[OB] Timbre

[Ari]

So, there's a cometspren in Oathbringer that Venli nicknames Timbre, and there's some interesting things going on if you've read the whole book.

I have a bit of a theory that will either be controversial or a completely obvious realisation that Timbre the cometspren (see I-3, I-11 for Timbre's introduction) is the remnant of Eshonai's mind, and that's why it was hanging around Venli, trying to redeem her and trap her Odiumspren? Timbre first appears from under Eshonai's corpse, and just a few chapters later in chapter 38, we get the full explanation that many Parshendi had left cognitive shadows behind on their death, it seems like a pretty reasonable assumption that the cometspren is simply what a Parshendi cognitive shadow manifests as in the physical realm in Roshar.

Any thoughts?

[Steeldancer]

No. She shows up in WoR. She's not a cognitive whatever. She's very much a spren. 

[JE19426]

I'm pretty sure Timbre is Captain Ico's daughter.

[Ari]

27 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

No. She shows up in WoR. She's not a cognitive whatever. She's very much a spren. 

Cognitive Shadows are Spren, Steeldancer, or Dalinar couldn't have bonded the Stormfather.

8 minutes ago, JE19426 said:

I'm pretty sure Timbre is Captain Ico's daughter.

That's a possibility if the "cometspren" is simply the physical manifestation of a lightspren, and it's the same one we saw in WoR. I had assumed that was one of the Parshendi generals trying to Fuse with Eshonai before she died. It would certainly be suspicious for Eshonai to manifest in a way different to the way her ancestors do, especially as it's implied that Odium had something to do with them managing not to let go in the first place, and Eshonai opposed him pretty fiercely.

[Steeldancer]

1 minute ago, Ari said:

Cognitive Shadows are Spren, Steeldancer, or Dalinar couldn't have bonded the Stormfather.

That's a possibility if the "cometspren" is simply the physical manifestation of a lightspren, and it's the same one we saw in WoR. I had assumed that was one of the Parshendi generals trying to Fuse with Eshonai before she died. It would certainly be suspicious for Eshonai to manifest in a way different to the way her ancestors do, especially as it's implied that Odium had something to do with them managing not to let go in the first place, and Eshonai opposed him pretty fiercely.

Yeah but Timbre is not Eshonai. 

Eshonai didn't have a grandfather killed by the Recreance. Unless Eshonai's grandfather was a radiant spren. 

[Ari]

Ah, I must have skipped by that part in my excitement. Yeah, I would expect it would have been noteworthy if any prior Parshendi cognitive shadows (ghosts, basically) managed to repurpose themselves into radiantspren, and we would have got that in the big Stormfather Infodump in Part 2, but I figured that was the most likely hack that would have allowed Timbre to bond with Venli. I guess not though!

Edited November 16, 2017 by Ari

[Leyrann]

38 minutes ago, Ari said:

Cognitive Shadows are Spren, Steeldancer, or Dalinar couldn't have bonded the Stormfather.

Yeah but the Stormfather isn't just a Cognitive Shadow. It is a Cognitive Shadow attached to a spren.

Also, Timbre appears around Eshonai in Words of Radiance. That's where the whole theory of "Eshonai will become a KR" comes from; in the end, it turned out to be the other sister.

Also remember that Venli sucks in Stormlight in her last chapter. How would Eshonai be able to provide that?

Edited November 16, 2017 by Leyrann

[Pattern]

@Amanuensis posted here:

These passages at least hint that Timbre is Ico's daughter (a Reacher).

[Argent]

I am very much a believer that Timbre is a Willshaper spren - and that Willshaper spren are lightspren. I think I want to gather my thoughts a little better in a separate topic though.

[Marethyu316]

I thought it was Eshonai too, because we see a spren come out from under her body when Venli discovers that she is dead. It does make more sense, though to think that Timbre had been following Eshonai and then started following Venli when Eshonai died.

 

Quote

What was that small spren that had crept out from beneath Eshonai’s corpse? It looked like a small ball of white fire; it gave off little rings of light and trailed a streak behind it. Like a comet.

p. 341

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Marethyu316

[Willow]

Could Eshonai and Timbre have done something similar to what happened to Tanavast and the Stormfather? Just on a much smaller scale.

I've only read through Oathbringer once so far, but since the Parshendi ancestors are described as similar to cognitive shadows, would it be possible for Eshonai (or at least part of her) to have hung around and merged with Timbre?
This wouldn't make her Eshonai exactly, the Stormfather didn't become Tanavast after merging. But it would give Timbre more.. human traits and emotions, and it might be why she choose Venli, who wasn't exactly a stellar example of a potential Knight Radiant in her first interlude.

 

[LiquidBlue]

I thought for a while that timbre was a cognitive shadow of Eshonai, and that she would be returning in the future as a good fused, but by the end of the book I concluded that it is a KR spren that was original trying to form the nahel bond with Eshonai, and was rescued by Venli after her death.

Also isn't interesting that a spren who starts the bonding process is left helpless on the physical realm if their potential partner dies. We saw the same thing with the cryptic that was trying to bond to Elhokar.

[Argent]

7 minutes ago, Willow said:

Could Eshonai and Timbre have done something similar to what happened to Tanavast and the Stormfather? Just on a much smaller scale.

This was kind of my theory prior to the release of Oathbringer. I thought that the way stormform - and all forms of power - worked was by something similar to possession, where a voidspren would come into the listener and displace a piece of their mind or soul, which would then turn into a spren-like entity. That's how I was explaining the comet-like spren Eshonai started seeing after she assumed stormform. 

With all of Oathbringer out, I no longer think this is the case. With Venli almost certainly a Willshaper, the WoB that "the comet-like spren is important to one of the Orders", and with the vague hints that Timbre might be Captain Ico's daughter... I think the evidence for Timbre being a lightspren is, if not overwhelming, then at least very compelling.

[Willow]

15 minutes ago, Argent said:

With all of Oathbringer out, I no longer think this is the case. With Venli almost certainly a Willshaper, the WoB that "the comet-like spren is important to one of the Orders", and with the vague hints that Timbre might be Captain Ico's daughter... I think the evidence for Timbre being a lightspren is, if not overwhelming, then at least very compelling.

True, but couldn't Timbre be a lightspren, Captain Ico's daughter, and have some echoes and memories from Eshonai? She'd still be a lightspren who went to find a person to bond to. But then her potential Willshaper died in the chasms during the High/Everstorm and (maybe) left some part of her cognitive shadow with Timbre. I think the WoR epigraphs say Parshendi are closer to spren, which might influence the way their bond works? Unless Timbre being a Radiantspren prevents all this in some way I missed.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Willow
Grammar and further clarification

[Argent]

I suppose that's possible, @Willow. Eshonai did die during a highstorm, and those are a little wonky. If nothing else, I wouldn't be surprised if she has stuck around as a Cognitive Shadow - she may have been able to use the storm's Investiture to keep herself around.

I still don't believe in the theory, but with the highstorm craziness, who knows what's possible?

[Willow]

@Argent, For the next four years, all the possibilities are open to us. I just really want Eshonai to be alive, but on the other hand I don't really want another fake death, so this seems like a good compromise. 

 

[DiamondMind]

I'll throw my hat in the ring to say that Timber is definitely a Willshaper spren, but Eshonai is also hanging around in some fashion. Either attached to Timbre, or maybe in the Cognitive Realm either on Rohsar or on Braize. It doesn't make sense for the next book to be Eshonai's flashbacks and only see through Venli's eyes in the present.

Edited November 16, 2017 by DiamondMind

[grinachu]

I think Eshonai will be "returned" as a Fused. 

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

I agree with everyone saying that Timbre is Captain Ico's daughter. The textual clues seem pretty clear.

I really liked Timbre and how she spoke only in Listener rhythms. I'm excited to see her and Venli develop in future books.

Captain Ico said his daughter went off to "chase dreams." Was bonding a Listener, specifically, that dream? If so, I want to know what caused her pursue that. She must be a relatively young spren, so she wouldn't remember the days before humans. What stories did she hear and from whom? Will there be other spren like her pursuing Listeners?