(OB) Lets Talk Moash

[Dreamstorm]

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think those were just there to show how Moash just excels at one thing. Throwing to the trash all the opportunities he is given.

LOL'd a lot at this.  Tell us how you really feel!

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

he was always hateful from the start, and I never liked him. kaladin however had a lot of darkness in him. i think that's part of the reason they got along: there was a bit of moash inside kaladin. i am so glad to see him putting that part aside.

 

3 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I also think is was their common hatred towards lighteyes and the hardships they suffered because of them, that brought them closer. I recently read an article that said the best friends/hips are made over common hate for the same things ( I can attest that is true in many of my friendships  ) 

I feel silly because you guys just slapped me in the face with a huge duh - I just now connected that Kaladin's worst traits are those about which he really bonds with Moash.  I totally got the "parallel arcs but making different choices" angle, but for some reason the fact that Moash accentuates the bad parts of Kaladin was lost of me despite the whole storming Elhokar storyline in WoR.  (Side note, we really need the monkey with hands over eyes emoji on here for moments like this.)  So, I'm kind of the opinion now that Moash was never supposed to be a "good" character, even when he was on our side.  I don't know if that adds more depth to him character for me, but it does make me appreciate the scope of when he started being set up as the bad guy... kind of from the start.  I guess the most interesting thing is that Kaladin was still sympathetic to him at the beginning of OB (Roshone punch), so Kaladin hasn't internalized this (I don't remember how Kaladin processes Moash post-Kholinar as I remember his thoughts being focused on the parshman/wall guard.)  I wonder if this will ever hit Kaladin and what the repercussions will be.  I wonder if we can even trust Moash's account of the Roshone affair, which I know was partially validated by Dalinar.  (I wonder if I'm reading too much into this )

[Nymeros]

On 12/2/2017 at 2:02 PM, Ookla the Toasted said:

So, Moash. What does everyone think of him (I suspect most people place him somewhere with Sadeas and Amaram)? Personally, I found his whole indifference about everything interesting, and I am excited to see how his relationship with the Voidbringers will develop, and who he will end up being as Vyre. 

What is everyones opinion on him?

Also, I'll tag @Dreamstorm here, because of stated interest in a thread like this.

I'm sorry, are you Toaster Retribution by another name or some other toast themed poster? You have a million posts but I've never seen you?

 

Anywhos Moash is not a likeable person in my opinion and I couldn't ever bring myself to root for him after his first few chapters.....i found his generally disinterested worldview extremely off putting. Odium's emotion eating is just nasty; it's scary that he cannot bring himself to give a damnation even when he wants to. How could anyone live with that passionless numbness?

He is very interesting though so I also don't consider him to be a bad character at all. He's easily the character I had the most trouble empathizing with and understanding so I had to put more thought into his story than I did any other in the book. That his mental state was exaggerated by magical forces didn't help matters. 

He's easily one of the characters in most excited to see work in the future books so Brandon is doing something right.

 

Hope Leshwi and Khens group stock around as his entourage (especially Leshwi...my inner shipping fangirl hat is on).

Anyone else want to see Nale preach to Moash? Nale has walked the same path and struggles with sympathizing and feeling emotions. Maybe he can teach Vyre how to fight with an Honorblade.....lord knows he needs practice with a sword. He's awesome with a spear but a spear will be useless to him in the battles to come.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Nymeros

[Wolven]

Very interesting character, but ohhhh man I want to punch him in the face.  Elhokar was just starting to grow on me!  I am really eager to see some interactions between him and Venli considering how they were complete opposites from each other in how their stories are playing out.  

When it comes time for him to die though, if he does, I hope it's Kaladin, and I hope he says something like this to Moash, "Elhokar was a better man than you".

 

[Wolven]

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 1:35 PM, Ookla the Effervescent said:

Voidbringers be like:

 

In all seriousness, I'm interested to see where it goes.

Hopefully, it goes with him being Odium's tool, until Odium grows tired of him and tries to have him disposed. Then Moash slinks back to Kaladin, and Kaladin kills him.

I'll have to reevaluate my opinion on a reread, but I didn't really like Moash's chapters. I see why they were in there, but they were the only ones in the whole book I was uninterested in and tempted to skip. I do hope Brandon puts a little more feeling into him in the next book, just to make it a bit more believable. It wasn't handled 100% to my satisfaction. But again, I'm interested in seeing where it goes. Maybe it's redeemable (the plot, not Moash, he's crem).

 

I thought his chapters were believable.  I think right now Moash is feeling really numb about everything.  He doesn't really know what to think or what to feel, so he doesn't really think or feel anything.  Exiled from the only people who cared about him after betraying Kaladin, seeing his new friends killed, taken in by the enemy and flipping to their side of things.  I can understand why there's not a whole of feeling in his chapters.  

[ghajan monk]

I wonder if Moash will get put in charge of Amaram's soldiers. Also if Moash still cares about getting revenge on Roshone this could lead to the next encounter with Kaladin. 

[Nymeros]

On 12/2/2017 at 4:21 PM, Darvys said:

I could have cared for his arc if he had actually decided to side with the Listeners for whatever reason he chose, not just going with the flow like the moron he is.

But well, reading his chapters made me rethink my best quote of all time, it's now this : "I'm no fool" - Moash, Words of Radiance.

He sided with you the Singers because he views humanity as unworthy of ruling Roshar. He wasnt just going along with the flow. He's explicitly given a free choice and decides to dedicate himself to the Singers.

And no, Moash is no fool, crappy as his luck is. He's shown to be very intelligent and competent.

In particular, I was impressed that he immediately grasped that the Singers were attempting to over burden Kholinar with refugees even when Kaladin the soldier could not.

9 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think those were just there to show how Moash just excels at one thing. Throwing to the trash all the opportunities he is given.

I dunno he seems to have done quite well.

Even with no resources and put in a position where he was expected to die, he took initiative and actually personally brought down the king of Alethkar. No guiding spirits or magic, just wit and will.

He's now gained the respect of the Singers and Fused and had been made the owner of Jezriens own Honorblade.

7 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

He just killed Elhokar for his petty revenge, even though the world was kind of ending and there were problems magnitudes larger to deal with.

To be fair, the world wasn't really ending....theres just a shift in leadership and Moash is playing his best game for his side.

Saying killing Elokhar was a poor play simply because his child happened to be at the battle seems small minded....like, how? 

5 hours ago, Starla said:

Do we know if Moash's eyes remained light after giving up his shardblade? I can't recall if it's mentioned in the text.

He's dark eyed again.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Nymeros

[Toaster Retribution]

7 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I'm sorry, are you Toaster Retribution by another name or some other toast themed poster? You have a million posts but I've never seen you?

I'm Toaster Retribution with an Ookla themed name. Will change back soon :-)

[Ailvara]

On 2.12.2017 at 8:35 PM, Leuthie said:

From the perspective of watching a villain being created, Moash's progression has been great.  He's a perfect anti-Jezrien, which seems to be what Odium (and BS)  is setting him up as.  

I'm really wondering, where they're going to head with this. Moash has now Jezrien's blade and something he captured from him - my guess is, the power he was Invested with? Maybe it will let the fused turn him literally into an anti-Herald. Would explain why they need him, we might have half void/surgebinders, but maybe Heralds' power is exclusive to humans.

[hypatia]

What was new in his chapters?

His name is an old singer-name and it was his grandfather who had him named.

His grandparents weren't his only relatives, he was with his uncle away when the Roshone-Affair appeared.

Don't know what to do with this informations, but they are interesting.

For his further way - yes, I see him as the future champion of Odium and as some sort of Anti-Herald.

But there are two tiny points:

He neither had killed a Bridge Four member nor Gavinor.

There has still his tattoo on his back and I don't think Odium knows of this/is interested in.

Whereas I'm convinced he will be the main villain in the next few book, I believe he will get his redemption arc in the end.

Looking at Dalinar - he is able to conquer Odium because he knows in a sense his dark side, because he is the "friend" of the Thrill.

With Vyre it looks like Odium is using a different technique - going after the Oathpact, replacing -at the moment - one of the Heralds with his minion.

I would really like to see this plan go horrible wrong - giving Vyre the place of Jezrien can give Moash the possibility to take his place in Damnation in order to redeem himself.

I want him to suffer but only if it means to help against Odium.

 

[Rainier]

I was pretty disappointed that Amaram turned into a super-bad-guy. I was hoping that he would be humanized, or justified in his actions, and we'd get to see more of exactly how and why he thinks he's doing right. Instead, he turns to the enemy the first chance he gets, robbing us of any further moral ambiguity and ensuring that everything he ever did was evil.

Given that WoB says Gavilar was on the path to be a Bondsmith, I was hoping that Amaram would have more depth than simply big-bad-guy #2 (after Sadeas), and I hope that Moash has more depth than simply big-bad-guy #3. 

I want Moash to have to confront what he's doing to his people and his friends, as he's shaping up to have some of the moral ambiguity of Amaram. He's been wronged and has exacted his revenge on the man he deemed responsible for that, but moreso he's turned his back on all of humanity in the process.

It seems pretty clear that Moash is being set up to be the primary antagonist in the next book, and possibly the following book as well. The question is what will become of him: will he realize what he's doing, now that his vengeance is satisfied, or will he embrace Odium and the powers offered?

The best bad guys are the ones who think they're the good guys, and who can justify their actions within their morals. That's what I was hoping for from Amaram, and since that went up in smoke (or was frozen in crystal), I'm hoping for the same thing from Moash.

[WhiteLeeopard]

46 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Given that WoB says Gavilar was on the path to be a Bondsmith, I was hoping that Amaram would have more depth than simply big-bad-guy #2 (after Sadeas), and I hope that Moash has more depth than simply big-bad-guy #3. 

Gavilar may have been on the path to a Bondsmith, but I have considered him to be big-bad-guy #1 well above Sadeas and Amaram for a while. And nothing I saw on OB disproved that from my mind. 

I get what you mean of humanized villains, and while I hope we get some more Moash pov I also don't see everyone having a redemption path. Moash, my gut feeling says he is one of those that won't get redemption, or if he does it will be Darth Vader style with his death as payment/sacrifice. Of course that's just my perspective .

Not so sure we should expect Moash morals though, considering he has given all his passion to Odium.

Edited December 7, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Fifth of Daybreak]

So I'm not quite sure how to properly put into words how I feel about Moash. I don't like the person, I love the character, I'm probably most interested in his arc at this point in time, and I actually do respect him quite a bit. 

Plain and simple, Moash is a traitor. He pledged himself to Bridge Four, then broke that pledge immediately. That being said, I had written him off as what I was least looking forward to after WoR, and boy was I wrong. 

The choice to have him immediately removed from Graves was brilliant. Moash in the Diagram always struck me as wrong for the character. Then he manages to kill a Fused using skills given to him by Kaladin and rejects his Shards. I'm interested. 

His cracking at the meeting with the Brighlord was also pretty cool for me. Moash recognizes that he's been pushed towards his betrayal. Society has been founded on injustice, from religion to politics, to even the Singers former state of mind. Kaladin is the only right thing in this world and Moash betrayed him. How he reacted to this really is what made me respect him. He chose to devote himself to the most grueling work possible. Then he defends injustice against the new ruling class to try and prevent the mistakes of his race in the new world order. For me, it's important that he works to improve the mistakes of the past as he helps the force he sees driving to overthrow the current immoral and broken status quo. He was part of the problem before, his way to atone for that is to devote himself to the most grueling work demolishing the old corrupt establishment. 

He continues that work when he's freed, working with the underprivileged, following Kaladin's example, despite being able to leave to wherever he wants to go. He dedicates himself to the front lines of a dangerous assault despite having no personal ties to urge him onward except his own shame for his past, although he has given that up to Odium. 

That brings us to Elhokar. I don't want to rehash my thoughts that I've made clear elsewhere, but I think that his role here was the most beautiful symmetry, and this scene was my favorite one in the entire book. Elhokar consistently failed to learn or grow until a disaster blew up in his face. Moash represents the only past major blunder that I can account for at the moment that has not blown up in his face yet. For it to be the one thing from his past that he never acknowledged and that he couldn't outrun, it's a beautiful tragedy

The salute was also a beautiful moment for me. Obviously we can't know what his intentions were in that moment, but I interpreted that as him trying to teach Kaladin to get his own vengeance and take care of himself. A twisted and regretful lesson sure, but Moash is a twisted and regretful character.

I do want to contest that he kicked Gavinor. the text says he 'shoved aside the weeping child with his foot.' It's kind of a distinction. 

On that note, yes, from our perspective, Elhokar was protecting his child. From Moash's perspective, Elhokar was the leader of an invading force kidnapping the son of Queen Aesudan who was allied with the Singers. He's immediately retrieved by a member of the Queen's Guard after Elhokar has fallen. A battle is messy and chaotic. One side's rescue is another side's kidnapping.

I'm also pretty convinced by the idea of the dagger being Hemalurgy. That has some pretty wild implications if the gemstone is somehow able to alter the way the power is accessed or manifests. 

Anyways, let's move onto some wild speculation, aka the reason I'm so obssessed with Moash. 

I'm really enamored with the idea that Odium, that is Rayse, is killed at the end of book five, and someone else picks up Odium and continues the fight. I'd like that person to be Moash. I think he'd make a great antagonist for the rest of the series. He's already convinced that Roshar, as it stands, is unworthy. If, in the final conflict, Kaladin dies, not even by Moash's hand, I could even see him turning on Odium, taking up the Shard, and then waging a holy war of Vengence against Roshar for killing the only good thing in the world. 

And storms, that thought scares me. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[thejopen27]

On 12/2/2017 at 4:42 PM, Ookla the Toasted said:

Call me silly, but I wouldn't call Moash evil. He has given up on society, and on the human race. Circumstances has formed him into the person he is. I don't want a redemption arc either, but I wouldn't say that Moash deserves to be remembered as evil. I think he is more complicated than that.

That's the whole point of Moash, he has stopped taking responsibility for his actions and has placed the responsibility for his actions on others. He has let Odium take responsibility from him. Society can be responsible for the actions of groups of people, but individuals always have a choice. He made the opposite choice that Dalinar and Kaladin made. 

[Rainier]

15 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Gavilar may have been on the path to a Bondsmith, but I have considered him to be big-bad-guy #1 well above Sadeas and Amaram for a while. And nothing I saw on OB disproved that from my mind. 

Do you think Gavilar would have swallowed the gem? Would have turned himself into a crazy 10-surge crystal beast?

He was definitely the 'bad guy,' but I wanted to see more of his justifications and reasoning. I wanted to know what he expected to accomplish, because even though we know he wanted to bring back the Fused, we don't really know why or what he expected to do once they returned. Maybe that smoke-filled stone that he gave to Szeth is the source of Voidlight and he was going to bend the Parsh to his will and conquer Roshar. Somehow, that doesn't seem likely.

Amaram never seemed to care about uniting the highprinces, or the nations, or really anyone. He never seemed to read or care about The Way of Kings, so I'd keep him slightly separate from Gavilar in that regard. 

15 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I also don't see everyone having a redemption path. Moash, my gut feeling says he is one of those that won't get redemption, or if he does it will be Darth Vader style with his death as payment/sacrifice.

I don't care so much whether he redeems himself or not, or sacrifices himself at the end. Rather, I want him to think that he's doing the right thing within his own value structure and based on his own experiences. It's like what @Ookla the Obtuse called a beautiful tragedy: Moash was always going to kill Elhokar, and he was always going to feel justified doing it, and we as readers know just enough to consider he might be right.

I want my bad guys to think they're good guys, and to work for whatever good they think they know, to work towards their own goals based on their on priorities. The conflict comes when those values and priorities start to clash with those of our protagonists. I want the same thing of Moash (and Odium himself) as I wanted from Amaram: plausibility with a hint of sympathy, despite the terrible things they've done.

14 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I'm really enamored with the idea that Odium, that is Rayse, is killed at the end of book five, and someone else picks up Odium and continues the fight. I'd like that person to be Moash. I think he'd make a great antagonist for the rest of the series. He's already convinced that Roshar, as it stands, is unworthy. If, in the final conflict, Kaladin dies, not even by Moash's hand, I could even see him turning on Odium, taking up the Shard, and then waging a holy war of Vengence against Roshar for killing the only good thing in the world. 

And storms, that thought scares me. 

I would be shocked if Rayse bites the dust by the end of book 5, but I've been pushing my Desolations theory of the gap between books 5 and 6. A new bearer of the shard could absolutely be the reason the 'Final Desolation' really isn't final. Rayse dies, Oathpact serves its purpose, but there's a new bearer, Moash, and thus a new Oathpact is required in a hurry, with new Heralds.

It's a bold theory, and not one I expect to see come to pass, but it's clear that Moash is being groomed as some kind of top tier lieutenant for Odium, so it puts him in the realm of powerful artifacts and may take him to the right place at the right time.

[bdoble97]

Man I didn't think I wanted any character killed more than kylo Ren after what he did in force awakens but this SOB Moash needs to die I a horrible painful death. If he dies at the hands of Kaladin it's going to be one of the most emotional heart-wrenching scenes in the whole series in my opinion

[Toaster Retribution]

14 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

The choice to have him immediately removed from Graves was brilliant.

I still wish Brandon would have kept him alive though. He was intriguing and I liked him. Before OB, I had one character in each of the three major Secret Societies whom I was really interested in. After OB, Mraize is the only one of them who still lives 

[bo.montier]

I guess Moash is fairly well written as a villain, since I just hate him. I want him to die; I actively root against him. Giving the bridge 4 salute after doing something explicitly against what Kaladin would have wanted, as if expressing personal loyalty to Kaladin, but doing the opposite of what he stood for. 

A lot of the other bad guys I want to lose, but I don't hate like I hate Moash. I want Mr. T to lose, in most ways. I want Nale to lose. But I find them interesting as characters and I want to see how it is done. 

Moash I want gone NOW, because I hate him so much.