[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Humming]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Of course, he is lying to himself at the end of OB. "I never liked/loved him/her anyway" is a typical coping mechanism for rejection.

Yeah but for some reason people like to dismiss the early chapters pointing at these feelings he has, and give importance to what he said about not loving her as an excuse.

[Ailvara]

25 minutes ago, Humming said:

Quote

“She brought her handmaid on a scouting mission. She couldn’t go a week without someone to do her hair. You think I’d be interested in that?”

“Think?” Syl said. She took the shape of a tiny young woman in a girlish dress, flying through the sky before him. “I know. Don’t think I don’t spot you stealing looks.” She smirked.

Reminder that Syl is the one who truly knows Kaladin. Is this a hint that he lies to himself and the end of OB?

I would like to highlight the fact, that to dismiss his feelings he specifically uses an argument that is so hilariously and hugely false. 

[smokeesid]

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I would like to highlight the fact, that to dismiss his feelings he specifically uses an argument that is so hilariously and hugely false. 

He stated that she reminds him of someone. Some traits that are common but not completely. 

 

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

Of course, he is lying to himself at the end of OB. "I never liked/loved him/her anyway" is a typical coping mechanism for rejection.

It is, but there he was in agreement with the event. Liking is one thing, loving is the other. He never made a suggestion to get to know her. He was encouraging her way of pretending to escape her pain which was not so healthy to her and opposite of what Adolin was trying to do

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

He stated that she reminds him of someone. Some traits that are common but not completely. 

He means that she reminds him of how Tien could brighten his mood, but that is nothing new, he already stated that in the chasm. In fact, that is one part of why he is attracted to Shallan in the first place.

32 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

It is, but there he was in agreement with the event. Liking is one thing, loving is the other. He never made a suggestion to get to know her. He was encouraging her way of pretending to escape her pain which was not so healthy to her and opposite of what Adolin was trying to do

No, he wasn't. He simply said, that he would do the same if he could. This is not encouragement, but a simple statement of fact. Shallan inferred, that he encourages her, when he only said "Well, what ever you're doing seems to be working and I wish I could do the same." Simple statements of fact. Kaladin is not responsible for what Shallan infers from that.

Adolin is encouraging her to use Veil and Radiant by becoming drinking buddies with Veil and continuing to spar with Radiant. He is not doing the opposite, in fact, he is enabling her.

How could he 'get to know her'? Adolin was always in between. In his inner monologue, Kaladin more than once states, that he would like to spend time with Shallan, but he can't because of Adolin always standing between. It is a tricky situation.

Edited December 27, 2017 by SLNC

[Ailvara]

30 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

He stated that she reminds him of someone. Some traits that are common but not completely. 

In this case I meant that particular bit I quoted. That he couldn't be interested in a girl who would need a maid to do her hair on a special mission. 

[smokeesid]

46 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He means that she reminds him of how Tien could brighten his mood, but that is nothing new, he already stated that in the chasm. In fact, that is one part of why he is attracted to Shallan in the first place.

No, he wasn't. He simply said, that he would do the same if he could. This is not encouragement, but a simple statement of fact. Shallan inferred, that he encourages her, when he only said "Well, what ever you're doing seems to be working and I wish I could do the same." Simple statements of fact. Kaladin is not responsible for what Shallan infers from that.

5

Shallan didn't infer anything. She just didn't want to talk about that topic more than that. But Kaladin didn't try to understand her problems, he is besieged by his own to a great extent. Adolin enjoys and could lighten her burdens and make her progress.

46 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Adolin is encouraging her to use Veil and Radiant by becoming drinking buddies with Veil and continuing to spar with Radiant. He is not doing the opposite, in fact, he is enabling her.

How could he 'get to know her'? Adolin was always in between. In his inner monologue, Kaladin more than once states, that he would like to spend time with Shallan, but he can't because of Adolin always standing between. It is a tricky situation.

Adolin was unknowingly doing that. Later he didn't. Kaladin didn't try even in the normal conversations like a friend does

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

Adolin was unknowingly doing that. Later he didn't. Kaladin didn't try even in the normal conversations like a friend does

And why? Because his ceremonious chanting of "She is Adolin's betrothed". I never said, that it was Adolin fault, but he is who is standing between them. Adolin is the reason, why Kaladin doesn't want to act on any urges he has.

Adolin becomes drinking buddies with Veil, after knowing, that Shallan is fractured. That is not unknowingly doing it.

13 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

Shallan didn't infer anything. She just didn't want to talk about that topic more than that. But Kaladin didn't try to understand her problems, he is besieged by his own to a great extent. Adolin enjoys and could lighten her burdens and make her progress.

She did. She uses it as a convenient reason to convince herself, that Adolin is right and "safe" choice.

I don't think, that Adolin will make her progress. The fractured self, that Shallan is now, is directly in conflict with the Lightweaver's path to attain self-awareness. How can she be self-aware if she doesn't have a complete self to be aware of? Every truth she'd speak now would only be valid for the shade of Shallan, that she is now or any of her personalities, when in reality she is still one person, that is Shallan + Veil + Radiant. She is still one individual in the Spiritual Realm. It is all in her head.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Shallan's personas. How would they be viewed in the Spiritual Realm? Would they be an individual? Or would they be seen as being slightly separate?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They would be seen as an individual.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262-oathbringer-glasgow-signing/#e8785

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by SLNC

[BraidedRose]

@insert_anagram_here whoops, I better stop being the Adolin to your Shallan and enabling your madness . Now what I am going to do with all of this tin foil?

Seriously though, I think you are at least right about Shallan being the definition of an unreliable narrator and there are a lot of unanswered questions about her childhood. At least there is good reason to doubt that the light she sees is Pattern. 

[smokeesid]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

And why? Because his ceremonious chanting of "She is Adolin's betrothed". I never said, that it was Adolin fault, but he is who is standing between them. Adolin is the reason, why Kaladin doesn't want to act on any urges he has.

 

Acting on an urge is not Kaladin's forte. And there is nothing wrong with talking to her like a friend does no matter the way you look at each other. He is simply not that interested. If he was, he wouldn't have cared if Adolin is there like he didn't care about him while stealing looks on Shallan

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Adolin becomes drinking buddies with Veil, after knowing, that Shallan is fractured. That is not unknowingly doing it.

 

He didn't know that Shallan was trying to be someone else. After the fight in Thaylena, he holds and embraces Shallan when she is in control and being herself. He straight away encourages Shallan to be who she is multiple times(in the boat in Shadesmar and after the final fight). right at the time of her marriage, the result can be seen. She was enjoying being herself while marrying Adolin. 

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

She did. She uses it as a convenient reason to convince herself, that Adolin is right and "safe" choice.

I don't think, that Adolin will make her progress. The fractured self, that Shallan is now, is directly in conflict with the Lightweaver's path to attain self-awareness. How can she be self-aware if she doesn't have a complete self to be aware of? Every truth she'd speak now would only be valid for the shade of Shallan, that she is now or any of her personalities, when in reality she is still one person, that is Shallan + Veil + Radiant. She is still one individual in the Spiritual Realm. It is all in her head.

 

1

She is coping up with stress. And it's a dire environment along with her recollection of her past. Everything is happening all at once. This intense amount of pretense, with her marriage, is healing as it seems

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

If he was, he wouldn't have cared if Adolin is there like he didn't care about him while stealing looks on Shallan

He is feeling guilty for exactly doing that, so he doesn't act upon his feelings.

4 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

He didn't know that Shallan was trying to be someone else. After the fight in Thaylena, he holds and embraces Shallan when she is in control and being herself. He straight away encourages Shallan to be who she is multiple times(in the boat in Shadesmar and after the final fight). right at the time of her marriage, the result can be seen. She was enjoying being herself while marrying Adolin. 

Wrong.

Shallan outright tells him.

Quote

She closed her eyes and tried to pull herself together. “Which one do you like the most?” she finally asked. “Veil is the one who wears the white outfit, but I’m having trouble with her right now. She peeks out sometimes when I don’t want, but then won’t come when I need her. Radiant is the one who practices with the sword. I made her prettier than the others, and you can talk to her about dueling. But some of the time, I’ll have to be someone who can Lightweave. I’m trying to think of who she should be. . . .”

Oathbringer, Chapter 108

The thing is... what Adolin thinks is Shallan... isn't really Shallan. She is just a mask, all prettied up for him.

Quote

I can be anyone, Shallan thought, noticing a few joyspren blowing past, like a swirl of blue leaves. I can become anything. Adolin deserved someone far better than her. Could she . . . become that someone? Craft for him the perfect bride, a woman that looked and acted as befitted Adolin Kholin? It wouldn’t be her. The real her was a bruised and sorry thing, painted up all pretty, but inside a horrid mess. She already put a face over that for him. Why not go a few steps farther? Radiant . . . Radiant could be his perfect bride, and she did like him.

Oathbringer, Chapter 77

Adolin says, that he likes what he is seeing on the inside, when he has never seen it before. Storms, he's just as afraid of messing all of that up, so I don't blame him for saying that, but I'm not convinced, that he really means it or knows what Shallan means with "the broken mess inside".

14 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

She is coping up with stress. And it's a dire environment along with her recollection of her past. Everything is happening all at once. This intense amount of pretense, with her marriage, is healing as it seems

I agree, but she isn't healing. She is just using Adolin to anchor this prettied up mask as her dominant personality, which is a band-aid solution. She needs to reintegrate. personaShallan, which is the one that marries Adolin, is a far cry from the Shallan we have seen in WoK and WoR. Just compare them. All of those traits, that she is missing now (confidence, pragmatism, boldness) are transferred to Veil and Radiant. Broken off from her real self.

It is a coping mechanism, but I don't really see a healing process.

[Humming]

Quote

Kaladin, the storming bridgeman, stood at the bow of the ship, surrounded by glowing lines of light. They illuminated his heroic figure—determined, undaunted, one hand on the prow’s flagpole, wearing his crisp Wall Guard uniform. The ship’s spren gazed upon him as if he were a storming Herald come to announce the reclamation of the Tranquiline Halls.

Just ahead of him, Shallan seemed to change. It was in her bearing, the way she stopped resting lightly on one foot, and stood solidly on two feet instead. The way her posture shifted.

And the way that she seemed to melt upon seeing Kaladin, lips rising to a grin. Blushing, she adopted a fond—even eager—expression.

Adolin breathed out slowly. He’d caught those glimpses from her before—and seen the sketches of Kaladin in her book—but looking at her now, he couldn’t deny what he was seeing. She was practically leering.

“I need to draw that,” she said. But she just stood there instead, staring at him. Adolin sighed and made his way up onto the high deck. Seemed they weren’t forbidden here any longer.

He joined Pattern, who had come up another set of steps, and was humming happily to himself.

“Kind of hard to compete with that, ” Adolin noted.

Did someone analyse this fragment? I'd love to read his point of view.

I find interesting that Adolins feels no jealousy, not even a bit, he just feels... acceptance? (Kinda like Kaladin feels later when Shallan did her choice). He is so kind that jealousy is almost unknown to him. One can only feel bad for him reading these lines. Adolin truly cares about Shallan, and about Kaladin too.

[Guest]

Its funny really... I always thought, that Shallan's change was Veil emerging, but...

Quote

“I need to draw that,” she said. But she just stood there instead, staring at him.

Makes me think it was really more Shallan in that moment... Veil alone would never think about drawing then. Or maybe it was a mixture of both? More like the real Shallan? More complete?

[MonsterMetroid]

Just now, SLNC said:

Makes me think it was really more Shallan in that moment... Veil alone would never think about drawing then. Or maybe it was a mixture of both? More like the real Shallan? More complete?

Yeah, I think this is a real Shallan glimpse or at least a portion. She has let all pretenses fall because of her amazement she has stopped portraying lies because she forgets anyone is watching. 

[Humming]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Its funny really... I always thought, that Shallan's change was Veil emerging, but...

Makes me think it was really more Shallan in that moment... Veil alone would never think about drawing then. Or maybe it was a mixture of both? More like the real Shallan? More complete?

Yeah, the part where she stands firmly in both feet, the posture in general, reminded me of Veil so I assumed that the persona was taking over. But Veil would never have the impulse to draw something, so it could either Shallan peeked from Veil's inside, or that it was never Veil in that scene, it was Shallan (the real Shallan, not the mask).

[Rainier]

52 minutes ago, Humming said:

Yeah, the part where she stands firmly in both feet, the posture in general, reminded me of Veil so I assumed that the persona was taking over.

You mean at this point she's the girl who stood up? The whole Shallan that Hoid is encouraging her to become, or allow to reemerge? We haven't seen many glimpses of whole-Shallan, but I think you're right, this is one of them. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I'm just amazed that this thread is 66 pages long. The wordcount from here will soon equal that of Oathbringer. Keep it up, and tag me when you are celebrating a 100 pages!

Edited December 28, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[Dreamstorm]

14 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You mean at this point she's the girl who stood up? The whole Shallan that Hoid is encouraging her to become, or allow to reemerge? We haven't seen many glimpses of whole-Shallan, but I think you're right, this is one of them. 

This is my slam dunk symbolism (here and when Adolin chooses maskShallan and then she stands when Kaladin lands on the wall) that truly converted me to Shalladin  I do not see how one can get past this unless you feel Brandon is a truly sloppy writer...

[Darvys]

The bit about drawing him and how it was said was actually what convinced me it was Veil, that was as close as Brandon could get to an "i want a piece of that". Real Shallan would have been more reserved than that i figure, but who knows.

[Dreamstorm]

24 minutes ago, Darvys said:

The bit about drawing him and how it was said was actually what convinced me it was Veil, that was as close as Brandon could get to an "i want a piece of that". Real Shallan would have been more reserved than that i figure, but who knows.

Shallan’s desire to draw is a fundamental part of her character. As far as drawing being a compulsion or “need”, this seems to be associated with things which intensely fascinate her (e.g. arriving stormwall and face of the Stormfather - see quotes below) and I wouldn’t say it is necessarily sexual unless you read into the “Shallan in a highstorm” scenes as being sexual metaphors. (There’s an argument for that though. That argument follows through that Adolin “pull her back from the brink” and Kaladin “rides through it with her” if you want to go down that path )

Quote

She’d never been so close to a highstorm. Even when she’d been only inches away from one, separated by a window shutter, she had not been as close as she was now. Watching that darkness descend upon the warcamps . . .

I need to draw.

“Shallan!” Adolin said, pulling her away from the railing. “They’ll close the doors if we don’t go now!”

WoR, Ch. 49, Watching the World Transform

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“Kelek’s breath!” Shallan said. “What was that?”

“You saw the face?” Kaladin asked.

“Yes. So vast . . . I could see stars in it, stars upon stars, infinity . . .”

“The Stormfather,” Kaladin said, tired. He reached around beneath him for something that was suddenly glowing. A sphere, the one Shallan had dropped earlier. It had gone dun, but was now renewed.

“That was amazing,” she whispered. “I need to draw it.”

WoR, Ch. 74, Striding the Storm

 

[Vissy]

Someone seriously needs to bring that Shallan / Kaladin chasm scene sexual innuendo theory in front of Brandon. XD

[Rainier]

17 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

That argument follows through that Adolin “pull her back from the brink” and Kaladin “rides through it with her” if you want to go down that path

Not sure how I missed the sexual innuendo but when you do a little editing for brevity, you get this.

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"Stormfather,” Kaladin said, tired.

“That was amazing,” she whispered.

When you put it that way...

[Humming]

Quote

“We need to approach this from a logical position,” Radiant said. “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months, ever since those days we spent in the chasms with Stormblessed. I’ve begun to consider that a relationship between two Knights Radiant is likely to accomplish a more equitable union.”

“Also,” Veil added, “look at those eyes. Simmering with barely bridled emotion.” She walked toward him, grinning.

Then slowed. Adolin knows me.

What was she doing?

She shoved Radiant and Veil aside, and when they resisted, she stuffed them into the back part of her brain. They were not her. She was occasionally them. But they were not her.

Kaladin hesitated on the wall walk, but Shallan just gave him a wave, then went the other way, tired—but determined.

The more I re-read Part 5, the more confused I am. 

Shallan is not healed, it's her real being, definitely. This scene is pointless if she just repairs the fracture or begins to repair it by pushing her personas again to the bottom of her mind. Why spend countless ocassions in the book hinting that she's just a facade built to keep up with the environment she got it and to avoid being hurt (and to hurt) again if you are going to throw all that development into a rushed wedding.

Even Evi's metaphors made more sense than that wedding.

Special mention to the 'They were not her. She was occasionally them. But they were not her.' Yeah, of course you're not them, because you are a mask too, real Shallan is hidden by you 3.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Humming

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Humming said:

The more I re-read Part 5, the more confused I am. 

Shallan is not healed, it's her real being, definitely. This scene is pointless if she just repairs the fracture or begins to repair it by pushing her personas again to the bottom of her mind. Why spend countless ocassions in the book hinting that she's just a facade built to keep up with the environment she got it and to avoid being hurt (and to hurt) again if you are going to throw all that development into a rushed wedding.

You just gotta just give into the Shalladin! Not even kidding though, once I came around to Shalladin being the end goal, all of my issues around this romantic plot went away. It's fake and rushed, because it actually is a fake and rushed (bad) decision for the character. But once I gave in, I could then appreciate these pretty adorbs little moments like the below. Not only do we have a bubbly enthusiastic Shallan, but also a mention of this delightful contrast that Brandon (through Wit and Shallan) so loves...

Quote

A moment later, the building itself flashed—a ring of Stormlight running around it, like the afterimage of a firebrand being waved in the dark. Then Kaladin and Shallan emerged from the doorway.

“It worked!” Shallan said as she bounced out, bubbling over with eagerness. In contrast, Kaladin stepped out with a firm gait.

OB, Ch. 58, Burdens 

Contrast quotes:

Quote

“Human taste is as varied as human fingerprints,” Wit said. “Nobody will like everything, everybody dislikes something, someone loves that thing you hate—but at least being hated is better than nothing. To risk metaphor, a grand painting is often about contrast: brightest brights, darkest darks. Not grey mush. That a thing is hated is not proof that it’s great art, but the lack of hatred is certainly proof that it is not.”

OB, Epilogue, Great Art

Quote

“Be careful,” she said, hopping over a fallen log. “That was almost like a smile—and earlier this morning, I could swear that you were cheerful. Well, mildly content. Anyway, if you start to be in a better mood, it will destroy the whole variety of this trip.”

“Variety?” he asked.

“Yes. If we’re both pleasant, there’s no artistry to it. You see, great art is a matter of contrast. Some lights and some darks. The happy, smiling, radiant lady and the dark, brooding, malodorous bridgeman.”

“That—” He stopped. “Malodorous?”

“A great figure painting,” she said, “shows the hero with inherent contrast—strong, yet hinting at vulnerability, so that the viewer can relate to him. Your little problem would make for a dynamic contrast.”

“How would you even convey that in a painting?” Kaladin said, frowning. “Besides, I’m not malodorous.”

“Oh, so you’re getting better? Yay!”

He looked at her, dumbfounded.

“Confusion,” she said. “I will graciously take that as a sign that you’re amazed that I can be so humorous at such an early hour.” She leaned in conspiratorially, whispering. “I’m really not very witty. You just happen to be stupid, so it seems that way. Contrast, remember?”

WoR, Ch. 70, From a Nightmare 

 

[Humming]

@Dreamstorm I hope that all of that development is a Chekhov's gun and not wasted pages for some cheap drama. 

[Vissy]

I've been browsing other Stormlight communities, like the one on Reddit (and even reviews of Oathbringer) and it's kind of disappointing that nobody else has seen any of what we've talked about here. Most commenters I've seen are either praising the resolution of the book to the heavens or disappointed with it entirely, due to being boring in the middle section.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Vissy