[OB] Kaladin's love life ?

[Razrback16]

On 11/24/2018 at 0:14 PM, Gasper said:

Given that this is a Sanderson series, I expect a lot of twists. As far as Kaladin getting hitched, well, that will be interesting. I think the most likely person is either Jasnah or a character that will be introduced in the next book. Despite her meddling, Syl is right, Kaladin needs someone. But not for the reasons you might think. He is a high ranking Lighteyes with land holdings, he also has spent time around Shallan, who is now a Kholin. He also works with women in Bridge Four. In order to not have someone like Ialai Sadeas use that as a weapon, he needs to get married soon. He is not a political person, which means he needs someone political to balance out his shortcomings in that area. Also remember that for all his maturity, he is a twenty one year old man, which means rash decision making and potentially dangerous actions.

Ya, I agree with a lot of this -

* I like the idea of Jasnah & Kaladin - I think they can help each other quite a bit as each one possesses strengths that are weaknesses for the other.

* I also agree with your suggestion on political marriage - I wouldn't be surprised to see this be the direction Kaladin & Jasnah are taken in. Kaladin will not like it initially, after all he doesn't seem to like Jasnah much outside of seeming to find her physically attractive, but that's a key reason I think it would be an interesting romance arc to follow - Kaladin needs to learn to not care quite as much as he does as at this point it's basically a fault for him. And Jasnah needs to learn to care a little more (she made progress at the end of OB with Renarin), and she may need Kaladin's help in dealing with her subjects given her cold / hard demeanor.

* I've also enjoyed the Syl interactions like you mentioned, that would be my #2 option right now, but I am also curious to see what Tarah is all about when we finally get to meet her.

[Void89]

Don't know - I feel like there is more to come. The ending of oathbringer was very weak and felt cheap. And Sanderson is a brilliant author who usually doesn't take the easy way out. At least not like that.

There are several issues unresolved and Sanderson just ends the whole Adolin, Shallan, Kaladin stuff with "yeah he's good for me I guess I'll marry him" and "yeah she's just somebody I needed at this very moment - nothing more" uhm... yeah... sure... because why not...

If this was any other author who doesn't have 300 clues hidden in plain sight and 400 Easter eggs in 150 words I'd probably go with it and tell myself - well screw it - obviously he didn't really had a plan where this was going and is trying to end it before it gets out of hand...

But Sanderson, really...? Come on... not like that - definitely not like that.

I don't really care who kaladin ends up with because I trust the author that he will come up with something good, regardless if we like it or not - it will be good.

And the end of OB with that triangle resolve was easy not good - so it can't be the end - easy as that

[Razrback16]

2 hours ago, Void89 said:

Don't know - I feel like there is more to come. The ending of oathbringer was very weak and felt cheap. And Sanderson is a brilliant author who usually doesn't take the easy way out. At least not like that.

There are several issues unresolved and Sanderson just ends the whole Adolin, Shallan, Kaladin stuff with "yeah he's good for me I guess I'll marry him" and "yeah she's just somebody I needed at this very moment - nothing more" uhm... yeah... sure... because why not...

If this was any other author who doesn't have 300 clues hidden in plain sight and 400 Easter eggs in 150 words I'd probably go with it and tell myself - well screw it - obviously he didn't really had a plan where this was going and is trying to end it before it gets out of hand...

But Sanderson, really...? Come on... not like that - definitely not like that.

I don't really care who kaladin ends up with because I trust the author that he will come up with something good, regardless if we like it or not - it will be good.

And the end of OB with that triangle resolve was easy not good - so it can't be the end - easy as that

Were you disappointed in that just because you were a Shalladin shipper or you just felt the way that love triangle was wrapped up was "unbelievable"?

Originally I was a big Shalladin fan, but I've come to not really enjoy Shallan's character anymore - I find her quite annoying in general so I was pretty happy when it appeared he closed out that love triangle. I'm hoping Kaladin will run into Tarah at some point so we can figure that out, and then I'd ultimately like to see Jasnah & Kaladin develop something.

[Kon-Tiki]

I find Jasnah and Kaladin so... unlikely. Jasnah is obsessed with dynasty. (For evidence, look at her assassinations and counter-assassinations, and at her reasoning when preparing to kill Renarin. It wasn't even that he appeared to be on Team Void, its that he was a threat to the dynasty.) Her first instinct when finding out Shallan was a Radiant was to bind her to the Kholins via marriage. I don't really see the need to bind Kaladin to the Kholins in that way any more than I see the need to bind Szeth to the Kholins in that way. Both Kaladin and Szeth are (at this point) fully associated with and loyal to Dalinar personally, beyond their position as KRs. Kaladin even has lands in Kholin territory now, at least on paper. I see Jasnah reserving herself as an available woman for someone who isn't already bound to the Kholin family, especially a Radiant outside the burgeoning Urithiru society. Best to prevent splinter Radiant organizations from cropping up

[Ripheus23]

Jasnah reminds me of Hannah Arendt so I think she'll end up marrying Taravangian

[Void89]

6 hours ago, Razrback16 said:

Were you disappointed in that just because you were a Shalladin shipper or you just felt the way that love triangle was wrapped up was "unbelievable"?

Originally I was a big Shalladin fan, but I've come to not really enjoy Shallan's character anymore - I find her quite annoying in general so I was pretty happy when it appeared he closed out that love triangle. I'm hoping Kaladin will run into Tarah at some point so we can figure that out, and then I'd ultimately like to see Jasnah & Kaladin develop something.

At first totally - I liked them both, and they had chemistry. Now, well I'm not sure. The thing is that shallan is lying to everybody, most of all to herself. And that is far from over - she's trying to not make it worse, but she isn't healing either. That's far from healthy and far from anything Kaladin needs - they just would be miserable together. At least for now.

Also Adolin isn't really the best choice - you are a broken piece of crap with 300 secrets, not sure who you are, not completely sane, lying to yourself about your health..  and then you just make the very small decision to get married to the next best person even if you can't really be sure if that is really what you want?

This just can't end well.

I did not find the ending unsatisfying because I liked shaladin, but because of how it was resolved it was basically 25 chapters of "oh I'm about to swoon she/he is so special/beautiful whatever" - and then we get a few pages with - "full stop - let's get married, forget everything that happened before we just make up some half good excuses and everybody will eat it" - that's not Sanderson. He writes good stories, and he would never make a mistake like that.

 

So far, journey before destination

[Winds Alight]

Funny how different things can feel for different people.
I'm incredbly grateful for how it was resolved and that there wasn't some stupid love triangle drama.

I find both Shallan's and Kaladin's reasoning believable.
I liked their ship back in WoR, but I was never really invested, and I truly believe both of them need someone more stable in their lives.
Shallan and Adolin are a good match, they have chemistry, and after I found them a bit annoying back in WoR, I ame to like them as a couple.
Also, I believe Shallan made some progress during OB. It's just that a trauma like hers doesn't simply go away.

Also, bear in mind, Kaladin doesn't really get Shallan. He sees her smiling and he thinks she's somehow dealing with everything she went through better than he - but int ruth, I believe the opposite is the case.
Kaladin knows nothing about Shallan's split personality issues, while Adolin is much more aware of this and still wants to be with her and he can deal with this. Kaladin has enough to deal with by himself.
Also, he is a dork and his social skills really have room for improvement. It's very realistic that he mistook his feelings for Shallan for romantic attraction.

By the end of OB, I believe all three of them are in a good place - as good as is possible given the circumstances. There are no bitter feeling between Kaladin and Adolin or Shallan and Kaladin. They're friends.
I like that a lot.

[equinox]

I also like Kaladin and Shallan as friends and fully agree with @Winds Alight concerning OB's closure of the triangle.

Also, I like that Shallan can be witty with Kaladin similar as she was with her brothers. And she is able to smile even in times Kaladin is just not able to smile similar as Tien was able to smile (though I believe and hope that Tien's smiles were more honest (on a side note: I'm really sad to not get to know Tien better).

[Void89]

Well, whatever happens happens. Regardless of what we'll discuss here it won't change the story he will be writing. I for one just wanted to put it out there that the whole thing just seems way too rushed and is very unlikely to be the end of it. If I'm right you'll see me telling you in about... uhm... 2 years "told you so" if not - I'll have to live with it. But as it stands now it would really really bother me - I said earlier because of how it was done but that's not entirely true - I guess the very idea of the resolve is ok - not what I would do but that's not the point. It just happened way too fast way too rushed for being a good resolve, pushed into the last few pages - felt like "ok let's get this over with" if you get what I'm saying. If he'd done that in the next book shallan "slowly" deciding that she wants adolin (everything would be slower than what we got) - ok fine all good - but here she basically blinks 2 times and "ok it's done - all good adolin it is".

Also the note on how the book ends, we get that rushed ending and then it's over - right after the battle of the millennium - looks more like an endorphine rush than anything else to me.

But well, we'll see what happens next looking forward to the next books

One thing is sure though, if I ever have to read something along the lines of "I can't be not ok with somebody as sweet as jam at my side" I'll probably read the rest of the books on kindle instead of hardcover - easier to wipe away fluids that should stay in your stomach.

[equinox]

11 minutes ago, Void89 said:

One thing is sure though, if I ever have to read something along the lines of "I can't be not ok with somebody as sweet as jam at my side" I'll probably read the rest of the books on kindle instead of hardcover - easier to wipe away fluids that should stay in your stomach.

 Agreed!

Oathbringer has a very high wordcount as it is. And still, I feel that some storylines were a bit rushed. The Shallan-Adolin conclusion is only one example and I guess I'm fine with it as I'm not very interested in romances within the book. But we don't see much of the battle's aftermath. For me, Szeth is - for instance - accepted much too easily. And even before the avalanche starts, I feel I miss some insights on various characters or situations (e.g. Amaram comes to my mind). Still, I won't complain. Even if I want every secondary character's story in-depth, Roshar is too huge that this wish can be fulfilled. 

And I'm looking forward - as all of you do - to book 4 in order to get more of some by now unresolved storylines (e.g. the Sadeas-murder, what's up with Shallan's brothers?, how will the coalition deal with the situation?, where is Rlain?, and to come back to the topic: Will we meet Tarah?...)

[Razrback16]

I can see Void89's point on things being rushed, I agree it felt like that. On the flip since I have significantly tired of Shallan and as a result Shalladin has become something I didn't want to see happen, I was actually glad it got ended even if it seemed rushed.

[StrikerEZ]

@Void89 I’ve probabilities talked about this before earlier in this thread, though I can’t really remember. 

I feel like the thing with Shallan and Adolin getting married at the end of OB feels rushed because Brandon wanted it to feel that way. Brandon is such a good author at this point that, while he will and has made mistakes every now and then, I don’t think this was a mistake. I don’t know for sure where he’s planning on taking this, but the scenario I see being most likely is Shallan and Adolin having to work to make their marriage work. Because, let’s face it, they rushed into that marriage. This isn’t super unrealistic; people rush into relationships and marriages all the time today, even without the pressures of being in an arranged marriage. While I could easily see Brandon make a believable arc where Shallan and Adolin realize they rushed into things and shouldn’t have gotten married and decide to divorce, I think it would be much more satisfying to see them work past their struggles and work to make the relationship work. 

[wotbibliophile]

I agree more with @Void89 than with @Winds Alight . I thought the ending was terrible. I don't see why I should believe Kaladin when he says he doesn't love her. He said all through OB that he wasn't interested, that Shallan and Adolin were together, and Syl kept pushing because he obviously was interested. He says she reminds him of Tien and that is something he already knew because he thought of it in the chasms. Its not new. It's the same old thing. Kaladin has a pattern. He could tell she had made a choice and since it wasn't him he said he wasn't interested in her anyway. And yeah he was calm about it. He was calm about it at the end of WOR, too. When he felt so rejected that she hadn't looked at him. He says the same thing. That they fit.

Kaladin also said in OB he liked Shallan and Adolin, just not together. I am with him there. I like Shallan and Adolin, just not together.

I also hated, no matter how brief, the little fight between Adolin and Shallan. At no time do I think Adolin ever thought of Shallan as his property or as someone he could put where ever he wanted. He says outright that he is trying to respect the choice she already made. Because of how she was acting, he believed she wanted to be with Kaladin. And, come on, two seconds ago she brushed him off to rush toward Kaladin so he had reason to think that. He was not far off.

And I hated that Shallan said "He knows me." Adolin knowing what Shallan looks like has to be the worst basis for a relationship ever. If Sanderson wanted to give the impression that Adolin knew Shallan better than Kaladin, he could have set it up much better. I never had the impression that Adolin knew or understood Shallan very well. Her decision to be with him is immediately followed by her assuring him all the things he observed about her preferring Kaladin were wrong and really she wants to be with him. Her wanting to be with him is fine. Her deciding to be with him because he knows her then telling him he is all wrong about her is a painful contradiction. It left me very confused. My head was spinning, my eyes were crossing.

TLDR: I found the conclusion of Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan to be unbelievable.

[equinox]

I can totally relate to both, Shallan's and Kaladin's reasoning. Shallan does say "He knows me", but means that Adolin recognizes the true Shallan - something she herself sometimes struggles to do as other personas bleed in. Radiant and Veil might be part of who Shallan is and she may need to integrate them to become whole again. But right now, Shallan becomes a person different from her true self when being Veil. And Veil "fawning over Kaladin Stormblessed" is definitely not Shallan falling in love. 

From Kaladin's viewpoint.. He seems surprised when he says 

Quote

"He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn’t be bitter. He didn’t feel resignation either. Instead he felt … agreement?"

Shortly afterwards he realized, he doesn't love her. I can totally get it. Yes, he's into her, maybe even infatuated. But not in love. Sometimes it's hard to see the difference. Especially if the other person (in this case Veil) has an eye on you too. I've lived through this moment so many times before. I think that Kaladin, even though he doesn't understand Shallan's split personality, knows that she is not the right person for him.
And him saying he likes Shallan and Adolin, but not both as a couple? It's a bit jealousy and maybe a bit their lovey dovey behavior. I even disliked myself sometimes during the phase when I got to know my current boyfriend and I am happy to be over that. You know.. Those new couples that behave like teens always being over one another, floating three feet above the ground. It's embarrassing, really (and also cute, and feeling good and warm, and putting a smile on your face that makes your face muscles sore, because you JUST CAN'T STOP smiling). I think Kaladin will start to like those two together after he learns to know them as a couple. 

[Calderis]

Adolin doesn't know Shallan well. But neither does Kaladin. It's impossible to know her because the real her is completely hidden. She doesn't even know it. 

I'm happy that the triangle is over, good or not, because here's the way it should have worked in reality. 

Adolin: grows out of his fears of commitment and gets everything good cause he's just genuinely a good man. 

Kaladin: spends some time figuring out his own crem before trying for any kind of relationship. 

Shallan: is a storming train wreck and needs to fix herself before she even looks at anyone in anything approaching a romantic interest. Give it a decade or two. 

If it has to be a resolution of the triangle with two of those three, I vote Kadolin, cause that's the least likely to end horribly. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Calderis

[Vissy]

I hope Shallan and Adolin break up at some point. That relationship is founded on too many lies on Shallan's part. Kadolin all the way!

[StrikerEZ]

I would totally be down for some Kadolin action in later books. Maybe Shallan dies in the front five and Kaladin and Adolin hook up during the gap between books 5 and 6. 

Though I really don’t want Shallan and Adolin to just break up. It’ll be so much more satisfying to me if they at least attempt to make things work. 

[Rainier]

21 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

TLDR: I found the conclusion of Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan to be unbelievable.

I'm not going to quote everything you wrote, but I agree with all of it and feel much the same way. Rushed, unbelievable, unsatisfying, and generally poorly done.

That said, I don't see the Kaladin/Adolin, and I find it weird that so many people are so willing to make two obviously straight men gay. Kaladin spent his youth assuming/hoping he'd marry Laral. He had a relationship with another woman as a soldier. There's no reason to believe he's gay, at all. Adolin is the same way, in that he's a known womanizer and goes through women before Shallan showed up. Neither of them have ever shown anything that would indicate that they're gay. It's kinda gross, like the weirdo Harry/Draco fetish erotica so popular among a certain subset of Potterheads. 

I also don't think Jasnah/Kaladin is a good ship, but that's mainly due to personality and age differences. Jasnah is never going to love Kaladin, and I'm not sure she's capable of the kind of love that Kaladin so clearly yearns for. I can see Jasnah marrying politically, but I don't see why Kaladin would be it. Much more likely that the new Queen of Alethkar gets married off to some other King to solidify the bond between two nations. 

[Winds Alight]

Y'know, you don't need to ship them, but you could at least try and be respectful. (Hint: Implying gay pairs are gross is not.)

Also, I'd very much like to know when Kaladin ever really hoped to marry Laral. That stopped very early in their youth.

Right now, I only ship Kaladin with happiness, everything else can storm off. Really, I'm tired of people always trying to get every character in a romantic relationship.

[wotbibliophile]

I dislike Shallan and Adolin because Shallan is constantly lying to him. Even when she's trying to be honest, she is so out of touch with reality that she ends up lying. Like saying Veil is interested in Kaladin when in fact Veil doesn't exist. Only Shallan is real. I'm glad someone else doubted that Adolin knows Shallan. I keep trying to think of what he knows about her, but really she does her best to hide from him and everyone.

Kaladin doesn't know Shallan that well, but she is more honest with him. She told him about how she grew up. She is courting Adolin and he still has no idea. What did they talk about? How did they get to know each other? She's married to him and I wonder if he knows her brothers names. Her brothers made it to the wedding so he should, but I doubt she ever talked about them.

17 hours ago, equinox said:

Adolin recognizes the true Shallan - something she herself sometimes struggles to do as other personas bleed in.

This is very disturbing to me. I think we agree that Shallan is a mess. But her mess is hers. It is not up to Adolin or Wit or anyone to tell Shallan who she is. It is up to Shallan. Anyway, I strongly disagree that Adolin recognizes true Shallan. He knows what she looks like. What about her fight with the unmade in Urithiru? She talks about how she hates being thought of as clever. I thought that was more honest than how she behaves around Adolin. What about what Sanderson said about Shallan's temper? Sanderson thought that was more true to Shallan. I don't think that is something Adolin would recognize.

@Calderis You brought up reality. I'm reading a fantasy and reality is not a priority for me. My priority is consistency. If a character starts out a certain way they need to keep on that way or the changes in the character need to be explained/understood. [For example, Kaladin hates lighteyes. His exposure to lighteyes who are honorable and kind is changing this. Done.] OB was missing a lot of that explanation. I felt characters were doing whatever Sanderson's outline needed them to do and it was quite confusing.

I have tried hard to understand Shallan. I've failed. I believe, like Shallan says, that Shallan and Veil are equally false. They are a front she puts up because she is always hiding. She uses Shallan and Veil to achieve certain ends and to hide the pain she feels from others and herself. Shallan was made because her father insisted she be a proper Vorin girl and she needed to uplift her brothers. Veil was made so Shallan could pretend she never killed her mother (and possibly because Veil would not have loved her father? This last is something Sanderson said).

I've gone on and on. I'll try to make this about Kaladin's love life. Um . . . 

I strongly believe Kaladin is ready for a relationship now. Some people have said he has stuff to figure out first. I disagree. He would make a great partner. I think Kaladin had (and still has) a crush on Shallan. He did not doubt that she was able to take care of herself. She went into the palace in Kholinar and Kaladin was fine being support even knowing this was a lethal situation. She ends up stabbed and nearly dead and Kaladin doesn't react like "you must never be in danger ever again. I shall protect you." Instead he makes a joke because he understands that is what she wants in that moment. I believe Kaladin needs a partner who is his equal. He sees Shallan as his equal (even his superior) and he is not over protective and he is not crippled into inaction. Also, anyone who doesn't understand his desire to protect bridge 4 and the time he will take to care for them is not worth his time.

I like Kaladin and Adolin as a couple. I think they make good friends and I wouldn't be bothered if it became more, but I am sure Kaladin is straight. I think Adolin might have a crush on Kaladin.

One last thing about love. Kaladin, Shallan, and Sanderson use the word love. From what I read, I never thought anyone in the triangle was in love with anyone else. I thought everybody was at the level of infatuation. Kind of swooning, but not a lot of depth.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

That said, I don't see the Kaladin/Adolin, and I find it weird that so many people are so willing to make two obviously straight men gay.

On my part at least, it's sarcasm to demonstrate just how unbelievably bad I find both of the other options. 

I think they're both straight and the relationship won't ever happen. That doesn't mean I don't see it as a better option than both of the other possible triangle pairings. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Calderis

[StrikerEZ]

As a bisexual guy myself, I could totally see Adolin and Kaladin being at least bi and falling for each other. Several times while in Kholinar (and throughout the book) Kaladin defends Adolin, saying stuff like “he’s such a great guy if you’d just get to know him,” and there’s other stuff I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I could totally see a relationship pulled off between them. Assuming all the stuff I’m thinking of isn’t just Kaladin and Adolin thinking of each other as like best friends/brothers.

Of course, I don’t think the relationship is ever gonna happen, considering who Brandon is. But that doesn’t mean I can’t still ship them. 

[TequilaJack]

The interaction between Adolin and Kaladin in WoR puts them in good mates category firmly. No romance. 

Kaladin will get involved with Jasnah. A cold woman and a passionate man.....you can feel it waiting to happen. 

Though, late in the series. Like both single as of now. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by TequilaJack

[Kon-Tiki]

I think Jasnah is more likely to try and marry Kaladin off for political reasons than she is to try and make a pass at him. Looked at in the right light, Kaladin has replaced Adolin as Alethkar's most eligible bachelor as an unmarried landed of 4th dahn (minimum). He acts like he's outside the normal social structure, and he kind of is, but on paper at least he's a valuable marriagable asset for Alethkar

 

Edit: I should clarify, I mean Jasnah marry Kaladin off to someone else. He's already hound tightly enough to the Kholins, and can bring some other family/KR into the fold

Edited December 21, 2018 by Kon-Tiki

[TequilaJack]

52 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

I think Jasnah is more likely to try and marry Kaladin off for political reasons than she is to try and make a pass at him. Looked at in the right light, Kaladin has replaced Adolin as Alethkar's most eligible bachelor as an unmarried landed of 4th dahn (minimum). He acts like he's outside the normal social structure, and he kind of is, but on paper at least he's a valuable marriagable asset for Alethkar

As if Jasnah cares...

No offense, but Jasnah is the last person I'd count to have a political marriage. She has always been her own and a bad example (Amaram words). 

I think they'll fall in love. Opposites attract.