[OB] Kaladin's love life ?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, deacon said:

I don't see where you are getting this reading of him?

It's probably stemmed in the fact in how he never says, that he loves her and never really thinks about her.

Yet, I agree. I think he won't be fine with it, but it wouldn't be because of love, but because of reasons of public perception. Also he would have a point, that he gave her an out once.

But I'm also aware, that this debate will never end.

[Karger]

He spends like half of the trip through shademar feeling inadequate because he can't compete with Kaladin.  He cares enough to let her go and he also seems to seriously care for her personal wellbeing.  How is that never thinking of her?

Edited March 19, 2019 by Karger

[deacon]

18 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It's probably stemmed in the fact in how he never says, that he loves her and never really thinks about her.

Yet, I agree. I think he won't be fine with it, but it wouldn't be because of love, but because of reasons of public perception. Also he would have a point, that he gave her an out once.

But I'm also aware, that this debate will never end.

I kinda feel like we read different books if that's your take, but I understand not wanting to get into it.

Also, oops @Karger you might want to have responded to Bookish Ocelet in your previous post, not me?  

[Guest]

Half the trip? More like one moment on the boat, where he rants to Pattern about it.

It's not about care. People care a lot about other people, even in non-romantic relationships. I will never deny, that he cares about Shallan. What I'm talking about how much she's not in his thoughts in his PoVs. Very atypical of a young man in supposed love, but again, I have repeatedly told this.

Edited March 19, 2019 by SLNC

[Bookish Ocelot]

@Karger@deaconI sort of think what SLNC is saying. If you've ever been in love with someone, you think about them a lot. Like all the time. Just a small thing can bring them up. Ex: Oh that flower is the color of ABC's eyes, that's the place where we met, they made that joke to me, etc. I care about my parents and siblings, but I'm not romantic towards them.

[deacon]

15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Half the trip? More like one moment on the boat, where he rants to Pattern about it.

It's not about care. People care a lot about other people, even in non-romantic relationships. I will never deny, that he cares about Shallan. What I'm talking about how much she's not in his thoughts in his PoVs. Very atypical of a young man in supposed love, but again, I have repeatedly told this.

It did feel like a lot of his POV, especially since we have less of his POV than Kaladin and Shallan's. There are many small moments where his feelings of inadequacy shows itself, not just when he explicitly says something out loud. It's written into the narrative, where we can follow the implicit meaning: Adolin feels inadequate when he thinks about Kaladin and Shallan and other people in his life being Radiants while he is not, caring about the relationship enough to be nervous that Shallan might leave him, Adolin always makes note of how powerful and amazing Kaladin is especially when Shallan is there and aware of him, providing things and actions to show he cares for Shallan - bringing her meals, rubbing her shoulders, being present when he can tell she's upset. It's just reading the character in the actions, it doesn't need to be explicit. His feelings felt very clear to me. On all my rereads it felt like more than enough to show he really cares about her and wants to be with her, but until their final conversation after Thaylen Fields, is just waiting for the other shoe to drop. That is to say, his feelings of inadequacy mean that he so fears that Shallan will leave him that he's holding himself a little more reserved.

 

8 minutes ago, BookishOcelot said:

@Karger@deaconI sort of think what SLNC is saying. If you've ever been in love with someone, you think about them a lot. Like all the time. Just a small thing can bring them up. Ex: Oh that flower is the color of ABC's eyes, that's the place where we met, they made that joke to me, etc. I care about my parents and siblings, but I'm not romantic towards them.

I kind of disagree. Adolin doesn't do that with anyone else in his POVs either, and we know he loves his dad and Renarin a lot. So following the pattern of people that he loves, Shallan is not unusual. If we use this logic, then I think we have to say Adolin is in love with Kaladin, because like I said above, he will always notice how cool Kaladin looks and acts all the time.  

Edited March 19, 2019 by deacon

[Bookish Ocelot]

Just now, deacon said:

It did feel like a lot of his POV, especially since we have less of his POV than Kaladin and Shallan's. There are many small moments where his feelings of inadequacy shows itself, not just when he explicitly says something out loud. It's written into the narrative, where we can follow the implicit meaning: Adolin feels inadequate when he thinks about Kaladin and Shallan and other people in his life being Radiants while he is not, caring about the relationship enough to be nervous that Shallan might leave him, Adolin always makes note of how powerful and amazing Kaladin is especially when Shallan is there and aware of him, providing things and actions to show he cares for Shallan - bringing her meals, rubbing her shoulders, being present when he can tell she's upset. It's just reading the character in the actions, it doesn't need to be explicit. His feelings felt very clear to me. On all my rereads it felt like more than enough to show he really cares about her and wants to be with her, but until their final conversation after Thaylen Fields, is just waiting for the other shoe to drop. That is to say, his feelings of inadequacy men that he so fears that Shallan will leave him that he's holding himself a little more reserved.

 

I kind of disagree. Adolin doesn't do that with anyone else in his POVs either, and we know he loves his dad and Renarin a lot. So following the pattern of people that he loves, Shallan is not unusual. If we use this logic, then I think we have to say Adolin is in love with Kaladin, because like I said above, he will always notice how cool Kaladin looks and acts all the time.  

1

@deaconYep guys there's our conclusion. Kadolin for the win. 

[deacon]

Just now, BookishOcelot said:

@deaconYep guys there's our conclusion. Kadolin for the win. 

Hah, okay, upvote for making me laugh XD

[Bookish Ocelot]

@deaconThanks! Look, here's an entire thread about it!

 

 

 

[deacon]

16 minutes ago, BookishOcelot said:

@deaconThanks! Look, here's an entire thread about it!

 

 

 

damnation, that's pretty far back, a year ago! (Have gone to spread some upvotes there.) You just been digging into the forums?

[Bookish Ocelot]

Yeah. I've actually been on here for a while but didn't create an account until recently. I've read a lot (and i mean a lot.) of posts on here. I happened to be looking into all things Shakadolin when I first got into the series.

[deacon]

1 minute ago, BookishOcelot said:

Yeah. I've actually been on here for a while but didn't create an account until recently. I've read a lot (and i mean a lot.) of posts on here. I happened to be looking into all things Shakadolin when I first got into the series.

Oh, cool, yeah I guess I can see why it'd be a pretty popular topic. A couple of friends of mine are really into it as a three way ship where everybody is happy, and I think I'm basically gonna do that - just ignore the books ftm. Or at least until SA4 comes out. Who knows. 

[Bookish Ocelot]

Just now, deacon said:

Oh, cool, yeah I guess I can see why it'd be a pretty popular topic. A couple of friends of mine are really into it as a three way ship where everybody is happy, and I think I'm basically gonna do that - just ignore the books ftm. Or at least until SA4 comes out. Who knows. 

That seems like a good idea. I ship all three sides (Shaladin, Shadolin, and Kadolin) but Shaladin is my favorite. I can see logical arguments for all three, arguments why none would happen. It's really a great place to be. Anyone can speak their opinion - Brandon won't confirm or deny anything. I feel like there was a WOB saying Adolin was straight but I can't find it. 

[Guest]

@deacon It's okay. You do yours, I'll do mine. We don't have to agree. But, for the record and everyone else, I believe feelings of inadequacy play a part, but they aren't the reason. They are more an outgrowth as how Adolin views the relationship. It was always intended to be political and as such Adolin never changed his view on that. That is where his annoyance about supposedly "losing" to Kaladin comes from. He's not upset, angry or disappointed, that the girl he loves is leering at another man. No, he's angry, because he lost the game. The game to not disappoint his family. I agree, that he cares about Shallan. I'll never deny that, which I'm saying for the second time on the same page. Otherwise, he wouldn't have given her an out. I don't agree about giving him credit for "bringing her meals", Palona told him to do that, but that doesn't detract from the fact, that he cares about her. Yet, Adolin cares a lot about many people. He is a compassionate man. It is just, that his care for Shallan is nothing special.

In short, people are forgetting Adolin's stake for having to make the relationship work. He doesn't want to disappoint is family for not finally finding and keeping a wife. He cares, but he does not love.

Edited March 19, 2019 by SLNC

[Karger]

Hmmm compassionate love is underrated compared to romantic love.  I think that a relationship between two people who truly care about and respect each other might be on better footing then one between two individuals who think each other are sexy.

[Guest]

Ah, the "Shallan and Kaladin only find each other sexy" thesis. Quite frankly, I really don't get where this narrative spawned from, especially since we have the quite emotional chasm sequence. Actually, whenever Shallan thinks about Kaladin, it is more focused on his passionate and stubborn nature, not about his looks. I'm not saying, that she never thinks that he's good looking, I'm just questioning if the focus really lies there. Vice versa, Kaladin rather admires her for her inner strength and bravery in light of danger. Again, I'm not saying, that he never thinks she's good looking. Again, I'm just questioning if the focus really lies there. I think it is very hard to determine their actual feelings for each other, because they both have decided to not pursue them for the time being. Both for different reasons. Shallan because she needed her emergency anchor and Kaladin because of his depression. Time will tell, if they can ignore them or if they will constantly resurface.

Quote

Hmmm compassionate love is underrated compared to romantic love.

Compassion and romantic love are not juxtaposed. Romantic love usually contains some form of compassion. However, the same is true for good friendships. That's the thing, friendship and love are similar, but not the same. This happens all the time, when people meet and learn to care for each other and confuse that as love, because when they decide to go into a relationship... it just doesn't work. This is especially easy, when both parties have a stake to commit to the relationship. An urgency to have it work out.

Edited March 19, 2019 by SLNC

[+Oltux72]

You may call me hopelessly unromantic.
Kaladin is now a landed holder of a title, albeit in exile. He resides in a practically impenetrable fortress. There are a lot of gentry on the run. There will be people who will offer him their daughters or themselves as in recent widows.

[Inky]

There's more than just Kal in Urithuru. Also I doubt there'll be much political marriage during the apocalypse 

[Bookish Ocelot]

@Oltux72You might be right. However, most of these could have apprehensions about handing over their daughters to a former slave/dark eyes. On top of that, he still is branded as dangerous. Also what @Inkysays. Not much time for politics in the apocalypse. 

[+Oltux72]

Just now, BookishOcelot said:

@Oltux72You might be right. However, most of these could have apprehensions about handing over their daughters to a former slave/dark eyes. On top of that, he still is branded as dangerous.

Exactly the kind of man you want during a Desolation. Why do you think Evi was given to Dalinar? And that was without doomsday having begun.

Just now, BookishOcelot said:

Also what @Inkysays. Not much time for politics in the apocalypse. 

This isn't politics. Not primarily. It is about keeping eating and not being run through with a Singer spear. If your daughter can get a Lighteyes, even better.

1 minute ago, Inky said:

There's more than just Kal in Urithuru.

Unmarried Knights Radiant you could realistically hope to marry your daughter to? With an estate to consider, if there will be an end to the war? Teft and Lopen maybe. One an addict the other ... Lopen.

1 minute ago, Inky said:

Also I doubt there'll be much political marriage during the apocalypse 

Look at a Syrian refugee camp. Or a Rohingya camp. Or ...
Practical observation says the exact opposite. Time is running out. You'll make deals you'd hesitate to do in normal times.

[Bookish Ocelot]

Marrying your son/daughter to a radiant would make them a target for anyone wanting to remove the radiants from the picture...

[Sedside]

You talk about it the way like the only thing Kaladin lacks is a willing woman, so anyone can offer him his daughter and there we go. He is one of the most eligible bachelors on Roshar, come on. Knight Radiant, Shardbearer, landowner, Blackthorn listens to him an trusts him, he is in command of a thousand men and so on. And just overall awesome.

I don't think, finding a woman is the problem. I also don't think Kaladin will marry for political reasons. He values his freedom too highly to bond with a woman he has no feelings for. He is quite stubborn, and I think he will rather stay alone. Also, pure political marriage is boring plot-wise. How will it serve Kaladin character progression?

Edited March 20, 2019 by Sedside

[Bookish Ocelot]

What? No! I was responding to the idea of ploticsl marriage in general on Roshar. I definitely think Kaladin would reject anyone who tried to marry him for anything other than true love. 

[deacon]

13 hours ago, SLNC said:

@deacon It's okay. You do yours, I'll do mine. We don't have to agree. But, for the record and everyone else, I believe feelings of inadequacy play a part, but they aren't the reason. They are more an outgrowth as how Adolin views the relationship. It was always intended to be political and as such Adolin never changed his view on that. That is where his annoyance about supposedly "losing" to Kaladin comes from. He's not upset, angry or disappointed, that the girl he loves is leering at another man. No, he's angry, because he lost the game. The game to not disappoint his family. I agree, that he cares about Shallan. I'll never deny that, which I'm saying for the second time on the same page. Otherwise, he wouldn't have given her an out. I don't agree about giving him credit for "bringing her meals", Palona told him to do that, but that doesn't detract from the fact, that he cares about her. Yet, Adolin cares a lot about many people. He is a compassionate man. It is just, that his care for Shallan is nothing special.

In short, people are forgetting Adolin's stake for having to make the relationship work. He doesn't want to disappoint is family for not finally finding and keeping a wife. He cares, but he does not love.

I bolded the bit that I am very confused at, because none of that is written in the books. He's not angry, and there's no evidence that he thinks of his relationship with Shallan as a game. In fact, we have it written in Shallan's POV that she knows he's nervous about wrecking the relationship, and that was a scene just between them without Kaladin being involved at all. I'm thinking back to OB, but I don't think this reading is based in anything from the actual text that Brandon wrote. Is this from a WoB?

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

Ah, the "Shallan and Kaladin only find each other sexy" thesis. Quite frankly, I really don't get where this narrative spawned from, especially since we have the quite emotional chasm sequence. Actually, whenever Shallan thinks about Kaladin, it is more focused on his passionate and stubborn nature, not about his looks. I'm not saying, that she never thinks that he's good looking, I'm just questioning if the focus really lies there. Vice versa, Kaladin rather admires her for her inner strength and bravery in light of danger. Again, I'm not saying, that he never thinks she's good looking. Again, I'm just questioning if the focus really lies there. I think it is very hard to determine their actual feelings for each other, because they both have decided to not pursue them for the time being. Both for different reasons. Shallan because she needed her emergency anchor and Kaladin because of his depression. Time will tell, if they can ignore them or if they will constantly resurface.

What I found interesting was that Kaladin actually wonders what happened about their time in the chasm, because he certainly thought it was meaningful. But then he thinks of it because he's so surprised that she seems to be totally "forgetting" it and treating him so meanly. Not talking about WoR here, but just in OB, that's pretty much it. He thinks of being attracted to her, and once or twice recalls the chasms as being meaningful and sad/confused that she's like pretending it didn't happen, and then it's basically dropped.

But opposed to Kaladin's POV... There is Shallan's POV. I think that in Shallan's POV, whenever she thinks of Kaladin, she does the whole entire "oh, he's so dark and stormy", which is basically... just saying that he's sexy and she's attracted to him. Which is weird to me, because the way Shallan sees him during OB is not the way I think of Kaladin at all, and kind of left a really bad taste in my mouth.

This is all kinda weird to me, because I know Brandon has said something like... treating each book as its own distinct novel, and in OB as an individual thing, Kaladin and Shallan's entire thing was basically dropped. I guess that's how Brandon wanted it to come off... :/

[Sedside]

45 minutes ago, BookishOcelot said:

What? No! I was responding to the idea of ploticsl marriage in general on Roshar. I definitely think Kaladin would reject anyone who tried to marry him for anything other than true love. 

Oh, all right, I misunderstood you, excuse me!

43 minutes ago, deacon said:

I bolded the bit that I am very confused at, because none of that is written in the books. He's not angry, and there's no evidence that he thinks of his relationship with Shallan as a game. In fact, we have it written in Shallan's POV that she knows he's nervous about wrecking the relationship, and that was a scene just between them without Kaladin being involved at all. I'm thinking back to OB, but I don't think this reading is based in anything from the actual text that Brandon wrote. Is this from a WoB?

None of Adolin's love for Shallan is written in the books too. We have 0 (zero) occurences in his OB PoVs when he thinks Shallan is pretty, he loves her, he wants to be with her or whatever else. But it doesn't prevent people from thinking that Adolin loves Shallan. That's wonderful, I think.

Judging Adolin's thoughts from Shallan's PoV is a strange thing to do as well. Noone can know what other person is thinking about. Shallan thinks Adolin thinks she is pretty, but in Adolin's PoVs we never actually see him thinking so. We never see him thinking that he is afraid of ruining this betrothal. He says it, yes, but, I think I'll never get tired of repeating it, what character says isn't the same what character thinks, you have to look at the wider context of the conversation. We see, how he behaves in their after TCB dialogue - he doesn't sound infatuated to me. He finds endless excuses not to marry, there are like 5 lines from his side expressing different kinds of objections against it, but he falls under Shallan's pressure, because he is overall this kind of guy - undetermined. Judging his feelings by Shallan's thoughts about his feelings is the same as (Warbreaker spoilers):

Spoiler

believing Parlin was in love with Vivenna, because she thought so about him. She thought, yes, but if you try to abstract yourself from trusting her and actually look at what Parlin is doing, you won't see any signs of love from his side.

 

52 minutes ago, deacon said:

What I found interesting was that Kaladin actually wonders what happened about their time in the chasm, because he certainly thought it was meaningful. But then he thinks of it because he's so surprised that she seems to be totally "forgetting" it and treating him so meanly. Not talking about WoR here, but just in OB, that's pretty much it. He thinks of being attracted to her, and once or twice recalls the chasms as being meaningful and sad/confused that she's like pretending it didn't happen, and then it's basically dropped.

Well, according to Shallan's dialogue with Radiant and Veil after TC battle, she was thinking about the chasms. But we all know, that Shallan has a bad habit of lying to herself and hiding from things. She confronted the truth about Helaran and it was gone in two lines of text and never go out again. Do you think it is really gone? I don't. I think it's just hidden somewhere inside Radiant's or Veil's conscious. Why can't they probably think about it, while Shallan is in her "Shallan" persona? Radiant said "we were dancing around a decision ever since those days we spent in chasms with Stormblessed" - but where is the dancing? I don't see it. Maybe it was off-screen in Radiant all along, but it was there, because Radiant was talking about it. Shallan is hard to understand, that's why this situation is so confusing. And I think it is intentional from Brandon's side to make it so confusing. If he clearly states, how much Shallan actually loves Kaladin, the following subversion of her horrible marriage won't be so surprising for the majority of readers

58 minutes ago, deacon said:

But opposed to Kaladin's POV... There is Shallan's POV. I think that in Shallan's POV, whenever she thinks of Kaladin, she does the whole entire "oh, he's so dark and stormy", which is basically... just saying that he's sexy and she's attracted to him. Which is weird to me, because the way Shallan sees him during OB is not the way I think of Kaladin at all, and kind of left a really bad taste in my mouth.

Well, if you think "he is controlling his passion, he dominated his wrath, he is determined, and solemn, you can't change him whatever you do and whoever you are" equals "he is sexy", then what do you think about "oh that hair, oh that smile, oh that voice, oh those stupid arms, oh I want to rip his shirt off"? The first is "she just wants sex with him" and the second is "compassionate love"? You guys really blow my head with that kind of analysis 

1 hour ago, deacon said:

This is all kinda weird to me, because I know Brandon has said something like... treating each book as its own distinct novel, and in OB as an individual thing, Kaladin and Shallan's entire thing was basically dropped. I guess that's how Brandon wanted it to come off... :/

I will repeat, I think it's all intentional from Brandon's side in order to make a subversion later. Why didn't he show Kaladin and Shallan flying to Thaylen City? Why is there a picture of Urithiru with Kaladin in it, and no story about how he flew her there to draw it? Why so many interactions between them are off screen? We only have 3 (three) dialogues between Shallan and Kaladin in OB, and one of them is when they both are in bad state of minds after their respective failures in Kholinar. Is it a coincidence? I don't think so. If they were really so bad for each other like so many people here say they are - why not write more of their interactions to make it more obvious? Not one dialogue, that went bad (only in the end, I would also notice, it started pretty well, actually) because of their mental states, but two, three, four dialogues, where everything falls apart, and the result looks more convincing? If Brandon really wanted to show Shadolin as something good, why does it look so cheesy then? Why is that "you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful without you I fade"? Is it how he thinks a real compassionate love looks like? Why is Adolin trying to give her up even after her tirade oh how handsome and sexy he is and how much she wants him? Why doesn't Adolin ever think about her, but still thinks Syl is pretty (three times)? Why is that R-V-S dialogue in the end about "we are decided, but we could do better"? Why hasn't she burn a prayer? Why such a haste with marriage? Why, why, why? So many why's. And I didn't mention them all, as there are much more, actually.

Storms, this Shalladin vs Shadolin is swallowing me up again.