[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Not related to the above, but I finally finished by WoR reread last night, and I found these observations by Mraize to be interesting in light of the "which alter is the most dominant" discussion.  (Sorry if this has been pointed out before!)

 

It hasn't. Thank you! This is great. All these small hints.

[Ailvara]

40 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Not related to the above, but I finally finished by WoR reread last night, and I found these observations by Mraize to be interesting in light of the "which alter is the most dominant" discussion.  (Sorry if this has been pointed out before!)

I'm out of upvotes again, sorry. 

This is the second time we get poked in this direction, once per book. I think there is either one we missed in WoK (it'd be tough without Veil, but maybe there's something there) or we'll get third one in the next book right before it all goes off, for the sake of symmetry. 

[Rainier]

32 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Not related to the above, but I finally finished by WoR reread last night, and I found these observations by Mraize to be interesting in light of the "which alter is the most dominant" discussion. 

Butbutbutbut this is just desperate Shalladin shippers making stuff up out of whole cloth!

Spoiler

I try not to be mean-spirited, but I can't help it. These are exactly the kinds of things that the Shardcast people and many others who come into these threads simply don't address, or dismiss as irrelevant, when to you and me these are the giant red warning flags that something is not what it seems. Alas.

Yet another remark for the Veil-is-the-realest-Shallan pile, which seems to be growing. For all the disparagement of these endless shipping threads, we're on page 63 and I'm still picking up new hints and clues, with stuff like Veil-is-the-realest-Shallan one of the best from the most recent discussion.

[Draigon]

There is technically a "Veil" in WoK. It's the one in front of the Palanaeum. Basically the area you have pass through in order to gain knowledge, and the area in which Shallan spends most of her time in that book.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

@Rainier I understand and sympathize with the sentiment but expressing it and risking this wonderful thread isn't helping or contibuting to it. We mustn't let the standards of converstion drop and risk this turning into a battlefield. People clearly feel strongly and we should be mindful and respectful of that. Not trying to be patronizing or to deride you. I'm expressing the sincere desire that this discussion doesn't get derailed to meta subjects. I apologise if I somehow made you feel like I'm putting you down. Feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to express my concerns further and explain myself.

Edited December 21, 2017 by DimChatz

[Dreamstorm]

18 minutes ago, Draigon said:

There is technically a "Veil" in WoK. It's the one in front of the Palanaeum. Basically the area you have pass through in order to gain knowledge, and the area in which Shallan spends most of her time in that book.

So in WoK the Veil is literally the place where Shallan goes to find truth... 

@Rainier agreed! Despite the condescension (which does get to me at times!) this whole exercise has brought so much depth to these characters and made me appreciate even more Brandon's brilliance as a writer. As much as I can't wait for SA4, I hope he takes his time so we get another book we can pull apart at the seams to find this level of detail. 

[MonsterMetroid]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Not related to the above, but I finally finished by WoR reread last night, and I found these observations by Mraize to be interesting in light of the "which alter is the most dominant" discussion.  (Sorry if this has been pointed out before!)

 

Dang I was totally going to post this( i finished my reread a week ago) because I noticed that too, so fun because with Mraize being a worldhopper and a hunter it seems to me that he knows what he is talking about. I think I need to keep a notepad near my book to take notes so I dont forget things.

Edit: this reminded me of something else I got out of my reread.

Tyn thought Shallan was a conartist, Thats because she is. Shallan wont admit it but passing yourself off as wanting to be a ward for someone to steal a soulcaster. Thats a con! Convincing slavers that you are in a much better postion than you are. That's a con! Even the promise she fulfilled to the deserters. There was no way she could know she would get them pardoned. and after Tyn it becomes way more obvious. Shallan Thinks she is tricking these people but she Really is just deceiving herself

Edited December 21, 2017 by MonsterMetroid

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Tyn thought Shallan was a conartist, Thats because she is. Shallan wont admit it but passing yourself off as wanting to be a ward for someone to steal a soulcaster. Thats a con! Convincing slavers that you are in a much better postion than you are. That's a con! Even the promise she fulfilled to the deserters. There was no way she could know she would get them pardoned. and after Tyn it becomes way more obvious. Shallan Thinks she is tricking these people but she Really is just deceiving herself

And now all of this makes so much sense again:

Quote

“Tyn,” Shallan said, “Vathah and his men can be useful.”
Tyn shook her head, walking over to the side of the tent, pouring herself a cup of wine. “You should be proud of what you did here. You have barely any experience, yet you took over three separate groups, convincing them to put you—practically sphereless and completely without authority—in charge. Brilliant!
“But here’s the thing. The lies we tell, the dreams we create, they’re not real. We can’t let them be real. This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn.” She turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone. “When a good con woman dies, it’s usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps it going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then . . .”
Tyn dropped the cup. It hit the ground, the wine splashing bloodred across the tent floor and Tyn’s rug.
Red carpet . . . once it was white . . .

(WoR, Chapter 34, Blossoms and Cake)

 

[GoddessIMHO]

After all the discussion here on what would happen baby-wise with Shallan being married we have 2! articles on Tor.com about birth control in fantasy by Sean Connolly and divorce in fantasy bu Anise K. Strong.

 

 

[Vissy]

God, I hope Shallan and Adolin won't have a kid by the beginning of the next book. It would be so, so, so stupid.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Vissy

[Dreamstorm]

11 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

After all the discussion here on what would happen baby-wise with Shallan being married we have 2! articles on Tor.com about birth control in fantasy by Sean Connolly and divorce in fantasy bu Anise K. Strong.

Can you post links? I'm interested in what they say!

[analyticaposteriori]

9 minutes ago, Vissy said:

God, I hope Shallan and Adolin won't have a kid by the beginning of the next book. It would be so, so, so stupid.

and yet - what better reason to do the time skip other than to bypass the plot-inconvenient pregnancy 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

and yet - what better reason to do the time skip other than to bypass the plot-inconvenient pregnancy 

Please no.

Imagining Shallan as a mother right now makes me physically cringe.

[GoddessIMHO]

23 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Can you post links? I'm interested in what they say!

For meta discussion purposes.

https://www.tor.com/2017/12/18/five-fantastical-contraceptives-and-why-we-need-more/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_term=tordotcom-tordotcomnewsletter&utm_content=na-readblog-blogpost&utm_campaign=tor

https://www.tor.com/2017/08/08/beyond-happily-ever-after-divorce-should-be-an-option-in-fantasy-fiction/

 

[Dreamstorm]

@GoddessIMHO boarding a flight so about to go dark (won't survive... ), but loaded these links! Thanks!

[Dahak he/him]

On 20/11/2017 at 6:57 PM, PlanetReelo said:

The point is, the 'arranged marriage working out' thing is an overused trope because BS himself keeps using it.

Elend's arranged marriage end so well didn't it?

[Vissy]

Oh storm, I actually... totally forgot that that was an arranged marriage. So if this is going to be a "mimicry of something that happened before", then Kaladin is going to kill Adolin just as he's awakening his Odium-Edgedancing in an epic Surgebinder duel and then he will end up together with Shallan?

... okay that doesn't make any sense. 

What else could that "mimicry of something that happened before" WoB refer to anyway? What other similar types of thing have happened before? Have we ever compiled a list?

 

[Ailvara]

10 hours ago, Vissy said:

Oh storm, I actually... totally forgot that that was an arranged marriage. So if this is going to be a "mimicry of something that happened before", then Kaladin is going to kill Adolin just as he's awakening his Odium-Edgedancing in an epic Surgebinder duel and then he will end up together with Shallan?

... okay that doesn't make any sense. 

What else could that "mimicry of something that happened before" WoB refer to anyway? What other similar types of thing have happened before? Have we ever compiled a list?

I haven't actually thought about it being a mimicry of something not in-world... I suppose a SA reference would make more impact, but who knows really. 

The suggestions that have been discussed are Dalinar-Navani-Gavilar, Odium-Cultivation-Honor and, most supported right now as far as I know, Evi-Dalinar-Navani. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I haven't actually thought about it being a mimicry of something not in-world... I suppose a SA reference would make more impact, but who knows really. 

The suggestions that have been discussed are Dalinar-Navani-Gavilar, Odium-Cultivation-Honor and, most supported right now as far as I know, Evi-Dalinar-Navani. 

To elaborate @Vissy, the idea is, that Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin resemble those triangles.

The obvious one with Dalinar-Navani-Gavilar is, that Dalinar = Kaladin, Navani = Shallan and Gavilar = Adolin, because of how Navani said, that Dalinar was too frightening for her, when she was asked why she chose Gavilar back then. Shallan sometimes made similar hints towards how she finds Kaladin's passion frightening.

I don't remember talking about Odium-Cultivation-Honor though

Evi-Dalinar-Navani was an idea, that @DimChatz brought in and which I can actually see as being probable.

So, Evi = Adolin, Shallan = Dalinar and Kaladin = Navani.

Quote

Adolin like Evi is a genuinely good person but, in Ialai's word's about Evi, a bit vapid who try to help their partner the best they can (Evi consoling Dalinar and telling him that he doesn't have to be like a beast/ Adolin being, well, Adolin with Shallan). Shallan is the one pressured into the marriage by Jasnah and Navani, while Dalinar is pressured by friends and family, with the added bonus that they both have some kind of mental issue and they both idly fantasize about Kaladin and Navani respectively, but in the end they give in to the internal and external pressure. Regarding the connection between Kaladin and Navani I don't  have much due to the lack of prespective from Navani, just that the odd looks she gave Dalinar vaguely fit with Kaladin and his actions, and the fact that Navani has said, in The Way of Kings, how much she hated how Evi seemed to fit Dalinar so perfectly, a sentiment that Kaladin has also expressed in regards to Adolin and Shallan.

So what does this hold for the future? Well, I think that Shallan will continue to ridicule Kaladin as Dalinar attempted to freeze out Navani, giving the wrong message (That he hated her.) and that Kaladin will make the safe choice regarding his romantic life, whether it'll contain a partner or not.

Source: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62422-ob-adolin-shallan-kaladin-discussion/?page=18#comment-640726

Just a bit more detail

Edited December 22, 2017 by SLNC
added typo fixes

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Evi-Dalinar-Navani was an idea, that @DimChatz brought in and which I can actually see as being probable.

So, Evi = Adolin, Shallan = Dalinar and Kaladin = Navani.

Quote

 

Adolin like Evi is a genuinely good person but, in Ialai's word's about Evi, a bit vapid who try to help their partner the best they can (Evi consoling Dalinar and telling him that he doesn't have to be like a beast/ Adolin being, well, Adolin with Shallan). Shallan is the one pressured into the marriage by Jasnah and Navani, while Dalinar is pressured by friends and family, with the added bonus that they both have some kind of mental issue and they both idly fantasize about Kaladin and Navani respectively, but in the end they give in to the internal and external pressure. Regarding the connection between Kaladin and Navani I don't  have much due to the lack of prespective from Navani, just that the odd looks she gave Dalinar vaguely fit with Kaladin and his actions, and the fact that Navani has said, in The Way of Kings, how much she hated how Evi seemed to fit Dalinar so perfectly, a sentiment that Kaladin has also expressed in regards to Adolin and Shallan.

So what does this hold for the future? Well, I think that Shallan will continue to ridicule Kaladin as Dalinar attempted to freeze out Navani, giving the wrong message (That he hated her.) and that Kaladin will make the safe choice regarding his romantic life, whether it'll contain a partner or not.

 

Source: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62422-ob-adolin-shallan-kaladin-discussion/?page=18#comment-640726

I should go and fix those typos at some point... I just noticed them. I mean who's Balinar? Dalinar's off brand cousin?

Edited December 22, 2017 by DimChatz
Typos hopefully fixed... Until someone else quotes it again and I notice new ones. Are they propagating? I swear some of them were not there last time I checked...

[GoddessIMHO]

I feel the need to bring up the 'arranged' marriage again. Neither Navani nor Shallan was really forced into their marriages. Shallan was eager when Jasnah suggested it.  I don't know how Navani was selected but she was clearly able to decide which brother to marry.  I suspect her marriage likely had some political advantage for bringing her family in on the side of the Kholins just as Evi brought the plate.  Evi was there looking for a possible marriage to find protection for her and her brother. 

Just because an Alethi woman didn't marry for love it doesn't mean she might not have wanted the match . I just remembered that Jasnah was asked to marry Amaram and she was able to refuse even though Gavilar,  her father and her king, wanted it. The women in Alethkar had at least some power of choice.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

3 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I feel the need to bring up the 'arranged' marriage again. Neither Navani nor Shallan was really forced into their marriages. Shallan was eager when Jasnah suggested it.  I don't know how Navani was selected but she was clearly able to decide which brother to marry.  I suspect her marriage likely had some political advantage for bringing her family in on the side of the Kholins just as Evi brought the plate.  Evi was there looking for a possible marriage to find protection for her and her brother. 

When I say forced into the arrange marriage I mean by circumstance. When Jasnah proposed the arranged marriage it was primarily to bring Shallan into the family and to provide protection for her family. Do you think under those circumstances Shallan good have refused such generous offer? How else would she have protected her brothers? Not to mention she looks up to Jasnah and and the latter has quite a lot of onfluence on her decision making ("What would Jasnah do?"). So I don't think it would be so easy for Shallan to refuse her even if she had the nclination to. Not to mention that at that point she was under Jasnah's power and she believed she needed her to teach her soulcasting to help with the return of Voidbringers. Also, she had just come of a traumatic relationship, and jumped into a safe one with the "perfect" prince immediately. That could have played a part into her choice. "I have just been hurt by a relationship but that sounds like a good one, not to mention all the political benefits and that it may help with the fight ahead. Also, Jasnah thinks it's a good idea and Jasnah is always right".

3 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Just because an Alethi woman didn't marry for love it doesn't mean she might not have wanted the match

Does this include Veden women as well perhaps? 

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by DimChatz

[insert_anagram_here]

Well if Evi is Shallan and Dalinar is Adolin and Navani is Kaladin, we end up with Kadolin and everyone wins! xD

[Guest]

@GoddessIMHO

Shallan definitely gets manipulated psychologically.

When she made that perfect sketch of Kaladin during the meeting and Jasnah notices, Jasnah heavily guilt-trips her. 

Quote

Jasnah sighed softly, opening up the sketchpad again. “Shallan,” she said in a strangely . . . comforting tone. “I’m impressed. I am impressed, truly. But what I’ve heard of you recently is troubling. You’ve ingratiated yourself with my family, and made good on the causal betrothal to Adolin. Yet here you are with wandering eyes, as this sketch testifies.”

It is basically telling her, that she should remember her place, remember what she could lose and that marrying Adolin will be required to remain in Jasnahs (and the Kholin's) favor. And it has an effect. She pushes off any feelings she had for Kaladin to Veil.

Same goes for how Navani is trying to push Shallan into marrying Adolin quickly under the pre-tense of "stability". Which also has an effect on Shallan, because that is exactly why she chooses Adolin in the end.

Bottom line is, the Kholins (well, Navani and Jasnah) are obviously trying to bring Shallan into the family and fast, because she is now a person with power and are using manipulation to reach that goal. Especially Jasnah's guilt-trip is just disgusting.

[Ailvara]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Bottom line is, the Kholins (well, Navani and Jasnah) are obviously trying to bring Shallan into the family and fast, because she is now a person with power and are using manipulation to reach that goal. Especially Jasnah's guilt-trip is just disgusting.

I mostly agree with what you've said, but I don't believe either Navani or Jasnah did anything in bad faith. Navani has no idea of Shallan's internal struggles, she only knows she agreed to the causal and seemed quite happy ever since. Jasnah has some insight, but on the other hand, she is a creature of reason and I think she genuinely believes Adolin is alright for Shallan while at the same time, her knowledge of Shallan's dilemmas is insufficient and she is ignoring her deeper feelings and dilemmas as something she considers a passing and unreasonable fancy. It's the same as with Adolin, really. He wants the best even if accidentally stabilizing Shallan's fracturing.