[OB] Why there are only 9 unmade

[dantlee]

I know some people really like the “unmade were created each time a herald broke” theory, but it just doesn’t hold water. We have several woB, and a lot of textual evidence, confirming that there were more than 9 or 10 desolations before this one. Sorry to be the party pooper. 

[ScavellTane]

That's because we assume that the current 9 Unmade were the only ones ever created. Previous Unmade could have been destroyed somehow and that Odium could only ever have 9 Unmade at a time.

[Fulminato]

46 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

That's because we assume that the current 9 Unmade were the only ones ever created. Previous Unmade could have been destroyed somehow and that Odium could only ever have 9 Unmade at a time.

this it strike me to be an advanced mirror climb.

we don't have any evidence of this, but we had solid proof of the same unmade the radiant face and the unmade existing now. (at least re-shephir, ba-ado-mishram, moelach, sja-anat and dai-gonarthis)

[dantlee]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

That's because we assume that the current 9 Unmade were the only ones ever created. Previous Unmade could have been destroyed somehow and that Odium could only ever have 9 Unmade at a time.

You’re stretching pretty far for something we have a lot of evidence against. It was a nice theory, but post-OB WoB have pretty much dismissed the possibility. 

[ScavellTane]

Which WOBs? The voidspren could have came from splintered Unmade.

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

Which WOBs? The voidspren could have came from splintered Unmade.

your theory your Burden of proof.

because we had evidence against, but none in favor of it.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Fulminato

[dantlee]

I'm on incredibly crappy wifi right now so I was only able to do a quick search, but these two pretty definitively put an end to the idea that each unmade was created each time a herald broke. That theory depends fundamentally on the assumption that there were exactly 9 desolations prior to this one, and that each herald only broke once. 

 

Quote

 

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)
#2 Share

XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW]

Is each Herald only broken once for each Desolation, thus making there 9 Desolations, or are they broken multiple times?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are more than 9 Desolations.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)
#9 Share

 

CaptainRyan [PENDING REVIEW]

Prior to the death of Gavilar, had nine (9) Desolations occurred? If not, can you please share how many have happened?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No... but no.

 

 

 

Now, maybe there were more unmade that were destroyed as you suggest, but the in-text evidence overwhelmingly points to the current unmade being the very same ones that the forces fought against in every previous desolation. We have Nohadon referencing the same unmade as we've seen in the present day, and we've seen in multiple of Dalinar's visions, which are clearly taking place in different eras, the Knights Radiant referencing the same unmade that we see today. 

 

Again, I really don't like being the guy to shoot down creative theories, and I really liked the idea when I first saw it in the OB reaction thread. But upon further examination, there is just so much evidence against it that the theory is incredibly unlikely, and requires some serious mental gymnastics to try and get any part of it to work. 

#desolations

[Leyrann]

41 minutes ago, dantlee said:

I'm on incredibly crappy wifi right now so I was only able to do a quick search, but these two pretty definitively put an end to the idea that each unmade was created each time a herald broke. That theory depends fundamentally on the assumption that there were exactly 9 desolations prior to this one, and that each herald only broke once. 

 

 

 

Now, maybe there were more unmade that were destroyed as you suggest, but the in-text evidence overwhelmingly points to the current unmade being the very same ones that the forces fought against in every previous desolation. We have Nohadon referencing the same unmade as we've seen in the present day, and we've seen in multiple of Dalinar's visions, which are clearly taking place in different eras, the Knights Radiant referencing the same unmade that we see today. 

 

Again, I really don't like being the guy to shoot down creative theories, and I really liked the idea when I first saw it in the OB reaction thread. But upon further examination, there is just so much evidence against it that the theory is incredibly unlikely, and requires some serious mental gymnastics to try and get any part of it to work. 

#desolations

I'm just saying, I revived this thread literally by posting that WoB.

[dantlee]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Leyspren said:

I'm just saying, I revived this thread literally by posting that WoB.

Yeah, I'm arguing your side, against Scavell. He asked which WoB I was referencing that had shut down the idea that there were exactly 9 desolations prior to this one, so I posted two that pretty definitively end that discussion. 

[Leyrann]

Just now, dantlee said:

Yeah, I'm arguing your side, against Scavell. He asked which WoB I was referencing that had shut down the idea that there were exactly 9 desolations prior to this one, so I posted two that pretty definitively end that discussion. 

Yeah but, when I quoted that very WoB just five posts back, maybe you should just refer to it?

[dantlee]

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Leyspren said:

Yeah but, when I quoted that very WoB just five posts back, maybe you should just refer to it?

Um, sorry, I guess? I don't understand why you're upset about it - I'd already explained that my wifi was really crappy, and when I posted an hour ago I wasn't able to load previous pages of the thread. I also added another WoB that you hadn't quoted. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I don't have much to add commentary-wise, but I feel like this would be a good addition to have as a handy reference for the thread.

Quote

“Which one got to you, little child?” Ahu asked. “The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Faceless? Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls.”

“I have no idea what you’re talking about.”

“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled. “I used to think it wasn’t my fault. But you know, we can’t escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.”

Italics and bolding mine.

Is this just a reference to the Heralds relenting to the torture and allowing them out of Braize, or is it something more?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[insert_anagram_here]

On 11/20/2017 at 3:14 PM, PhineasGage said:

Ok I understand now. Essentially, I suppose I feel the same way about your theory as you do mine  Until we have more definitive proof one way or the other, we simply have to decide as individuals whether a theory "feels" right. 

Can I ask you to elaborate further perhaps on the importance of the relationship you are suggesting - for example, given that there are 9 unmade (not 10 as explicitly stated by BS) why is it do you suggest that Taln's return to Roshar has not resulted/will not result in the formation of another unmade? Do you have any suggestion for the mechanism for the creation of the Unmade? I'm not trying to nitpick so much as get a broader sense of the idea - then perhaps we may look for more evidence that relates to the Unmade.

On the other hand, Taravangian does explicitly say they are a deviation, and not worth our time!

Hey @PhineasGage good to see you here

I find it ironic that I independently came to the same conclusion of 9 Unmade linked to the 9 Heralds quitting the Oathpact, but it took me a mention of yours, to actually revisit it in my mind and find this thread. Your quote being in the ASK thread of course:

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

this one was the one that was kinda like a windrunner right?

 

I do not understand why people link the number of Desolations with the number of the Unmade though. If you dismiss that bit as irrelevant, it could still stand that the Unmade were made during the Desolations, along with the Heralds. Then 'unmade' by Aharietiam, when the Heralds broke their oath. That's why they are 9 in the first place.

As for the "The appearance of Midnight Essence was also a sign of an upcoming Desolation" from The Way of Kings chapter 19: that could potentially be The False Desolation instead of the original Desolations. The False one happened after Aharietiam (that's why it's The False) and that's actually when the first evidence occurs that The Unmade came into existence.

Quote

"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."

—Drawer 30-20, fourth emerald^[4

 

[ScavellTane]

18 hours ago, dantlee said:

Now, maybe there were more unmade that were destroyed as you suggest, but the in-text evidence overwhelmingly points to the current unmade being the very same ones that the forces fought against in every previous desolation. We have Nohadon referencing the same unmade as we've seen in the present day, and we've seen in multiple of Dalinar's visions, which are clearly taking place in different eras, the Knights Radiant referencing the same unmade that we see today. 

 

Again, I really don't like being the guy to shoot down creative theories, and I really liked the idea when I first saw it in the OB reaction thread. But upon further examination, there is just so much evidence against it that the theory is incredibly unlikely, and requires some serious mental gymnastics to try and get any part of it to work. 

#desolations

My understanding is that the conflict has essentially stagnated since The Last Desolation. Ever since the supposed abandoning of the Oathpact, no new development has occurred save for the Recreance. Our current earliest knowledge of the Unmade comes a little before that. (The gemstone archives)

If some of the Unmade have been active in Roshar since the Last Desolation, considering the Unmade's wide influence in a given area I would have thought that the KR would have exercised considerable efforts to neutralize them. Which is why I find it strange that the knowledge of trapping an Unmade was only discovered during the last days of Urithiru, which is a good 2500+ Rosharan years (according to Jasnah) after the Last Desolation. 

If the Unmade were created earlier in the Desolation cycle how is it that the problem they create were not solved earlier? Even after the Last Desolation, the Knights during their earlier years had ample time to solve the problem of the Unmade on Roshar without Odium's interruption. Why didn't/couldn't they? 

(Though this would support the Unmade manifesting due to the Heralds (Oathpact). If so how could they have been 'of Odium' then, he is on Braize already at the time?)

 

Side note: Could the Unmade have been created during the Last Desolation to counter the KR as an organized group specifically?

PS: Can't find where Nohadon mentions the Unmade. Jezerien did though.

PPS: I'm pretty sure I've got some theory holes here and there. (Re-shephirs' imprisonment/release, why the Unmade match the surges)

Edited December 4, 2017 by ScavellTane

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Hey @PhineasGage good to see you here

Ha - one good thing about the SS Shalladin is that she has excellent wifi so I can keep up with other theories unrelated to shipping whilst starving to death on the deck and looking for land.

So I just want to clear up what you said - are you suggesting that after Aharietiam that Odium made the Unmade and they then started doing things like the false desolations? I was under the impression that they pre-existed the last desolation but that they somehow changed (perhaps as a result of being separated in some form from Odium) and started doing things more of their own free will? So perhaps Bo-Ado-Mishram became more active to start the false desolation? Sorry, I'm just not surewhich way you are suggesting.

30 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

If the Unmade were created earlier in the Desolation cycle how is it that the problem they create were not solved earlier? Even after the Last Desolation, the Knights during their earlier years had ample time to solve the problem of the Unmade on Roshar without Odium's interruption. Why didn't/couldn't they? 

So I'm just spit-balling here but what about this;

We know spren "slumber" after they lose their bond to a person. What if the Unmade "slumbered" after Odium was banished each time. They started waking up as the walls around Odium's prison started to crack (ie as whichever herald that eventually breaks, starts breaking). That would make them nigh impossible to find between desolations and explain why nothing had been done about them. They also couldn't be dealt with during a desolation easily because of all the fused/voidbringers etc. The false desolation may have been a period that woke them up for some reason - perhaps Taln nearly gave way then but managed to strengthen his resolve in some way? Perhaps human activity sparked it (kinda like anthropogenic global warming in contrast with "normal climate change") so they woke up but without as many voidbringers around, plus more time since the last desolation, there had been time for scientific research into trapping spren. This mean the radiants had time, the resources, and a good reason to go after the unmade directly because they knew the Unmade were acting without Odium's direct interference. 

[insert_anagram_here]

4 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So I just want to clear up what you said - are you suggesting that after Aharietiam that Odium made the Unmade and they then started doing things like the false desolations? I was under the impression that they pre-existed the last desolation but that they somehow changed (perhaps as a result of being separated in some form from Odium) and started doing things more of their own free will? So perhaps Bo-Ado-Mishram became more active to start the false desolation? Sorry, I'm just not surewhich way you are suggesting.

41 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I'm not sure myself which way I'm suggesting, but I was thinking something along what the named spren are to Knights Radiants. Maybe the Made where the spren bonded to the Heralds? So they had an alliance with the Heralds, as a manifestation of Honour and/or Cultivation to grant power? Maybe in the form of the swords the Heralds used? But when the 9 Heralds abandoned the Oathpact and Talenel'Elin in the Desolation, the Made were left vulnerable for Odium to corrupt and take over. Then they were Unmade.

[PhineasGage]

5 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm not sure myself which way I'm suggesting, but I was thinking something along what the named spren are to Knights Radiants. Maybe the Made where the spren bonded to the Heralds? So they had an alliance with the Heralds, as a manifestation of Honour and/or Cultivation to grant power? Maybe in the form of the swords the Heralds used? But when the 9 Heralds abandoned the Oathpact and Talenel'Elin in the Desolation, the Made were left vulnerable for Odium to corrupt and take over. Then they were Unmade

Ok, that makes sense, they cant have been the honorblades, because those still exist and seem fully functional, but perhaps they were something else? Tho that would mean we would need some evidence of this which we don't have yet. This would kinda tie in with my mini-theory (on pg1 of this thread) that they were corrupted by Odium. I thought they were essentially just normal spren but you seem to be suggesting that they were more like god-spren that got corrupted. It certainly could work. We only have one other group that seems to have no other links to it and that is the 10 fools but I can't see a link to the Unmade with them

 

[Willow]

On 20-11-2017 at 5:50 AM, Subvisual Haze said:

I think they're corrupted versions of the Radiant spren.  The reason they have 9 members instead of 10 though is due to the Bondsmith spren being so unique and variant.

I think regardless of how and when the Unmade came to be, this is the most likely. We also have a new WoB now (pending review):

Quote

XS-Terrain
Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson
Kind of.

XS-Terrain
Ok. So there are 9 Unmade right, so I believe one Radiant Order is left out?

Brandon Sanderson
Bondsmith. But it’s not as one to one, there’s some fuzziness in there.

So while most of the Unmade kind of relate to one order, they don't match up 100%, which we've seen with Re-shephir for the Lightweavers, who did something that was similar, yet distinct. That makes me wonder what orders the other Unmade relate to,

On 19-11-2017 at 11:21 PM, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Yelignar would be associated with Skybreakers due to the swallowing of a smokestone. Just/confident. I don't have enough information to seperate Yelignar's influence from Amaram/Aesudan to properly disect this. 

I would pair Moelach with the truthwatchers for Learned/giving seems to fit nicely with the derivation of giving people images of the future as they die. Bondsmiths are another possibility, especially if Ishar is as mad as he seems to be, and pious guiding fits here. 

Ashertmarn I would pair with either Truthwatchers or Bondsmiths. Gluttony could be a derivation of either learned and giving or pious and guiding considering the context of him targeting the ardentia.

I am tempted to pair Ba-Ado-Misharm with the Windrunners simply because she was said to be a commander in the Mythica, and that is parallel with protecting/leading. Attacking/commanding.

Re-Shephir seems an obvious analog with Lightweavers, as she was captured by them, and seems to parallel their powers in some ways. Creativity and honesty is derived into imitating and misunderstanding.

Sja-Anat would be analogous with edgedancers. Loving and healing becomes corrupting and creating. The mythica page says her twisted creations are her beloved children. 

That only leaves the ninth unmade for the Willshapers. Dai-Gonarthis?

I don't quite agree with all of these, especially since we now know there's no Bondsmith analogue. I figured Yelig-nar would be the Windrunner Unmade, because of the 'Blightwind' title, but Skybreakers could work as well.

I also have the feeling that Ba-Ado-Mishram is more related to the Truthwatchers, simply because of the fact that it was a Truthwatcher who talked about her in the epigraphs, plus their closely related place to Bondsmiths on the Surgebinding overview, but on the other hand (also pending review):

Quote

Brandon Sanderson
That is a function of Windrunners being very close to Bondsmiths, which has certain effects.

So either is an option, I guess? That leaves Ashertmarn, Moelach, Nergaoul, Chemoarish, Dai-gonarthis and Sja-anat (so basically all of them).

I didn't see you mention Nergaoul, so I'm just going to guess that he might be an interesting analogue for either the Windrunners and the Stonewards. Both these frontline orders focus on protecting and standing your ground respectively, so the Thrill almost seems like a negative inversion or a corruption of those ideals.

And based on the name, Chemoarish might be connected to the Releasers (and might be why they don't like being called Dustbringers, since it's basically Dustmother + Voidbringers).

Ashertmarn (mindless, hedonism) almost seems like a complete inversion of the Elsecaller ideals (intelligence, logic, control), but I'm not sure if we're looking for complete inversions, or simply 'corrupted versions' when connecting the Unmade to the orders.

Dai-gonarthis could also be a Skybreaker analogue, since apparently he might be responsible for the destruction of Aimia? It's destructive, and I think a lot of the other people see it as some form of justice (the Scouring)

Sja-anat and the Edgedancers seems like it could be logical.

So some guesses, based on my musings:

Windrunners - Yelig-nar or Ba-Ado-Mishram?
Skybreakers - Dai-gonarthis or Yelig-nar?
Dustbringers - Chemoarish
Edgedancers - Sja-anat
Truthwatchers - Ba-Ado-Mishram or Moelach?
Lightweavers  - Re-shephir
Elsecallers - Ashertmarn
Willshapers - who knows, really.
Stonewards - Nergaoul

Edited December 4, 2017 by Willow

[ScavellTane]

Loose connections:

Dai-gonarthis <> Aimia <> Soulcaster fabrial <> Willshaper (Divine Attribute: Builder)

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

they cant have been the honorblades, because those still exist and seem fully functional

Given the chance that "9 Unmade are 9 Herald named spren" is true, even if the honorblades are fully functional and grant full powers, it doesn't mean that spren still reside in them. There could be leftover power in the blades after they've been abandoned. I'm also wondering whether breaking that strong bond could've been a catalyst in driving the Heralds mad.

Odium could've granted them 'freedom' to the near-death Made and in exchange they gave him control.

So unless we see how an honourblade manifests in Shadesmar or more about the Shen who possess most of them, we can't tell if they are linked or not.