[OB] Why there are only 9 unmade

[DiamondMind]

@Fifth of Daybreak I had a similar idea regarding the Unmade but different reasoning approaching it. Since Shallan describes Re-Shephir as a twisted creationspren, I thought to look at the Unmade as how they might be a subversion of an order, not just it's opposite. Here's what I came up with in another thread:

Spoiler

 

Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, is of course connected to creationspren and the Lightweavers. She copies true things to create lies, where Lightweavers find truth among lies.

Yelig-nar, Blightwind, seems to be linked to the Skybreakers as it is contained in a smokestone. I previously thought it would be the Windrunners, especially since it collects souls, but the smokestone seems too significant.

Moelach is the Unmade most powerful in regard to precognition, so the Truthwatchers. It does creepily seem to imply that its purpose it to give untruths and so mislead, which doesn't bode well for Taravangian.

Sja-Anat corrupts spren and perhaps other things as well. Maybe related to cultivationspren, which seek to grow things and realize their potential, and so the Edgedancers. This would also put her in opposition to Edgedancers oaths of finding those ignored/forgotten and presumably helping them.

Nergaoul creates the Thrill, which drives people berserk and corrupts their reason. Ashertmarn, Heart of the Revel, causes debauchery, which seems like a similar excess but in a different direction. I would tentatively put Stonewards as opposite Nergaoul because of their prowess in battle, and so Elsecallers, paragons of logic, as opposite Ashermarn. However, Dalinar is the one who captured Nergaoul, and it's possible only the order closest to the Unmade can capture it.

Bo-Ado-Mishram is the commander of the singer armies and has formed a Connection with them in the absence of Odium, allowing her to provide them with Voidlight and forms of power. She seems like a good fit to be opposite to the Windrunners.

Chemoarish, the Dustmother, seems obvious to be opposite the Dustbringers, even though we know nothing about her.

Dai-gonarthis, the Black Fischer, we have next to know information on. It "consumes sorrow" might have caused the Scouring of Aimia. The only orders left are the Willshapers and the Bondsmiths, but there's no information to differentiate. 

 

 

[Subvisual Haze]

I think they're corrupted versions of the Radiant spren.  The reason they have 9 members instead of 10 though is due to the Bondsmith spren being so unique and variant.

[Steeldancer]

My theory went kaput so I have no explanation. 

[Leyrann]

10 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

When a Herald 'breaks' I think it is the same process by which he was attempting to make Odium his champion, or Amaram. He was trying to get them to give up their emotions into the void.

Then why does Ash still feel so much self-loathing? She clearly hasn't given up her emotions, and the same seems to be the case for Kalak and Jezrien in the prelude. Both of them have trouble making the decision to abandon the Oathpact. I would think they'd just be like "eh **** it" if they'd given up their emotions.

10 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I also then would subscribe to the theory that they are matched to the Heralds, which can be viewed to satisfy the WoB about the Diagram, that they are not analogous, but rather, derivative.

I disagree. If they're derivative, they're analogus.

Quote

 

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the number of Unmade fixed?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Argent (paraphrased)

Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

 

This WoB is also very much not in favour of the theory, as Brandon straight out says the number of Unmade is fixed. No but's, no if's, it's fixed. So it's always been fixed. If Unmade formed out of Heralds breaking, he'd have said no (unless he'd RAFO it of course).

 

And lastly I just disagree with the notion that the 'breaking' of the Heralds is literal. We're talking about their minds breaking due to torture, just like happens to 'normal' humans. Additionally - again - it wouldn't fit the information we got in Oathbringer that the Desolations kept happening closer and closer together, with Aharietam happening but a year after the Desolation before that, but the first Desolations having hundreds of years of peace in between. Why would it first take like, three hundred years, for the first Herald to break, while the next ones would continually break faster and the eighth and ninth breaking just a year apart? That would imply that there was one weak Herald (relatively), then one quite a bit stronger, one stronger, one a little bit stronger, one a tiny bit stronger, etc. If a new Herald would have to break for each new Desolation, the timespan between Desolations would be much more random than it is said to be in Oathbringer. And most of all it wouldn't make sense that it would then take four and half a millenium until Taln would - or would not even? - break. Yes, I agree that he'll be much stronger than the other Heralds, but it again goes against the "Desolations continued to happen closer and closer to one another" statement. Once a Herald willingly gave in to the Torture and went back, they'd all go back and the Desolation would start. Not a new Herald, but simply a Herald. It was just never Taln, because he could endure so much more than the others.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Leyrann

[Fifth of Daybreak]

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Then why does Ash still feel so much self-loathing? She clearly hasn't given up her emotions, and the same seems to be the case for Kalak and Jezrien in the prelude. Both of them have trouble making the decision to abandon the Oathpact. I would think they'd just be like "eh **** it" if they'd given up their emotions.

"I feel like we're getting worse" implies that the effect has varying degrees of efficacy. Ash could be one of the more recent Heralds to break. There's obviously still some degree of emotion left to people, look at Moash, who still displays regular emotion even when he's numb.

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

I disagree. If they're derivative, they're analogus.

Derivative-imitative of the work of another person, and usually disapproved of for that reason.

analogous-comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.

Brandon: "There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same."

You're not really making a cogent argument against my point here.

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

So it's always been fixed.

This statement directly contradicts the "we were made, then unmade." If it was always fixed, they couldn't have been made, they always existed, they can't be splinters of Odium, which is not possible. This point is self-contradictory. Your definition of fixed is far too rigid.

 

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Why would it first take like, three hundred years, for the first Herald to break, while the next ones would continually break faster and the eighth and ninth breaking just a year apart?

They go to Braize and the Heralds that have broken have already given up their pain from the torture, making the burden worse for the rest of them. Without all ten, the remaining Heralds successively succumbed more quickly. One Odium has taken their pain, they can't take it back and can't share the burden anymore, making it that much harder for other Heralds. There's nothing definitive in the evidence that disproves what I'm saying or supports yours. In my view, it makes more sense that the breaking is a process of elimination rather than "for some strange reason it wasn't the same herald who broke every time, the other Heralds progressively got weaker then the one who broke before them causing the desolations to get closer together. That has no Logical basis for me to look at and understand.

[Leyrann]

5 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Derivative-imitative of the work of another person, and usually disapproved of for that reason.

analogous-comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.

Brandon: "There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same."

You're not really making a cogent argument against my point here.

I am. Yes, derivative and analogous are different words with different meanings, but if something is derived from something else, it is by definition comparable - or analogous.

7 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

This statement directly contradicts the "we were made, then unmade." If it was always fixed, they couldn't have been made, they always existed, they can't be splinters of Odium, which is not possible. This point is self-contradictory. Your definition of fixed is far too rigid.

Yeah of course I am not trying to say they predate Adonalsium's Shattering or something like that. The thing is, if they were made one at a time, their number wouldn't be fixed, while if they were made all at the same time, their number would have been fixed. That's what I meant.

8 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

They go to Braize and the Heralds that have broken have already given up their pain from the torture, making the burden worse for the rest of them. Without all ten, the remaining Heralds successively succumbed more quickly. One Odium has taken their pain, they can't take it back and can't share the burden anymore, making it that much harder for other Heralds. There's nothing definitive in the evidence that disproves what I'm saying or supports yours. In my view, it makes more sense that the breaking is a process of elimination rather than "for some strange reason it wasn't the same herald who broke every time, the other Heralds progressively got weaker then the one who broke before them causing the desolations to get closer together. That has no Logical basis for me to look at and understand.

Let's stop calling it "breaking". The only use of "broken" in reference to the Heralds is in the prelude, where Kalak sees a broken man in Jezrien's eyes, after realizing he himself is also a broken man.

Heralds didn't break when a Desolation started. They willingly returned to Roshar to stop the torture, and that is what caused a Desolation to start. It's similar, but it's by no means the same. And once you look at it as "returning to Roshar to stop the torture", rather than "breaking", then the whole theory makes no sense anymore.

It's also a very simple case of Occam's Razor. We have no reason to assume there have been exactly 9 Desolations (in fact arguments can be made that there have most likely been more than that, though I will admit they are not conclusive) and there is no reason to assume a relationship between the Heralds and the Unmade, other than that one Herald hasn't broken yet and that there happen to be an equal number of Unmades. Remember, 9 is Odium's number. Why would the 9 Unmade be a coincidence that happened to agree with the amount of broken Heralds, when Odium is working with the number 9 anyways? 

If there's reason to assume that this theory is true, then I'll start believing in it, but right now, there really isn't anything substantial, and I don't see why I would go for such a convoluted explanation when a simple "9 is Odium's number, hence 9 Unmade" also fits.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

2 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

am. Yes, derivative and analogous are different words with different meanings, but if something is derived from something else, it is by definition comparable - or analogous.

 

3 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

and there is no reason to assume a relationship between the Heralds and the Unmade, other than that one Herald hasn't broken yet and that there happen to be an equal number of Unmades.

I'm going to quote this WoB for the third time. This is why I said you didn't make a cogent argument. You described my point without ever contradicting the thesis. 

Quote

Questioner

Are the Unmade the analogs to Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are.

Footnote: In the epigraph for WoR 81 the Diagram says "The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however."

 

[ScavellTane]

So the Unmade are an accident? They were not Un-made on purpose?

Edited November 20, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Leyrann]

In my opinion, the bolded part is very important.

Quote

Questioner

Are the Unmade the analogs to Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are.

Footnote: In the epigraph for WoR 81 the Diagram says "The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however."

Would "pieces of the Heralds" not by definition make it a one-to-one correlation?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Leyrann
I hate how this site messes up formatting that looks fine while typing it out...

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

Why would the 9 Unmade be a coincidence that happened to agree with the amount of broken Heralds, when Odium is working with the number 9 anyways? 

Ok, so I agree with you on most of your post - as I too, don't see a specific reason to connect the Heralds (who weren't spren bonded) to be directly linked to the Unmade, but I do want to disagree on this point you made - Do we know that 9 is the number of Odium and therefore he made 9 Unmade, or has the number been ascribed to him by people on Roshar because he made 9 Unmade and had seemingly 9 orders of voidbinders? I don't remember any particular references to 9 being an unholy number on Sel for example - which is the only other world we've seen Odium's direct influence.

4 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are.

This doesn't mean they are directly linked. I mean they are obviously linked on a minor level because they are on Roshar but that doesnt have to mean that they are direct correlates. 

Why not consider perhaps that the aim of the Heralds is to prevent a desolation, and the point of the Unmade is to start one? We don't know the exact mechanism of how desolations started - we know each time Herald agreed to start a desolation so that they could avoid the pain of their torture, but we don't know whether events on Roshar affected the way the torture happened. It is implied for example, that Ishar beieves that Surgebinders had a potentially causative role in desolations. Now WoB is not to trust anything a Herald says, but that doesn't mean that other things on Roshar can't have an impact - what if the amount of torture directly related to the number of souls bound on Braize for example- could something like Moelach be trapping souls as they leave the physical plane? We know he touches them, but don't know what effect that has. What if those cognitive shadows were trapped like the spren of the fused and this gradually led to worsening torture? Ok so I'm very much spitballing, but my point is that the Unmade and the Heralds can easily be analogous without having to be directly linked.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

47 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

In my opinion, the bolded part is very important.

This is cherry picking. If you think the selection is important, it has to be as a whole thought, as he's qualifying the statement you've bolded. .

 

47 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Would "pieces of the Heralds" not by definition make it a one-to-one correlation?

The full thought is "they aren't a one to one correlation, they aren't exactly the same." This still leaves Brandon stating, essentially, 'the unmade aren't analogs of the Heralds they're deviations.'  I've laid out specific arguments for the nature of those deviations and the one-to-one is also satisfied by 9 unmade and one champion, as that's not a one-to-one correlation between unmade and Heralds where they are exactly the same.

This is also a direct contradiction of your claim that we have no evidence of a relationship between the Heralds and the unmade.

 

(I do apologize for using derivative in my earlier posts. That was a transcription mistake and I take full responsibility.) 

 

38 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Why not consider perhaps that the aim of the Heralds is to prevent a desolation, and the point of the Unmade is to start one

There doesn't seem to be much of a reason for the Unmade to remain on Roshar without a ton of supposition for each unmade. 

 

38 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

the Unmade and the Heralds can easily be analogous without having to be directly linked.

But they cannot be considered analogous while at the same time operating under the impression we have no evidence of a relationship between them, which is where I took the most umbrage with Leyrann's reply. For your defense yesterday, I didn't reply because I didn't see any obvious contradictions in your logic. Too much supposition to win my support over, but it's well founded enough I respect your position and see no need to test it further without more information available at this time.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[PhineasGage]

18 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

But they cannot be considered analogous while at the same time operating under the impression we have no evidence of a relationship between them, 

I am not sure I completely understand your point - perhaps I've misunderstood your entire premise and if so, I do apologise. I feel like the symmetry aspect of Roshar/the SA books is very important but symmetry does not inherently have to come from a direct link. In another thread, I commented on the symmetry of the Navani/Dalinar wedding vs the Adolin/Shallan wedding. These are analogues in that they are both weddings but they are not inherently related - one does not have to occur for the other one to exist. Whilst I do, of course, have my own pet theory, I agree it is full of suppositions and thus has few supporting facts. The issue here is that we also cannot assume a direct link between the Heralds and the Unmade. That doesn't mean there is no direct link, but at the same time, I do not think we've seen good evidence (nb WoB is not always canon - he occasionally makes mistakes/is unclear - only the books are canon because they get properly proofed in a way his verbal answers can't be) that there is any direct link.

At this point - 2-3 years before the next book in the cycle supposition is necessary and makes us come up with all kinds of theories that have to rely on some supposition. Ideally though, it would be worth going through the books to see if we have any evidence again. The best evidence I could immediately think of for Heralds and unmade being linked would likely come from physical location on Roshar - but I'm not sure we know enough of either groups movement to be able to spot a pattern. So we (for example) know if there is an Unmade in Tukar (where Ishar is) or whether a Herald moves and Moelach follows? Perhaps you've got some different examples? 

[Leyrann]

Eh, I'm not convinced. I still think it's too convoluted when 9 is already Odium's number.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

25 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Iperhaps I've misunderstood your entire premise and if so, I do apologise. I feel like the symmetry aspect of Roshar/the SA books is very important but symmetry does not inherently have to come from a direct link

I think it might be an issue of semantics more than anything. Are you looking at 'relationship' and 'direct link' as completely synonymous? What I'm trying to say, is that I do agree that the WoB does not provide concrete evidence of a direct "the Heralds are the causality for the Unamde" link, but I am interpreting it that way for my specific theory. That being said, Brandon's statement paraphrased to 'the unmade are not analogs of the Heralds but deviations of them' implies a relationship of some sort, whether their creation was modeled after them in some way, as a response to them, or some other tangential relationship. While there is not definitive proof of 'H caused U' there is proof that "H is in some way, shape or form related to U."

25 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

At this point - 2-3 years before the next book in the cycle supposition is necessary and makes us come up with all kinds of theories that have to rely on some supposition. Ideally though, it would be worth going through the books to see if we have any evidence again.

Let me clarify here, I'm not trying to imply that your logic is flimsy because of the supposition. Rather, I just wanted to show that you have argued your side well enough that I have no real complaints left that rely on hard evidence. I just want to verbalize I'm choosing not to argue against it not because I'm convinced you're wrong and don't see the point in continuing to discuss; I just don't feel as though I can contribute anything more to the conversation that will either contribute to the the theory or take away from it. 

Mystatement on the supposition was just to clarify that your arguments weren't quite enough to win me over to your side. Essentially, I've heard your argument and I see its merits, and while I don't accept it personally, I also don't see any concrete evidence that says it's implausible or unlikely and I think you've got a sound basis for your theory for what knowledge we have. 

28 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Eh, I'm not convinced. I still think it's too convoluted when 9 is already Odium's number.

I'm happy to agree to disagree. 

I also, belatedly, realize I was a little grouchy waking up this morning and some of that bled into my reply. That's unfair to you and I apologize.

[PhineasGage]

2 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I think it might be an issue of semantics more than anything. Are you looking at 'relationship' and 'direct link' as completely synonymous? What I'm trying to say, is that I do agree that the WoB does not provide concrete evidence of a direct "the Heralds are the causality for the Unamde" link, but I am interpreting it that way for my specific theory. That being said, Brandon's statement paraphrased to 'the unmade are not analogs of the Heralds but deviations of them' implies a relationship of some sort, whether their creation was modeled after them in some way, as a response to them, or some other tangential relationship. While there is not definitive proof of 'H caused U' there is proof that "H is in some way, shape or form related to U.

Ok I understand now. Essentially, I suppose I feel the same way about your theory as you do mine  Until we have more definitive proof one way or the other, we simply have to decide as individuals whether a theory "feels" right. 

Can I ask you to elaborate further perhaps on the importance of the relationship you are suggesting - for example, given that there are 9 unmade (not 10 as explicitly stated by BS) why is it do you suggest that Taln's return to Roshar has not resulted/will not result in the formation of another unmade? Do you have any suggestion for the mechanism for the creation of the Unmade? I'm not trying to nitpick so much as get a broader sense of the idea - then perhaps we may look for more evidence that relates to the Unmade.

On the other hand, Taravangian does explicitly say they are a deviation, and not worth our time!

[ScavellTane]

Perhaps the Unmade is created when Odium is sent to Braize..

If the Unmade are created one after another, after each Desolation, it would explain the degree of sentience displayed by them as the older ones would be more aware and the younger ones would be more mindless.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

16 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

why is it do you suggest that Taln's return to Roshar has not resulted/will not result in the formation of another unmade? Do you have any suggestion for the mechanism for the creation of the Unmade?

It's all supposition, but basically, I look at it like this. We know the basics of how it works from the stormfather. Spoiler for length.

Spoiler

I LONG BLAMED THEM, the Stormfather said, FOR THEIR LACK OF HONOR. IT IS … DIFFICULT FOR ME TO LOOK PAST OATHS BROKEN. I HATED THEM. NOW, THE MORE I COME TO KNOW MEN, THE MORE I SEE HONOR IN THOSE POOR CREATURES YOU NAME HERALDS.

“Tell me what happened,” Dalinar said. “What really happened?” 

AREYOU READY FOR THIS STORY? THERE ARE PARTS YOU WILL NOT LIKE.

“If I have accepted that God is dead, I can accept the fall of his Heralds.” 

Navanisettled down on a nearby stone, face pale. 

ITSTARTED WITH THE CREATURES YOU NAME VOIDBRINGERS, the Stormfather said, voice rumbling and low, distant. Introspective? AS I SAID, MY VIEW OF THESE EVENTS IS DISTORTED. I DO REMEMBER THAT ONCE, LONG BEFORE THE DAY YOU’RE SEEING NOW, THERE WERE MANY SOULS OF CREATURES WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN, ANGRY AND TERRIBLE. THEY HAD BEEN GIVEN GREAT POWER BY THE ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED ODIUM. THAT WAS THE BEGINNING, THE START OF DESOLATIONS. FOR WHEN THESE DIED, THEY REFUSED TO PASS ON.

“That’s what is happening now,” Dalinar said. “The parshmen, they’re transformed by these things in the Everstorm. Those things are…” He swallowed. “The souls of their dead?” 

THEYARE THE SPREN OF PARSHMEN LONG DEAD. THEY ARE THEIR KINGS, THEIR LIGHTEYES, THEIR VALIANT SOLDIERS FROM LONG, LONG AGO. THE PROCESS IS NOT EASY ON THEM. SOME OF THESE SPREN ARE MERE FORCES NOW, ANIMALISTIC, FRAGMENTS OF MINDS GIVEN POWER BY ODIUM. OTHERS ARE MORE … AWAKE. EACH REBIRTH FURTHER INJURES THEIR MINDS. 

THEYARE REBORN USING THE BODIES OF PARSHMEN TO BECOME THE FUSED. AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND THE SURGES, MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM. HUMANS COULD NEVER WIN WHEN THE CREATURES THEY KILLED WERE REBORN EACH TIME THEY WERE SLAIN. AND SO, THE OATHPACT.

“Ten people,” Dalinar said. “Five male, five female.” He looked at the swords. “They stopped this?” 

THEYGAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

“He was like a spren himself,” Dalinar said. “You told me before—Odium too.”

HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL. THE TEN HERALDS WERE SEALED UPON DAMNATION, TRAPPING THE VOIDBRINGERS THERE. HOWEVER, IF ANY ONE OF THE TEN AGREED TO BEND HIS OATH AND LET VOIDBRINGERS PAST, IT OPENED A FLOOD. THEY COULD ALL RETURN.

“And that started a Desolation,” Dalinar said.

THAT STARTED A DESOLATION, the Stormfather agreed. 

Anoath that could be bent, a pact that could be undermined. Dalinar could see what had happened. It seemed so obvious.

“They were tortured, weren’t they?”

HORRIBLY, BY THE SPIRITS THEY TRAPPED. THEY COULD SHARE THE PAIN BECAUSE OF THEIR BOND—BUT EVENTUALLY, SOMEONE ALWAYS YIELDED. 

ONCEONE BROKE, ALL TEN HERALDS RETURNED TO ROSHAR. THEY FOUGHT. THEY LED MEN. THEIR OATHPACT DELAYED THE FUSED FROM RETURNING IMMEDIATELY, BUT EACH TIME AFTER A DESOLATION, THE HERALDS RETURNED TO DAMNATION TO SEAL THE ENEMY AGAIN. TO HIDE, FIGHT, AND FINALLY WITHSTAND TOGETHER. THE CYCLE REPEATED. AT FIRST THE RESPITE BETWEEN DESOLATIONS WAS LONG. HUNDREDS OF YEARS. NEAR THE END, DESOLATIONS CAME SEPARATED BY FEWER THAN TEN YEARS. THERE WAS LESS THAN ONE YEAR BETWEEN THE LAST TWO. THE SOULS OF THE HERALDS HAD WORN THIN. THEY BROKE ALMOST AS SOON AS THEY WERE CAUGHT AND TORTURED IN DAMNATION.

“Which explains why things look so bad this time,” Navani whispered from her seat. “Society had suffered Desolation after Desolation, separated by short intervals. Culture, technology … all broken.” Dalinar knelt and rubbed her shoulder.

“It is not so bad as I feared,” she said. “The Heralds, they were honorable. Perhaps not as divine, but I may even like them more, to know they were once just normal men and women.”

THEY WERE BROKEN PEOPLE, the Stormfather said. BUT I CAN START TO FORGIVE THEM, AND THEIR SHATTERED OATHS. IT MAKES … SENSE TO ME NOW AS IT NEVER DID BEFORE. He sounded surprised.

...

AFTER EACH DESOLATION, THE HERALDS RETURNED TO DAMNATION, the Stormfather said. IF THEY DIED IN THE FIGHTING, THEY WENT THERE AUTOMATICALLY. AND THOSE WHO SURVIVED WENT BACK WILLINGLY AT THE END. THEY HAD BEEN WARNED THAT IF ANY LINGERED, IT COULD LEAD TO DISASTER. BESIDES, THEY NEEDED TO BE TOGETHER, IN DAMNATION, TO SHARE THE BURDEN OF TORTURE IF ONE WAS CAPTURED. BUT THIS TIME, AN ODDITY OCCURRED. THROUGH COWARDICE OR LUCK, THEY AVOIDED DEATH. NONE WERE KILLED IN BATTLE—EXCEPT ONE. 

Dalinarlooked to the open spot in the ring. 

THE NINE REALIZED, the Stormfather said, THAT ONE OF THEM HAD NEVER BROKEN. EACH OF THE OTHERS, AT SOME POINT, HAD BEEN THE ONE TO GIVE IN, TO START THE DESOLATION TO ESCAPE THE PAIN. THEY DETERMINED THAT PERHAPS THEY DIDN’T ALL NEED TO RETURN. THEY DECIDED TO STAY HERE, RISKING AN ETERNAL DESOLATION, BUT HOPING THAT THE ONE THEY LEFT IN DAMNATION WOULD ALONE BE ENOUGH TO HOLD IT ALL TOGETHER. THE ONE WHO WASN’T MEANT TO HAVE JOINED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE ONE WHO WAS NOT A KING, SCHOLAR, OR GENERAL.

“Talenelat,” Dalinar said. 

THEBEARER OF AGONIES. THE ONE ABANDONED IN DAMNATION. LEFT TO WITHSTAND THE TORTURES ALONE.

@Leyrann I want to point out that 'broken' is used three times here in the only direct description we have of the process, contrary to your claim that broken is only ever used in the prologue by Kalak. The Stormfather refers to all of the Heralds as broken.

@PhineasGage So, as I see it, the Heralds return to Braize to contain the Voidbringers and they start to get tortured. Odium starts to do his same speech he gives to Dalinar to the Heralds.

"You're not alone. Let go. Give your pain to me."

In doing so, it's actually giving him permission to remove a splinter from their soul, specifically the portion that allows that pain and the passion to endure it. This is then merged with a splinter of Odium's power and endowed onto a spren, my best guess a lesser spren of each order, such as a creation spren for Re-Shephir as we already have evidence for.

Taln is a special case though. Taln not only survived all the torture the other Heralds couldn't bear together, he survived ten times the torture for millennia. That's mad respect right there. We know he holds a grudge.

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None of the other temples had fared this poorly. It was as if Odium had a grudge against this one in particular.

Talenelat, Dalinar thought. He was the one they abandoned. The one I lost …

Odium understands the power of that, and wouldn't want to waste it on a spren, instead, he would want to infuse that power into his first immortal human champion. His first human fused, which was supposed to be Dalinar. Had Dalinar given up his pain, it would have created the necessary crack in his spiritweb for Odium to exploit and turn him into a fused.

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“You spoke of the Parshendi,”Dalinar said. “This has to do with the red eyes?”

Rlain nodded. “What does it mean, soldier?”Dalinar asked.

“It means our gods have returned,”Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?”

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.”

So if Dalinar had given of himself here, he could have been endowed in the same way both the fused and the unmade were, creating an immortal spren-like being who could inhabit the body of willing Odium bound humans on death through the everstorm combining a deviation of the most stalwart and dependable Herald with the most devastating military commander and force Roshar has ever seen.

[Fulminato]

odium is tied to the passion. hatred foremost, but any other emotion give him strenght.

my opinion is the unmade are the primeval spren of the emotion.they are more conceptually close to the 'seven sin':  the thrill of contest (Nergaoul), the pain of death (Moelach), the ecces of the gluttony (Ashertmarn), the fear of corruption (Sja-anat), the hatret of killing (Re-Shephir), the sorrow of lost (Dai-Gonarthis)

23 hours ago, humanchaos said:

Re-Shephir (Midnight Mother): Responsible for the monsters attacking the village in one of Danlinar's visions. Also for the copycat murders in Urithiru. Confronted and scared away by Shallan, and has some kind of weakness for lightweavers, evident in the fact that it had previously been captured and trapped by one in the past

dalinar in the end of the book can cage Nergaoul because he know the spren (the thrill) very well. in the moment shallan touch the unmade she think can 'nearly' understand her.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Fulminato

[DiamondMind]

Something I just realized is that the Heralds had to be caught upon their return to Braize, and the torture didn't start immediately. When one was caught, the rest shared the torture with him/her. In addition, it seems the Oathpact was not being given Honorblades to fight the Fused, but to give up their humanity to seal the fused on Braize. It was that bond with Honor that gave them power, and the bending of that oath that allowed the Fused to return.

[Egomere]

Well we really don't know alot about Braize yet and how the oathpact was worked (technically we do but not the physical / method of enforcement.

I think there was a Words of Brandon when he said that Braize was kind of like a prison planet. So if the heralds had to be caught I imagine that means they arrived then had to avoid Odium's wardens or similar (if indeed Odium was the governor and not just crime boss inmate...)

[Nienneh]

Just throwing this in here. Yelig-nar makes his host grow amethyst ridges. This gem is related to metal as well as the herald kalak, if I am not mistaken. A possible connection there maybe?

[A Dopey Spren]

Sja-anat states that the Unmade were made, then Unmade. 

Like the first post, I am wondering if the nine Unmade are similar to the Stormfather, but they were corrupted, and he held out. Odium' influence corrupted them and thus they became twisted and evil (although we find out some don't want that to be the case). 

What if the Unmade were 'made' (just as the Stormfather was created), but then Odium's influence changed them, thus they became 'unmade'.

Let me know!

[Leyrann]

So uhm, to return to the idea of "every Desolation was caused by a new Herald breaking" and "every Herald breaking spawned an Unmade", we got this WoB now:

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CaptainRyan [PENDING REVIEW]

Prior to the death of Gavilar, had nine (9) Desolations occurred? If not, can you please share how many have happened?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No... but no.

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Ookla the Leyspren

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Leyspren said:

So uhm, to return to the idea of "every Desolation was caused by a new Herald breaking" and "every Herald breaking spawned an Unmade", we got this WoB now:

 

Well, there goes the neighborhood! 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Leuthie]

I'm on my phone, so quoting WOB isn't going to happen...

We have WOB that Unmade are splinters of Odium.  We have a quote from an Unmade that they were "made and then unmade".

How about Odium made each of these super spren based on his favorite Hate creating human emotions.  Made.

Odium was then trapped on Braize by H&C and his splinter babies were heavily impacted.  Unmade

At this point, they're just floating splinters of hate that Odium has some control over.  At least one is possibly defecting, and they present challenges to our protagonists, but they aren't a huge player in the greater scheme of things, per the Diagram.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Leuthie