[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

43 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

So I wonder if it's somewhat a coincidence, that the wedding ketek turned out to be also the right one for chapter titles, or if he actually meant for the romantic storyline to be that important. Maybe a mix of both.

My hope is it's both (since I think it would be genius) - so you can read the Part headings both with respect to the events in that Part as a whole and as they specifically relate to the subject matter of the ketek.  It definitely may just be the former, but now I can't wait for the ketek in the next book (when I previously kind of ignored them... )

45 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

On 12/17/2017 at 0:07 PM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

I should be able to see it; I couldn't agree more.  Except that I am just still not seeing it.  Kind of like I didn't see the actual wedding.  I can't help but wonder if Sanderson wants us to not see it, wants us to doubt, wants us to question, and wants us to call foul.  

That's actually from full book reactions, but I absolutely love this as a piece of foreshadowing/fourth wall breaking.

EDIT By now I can't help but get extremely suspicious when someone uses question marks (Shallan hearing Wit's? voice, Kaladin feeling acceptance? and so on)

This is an awesome catch - and perfectly describes so many people's feelings about the conclusion! 

[GoddessIMHO]

Unity, truth, defiance and new beginnings are also themes for Venli so I think it's really the theme of the entire book. HAHA, I suppose you could even say that Amaram had a new beginning, it just ended fairly quickly.

I liked the triangle shardpost but I would recommend that Shalladin supporters avoid it as it will only upset them.

[Humming]

I finished the book this evening and don't know how to feel.

I'm not very into shipping, but to be honest with the kind of foreshadowing that Sanderson was pulling between Kaladin and Shallan, I thought they would get closer as we can't deny that they have mutual atraction, even though (superficial?visible?)Shallan tries to push it to their fractured personas. I've spent quite a while diving into this thread and I found some Shalladin shippers not trusting her decisions at the end.

My money was on Kal, too, but don't get me wrong, one just can't simply hate my boy Adolin. But, how to explain it, they had nothing deep? I mean, maybe I've interpreted it wrong, but each time Shallan is around Adolin, she is the least of herself. Their interactions most of time in the early parts of the books felt cheesy as heck, like a low effort romance. As much as I like Adolin and Shallan, the two of them together feels very incomplete, at least in this moment of the story. Their interacions are dull and boring, thanks Pattern for relieving these boring 15 years old flirting into funny moments with your 'No mating!'.

Everything about the wedding and the 'why I chose you' felt no romantic at all, just rushed. Like a rabbit looking for shelter from an unknown danger in his hole. Is this truly the end of this theme or just a 'prepare for whats next'-ending? Because Shallan is still hurt, pushing feelings aside and shoving them at the back of your mind doesn't work forever. This book is about her fracturing more and more, but I still think that we haven't seen realShallan apart from a few glimpses.

Is Adolin marrying a whole woman, or another of her personas but without a Light Weave working on her?

 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

“Oh, them,” Syl said. “Well, I know that you don’t back down from fights. You’ve lost the round, but—”

“No,” he said. “Her choice is made. You can see it.”

“I can?”

“You should be able to.” 

If this is the author breaking the 4th wall to interact with the readers to tell that this sub plot is done, I'd feel very, very disappointed. I've already read some of his other works and noticed too that romance is not his best writing, but come on... This is not the major point of SA, but I'd have a hard time getting over this kind of  apparently rushed development.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Humming

[Ailvara]

6 minutes ago, Humming said:

If this is the author breaking the 4th wall to interact with the readers to tell that this sub plot is done, I'd feel very, very disappointed. I've already read some of his other works and noticed too that romance is not his best writing, but come on... This is not the major point of SA, but I'd have a hard time getting over this kind of  apparently rushed development.

I understood it more like we were put in the position of Syl. That we should see evidence that Shallan has made her decision, but there's something wrong with it. And if she's unconvinced, we can be as well.

I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

[Humming]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

I understood it more like we were put in the position of Syl. That we should see evidence that Shallan has made her decision, but there's something wrong with it. And if she's unconvinced, we can be as well.

I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

I feel the same, both Shallan and Adolin work better when not interacting as a couple. Adolin is just flawless (but when he is alone, we can see him being impulsive, kinda stubborn, not bad traits, but HIS own traits, that are pushed aside when he's with Shallan), the perfect boyfriend you would expect from a Fairy Tale. And Shallan, jeez, she just cling onto him even trying to forget about her traits that could spoil their relationship. The difference is that Adolin just acts more pricely but Shallan truly changes her own personality.

Maybe I was carried by the sadness of the scene where Kaladin lets her go, I didn't think about your point. Now that you mention it, maybe it's true that Syl indeed notices that something is not quite right about that, and we the readers should not believe what the characters said after a whole book feeling the opposite way.

[Awesomness]

4 hours ago, Ailvara said:

The Polish version would be cool for that because the endless word forms allow for little ambiguity - all ofc assuming, that the translator consulted it all well with Brandon. Unfortunately, OB translation is divided into two parts and for now, I can only check the first two pieces of the ketek. The only thing that I can see clarified is that "united" refers to those who sing and "new beginnings" are sung. Not surprising, but I guess we could try to interpret it somewhat differently. I'll let you know more in April.

I managed to find the 1st Ketek in Spanish. There is not knowing if it is a accurate or just a lazy translation.  I read the "Above Silence" as the absence of Honor/the Almighty. The high storms are showing/reveling this lack of Honor. Also, the storms are dying...? 

"Above silence" could relate to the helplessness the characters seem to feel in the first part. "Illuminatig storms" may be, as @Dreamstorm said, the massage conveyed in Dalinar´s visions. It could also refer to the first steps they take towards their respective objetives. Here is when Kaladin starts to fight back again...I´m at lost with "dying storms". "Illuminate the silence above" seems to me like a call to action, people chasing to stand up by themselves, in response to the lack of Honor.

Quote

Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above

Arriba silencio, las tormentas iliminadoras —tormentas moribundas— iliminan el silencio de arriba. 

On a second thought, the "dying storms" reminded me of this: 

Quote

“Syl still stood beside him, facing eastward. It made his very soul twist in knots to see that look of despair on her face. “Are windspren attracted to wind,” she asked softly, “or do they make it?”
“I don’t know,” Kaladin said. “Does it matter?”
“Perhaps not. You see, I’ve remembered what kind of spren I am.”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “The Way of Kings.” iBooks. 

Maybe the "dying storms" are the consequence of Honor´s absence. Honor used to be a sort of moral compass. The storms and winds are linked with Honor many times. So the fact that there is "silence above" / Honor is not there causes the "dying storm"/lack of honorable acts, and that reveals the absence of Honor.

Kind of what Syl means in that passage. 

Am I making sense? 

---

@Humming welcome onboard. 

@GoddessIMHO I haven´t listend to the shardpost, but there is no denying there are many that feel at lost with the triangle resolution, and we have already overanalyzed everything and still get the same feeling, so I guess it doesn't really matter what they say. I´m glad for them anyway.

As for the Ketek, I agree it applies to the whole book, though being made for Shallan´s marriage it may have some specific meaning. It is a strange piece to write on a wedding day...

[Guest]

7 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I liked the triangle shardpost but I would recommend that Shalladin supporters avoid it as it will only upset them.

I was sure of that even after just reading the talker composition... Is it really that one-sided?

4 hours ago, Awesomness said:

As for the Ketek, I agree it applies to the whole book, though being made for Shallan´s marriage it may have some specific meaning. It is a strange piece to write on a wedding day...

Maybe Jasnah is just bad at Vorin poetry

7 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

No, it is very much this. And well, the relationship started out as forced by Shallan and ended in a very much forced marriage by Shallan. Shallan has just shifted the goalposts. At first, it was for the safety of her family and now it is to anchor personaShallan as dominant. After having seen that WoK annotation, that says, that the moments of flaring passion are what Brandon defines as more "her" and how dominant Veil got at times, I'm more and more convinced, that Veil is much, much closer to the realShallan and which is why Shallan is so inclined to keep personaShallan as dominant. No matter the costs.

@Humming Welcome. Check out this summary, if you need a condensed resource. 60 pages are a lot to go through: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

 

[enryu]

Hi, I made an account just so I could complain about this.

I found this love triangle to be physically repulsive. I liked Shallan and Syl coming out of Words of Radiance, but now my opinion of them both - particularly Syl - is in the dumpster. Adolin and Shallan are betrothed, right? They're engaged. One step from marriage. How, by any moral standard, is it okay to be lusting after another dude when you are literally one step away from marriage? I get that it's Veil, and Shallan has split personalities, but that doesn't mean it's not disgusting. 

Syl, on the other hand. Wow. Just wow. What she did in this book? I see this as basically the equivalent of repeatedly telling one of your friends to storm your other friend's fiancee. I thought Syl is supposed to be honorable? How is this sort of thing okay? At the end of the book, when she tells Kaladin that he only lost the first round, and he should give it another go? That's some real she-devil rust. 

The whole thing made me really uncomfortable throughout the book. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, enryu said:

Adolin and Shallan are betrothed, right? They're engaged.

Causally betrothed. They could have broken off the engagement at any point.

3 minutes ago, enryu said:

Syl, on the other hand. Wow. Just wow. What she did in this book? I see this as basically the equivalent of repeatedly telling one of your friends to storm your other friend's fiancee. I thought Syl is supposed to be honorable? How is this sort of thing okay? At the end of the book, when she tells Kaladin that he only lost the first round, and he should give it another go? That's some real she-devil rust. 

Well, you see, Syl has a very... simplistic view of that. A causal betrothal is no oath, so there is nothing, that can be broken. She doesn't see the immorality, because morality is pretty much a human social construct. She is a spren after all.

[PhineasGage]

Hey all

I'm full of cold and all woolly today so sorry for not being able to post in my normal way. I'm just too tired!

I wanted to get on this ketek thing discussion because it will be useful I think. I am essentially going to brainstorm some ideas and possibilities, so feel free to brush them aside or run with them as you like.

Quote

tWoK Ketek: Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above

Ok so I think this ketek was heard as a death rattle before Kaladin arrived at the Shattered plains, thus it is possible that it refers to anything during the three books we have or still into the future. It also, clearly, has multiple layers of meaning.

1) The ketek as a whole shows tWoK story - the silent chasms (the book is set on the plains above the chasms), the fact that Honor is dead (silent above), the "illumination" of stormlight for Kaladin becoming Radiant (glowing), the "illumination" of Dalinar by being given the visions, 

2) The ketek may be applied to a single character. My personal guess is that the ketek is actually meant to align most closely to the MC of it's book. Therefore in this case, Kaladin. It shows his descent into the chasms, his acquisition of stormlight --> Radiance, his ability to fly (not yet in tWoK but it works), and possibly some foreshadowing for his future? Eg "dying" (figuratvely when he killed Syl or literally in a future book - perhaps as a "Herald") also that he may "ascend" in a similar way to Dalinar - probably not as "Honor" but again possibly to becoming the replacement for Jezrien

3) The ketek is subdivided - as per @Dreamstorm's analysis. Each part relates to a part of the ketek but the punctuation can be off to give a complete idea that represents the section of the book it titles.

I had another thought here but I can't remember it - stupid woolly brain.

 

Quote

Alight, winds approach deadly approaching winds alight

Ok so by the same analysis methods as above we get:

1) Represents the whole book (again) as it portrays Shallan's situation of becoming Radiant ("alight" - indeed i believe she even uses the term for herself in PoV iirc), the approach of the everstorm, Kaladin's progression, the chasmfiend fight (Kaladin "approaches" with Shallan "alight" the "deadly" chasmfiend/highstorm). The highstorm and everstorm clash (each approaches from different sides) and then combine into a "deadly" climax.

2) Ketek applies most to Shallan. She is "Alight" as a Lightweaver, she approaches winds (Kaladin), she is deadly (we see her as a killer thrice over in this book), she helps Kaladin progress by "lightening" him, she approaches the everstorm/the idea of the everstorm and the coming of the voidbringers and doesn't hide from the idea. I would suggest (purely from a Shalladin perspective of course) that this also indicates that Shalladin isn't finished - the "winds alight" to me references that Kal (wind) and Shallan (light) are intrinsically linked. But she is actually in the "Deadly" part of the Ketek - which a) fits Adolin who is a murderer, and (b) suggests not a brilliant end to the marriage. She should end with "lighting" the "wind". 

3) Again can be subdivided per part of the book. I would argue that it links more than just the Listeners situation (tho I agree with your comments otherwise @Dreamstorm) 

• Alight = Shallan showing her lightweaving, Dalinar actively acting as Highprince of war, Kaladin glowing and learning his skills (also in much better mood than generally he was bfore)
• Wind's approach = iirc Kaladin flies in this section? He and Shallan have multiple interactions. We see the "highstorm date" between Adolin and Shallan, 
• Deadly - chasm sequence iirc? People died in that assassination attempt and everyone thought Kaladin and Shallan were dead. Indeed they nearly were given the chasmfiend and highstorm, both of which are pretty deadly. Syl is "killed". 
• The Approach - obviously as the armies approach the Parshendi in the hopes of winning and fulfulling the vengeance pact. Kaladin "approaches" the understanding of the 3rd ideal, Shallan "approaches" the truth of her lightweaving by revealing herself to Dalinar. Dalinar "approaches" his situation of bonding the stormfather by heading towards access to Urithiru - also he has started "unifying" properly now because he has got 2 other highprinces following him.
• Winds Alight - Kaladin re-awakes Syl, Everstorm is summoned, Shallan "illuminates" the way to Urithiru, Kaladin saves the day, Dalinar becomes radiant (ie glows) as a result of the stormfather (also wind lol).

Quote

United, new beginnings sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!" Sing beginnings, new unity.

1) Ok, so this represents OB as a whole because we see the United people of Dalinar's armies at Urithiru at the beginning of the new Radiant era, Dalinar is trying to defy the truth of his past as a warmonger and bring people together besides it, We have a whole love triangle thing and Shallan is still lying to herself throuighout, Shallan is "united" initially then fractures but is operating as a different ("new") unit (3 in one) at the end of OB (nb her alts all hold hands), Bridge 4 and the other bridgecrews are all follwing Kaladin, by the end, there is a different unity because Lopen and Teft (who both follow Kal) also have their own squires. The Kholin house is now united in one place (Gavinor brought to Urithiru) and the crown of the united Alethkar has passed from Elhokar to Jasnah. Dalinar defies his truth (because his memories are suppressed) but then remembers it and learns to love that truth (in a way) because it gave him the strength to (a) resist Odium, (b) become a better person (c) gain forgiveness.

2) I think this Ketek represents Dalinar. It appears to be the wedding but actually I think it works best for Dalinar and the KR by extension. Dalinar is united with Navani in their new beginning. He defies the truth of his past, gradually remembering it then drinking himself into oblivion to defy it further, he gradually accepts (loves?) it and learns from it, uses the truth to defy Odium . He begins again with the unification/alliance of the peoples of Roshar and the KR. Note that the KR also have a bit of this - they appear united at first, they have no idea that the original VB were humans and surgebinding is potentially dangerous. They then defy that truth and act anyway because they need to, we see the Heralds possibly join the KR at Urithiru and join together again. 

Anyway, just some thoughts. Sorry if it is a bit incoherent 

 

[Humming]

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

@Humming Welcome. Check out this summary, if you need a condensed resource. 60 pages are a lot to go through: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

 

10 hours ago, Awesomness said:

@Humming welcome onboard. 

Thanks for the welcome! I'll check the link as soon as I can.

----

5 hours ago, enryu said:

Hi, I made an account just so I could complain about this.

I found this love triangle to be physically repulsive. I liked Shallan and Syl coming out of Words of Radiance, but now my opinion of them both - particularly Syl - is in the dumpster. Adolin and Shallan are betrothed, right? They're engaged. One step from marriage. How, by any moral standard, is it okay to be lusting after another dude when you are literally one step away from marriage? I get that it's Veil, and Shallan has split personalities, but that doesn't mean it's not disgusting. 

Syl, on the other hand. Wow. Just wow. What she did in this book? I see this as basically the equivalent of repeatedly telling one of your friends to storm your other friend's fiancee. I thought Syl is supposed to be honorable? How is this sort of thing okay? At the end of the book, when she tells Kaladin that he only lost the first round, and he should give it another go? That's some real she-devil rust. 

The whole thing made me really uncomfortable throughout the book. 

Sorry, but I can't understand the hatred in your post, like Shallan was acting like some kind of immoral human being. 

Shallan and Adolin are bethroted, yes, but since when a legal agreement must be a barrier for new feelings? You used the word 'lusted', but I we assume that Shallan was lusting for Kaladin, what was she doing for Adolin? There are a lot of times where she notes 'how hot he is' like it was some cheap Twilight scene. Shallan totally lusts after Adolin, but that doesnt stop her from developing feelings for Adolin.

The problem is that (in my opinion) Veil and Radiant sided with these new emotions flowing towards Kaladin, proving that Shallan is fractured almost as 3 independent individuals, and the Shallan that is in love with Adolin and rushes to a marriage because she suddenly felt the urge to, is denying that Veil and Radiant are part of her true self, as well as the feelings for Kaladin.

It's just her tactic again, deny the problem, shove it the more deep you can, and carry on until you explode.

And about Syl, well. First of all, she's bonded with Kaladin, not with Shallan nor Adolin. What's she supposed to do? An informal bethrotal is not an Oath, spren are not ruled by a legal system mirroring the one in Roshar. Why would she care about a single word of 'yeah, we are kinda going to marry, maybe'.

For her, Kaladin chasing the woman he seems to love is not an immoral act, because he is a protector, he is not forbidden to love. Did the Stormfather for example complain because Dalinar married the widow of his brother? If I recall correctly, ardents were Ned Flanders-judgemental because they were flirting. But hey, the Stormfather was totally fine with it because he didn't see it as wrong or immoral.

[Rainier]

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

17 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I liked the triangle shardpost but I would recommend that Shalladin supporters avoid it as it will only upset them.

I was sure of that even after just reading the talker composition... Is it really that one-sided?

Yeah, it's about as bad as you can imagine. It's this entire thread, only backwards. I couldn't get through it.

[Dreamstorm]

17 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

I actually think this might be part of the appeal of Shadolin - people can easily imagine themselves slipping into a relationship with Adolin (or the Adolin personality traits in whatever gender they prefer), so when one thinks - would I rather be with Adolin or Kaladin?, Adolin is always the winner since he would make anyone happy!  Insofar as his relationship with Shallan, he's infinitely patient and understanding not to mention super hot and rich and the best fighter ever.  What's not to love?  Maybe that's the only reason Adolin had his "relationship problems" prior to Shallan from a narrative perspective; it was an attempt to show there is something "special" about Shallan which stopped his wandering eye (his only fault besides his temper (which thankfully is not directed towards women)?), but I agree it wasn't well-developed.  We get one list of Shallan's attributes from Adolin's perspective in WoR (the one where she's clever but doesn't make him feel stupid and she's not smothered in Alethi propriety), but other than that, we don't hear (from his mind or from what he tells her) why she's suddenly reformed him.  Like you said, we in general don't hear a lot about why he specifically fits with her and she specifically fits with him.  Emphasizing that special "fit" seems to be something Brandon has done in other relationships (Wax/Steris comes to mind), but seems to be lacking here.

17 hours ago, Humming said:

Maybe I was carried by the sadness of the scene where Kaladin lets her go, I didn't think about your point. Now that you mention it, maybe it's true that Syl indeed notices that something is not quite right about that, and we the readers should not believe what the characters said after a whole book feeling the opposite way.

Something I didn't notice until my recent WoR reread (and as pointed out in @PhineasGage's essay which drew my attention to these things) is how much Kaladin is actually really attracted to Shallan from the get-go.  Even taking their boots and king's antechamber spats out of the picture (the obvious set-up), he definitely hates seeing her with Adolin (the menagerie scene; Syl remarks there that he's extremely unhappy and even asks why they would make him unhappy) and her poor opinion of him (scene just before the bridge collapses where she says he's hateful), and I think he's lying to himself about how much he feels in OB too (right up to and including this scene at the end.)

9 hours ago, enryu said:

Syl, on the other hand. Wow. Just wow. What she did in this book? I see this as basically the equivalent of repeatedly telling one of your friends to storm your other friend's fiancee. I thought Syl is supposed to be honorable? How is this sort of thing okay? At the end of the book, when she tells Kaladin that he only lost the first round, and he should give it another go? That's some real she-devil rust. 

Others have addressed why Syl doesn't understand the significance of the fact Adolin and Shallan are in a relationship even if they aren't married (oaths), but I don't think it's a coincidence that every time Syl pushes Shallan on Kaladin he rebuffs Syl's suggestions, but the one time he does something in response to Syl's goading (the conversation on the Reacher ship), that ends up in the "death knell" moment for Shalladin.  I don't think we're supposed to think Kaladin should insert himself and get in the way of Adolin and Shallan's relationship, and I think if (when....) Shallan and Kaladin finally get together, Adolin will be out of the picture, so it won't feel dishonorable.  On a more meta level, I think Syl is representing Kaladin's deeper feelings for Shallan, which of course he's trying to suppress because it's not right for him to be chasing a romantic relationship with his friend's girlfriend.

3 hours ago, Humming said:

The problem is that (in my opinion) Veil and Radiant sided with these new emotions flowing towards Kaladin, proving that Shallan is fractured almost as 3 independent individuals, and the Shallan that is in love with Adolin and rushes to a marriage because she suddenly felt the urge to, is denying that Veil and Radiant are part of her true self, as well as the feelings for Kaladin.

I agree with you that the most "immoral" action is that Shallan jumps into marriage when she's really not sure of it (as shown by integral parts of herself wanting something different.)  I don't consider this immoral myself, as this is how humans are sometimes - we deny feelings in order to make ourselves more certain of actions - but it is probably the most damaging of the "not being faithful" inclinations we see in the book as it will have the most lasting consequences on Shallan and Adolin's relationship.

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

I was sure of that even after just reading the talker composition... Is it really that one-sided?

Yeah, it's about as bad as you can imagine. It's this entire thread, only backwards. I couldn't get through it.

It was very much a Shalladin-hating personal opinion piece, but I think that's to be expected given the participants.  That's fine and all, and they only say they "discuss all aspects" of the triangle not that they are trying to present a balanced view of it. 

Ok, onto ketek posts!

14 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Maybe the "dying storms" are the consequence of Honor´s absence. Honor used to be a sort of moral compass. The storms and winds are linked with Honor many times. So the fact that there is "silence above" / Honor is not there causes the "dying storm"/lack of honorable acts, and that reveals the absence of Honor.

So I found this WoB which sorta kinda maybe confirms that the subject matter of the WoK ketek is about Honor's death.

Quote

Argent

The ketek in the first book ["Above the Silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above"], it seems like this refers to Honor's death.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

Argent

What does "Above the Silence" refer to?

Brandon Sanderson

Above a silent land. 

Argent

Hmm. Roshar, somehow? Okay, you're not gonna tell that.

And the second ketek, in Words of Radiance, similarly refers to the highstorm and the Everstorm... Is there more to it?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's by Navani about the two [storms].

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6745

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

The ketek may be applied to a single character. My personal guess is that the ketek is actually meant to align most closely to the MC of it's book.

Ohhh, I really like this way of looking at them too!  I wish that (without telling us what they mean so we can keep pondering that) Brandon would give us some guidance on how deep he was taking the keteks when he drafted them.  They should pertain to the stated subject matter of the ketek (honor's death likely..., Everstorm arrival/highstorm clash, Adolin and Shallan marriage), and then a more superficial connection to the general flow of each part, and then I like your idea of pertaining to the MC, and I also think they can work related to the subject matter of the ketek in each part.  Possibly they are so thematically intertwined yet obtuse that it all works out.  Honestly one of the things I find frustrating about poetry interpretation in general is that as a student you're "told" a poem or line in a poem means "x", when maybe you can see that, but you can also see why "y" fits.  Unlike a book where I can usually piece together the hidden meaning (*cough* Shalladin *cough*), poetry will sometimes just baffle me in terms of what I'm supposed to get from it.

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I would suggest (purely from a Shalladin perspective of course) that this also indicates that Shalladin isn't finished - the "winds alight" to me references that Kal (wind) and Shallan (light) are intrinsically linked.

I love this, but since Adolin is "born unto light" may I humbly suggest that this is really pointing to Kadolin being our main romance  #kadolinforever

Edited December 19, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[evanna]

*waving* Hello, everyone, another newcomer here. To have any sort of a starting point, I've just looked through that brief summary (cool that there are stuff like that here!) of what you have been discussing so far. My first reaction was simply 'wow'. I know it's a little off-topic, but I have to say it - what you're doing in this place is absolutely amazing! I am more of a math person who prefers simple facts, so all of this theories and search for second meanings has always been a kind of a sorcery for me  But hey, it's never too late to try new things, right? 

Anyway!

I must admit I had supported this pairing in WoR a lot, I didn't feel like that anymore at the end of OB. I was actually glad with the ending. Shallan went... so weird here. She started to be so mean to Kaladin, that I actually found her annoying. It definitely had to do with Helaran issue, but somehow I completely didn't like how she coped with it. First of all, Shallan skipped the topic so easily that I was completely baffled. She will have to finally deal with it anyway. What would it be like? Grudge or reconciliation? I can't really tell with her current state of mind. Until this issue is unresolved I just don't see them together.

So, from my point of view Shalladin was done at the end of OB - with Kaladin's statement and Shallan's wedding. At least at this point of timeline there's nothing serious going on between them - I believe they're both too busy trying to handle their own twisted minds to actually be able to create a relationship anyway. As for the future, I haven't thought of it much yet. It only came to my mind that Adolin would have to die or turn evil, but that would be a completely new and complex story to read before we could even consider Kaladin and Shallan together. I think I would even like to see it that way, but I just feel sorry for Adolin whenever I consider that. 
 

And that last part of the summary! if you say that Brandon actually confirmed that Kal and Shallan are going to interact a lot in the future... hmm... this might prove... very interesting.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, evanna said:

It definitely had to do with Helaran issue, but somehow I completely didn't like how she coped with it. First of all, Shallan skipped the topic so easily that I was completely baffled. She will have to finally deal with it anyway.

Actually, I found, that that was so typically Shallan, that I wasn't even surprised.

[Dreamstorm]

37 minutes ago, evanna said:

I am more of a math person who prefers simple facts, so all of this theories and search for second meanings has always been a kind of a sorcery for me  But hey, it's never too late to try new things, right? 

Not love triangle related, but Brandon is a really good author for getting into the foreshadowing stuff.  He's an "outline" writer, so he's able to lay little hints better than writers who write as they go (so-called "discovery" writers), and he has stated he really loves giving his readers little clues about the upcoming plots twists.  You can look back at his language once a twist happens and see how it all unfolded and you were lead there as a reader, which is so fun.  (If you have kindle search "momentum" in WoK and WoR and see how it's always been tied to negative actions, which of course becomes explicit in OB.)  It makes his books so re-readable because you can see how these things are plotted out so far in advance.

37 minutes ago, evanna said:

And that last part of the summary! if you say that Brandon actually confirmed that Kal and Shallan are going to interact a lot in the future... hmm... this might prove... very interesting.

Whew, this took me a while, but here is the WoB on them "interacting together for the next few books" (from early-2015, so post-WoR but pre-OB.)  Btw, if there are any other unattributed sections of the document which jump out, please point them out!  It'd be great to have everything tied back to primary sources.

Quote

Questioner

Where did the idea to split The Way of Kings and to make it take place in multiple places come from?

Brandon Sanderson

The Way of Kings taking place with the different timelines? So Way of Kings I wrote, the very first version of it--in its contemporary form, I wrote the first book about Dalinar when I was a teenager--but the very first book called The Way of Kings I wrote in 2002 and I tried to cram way too much into that book. The big failing of that book was I tried to do everyone's story at once. And so when I re-wrote it in 2009, or whenever it was, I decided I would take the characters and spread them out across the 10 book series and I would focus on a certain set of them early on and then transition into other ones. But in order to maintain some of the complexity I like in my books, particularly big epic fantasies, I added in the flashback sequence, one per character per book as a means to adding some depth and complexity but using it to build up a character you already knew, rather than doing someone completely different. And so this kind of allowed me to tell the story the way I wanted to, by doing-- That did mean I still had to have two separate timelines because I needed to do Shallan and I needed to do Kaladin, 'cause I knew they were going to be important, interacting together for the next few books. Which did put me in two different places but that was much better than the six different places the original had. And it's just because I like complexity, I like a book that everything comes together at once.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41-firefight-release-party/#e7080

 

[MonsterMetroid]

I keep thinking that this thread is done and somehow it keeps dragging me back in haha.

@SLNC and I agree on a lot of things

On 12/16/2017 at 4:34 AM, SLNC said:

Veil is extremely different from personaShallan. Almost the polar opposite. Especially regarding flaring passion and vivaciousness.

We have a WoK annotation, that Sanderson think this is far more "herself."

Quote

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin.

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8

From this I can only assume(!), that should reintegration occur, that Veil will be a much, much more character-defining part of realShallan. personaShallan won't be gone, but just not as character-defining as she is now.

There is a reason many relationships don't end well, when one partner changes so much, that the love just fizzles out. I'm not saying, that it is impossible, but even if Adolin still loves realShallan... How does realShallan think about it? Veil doesn't like Adolin as a romantic partner. There are always two sides to it.

Veil really feels like the part of Shallan that has the most truth to her to me. I actually made a whole post about it here:

 and I believe that Shallan will have to admit that some point soon and it will create a lot of questions and doubts in her mind. Which kind of leads me to return to a statement I made in another thread. 

I really would not surprise me if Shallan and Adolin get divorced. The fact we didn't even see the wedding and how rushed it feels really leads me to believe that this isn't over by a long shot and drama will follow.

[Humming]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Something I didn't notice until my recent WoR reread (and as pointed out in @PhineasGage's essay which drew my attention to these things) is how much Kaladin is actually really attracted to Shallan from the get-go.  Even taking their boots and king's antechamber spats out of the picture (the obvious set-up), he definitely hates seeing her with Adolin (the menagerie scene; Syl remarks there that he's extremely unhappy and even asks why they would make him unhappy) and her poor opinion of him (scene just before the bridge collapses where she says he's hateful), and I think he's lying to himself about how much he feels in OB too (right up to and including this scene at the end.)

Yeah, I didn't notice when I read the book that Kaladin is playing with a stone, just like Tien did. It was @PhineasGage who pointed it, I think, but it changed completely how I view now Kaladin's word. A powerful lie, as Pattern would say.

[Vissy]

@Humming Actually, curiously my immediate thought when reading the scene where Kaladin toyed with the stone and admitted to Syl that he accepted Shadolin... was that Kaladin was saying "she reminds me of someone... you." For some reason that came to my mind even before Tien, as a sporadic Syladin shipper xD

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I really would not surprise me if Shallan and Adolin get divorced. The fact we didn't even see the wedding and how rushed it feels really leads me to believe that this isn't over by a long shot and drama will follow.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. It feels like everyone expects Brandon to treat marriage very seriously and strictly, which he does, but to ignore divorce is to ignore a very large part of marriage, even if it's a part we don't like. It would be foolish to expect him to never broach this subject, and in fact he already has by bringing up what a taboo it is in Vorin cultures. 

Now off I go to post this in the new topic I see you posted about.

[Slay This Rock]

On 11/15/2017 at 0:13 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

 

• Unless I'm missing something, I don't think there was any reason given in text for the origins (or specifics) of Adolin's problems with forming long lasting romantic relationships. Can we consider this to be cured or mostly cured now? If so, why? If not, might it come up again in future? (I hope not as that would be really frustrating)

Well. I think Adolin tends to lose interest after a while and the past romances partner tends to be too single faced.  In that he and Shallan would be excellent together.  Plus the possibilities of lightweaving bed time activities...  Adolin have found himself quite a catch this time.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

14 minutes ago, moejarv said:

Well. I think Adolin tends to lose interest after a while and the past romances partner tends to be too single faced.  In that he and Shallan would be excellent together.Plus the possibilities of lightweaving bed time activities... 

Shallan didn't have any single faced romances in the past. Just Kabsal, who got a lot more screen time that any of Adolin's relationships. And I can't see how something like that would make them excellent for each other. Previous failed romantic relationship would indicate possible failure in the future. We haven't seen Adolin taking a look on what didn't work in the past so he can work on fixing them, and if these issues don't resurface in the future because he found the right girl who magically fixed his problems, then what was the point of them? Just a cute plot device for his character? And a relationship needs match more than sexual attraction and playfulness in the bedroom (which I don't believe is something that BS will portay) to work, in my opinion.

14 minutes ago, moejarv said:

Adolin have found himself quite a catch this time.

I hope you said that in a playful and joking manner. Otherwise, the phrasing makes me a bit uncomfortable, and as Shallan stated she isn't anyones catch to be given away. Not to mention that in her current state of mind she isn't much of a catch, in my opinion.

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by DimChatz

[Rainier]

2 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Previous failed romantic relationship would indicate possible failure in the future. We haven't seen Adolin taking a look on what didn't work in the past so he can work on fixing them, and if these issues don't resurface in the future because he found the right girl who magically fixed his problems, then what was the point of them? Just a cute plot device for his character?

This drives me nuts, too. The entire first book we only learn three things about Adolin: he's loyal to his father and family, he's a good soldier and a better duelist, and he can't keep a woman interested if his life depends on it. It's a constant theme, and he even goes through several women on the way. Where did that go? What happened to that Adolin? He's just as rich, powerful, and high-status as ever, so that hasn't changed. He's still as handsome and charming as always. There's been no serious changes to his attractiveness to the other sex, or to his method of dealing with them. So where the hell is the Adolin that drives women away? Why are we only ever told about him but we never see him? We get one scene where he turns a date into an excuse to investigate the cut strap, and that's about it for Adolin the womanizer.

It seems like it was just a quick prop for book one, and now that we're past that it doesn't matter anymore so this aspect of his character is discarded.

I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin over his checkered dating past, because why else would you give him a checkered dating past? I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin at all, because there doesn't seem to be any conflict between any of these characters. All of the conflict is self-contained in each of them, and while that's a nice style for some thing, it left this particular arrangement lacking.

[DeployParachute]

1 hour ago, Humming said:

Yeah, I didn't notice when I read the book that Kaladin is playing with a stone, just like Tien did. It was @PhineasGage who pointed it, I think, but it changed completely how I view now Kaladin's word. A powerful lie, as Pattern would say.

oh come on, I earned like, 20 rep for my post on the stone, you can't just give it to Phineas...

Also, where can I find a link to this "shardpost" rant about how Shalladin is the worst thing ever, the one that I shouldn't subject myself to?  I'm kind of a masochist...

Edited December 19, 2017 by DeployParachute

[evanna]

35 minutes ago, Rainier said:

It seems like it was just a quick prop for book one, and now that we're past that it doesn't matter anymore so this aspect of his character is discarded.

I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin over his checkered dating past, because why else would you give him a checkered dating past? 

They're too perfect, aren't they? Yet since we barely can see Adolin's point of view, it's hard to say if he really had changed.
We can see how Adolin acts mostly through Shallan's eyes. I believe this is the point in her life when she is completely convinced that Adolin is what she needs to keep her more or less sane. Shallan wants to see him as an adorable prince charming and this is how we are seeing him as well. So there might be a lot going on with him behind the scenes.

Btw, is there anything about how Adolin sees Shallan in his chapters? Anything like "she was so beautiful"I can't remember that. I like the guy but he seemed to be caring more for his new clothing and Kaladin's reaction to them.

 

@Dreamstorm thanks for finding the original quote. And you've probably just convinced me that I really NEED to re-read these books

Edited December 19, 2017 by evanna