can throw at, and while that's with a running start (which Kaladin won't have), it seems offset by Syl being much lighter than a normal javelin and Kaladin having a Stormlight boost to speed and strength.  Might even be too conservative.  If Syl weighs as much as a baseball, well, any professional pitcher can throw a 90 mph fastball.  But even if Kaladin can only throw at 60 mph instead, it doesn't change the math all that much.  You're still looking at rather less than two seconds to dodge.

It's true that this strategy doesn't work as well at night, but I was trying to leave out environmental factors.  How good are Kaladin's eyes?  Is Kelsier wearing a mistcloak, or is he dressed in dark clothing?  What planet are they on, and which moon(s) are up?  Is the sky overcast?  What color is the ground?  There's too many variables to take into account.  So I just assume they can see each other.

Is there a limit to how far Syl can get?  I didn't know that, but I doubt it's 200-300 feet.  She goes way farther than that to find him a leaf of Blackbane in TWoK.  Though yes, if she can't take physical form at that distance, then this strategy wouldn't work.  Still, it doesn't seem like it would be a problem.  I'm guessing Kaladin and Shallan were farther apart than that at times during their chasmfiend fight, and Pattern didn't puff to smoke.

[SallyA she/her]

[OB] ... Speaking of Pattern, I did not notice at which point he became separated from Shallan and she did not miss his presence!

. . . AND THEN  . . Pattern had to be rescued from the palace (which was being deconstructed) by Wit! 

Its a nice piece of writing, I just totally missed the reasoning behind it!

 

[digitalbusker he/him]

11 minutes ago, SallyA said:

[OB] ... Speaking of Pattern, I did not notice at which point he became separated from Shallan and she did not miss his presence!

. . . AND THEN  . . Pattern had to be rescued from the palace (which was being deconstructed) by Wit! 

Its a nice piece of writing, I just totally missed the reasoning behind it!

 

That wasn't Pattern. That was another Cryptic. Presumably the one trying to bond Elhokar.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, galendo said:

it seems offset by Syl being much lighter than a normal javelin. [..] If Syl weighs as much as a baseball, well, any professional pitcher can throw a 90 mph fastball. 

I'm gonna be blunt and say "light as a baseball" seems patently ridiculous. At best, I'd say the Shard-Weapon in question would weigh about the same as the unaided human equivalent. Swords/Axes/Spears/etc.. are built around the balance/weight ratio for the swing. Mess with that and you'd get a good bit of under/overswing since it's off-balance compared to what you're used to. Kaladin didn't have any of that with his new Shardspear, or else Szeth would've cut him to ribbons.

So I feel that Shardweaponry is roughly the same weight as a normal weapon. Under this idea, the reason Shardblades are "lighter than they should be," which is to say, lighter than a 6 foot normal sword would be, is because they are maintaining the weight of a standard sword. (Which would mean that Shardblades are actually "bigger than they should be," rather than "lighter.")

26 minutes ago, galendo said:

Nah, 70 mph seems pretty reasonable.  That's about the speed that professional javelin throwers can throw at, and while that's with a running start (which Kaladin won't have) [...] But even if Kaladin can only throw at 60 mph instead, it doesn't change the math all that much.  You're still looking at rather less than two seconds to dodge.

Can a Windrunner orient themselves when lashed in midair, or are they always gonna be standing "upwards," relative to the ground? If he can orient himself to be parallel with the actual ground, then this little interlude is largely irrelevant. But if he can't, then he's gotta swing to throw downwards at Kelsier, rather than aiming in front of him like a pitcher/javelin thrower. I'm not the most experienced, but I think you'd have a little difficulty getting the same speed with a throw like that.
(Sidenote: My humanly possible comment was relating to the solid-metal nature of Shardweaponry, and the subconscious thought that they'd be really heavy)

2 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Pattern had to be rescued from the palace (which was being deconstructed) by Wit! 

No. Oathbringer Spoilers:

Spoiler

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]
Was Hoid's Cryptic the same one that was meant for Elhokar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes.

---

32 minutes ago, galendo said:

1. Is there a limit to how far Syl can get?
2. I didn't know that, but I doubt it's 200-300 feet. She goes way farther than that to find him a leaf of Blackbane in TWoK.
3. Though yes, if she can't take physical form at that distance, then this strategy wouldn't work.
4. I'm guessing Kaladin and Shallan were farther apart than that at times during their chasmfiend fight, and Pattern didn't puff to smoke.

1. Rereading the WoB, the questioner asks if the Spren has to be close for the Radiant to use their abilities. If that's what Brandon directly said yes to, then your plan might dispell Kaladin's lashings and knock him out of the sky. Or it would prevent Syl from getting that far away (which I'm not sure about, see 2) but if it does, see 3.
2. As you mentioned, she wasn't manifested in Blade-form at the time. Also, he wasn't using his powers at the time, so there might not have been any indication she exceeded it.
3. As mentioned in 1, if she leaves the area, Kal wouldn't be able to use his powers, which could kill him. I feel that the system should be smarter than that, so I'll presume that it would forcibly despawn her from Blade-form so she doesn't leave the area.
4. I'd have to reread, but I highly doubt she got that far away from him. I'm not sure she exceeded(or even reached) 100 feet away from him at any given point.