[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[DeployParachute]

@DimChatz

Don't think you posted the right links in your summary regarding your popular theory. Or at least when I clicked then they didn't take me to them.

Anyway, great job on the summary. Any chance I could get a copy of the feedback that was sent?

Edited December 14, 2017 by DeployParachute

[GoddessIMHO]

I will likely not ever be somewhere that I can ask Brandon a question. If any of you are it seems like asking what state Pattern is in at the end of OB would be useful information. Is being drowsy the sign that he is fading/dying? The WOB that says she is better but still has a way to go doesn't give us a "level of danger" that knowing Pattern's state would.

[Guest]

Yeah, that would be a great question, but I'd guess, that it would be RAFO'd.

[Ailvara]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, that would be a great question, but I'd guess, that it would be RAFO'd.

If it's RAFO'd that's the answer  

@DimChatz I've been thinking on making a summary for a while, but for some reason, I didn't feel like diving again into all our issues and feelings regarding this particular resolution... Now that's done you inspired me to make a summary of our theories, observations regarding foreshadowings etc  I'm not much an essay person, it'll be in the form of notes. It's already 9 pages, I aimed for much shorter, but with the quotes... I'll post it in a few hours I think.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

Don't think you posted the right links in your summary regarding your popular theory. Or at least when I clicked then they didn't take me to them.

That's strange... It takes me right to it. November 22 page 18, Theory regarding  who is who in the triangle posted by me...

50 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

@DimChatz I've been thinking on making a summary for a while, but for some reason, I didn't feel like diving again into all our issues and feelings regarding this particular resolution... Now that's done you inspired me to make a summary of our theories, observations regarding foreshadowings etc  I'm not much an essay person, it'll be in the form of notes. It's already 9 pages, I aimed for much shorter, but with the quotes... I'll post it in a few hours I think.

Yay! I inspired someone! Do it! Mine is more like a quick Previously on... so, yes, having something longer and more comprehensive will also be good.

Edited December 14, 2017 by DimChatz

[Ailvara]

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing 

I'll leave it in "everybody can edit" mode for now in case I overlooked something important or you have a quote to add! I'll probably later change it to "anybody can comment" so that we don't get attacked by any trolls.

It needs some polishing, but like I said, it's not an essay, but a note. Also, I kind of concentrated on the topics that I felt were more in line with the main topic, overlooking mostly the discussion f.ex. on Shallan becoming a mother or deep analysis of Adolin's character. If you disagree with this approach, please feel free to add or rephrase anything.

I think that @DimChatz summary would work well as the introduction, for example, but I won't go as far with copying other people's posts, unless you want to include it  Anyway, this is wholly a group work, I only summarize because I'm a notes freak.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

@Ailvara Amazing work! I've just begun it and I'm already atounded by the effort you have put. So many information and annotations... Love it!

[Guest]

@Ailvara Great, great work! This will be a useful reference.

@Harbour Maybe put the link in the OP?

[Dreamstorm]

2 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing 

I'll leave it in "everybody can edit" mode for now in case I overlooked something important or you have a quote to add! I'll probably later change it to "anybody can comment" so that we don't get attacked by any trolls.

It needs some polishing, but like I said, it's not an essay, but a note. Also, I kind of concentrated on the topics that I felt were more in line with the main topic, overlooking mostly the discussion f.ex. on Shallan becoming a mother or deep analysis of Adolin's character. If you disagree with this approach, please feel free to add or rephrase anything.

I think that @DimChatz summary would work well as the introduction, for example, but I won't go as far with copying other people's posts, unless you want to include it  Anyway, this is wholly a group work, I only summarize because I'm a notes freak.

This is AMAZING.  I love, love, love all of the footnotes with actual quotes from the book.  Btw, I think it's actually stronger as a note with the source quotes because that makes it less about your (or any of our) opinions, and more about what is actually in the text.  Hopefully you can leave it open for a couple days so we can see what other quotes can be added?  (I personally won't be able to really dig into it until tomorrow and I really want to!)

Also, is this something we (you? - I'd be fine doing just you since you did the work or a collective group, whichever you prefer) should send to Brandon?

ETA:  I lied and already made a couple edits and added some quotes but want to add more.  There are so many quotes in support it's amazing!!

Edited December 14, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Ailvara]

Thank you for all feedback, it makes me feel so much better about being way too invested in the life of fictional characters  

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

@Ailvara Great, great work! This will be a useful reference.

@Harbour Maybe put the link in the OP?

I guess that would be great, or in a few pages, newcomers will be as confused as ever.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

This is AMAZING.  I love, love, love all of the footnotes with actual quotes from the book.  Btw, I think it's actually stronger as a note with the source quotes because that makes it less about your (or any of our) opinions, and more about what is actually in the text.  Hopefully you can leave it open for a couple days so we can see what other quotes can be added?  (I personally won't be able to really dig into it until tomorrow and I really want to!)

Also, is this something we (you? - I'd be fine doing just you since you did the work or a collective group, whichever you prefer) should send to Brandon?

1

I was thinking about shutting it tomorrow, but I guess I can leave it open longer and make more backups in the meantime. Even once I close it, it'll still be open to comments and then I can copy-paste them

I never really considered writing to Brandon, because before joining the forums I didn't even know it was possible! So I don't know exactly is this is the sort of stuff people send him, but if he would like to read it, wow, it'd be awesome.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Ailvara

[Guest]

Just now, Ailvara said:

I was thinking about shutting it tomorrow, but I guess I can leave it open longer and make more backups in the meantime. Even once I close it, it'll still be open to comments and then I can copy-paste them

I think, that would be for the best. Let others add comments and then add them to the document. Or give certain persons rights to edit.

[Dreamstorm]

22 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I was thinking about shutting it tomorrow, but I guess I can leave it open longer and make more backups in the meantime. Even once I close it, it'll still be open to comments and then I can copy-paste them

Whatever works best for you!  The one substantive thing I thought about changing I added a note for, besides that it was just adding additional quotes in support or slightly elaborating on some things, but you wouldn't want people coming in and deleting!

22 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I never really considered writing to Brandon, because before joining the forums I didn't even know it was possible! So I don't know exactly is this is the sort of stuff people send him, but if he would like to read it, wow, it'd be awesome.

I have no clue because I'm new to this to, but I guess if I was an author and someone clearly spent so much time analyzing the text of my writing and crafting an argument around it?  I'd think that was amazing.  I know he gets "opinion" pieces on how people feel about what happened or what they want to happen, but I would find something which required so much effort to find textual support versus just giving an opinion to be awesome.  But then again, that's also just my opinion   (I also remain in awe of this compilation.  Like this can be converted to a legal brief for the argument with minimal effort.  Ok, crazy idea, but once it's done, I could even put it into an amicus brief format (example here: https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/preview/publiced_preview_briefs_pdfs_07_08_07_588_PetitionerAmCupacificlegal.authcheckdam.pdf) and add citations (I have all three hardcovers for cites) and everything.  Ok, this is the nerdiest idea ever so feel free to shut it down )

Edited December 14, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Calyx]

I think the "Shalladin Manifesto" title fits this very well, and I admire the work put into it (seriously, it looks like a lot of work - great job!)

But as a person who cares about Shallan quite a bit more than I do Kaladin - and favors her relationship with Adolin, who is clearly better than both of them - I don't find it convincing. When I read many of the quotes, I arrive at the opposite interpretation. One specific objection I have is to the argument that neither we nor Adolin has seen realShallan - I think realShallan is occasionally present. Think of times where what seems to be personaShallan acts decisively with confidence, or is very scholarly (i.e. at the zoo, or on the shattered plains, both times she kind of leaves Adolin behind). This is realShallan, and Adolin has caught glimpses of her.

Some constructive criticism - I think you should have a brief key at the beginning defining terms, i.e. personaShallan and realShallan.

[DeployParachute]

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing 

This is unbelievably awesome. Thank you so much for putting this together.

[Ailvara]

6 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I think the "Shalladin Manifesto" title fits this very well, and I admire the work put into it (seriously, it looks like a lot of work - great job!)

But as a person who cares about Shallan quite a bit more than I do Kaladin - and favors her relationship with Adolin, who is clearly better than both of them - I don't find it convincing. When I read many of the quotes, I arrive at the opposite interpretation. One specific objection I have is to the argument that neither we nor Adolin has seen realShallan - I think realShallan is occasionally present. Think of times where what seems to be personaShallan acts decisively with confidence, or is very scholarly (i.e. at the zoo, or on the shattered plains, both times she kind of leaves Adolin behind). This is realShallan, and Adolin has caught glimpses of her.

Some constructive criticism - I think you should have a brief key at the beginning defining terms, i.e. personaShallan and realShallan.

Constructive criticism is always good! I wouldn't be able to convincingly make a case for Shadolin myself, but if you feel this point of view should be represented, feel free to add a section. Out of curiosity, which quotes did you interpret in the opposite way?

Actually, I get it how realShallan can be confusing. It could reference Shallan as she is before fracturing, ie WoK and WoR. But I guess I went more with the person buried inside of her due to her mental wounds, as it is likely the endgame for her, especially after we recently discussed this:

Quote

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.” Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her.

 

So I'm not sure yet whether to just clarify that or introduce a third Shallan into the mix (one that is whole but still has stuff buried deep inside her). So yes, we do see glimpses of this whomSheCouldBeAndPossiblyWillBeShallan (damnation, somebody better come up with a better name), but she never emerges for long enough and I don't think Adolin notices, though that is debatable. I mean, everybody acts OOC sometimes, but without knowing her history it'd be impossible to realize, that these glimpses are actually realShallan and not just random... moods.

[mariapapadia she/her]

Sorry for the offtopic and popping in like this, but is there anyone here good with rhymes? I need some help! Also this is the most active thread, so if I were to have some luck, I hope to find it here  

Ok! Thank you ! Carry on !

[MonsterMetroid]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

Actually, I get it how realShallan can be confusing. It could reference Shallan as she is before fracturing, ie WoK and WoR.

Yeah I briefly looked over the document but realShallan is pretty confusing and also we dont really know who realShallan is and Brandon I'm quite convinced has done that on purpose to throw us on our heads again in the next book or two.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Calyx said:

This is realShallan, and Adolin has caught glimpses of her.

I disagree. I think, this is the best description of realShallan, we've got so far.

Quote

Shallan looked into the depths of the swirling void, the dark spinning soul of Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. Then, growling, Shallan struck. She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

This isn't personaShallan. personaShallan is the "prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society." And personaShallan is what Adolin has been seeing primarily. And what he fell in love with.

If this is realShallan, then I would place her closer to Veil... And we both know who Veil prefers.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SLNC

[MonsterMetroid]

 

25 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Quote

Shallan looked into the depths of the swirling void, the dark spinning soul of Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. Then, growling, Shallan struck. She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

This isn't personaShallan. personaShallan is the "prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society." And personaShallan is what Adolin has been seeing primarily. And what he fell in love with.

If this is realShallan, then I would place her closer to Veil... And we both know who Veil prefers.

I love this and I have been thinking along the same lines as this. Enough so that I have been working on a whole post about it, but Shallan feels kind of over talked right now. But realShallan seems pretty deeply buried and dark and I'm sure there are more surprises about her background for us to read about still.

Edited December 14, 2017 by MonsterMetroid
removed typo

[Rainier]

46 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Sorry for the offtopic and popping in like this, but is there anyone here good with rhymes?

Strange request, but I'll bite. Lord knows I've spent enough time setting musical songs to Stormlight settings, of which I'm inordinately proud. Feel free to either PM or @ me and I'll lend a hand.

Also, here's to @Ailvara, which I've totally been reading as Alivara right up until I had to spell it. You've put together a great resource, and it looks great.

 

[Awesomness]

I don´t feel like thinking right now, but I just wanted to say (again) this thread is Amazing!

@Ailvara What a great idea! Im going to read the essay tonight 

@Calyx Please tell us how you interpret the same phrases! I find it fascinating how different people interprets completely opposite things from the same lines

EDIT: I don´t know who opened this thread or if they are still around, but it may be a good idea to post a summary on the OP to avoid misunderstandings from people who reads the last 2 pages and think we are desperate shippers (hehe) or Adolin-haters.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Awesomness
added an idea

[Gunzaan]

3 hours ago, Calyx said:

But as a person who cares about Shallan quite a bit more than I do Kaladin - and favors her relationship with Adolin, who is clearly better than both of them - I don't find it convincing.

I love this board and the varied opinions. I don’t agree with most of them.  This is a glaring example of plain ignorance.

 

”Who is clearly better than both of them”

 

That’s an absolute statement that you can’t quantify.

 

 

 

And honestly, I appreciate that statement, even though I don’t agree.  Atleast he/she has a strong opinion.  I’ve seen a few instances in this thread where someone calls someone out for saying a similar statement.  Grow a thicker skin and live in the real world. People have completely different opinions and perspectives and they are allowed to express them.  If you can’t deal with it, that’s on you, not their individual perspective/opinion.

[Greywatch she/her]

12 hours ago, Gunzaan said:

I love this board and the varied opinions. I don’t agree with most of them.  This is a glaring example of plain ignorance.

”Who is clearly better than both of them”

That’s an absolute statement that you can’t quantify.

And honestly, I appreciate that statement, even though I don’t agree.  At least he/she has a strong opinion.  I’ve seen a few instances in this thread where someone calls someone out for saying a similar statement.  Grow a thicker skin and live in the real world. People have completely different opinions and perspectives and they are allowed to express them.  If you can’t deal with it, that’s on you, not their individual perspective/opinion.

The ability to look past our gut feelings/instinct to engage with an argument in good faith notwithstanding... there are ways to disagree with other people that are less prone to escalation. Calling someone ignorant and demanding that others engage in debates the way that you like is more conducive to causing fights than actually moving the discussion ahead in a productive way. With this topic especially, tensions are already a little higher than in other threads, and it would be helpful if we all were more conscious of our tones rather than less. The standard of debate only lowers when we get heated and start sniping at each other.

[insert_anagram_here]

12 hours ago, Ailvara said:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing 

Amazing! @Ailvara I'll be adding my comments in there if that's okay. I'll try to cite as much as I can.

[PhineasGage]

Good Morning Good Morning!

Sorry I've been afk for a bit (bet you were all a little relieved!) Life suddenly got a little busy.

I've enjoyed trying to catch up with y'all - but I haven't yet managed to read @Ailvara's notes and make comments. I will do so sometime today though  I'm really looking forward to it!

Ok, on to thread comments:

On 13/12/2017 at 6:22 PM, aemetha said:

I think you're reading a little too much into that there. My interpretation of that scene is that she is saying Veil remembers what Shallan has experienced, but because Shallan has delineated them, she doesn't have an emotional response as if it happened to her as Veil, she has a response as if it happened to someone else - a close friend perhaps is a good analogy. That's basically how dissociative disorders work in terms of insulating the main persona from the trauma

On 13/12/2017 at 4:56 PM, insert_anagram_here said:

So Veil existed back when Shallan had her sword, back before she said the oaths, back when she was very young. She says that "Veil hadn’t lived through those days" but this contradicts the previous statements AND Pattern hums in warning, which means he knows that is a lie too.

So Veil is not necessarily someone that was created recently in WoR, but possibly Shallan's original personality. 

This is a really interesting question that we will presumably get an answer to. Here is my personal take on it (it lies somewhere between your two opinions)

TrueShallan is the combination of all three of Radiant, Veil and personaShallan, plus the interactions that arise from the personality traits that she has artificially separated. KInd of like the resonance from who surges - its a form of emergent complxexity. 

Whilst Veil and Radiant were not named before trueShallan fractured, they did exist as part of trueShallan and thus whilst they don't have the autobiographical memories that personaShallan has, they are aware of those autobiographical memories because in a sense they did experience them. They each (for example) also will consider the physical body (that we could call bodyShallan) as their own - and thus each likely has a bond with Pattern - but the trick is that each bond is weaker than a full nahel bond because she has split herself 3 ways.

So in this sense, personaShallan, Veil, and Radiant each have access to surgebinding and the Patternblade but they only do these things best when they stand united (eg at TC). I suspect this might be why Pattern seems to be going backwards - only a fragment of the bond is active at any one moment. 

I don't think that Veil is more like trueShallan than personaShallan is. Veil is perhaps more like the person trueShallan might have been had she not lived the life she has, but we are a product of our experiences as well as our inbuilt personalities so personaShallan (likely more a product of environment including education) is as "real" as Veil because that is how she has been taught to think and behave. That being said, this means that her personality traits are inherently conflicting with her upbringing and I can see that causing strife.

On 13/12/2017 at 9:26 PM, Starla said:

Quote

“You don’t look surprised about this,” Shallan said as she started changing.

“I was suspicious when Veil … when you told me to go on this mission,” she said. “Then I saw the illusions, and guessed.” She paused. “I had it reversed. I thought Brightness Shallan was the persona. But the spy— that’s the false identity.” 

“Wrong,” Shallan said. “They’re both equally false.” Once dressed, she flipped through her sketchbook and found a drawing of Lyn in her scouting uniform. Perfect. “Go tell Brightlord Kaladin I’m already out and exploring, and that he should meet me in about an hour.”

So how does this reconcile with the common notion that the “Shallan" that Adolin identifies at the end of the book is the “real” Shallan? I don’t see that end-of-book Shallan is any different from the Shallan in this scene in Kholinar. I personally don’t think we’ve seen the real full Shallan in the books yet, though I think we came close during the Re-Shephir encounter. It is my interpretation (like many others in this thread) that all of her fragmented personas, including Shallan, Veil, and Radiant, make up the larger True Shallan, which is a single individual in the Spiritual Realm, but fragmented in the Physical Realm.

I agree - and also want some insight on this. I would add that I think she is whole in the spiritual and physical realms but fractured in the cognitive realm and this feeds into why Pattern's mental abilities seem to be deteriorating.

I think Shallan in WoR is whole, but she hides her "less desirable" traits (ie those schooled out of her by her upbringing) behind a mask of proper behaviour. This is normal human behaviour - we all wear masks. She has just been wearing a mask for so long (as a result of her father and her education) that she has forgotten that she can actually take it off whenever she likes. She is starting to take it off during WoR but goes backwards and fractures her identity as a result of the 4th ideal.

On 13/12/2017 at 10:00 PM, Starla said:

@SLNC I see it the same way you do. She allowed someone else to tell her who she is because she was tired of not knowing. Sometimes it's easier to go along with whatever you're told rather than undergoing to exhausting process of figuring it out for yourself.  At least she had this moment of self-awareness in Kholinar, so maybe she'll get back there at some point in the future.

It's interesting, Jasnah had my favorite quote of the whole series so far in Part 2 of this book, where she said to Dalinar “I don’t need company to be confident." I feel like Shallan is at the opposite place at the end of this book

Indeed. Shallan in some ways has had to grow up long before her time - she was  the main emotional support for her older brothers and thus had an enormous amount of responsibility put on her. She had very little childhood without trouble (from what we've seen) and like many abused children, has a precociousness that is offputting but also somewhat erratic. I can see why being allowed some time to drop the responsibility is appealing. Unfortunately, she's a KR and responsibility is part and parcel of that role.

On 13/12/2017 at 11:51 PM, GoddessIMHO said:

But Hoid also sees the main Shallan as the "real" one not just Adolin. I have no argument that she is really made up of all these traits and certainly isn't integrated at this time but the base is Shallan as Hoid and Adolin see her. The other traits are her also but she is afraid to accept fully. At least she is now steady and working with the 3 together.

My guess; she "combines" herself after "something" that will occur in the next book. She has that Ghostblood task looming as well as any potential battles with fused that may occur.

In other discussions here numerous posts and the text refer to Adolin "snapping" in the murder of Sadeus. That seems a very interesting bow to what has to happen in Scadrial for magic to enter a soul.

I think Hoid is probably the only person who can see trueShallan at this point. His ability to read people is extraordinary. I also think he relates to Shallan in a way we dont really see with other characters. I agree that she seems to accept that she needs all 3 alts to function, but I don't think she realises that she is all 3. Its a step, but there is a long way to go.

I agree that she will reintegrate after some kind of crisis - likely occurring in SA4. I wouldn't be surprised if the "something" occurs towards the end (perhaps assisting with someone else's progression) but that she won't progress to level 5 until book 5. 

I must admit i was also interested in "snapping". Adolin also "surges" when he kills Sadeas and he feels exhausted after encountering Sadeas in the winehouse during the highstorm - all suggestive of surgebinding. That said, we have no indication of him bonding a spren as yet, unless it is Maya. 

On 14/12/2017 at 0:23 AM, Rainier said:

Generally I'm going to assume that Hoid knows what's happening, or at least knows better than any other character we've met.

Yeah I agree - also as the oldest human (ish) person we've encountered he may have experience of similar issues. I would anticipate him helping Shallan with another story that helps her understand her situation when the right moment arises.

On 14/12/2017 at 1:56 AM, Dreamstorm said:

I'm getting a little worried Shallan's reintegration is going to be a little too tied to Kaladin...

I'm not, oddly. The more I think about it, the more I think it will be Kaladin progressing as a result of her. Indeed much of their interaction has actually resulted in him depending on her rather than the other way round (eg, he needed her sword, and her assistance to beat the chasmfiend and survive the highstorm). If anyone impacts Shallan I think it will be Hoid, for reasons stated above. Adolin might be of value, but I hope in a more passive supoorting way if we end up going down that route.

On 14/12/2017 at 1:56 AM, Dreamstorm said:

I think he just means Truespren who can Nahel bond and make a Radiant (this was originally supposed to be a non-spoiler annotation for beginning of WoK.)

That said, Cryptics and Honorspren are opposite on the double eye, and are opposite in many ways, I think on Roshar, a world where symmettry is so important, that this means these types of spren are actually more closely related than they first appear.

23 hours ago, DimChatz said:

Wait a minute... What if it goes the other way around and this is a progression moment for Kaladin. "What should have you done except protecting yourself? Well, that sound like a great idea. I have to start doing that instead of constantly berating myself. Protect my self if I can't poretect others, so that in the future I can keep protecting.Yeah, sound like the reasonable and realistic thing to do". I doubt that it's going to be as easy as that, it's Kaladin we're talking about here

So, I agree that I think Kaladin will probably be guided by Shallan in some respect, but for different rreasons. 1) I don't think this will be his 4th ideal - it is too close to the 3rd (think of Teft's in which he includes himself as the person he most hates) and 2) I think Kaladin needs some leadership ideals. I posted an idea in the 4th WR ideal thread that went along the lines of protecting those who need it, allowing people to act in their own interests, and knowing when the difference between these. Perhaps something about empowering others to act  (which is probably the most important thing a leader can do imo)

14 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I will likely not ever be somewhere that I can ask Brandon a question. If any of you are it seems like asking what state Pattern is in at the end of OB would be useful information. Is being drowsy the sign that he is fading/dying? The WOB that says she is better but still has a way to go doesn't give us a "level of danger" that knowing Pattern's state would.

Yes I very much agree. Isn't there a grandmaster list out there? Can we get this put on it? I have no idea how.

12 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

10 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I was thinking about shutting it tomorrow, but I guess I can leave it open longer and make more backups in the meantime. Even once I close it, it'll still be open to comments and then I can copy-paste them

Woo, can't wait to read it. I reckon you'll have closed it by the time I get to it, but I'll leave comments or something for you.

9 hours ago, Calyx said:

I think realShallan is occasionally present. Think of times where what seems to be personaShallan acts decisively with confidence, or is very scholarly (i.e. at the zoo, or on the shattered plains, both times she kind of leaves Adolin behind). This is realShallan, and Adolin has caught glimpses of her.

I agree that trueShallan is present here but I think she is wearing the mask of personaShallan so Adolin has limited chances to meet the real one. That isn't his fault - she is wearing a face for him deliberately.

Note that she wonders about wearing a face (illusion) for him after their first meeting in WoR and whether she could even keep it up during the marriage - is this foreshadowing (along with Wit's "Almost but not quite bride" comment)? I dont have the book on me right now but she wonders about it after she arrives at Sebariel's war camp iirc.

9 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

Sorry for the offtopic and popping in like this, but is there anyone here good with rhymes? I need some help! Also this is the most active thread, so if I were to have some luck, I hope to find it here 

I'll have a go if you still need someone but I'm not amazing.... PM me if you like.

9 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Yeah I briefly looked over the document but realShallan is pretty confusing and also we dont really know who realShallan is and Brandon I'm quite convinced has done that on purpose to throw us on our heads again in the next book or two.

I agree. We have the traits we would associate with Shallan but not the amounts of each trait that go into completeing her personality. That said, I anticiptae someone more like WoR Shallan (when she is alone and free to think and act as she likes) because otherwise she will lose a lot of the goodwill she got from her arc in WoR and it will be harder to keep her sympathetic if she changes too much.