[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

12 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So, I agree that I think Kaladin will probably be guided by Shallan in some respect, but for different rreasons. 1) I don't think this will be his 4th ideal - it is too close to the 3rd (think of Teft's in which he includes himself as the person he most hates) and 2) I think Kaladin needs some leadership ideals. I posted an idea in the 4th WR ideal thread that went along the lines of protecting those who need it, allowing people to act in their own interests, and knowing when the difference between these. Perhaps something about empowering others to act  (which is probably the most important thing a leader can do imo)

Oh, it was mostly a joke on my part... I have absolutely no idea what the 4th Ideal might be. I agree that it may be time for some Leadership Ideals, though.

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, DimChatz said:

Oh, it was mostly a joke on my part

"Many a true word is spoken in jest"......  

@Ailvara - wow your notes are great! I added a few comments for your perusal. Only add them if you think it is useful - i wasn't sure how much WoR you wanted to add. I will find quotes if you need them - just let me know.

Edited December 15, 2017 by PhineasGage
Added thought

[insert_anagram_here]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I don't think that Veil is more like trueShallan than personaShallan is. Veil is perhaps more like the person trueShallan might have been had she not lived the life she has, but we are a product of our experiences as well as our inbuilt personalities so personaShallan (likely more a product of environment including education) is as "real" as Veil because that is how she has been taught to think and behave. That being said, this means that her personality traits are inherently conflicting with her upbringing and I can see that causing strife.

I think I was misunderstood (yet again!) on what I was trying to say with the excerpt I used with Veil. It seems I do miss a lot of English semantic details and please excuse me for that.

I didn't mean to say that Veil is the true Shallan personality but possibly the one that pre-existed the other ones. The first time that she pushed down a part of herself in order to 'not break but crack', that first part of her is what she later named as Veil. Described in the book as "the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. (...) the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever."

edit: By no means that personality is the full Shallan, because frankly that one would be an undeveloped person, a child, compared to the Shallan of multiple personalities and view points. She definitely needs to re-integrate all her character traits and memories into one, in order to balance out who the real Shallan actually is.

Edited December 15, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
added clarification

[Calyx]

13 hours ago, Gunzaan said:

I love this board and the varied opinions. I don’t agree with most of them.  This is a glaring example of plain ignorance.

 

”Who is clearly better than both of them”

 

That’s an absolute statement that you can’t quantify.

In "Adolin is better than both of them" I meant in terms of his mental state, though I didn't specify that and my comment is easy to interpret in other ways.

I think all three of them are actually good people, but you are right that this is something that can't be effectively quantified.

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I didn't mean to say that Veil is the true Shallan personality but possibly the one that pre-existed the other ones. The first time that she pushed down a part of herself in order to 'not break but crack', that first part of her is what she later named as Veil. Described in the book as "the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. (...) the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever."

I really like this distinction, and since we absolutely know that Radiant was made in OB, and we know she at least christened Veil in WoR, it makes sense that Veil comes before Radiant. However, if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that Veil predates what can be called personaShallan (or maskShallan, or wifeShallan, or betrothedShallan, or whatever it is she's showing to Adolin). That would be significant, but I think it's correct considering that this personality was there at least as far back as her mother's death. So Veil is the part of her that's a frenzied child, or a cornered woman. Radiant is the part of her that can stand to hold the sword without breaking, and is also Shallan wishing she was Jasnah. And what's left? Prim, proper Vorin girl ready with a quip.

[PhineasGage]

31 minutes ago, Calyx said:

In "Adolin is better than both of them" I meant in terms of his mental state, though I didn't specify that and my comment is easy to interpret in other ways

Oh I agree that Adolin is in a better place at the end of OB - though I wonder if he will feel guilt for Sadeas' murder and this might affect him going forward. I wouldn't worry about the rest of the comment you quoted though as it was unneccessarily harsh towards you - your points have been pretty clear thus far and I for one appreciate them  

 

3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I didn't mean to say that Veil is the true Shallan personality but possibly the one that pre-existed the other ones. The first time that she pushed down a part of herself in order to 'not break but crack', that first part of her is what she later named as Veil. Described in the book as "the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. (...) the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever."

Oh I see. I think we perhaps agree then that she is more like the person Shallan would have been without her upbringing, and thus predates the rest (tho she would have still been called "Shallan"? I can certainly get behind that idea. Veil does seem more "passionate" than the personaShallan we see - indeed, personaShallan seems to have lost her passion for scholarship etc that she definitely had in WoR and tWoK. Which I personally find a pity because it is Shallan's fascination with the various aspects of natural history and other bits of scholarship that I probably like the most about her. It is interesting that Veil is likely to have the "will to survive" parts to her - which means that "Veil" is likely to remain dominant - despite personaShallan being the anchored alt at the moment, I think this will be important and possibly problematic later.

 

7 minutes ago, Rainier said:

and is also Shallan wishing she was Jasnah. And what's left? Prim, proper Vorin girl ready with a quip.

Yes, which is probably why those of us worried about the end of OB find it so jarring. It just feels as false as we feel Shallan probably is at this point!

[Calyx]

17 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Oh I see. I think we perhaps agree then that she is more like the person Shallan would have been without her upbringing, and thus predates the rest (tho she would have still been called "Shallan"? I can certainly get behind that idea. Veil does seem more "passionate" than the personaShallan we see - indeed, personaShallan seems to have lost her passion for scholarship etc that she definitely had in WoR and tWoK. Which I personally find a pity because it is Shallan's fascination with the various aspects of natural history and other bits of scholarship that I probably like the most about her. It is interesting that Veil is likely to have the "will to survive" parts to her - which means that "Veil" is likely to remain dominant - despite personaShallan being the anchored alt at the moment, I think this will be important and possibly problematic later.

This lack of scholarship in Oathbringer bothered me quite a bit as well, and is one of the main difficulties I have with the realShallan / personaShallan distinction.

One of the best arguments against Shallan's relationship with Adolin is in love with personaShallan and not realShallan. The crux of this position is that Adolin has never met realShallan, and my disagreement here is why I am unconvinced that Adolin and Shallan's relationship is a negative (and, by extension, she will end up with Kaladin). Though people (@SLNC probably most effectively) have argued plausibly that Adolin has never met realShallan, I believe the passion for scholarship is something that belongs to realShallan. This is something that she displayed throughout Words of Radiance, but is infrequent in Oathbringer. There are times while reading that Shallan displays attributes from more than one of her personalities, and this seems indicative of either realShallan or approaching realShallan.

Adolin clearly interacts with and likes personaShallan and Radiant, and I believe he has seen glimpses of realShallan as well. The only reason he doesn't treat Veil as Shallan is that her appearance changes significantly - but he still clearly likes Veil, just isn't intimate with her.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I believe the passion for scholarship is something that belongs to realShallan.

I don't think so actually... She starts getting interested in natural history, her calling, by acting on Helaran's advice, when she was just drawing corpses after her mother's death.

Quote

“Draw plants,” Helaran said, “and animals. Safe things, Shallan. Don’t dwell on what happened.” Tears trickled down her cheeks.

That was also where she started to build personaShallan and bury realShallan.

But, to be fair, I believe, that personaShallan is part of realShallan... Veil is just what is closest to what was buried right now. It really is complicated.

EDIT: In hindsight, what Phin said below makes more sense.

Edited December 15, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Calyx said:

I believe the passion for scholarship is something that belongs to realShallan. This is something that she displayed throughout Words of Radiance, but is infrequent in Oathbringer. There are times while reading that Shallan displays attributes from more than one of her personalities, and this seems indicative of either realShallan or approaching realShallan.

Adolin clearly interacts with and likes personaShallan and Radiant, and I believe he has seen glimpses of realShallan as well. The only reason he doesn't treat Veil as Shallan is that her appearance changes significantly - but he still clearly likes Veil, just isn't intimate with her.

My position is that Adolin doesn't see much of realShallan because she wears a mask for him. She isn't an alt in WoR but she doesn't share her scholarship ith Adolin much at all and I wonder how much he knows about her genuine passion for it. Remember that most of her true scholarship happens when she is alone because it is related to the Radiants, Urithiru and the parshmen/voidbringer conundrum. She shares a bit then withdraws her position a bit (highstorm date) because he is viscerally opposed to her point and doesn't ask about evidence etc the way she asked Jasnah etc.

He also doesn't share her love of learning - we see him actively walk away from her when she engages in her own scholarly pursuits for example. I don't think he dislikes her intelligence and curiosity, but he doesn't actually value it particularly - indeed he is pleased that she just doesn't make him feel stupid, despite her being cleverer than him.

We don't need to share a partner's interests all the time, imo, but Shallan's intelligence is a primary part of who she is, so him not valuing it feels.... wrong to me. But I admit I might be projecting a bit. I personally value intelligence very highly.

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't think so actually... She starts getting interested in natural history, her calling, by acting on Helaran's advice, when she was just drawing corpses after her mother's death.

That was also where she started to build personaShallan and bury realShallan.

I actually disagree a bit here I'm afraid.

Helaran tells her to draw safe things, but not to take an interest in them. He essentially encourages her art, the questions come directly and only from Shallan. Her intelligence is not a cover, it is inherent to who she is. The art is also her, but it is the combination of her curiosity and her artistic nature that results in natural history becoming her calling.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I actually disagree a bit here I'm afraid.

Helaran tells her to draw safe things, but not to take an interest in them. He essentially encourages her art, the questions come directly and only from Shallan. Her intelligence is not a cover, it is inherent to who she is. The art is also her, but it is the combination of her curiosity and her artistic nature that results in natural history becoming her calling.

Right. That makes actually more sense.

[Ailvara]

9 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Amazing! @Ailvara I'll be adding my comments in there if that's okay. I'll try to cite as much as I can.

Absolutely, go for it!

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

@Ailvara - wow your notes are great! I added a few comments for your perusal. Only add them if you think it is useful - i wasn't sure how much WoR you wanted to add. I will find quotes if you need them - just let me know.

I think anything that is relevant to the discussion, and we have discussed WoR as well

1 hour ago, Calyx said:

Adolin clearly interacts with and likes personaShallan and Radiant, and I believe he has seen glimpses of realShallan as well. The only reason he doesn't treat Veil as Shallan is that her appearance changes significantly - but he still clearly likes Veil, just isn't intimate with her.

 

I actually wouldn't go so far as to say that Adolin wouldn't like realShallan. The bigger problem is, that she doesn't believe he would and so she hides her. That might change, but the longer she lies, the more difficult it's going to be to untangle it and after a year of marriage... I don't know. To me personally, to admit after such time that I have been lying to my SO all along, it would be much, much more difficult and stressful than telling it at the stage of relationship Shallan and Adolin are in OB.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

He also doesn't share her love of learning - we see him actively walk away from her when she engages in her own scholarly pursuits for example. I don't think he dislikes her intelligence and curiosity, but he doesn't actually value it particularly - indeed he is pleased that she just doesn't make him feel stupid, despite her being cleverer than him.

 

That's actually the part of how she crafted a perfect bride for him, isn't it? Not just losing her passion because of general diminishing herself, but possibly subconsciously specifically ripping out a part of her that doesn't go so well with Adolin. Again, he could accept it, but she doesn't give him this chance and when the whole lie falls apart at some point it just can be too much and too late.

I'll be closing the document soon, PM me with your emails if you want to continue editing, comments will be open to everyone.

I have just one suggestion, that we should use the comments as "to add" notes. One or two comments to clarify that not everybody agrees is perfectly fine, but let's not move the discussion out from this topic to the document, because 1) it'll simply take too much space 2) not everyone may see it and get involved in time. If you see, that some point is controversial, let's discuss it here and then post its summary as a correction.

[Calyx]

27 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I actually wouldn't go so far as to say that Adolin wouldn't like realShallan. The bigger problem is, that she doesn't believe he would and so she hides her. That might change, but the longer she lies, the more difficult it's going to be to untangle it and after a year of marriage... I don't know. To me personally, to admit after such time that I have been lying to my SO all along, it would be much, much more difficult and stressful than telling it at the stage of relationship Shallan and Adolin are in OB.

Absolutely, I agree! I think Adolin really would like realShallan, and does - he just doesn't realize that some parts of her he has seen belong to realShallan, because she hasn't even told him realShallan exists. I think Adolin would like realShallan, even more than he likes whatever combination of personaShallan / Radiant / realShallan that he currently defines as 'Shallan' - and that is the only way their relationship is going to be healthy or even survive.

Shallan has a lot of truth to share in the next book, hopefully with Pattern, Jasnah, Adolin, and - especially - herself. One thing I admire about Adolin's role in their relationship is that he doesn't go in and try to fix things. Shallan needs to fix herself.

[Awesomness]

This is how I interpret the ShallanShattering:

Once upon a time she was a normal girl with many and complex personality traits like everyone else.

Until she killed her mother and had to bury the memory and let her father take the blame, and see how he suffered and became more and more angry because of this. The repercussions of Brightlady Davar´s dead were huge, and all the family and household suffered from it. So Shallan obviusly felt guilty.

That´s when she starts pretanding to be the perfect daughter, and developed personaShallan by burying other traits, that will eventually evolve into Veil and Radiant.

PersonaShallan is  "funny, eager, shy, vorin, artist"  (note: this is also the Shallan that was expecting to marry whoever her father chose, and was ecstatic at the idea of an arranged marriage with a prince).  The perfect girl for surviving her complicated home life.

I think she buried, back then, some characteristics like her courage, self confidence, interest for the parshmen and the darkeyed household (she knew her father killed many of them, but didn´t do anything, she used to draw parshman but she was forbidden to do it because it was unseemly), radiantness (comlpetely forgot about all this), her ambition, among others.

When she left her home, and specially after the shipwreck, her personaShallan wasn´t equipped to deal with the new challenges, so she starts recovering some of her other traits, but then pushes them into the other personas.

The personaShallan for house Davar is the most similar to the personaShallan who tries to win over Adolin, she really doesn´t change that much. As she has to pretend to be the perfect fiance, gain the Kholins´ trust  and infiltrate the ghostblood, she picks some of her buried treats and baptizes this persona as Veil, then gives her a backstory. Eventually she will do a similar thing with Radiant.

Doing this allows her to go on doing what she needs to do without freezing or confronting her truths. 

So in a way, Veil did live all the events that traumatized Shallan,  because she was a bunch of characteristics that were buried afterwards because they dind´t go with the persona Shallan needed to be in order to avoid problems with her father.

(I think Shallan could even convince herself that her mother´s death was Veil or Radiant´s fault if she tried, as that surviving instinct is not exactly personaShallan, but more like the other personas)

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Calyx said:

I think Adolin really would like realShallan, and does - he just doesn't realize that some parts of her he has seen belong to realShallan, because she hasn't even told him realShallan exists. I think Adolin would like realShallan, even more than he likes whatever combination of personaShallan / Radiant / realShallan that he currently defines as 'Shallan'

Not wanting to discount your opinion on that, but may I ask: On what grounds do you think that? The fact, that Adolin already is just accepting everything? (no snark intended)

Veil is extremely different from personaShallan. Almost the polar opposite. Especially regarding flaring passion and vivaciousness.

We have a WoK annotation, that Sanderson think this is far more "herself."

Quote

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin.

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8

From this I can only assume(!), that should reintegration occur, that Veil will be a much, much more character-defining part of realShallan. personaShallan won't be gone, but just not as character-defining as she is now.

There is a reason many relationships don't end well, when one partner changes so much, that the love just fizzles out. I'm not saying, that it is impossible, but even if Adolin still loves realShallan... How does realShallan think about it? Veil doesn't like Adolin as a romantic partner. There are always two sides to it.

17 hours ago, Calyx said:

One thing I admire about Adolin's role in their relationship is that he doesn't go in and try to fix things. Shallan needs to fix herself.

I think, that a romantic relationship (with either Adolin or Kaladin, doesn't matter) atm, will make matters harder for her. Especially for the fact, that Veil doesn't accept Adolin as romantic partner. personaShallan likes to play things safe and... well the status quo is pretty safe. No, if something will prompt her to maybe do something against it, it will be a frayed bond with Pattern (of which we've already seen signs). That is what I think about it.

[GoddessIMHO]

In all the discussion of Adolin and Veil you can't forget that he loves her fashion sense when he sees Shallan wearing Veil's clothes.  Just saying. ..

[Greywatch she/her]

Yeah. Based on every single interaction where Adolin learns something new about Shallan - no matter what part of Shallan it comes from - he's always liked it, and seems to find every bit of her amazing. So yeah. I take it as an indication they have the right foundation going forward even though they have struggles coming up ahead, rather than proof they're destined to fail. Same text, different reading.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

In all the discussion of Adolin and Veil you can't forget that he loves her fashion sense when he sees Shallan wearing Veil's clothes.  Just saying. ..

IIRC Shallan chose the look of Veil, not Veil herself. Back then she was just a disguise and not a fractured part of her personality. So the look actually comes from Shallan. But there might have been some Veil influence in Shallan's choice, I'll admit, we just don't know it.

Regarding Adolin finding everything about Shallan great: First of all, we don't know what he was thinking in the scene with Veil's clothes. Secondly, what else would he have said after searching for her and being worried? That her outfit sucks and that he'd rather have her don a havah again? He's just as insecure about messing this up, so he plays it safe. He might have thought something different.

And these are all actually pretty harmless revelations, I don't know if he is going to very much like the fact, that Shallan is a thief and the murderer of both her parents. He might not care about it  or he might. I wouldn't dare to make a prediction yet and I don't see the clothes thing as an indicator for anything to be honest.

Edited December 16, 2017 by SLNC

[Ailvara]

I've just found another quote that I don't think we've had here:

Quote

“The evil force that rules the palace did not think highly of someone coming with a letter from the king.” She smiled at him. “You could say, um, it made that point quite clear.”

Smile. I need you to smile. I need what happened to be all right. Something that can simply roll off me. Please.

“Well…” Kaladin said. “I’m glad we … took a stab at this anyway.

 

 

(Storms I'm never going to get over it if these things continue to pop up.) I like how it shows Kaladin is not the only one that gets the cheer-up boost.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Ailvara

[Awesomness]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

I've just found another quote that I don't think we've had here:

(Storms I'm never going to get over it if these things continue to pop up.) I like how it shows Kaladin is not the only one that gets the cheer-up boost.

hahahahah There is no getting over this... I love this guy.

He is really empathic and knows how to help people when they need it. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I like how it shows Kaladin is not the only one that gets the cheer-up boost.

 

7 hours ago, Awesomness said:

He is really empathic and knows how to help people when they need it. 

Yes, that is exactly the chemistry I'm always talking about. Its funny really how Kaladin, a character, that is always, on the surface, depicted as brooding and reserved, can radiate this much hope and understanding and have this effect on Shallan. And, once again, she is one of the few people, who he actually smiles at.

[Xarallei]

I was incredibly disappointed with the way things ended with this. Shallan and Adolin always felt so very boring and shallow to me. The whole "Adolin gets me" thing is outright baffling. He has only every seen one side of her for the longest time and that side was always a mask to begin with. He sees Veil and Radiant in Oathbringer, but he never really sees Shallan imho. It feels so forced. If Sanderson had developed things in a more meaningful manner between the two maybe I could buy it, but I just don't. 

Now does that mean Kaladin and Shallan would work? Not necessarily. They both have a lot of growing to do I think before they could ever enter a truly healthy relationship with each other. But the thing is, it could have happened. It could have become something special. Instead their relationship is just brushed aside in a very unsatisfactory manner. Outside of one scene, there were no really good discussions/interactions between the two characters. And once that scene on the ship in Shadesmar happened I knew where the author was heading. It was very clear that he would push Shallan and Adolin. Kaladin and Shallan just had the potential to be more interesting to me. Maybe Sanderson was afraid they were too predictable a couple, but if he was going to go the Shallan and Adolin route he really needed to sell it and he just didn't. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Xarallei

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

14 hours ago, Xarallei said:

I was incredibly disappointed with the way things ended with this. Shallan and Adolin always felt so very boring and shallow to me. The whole "Adolin gets me" thing is outright baffling. He has only every seen one side of her for the longest time and that side was always a mask to begin with. He sees Veil and Radiant in Oathbringer, but he never really sees Shallan imho. It feels so forced. If Sanderson had developed things in a more meaningful manner between the two maybe I could buy it, but I just don't. 

Now does that mean Kaladin and Shallan would work? Not necessarily. They both have a lot of growing to do I think before they could ever enter a truly healthy relationship with each other. But the thing is, it could have happened. It could have become something special. Instead their relationship is just brushed aside in a very unsatisfactory manner. Outside of one scene, there were no really good discussions/interactions between the two characters. And once that scene on the ship in Shadesmar happened I knew where the author was heading. It was very clear that he would push Shallan and Adolin. Kaladin and Shallan just had the potential to be more interesting to me. Maybe Sanderson was afraid they were too predictable a couple, but if he was going to go the Shallan and Adolin route he really needed to sell it and he just didn't. 

Hello @Xarallei and welcome! Thanks for joinning us and contributing in this discussion. If you're just joinning I'd like to point you to two summeries to get you caught up and perhaps adress some of your doubts and concerns, as has been done for all of us.

A quick summery made by me 

A more thorough made by @Ailvara

 

I, sincerely, hope that these help!

Edited December 18, 2017 by DimChatz

[Dreamstorm]

Hi!  So two (not so quick) things...

First, a couple WoBs from the OB signing which I found were interesting, if not particularly dispositive.  There two on foreshadowing (quotes and links below.)  The first one (which is a bit garbled) is Brandon saying foreshadowing is the thing he loves to do the most.  The second is not completely on point (I bolded some of the interesting parts), but it discuses his perspective on the interaction between fan expectations and ensuring your foreshadowing works (in the context of, don't change what's going to happen even if fans guess where it's going because that will blow your foreshadowing.)  Neither tells us anything about Shalladin of course, but they do emphasize how important foreshadowing is to the author, and the latter does address the point that a story should move in the direction it needs to move, not to cater to fan wishes.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

*inaudible* find yourself foreshadowing in any of your books.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

All the time. Like, the thing I love to do the most.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/172-oathbringer-san-diego-signing/#e8568

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We have a lot of fan theories about your work, and most of them are wrong by necessity.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...That is true.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Are there things that are sort of directly designed to encourage or dissuade certain theories?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...As a member of Wheel of Time fandom growing up, I have experience on both sides of this now. And I decided after-- and this was partially looking at Robert Jordan's notes, looking at how he approached it, how it worked, being a fan-- I decided that that direction lies madness. Trying to stay ahead of the fans, trying-- if you try to twist so much that the fans can't guess, then that just means your foreshadowing is not going to work. On the other hand, doing too many in-jokes and things like this, it risks just making your book uninteresting, or not long-lasting.

And so while I read a lot of fan theories, and I even take them on occasion-- like Shardfork? That was totally a fan thing. Someone suggested that, I'm like, "Yeah, that would totally happen." But I kinda have to approach it from the frame of mind of "What would the characters do?" And I try not to actively write things that dissuade or encourage certain theories, I try to write what is best for the story. And let the fans then-- if they're going to guess, they're going to guess. If my foreshadowing is good, they probably are going to guess. At the same time, I know how insane they all are, 'cause I'm one of them, and I know they're just gonna go off on weird tangents. And that's just fine too.

So, it's this weird balance where I try to be part of the fandom, but make sure not being overly influenced by the fandom, and Wheel of Time gave me a lot of good practice on this. One of the things I really worried about with Wheel of Time was that the book would become a sequence of in-jokes for people who had read the series before. And yet, at the same time, as a fan, there were certain things I really wanted to see happen. I wanted to see certain characters meet up again after a long time apart, and I had been waiting for that for, like, a decade, and I was gonna make that happen, right? And I had to balance those two things, and that's just what I do with my books, even still.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8619

This next one could have a lot of meanings, but it confirms while a rock is just a rock to Tien, that the rock is used to symbolize other things in the book.  While we know the rock symbolizes Tien to Kaladin (that's pretty obvious), the vagueness in these "metaphorical relationships" made me think of @DeployParachute's theory.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Tien's <interest in> rocks. Is that just because he likes rocks, or is there something?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Not really. There'll be some metaphorical relationships underpinning it, but really the answer is, no, he just really likes rocks.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/172-oathbringer-san-diego-signing/#e8562

Second, I had a breakthrough on the keteks, which I doubt will be a breakthrough for many people (since it's pretty obvious) but... the title of the parts of each book is the ketek!  (It's ok to roll your eyes at me because that was really obvious.)  But I just noticed this over the weekend, so it got me thinking if we could analyze the keteks in conjunction which what occurs in each part as related to the subject matter of the ketek.  This ends up being interesting in OB (at least for us triangleaphites), sorta of meh in WoR because it's so obvious, and inscrutable in WoK because we don't know what the ketek is about (I guess; it kinda works.)  I take a stab at interpreting below.  Note I am fully aware that this method of interpreting the ketek could be incorrect, and that the part titles also fit into other aspects of the story in those parts (which I think is part of the genius of them.)

OB:  "United, new beginnings sing: 'Defying truth, love.  Truth defy!'  Sing beginnings, new unity."  Note the punctuation is different in the ketek then in the part headings.  The subject of the ketek is obvious here - the marriage of Adolin and Shallan - so I will look at their relationship in each of the parts as it relates to the section of the ketek used in the title.

• Part One: United
  • This is very easy, as Part One contains the largest collection of Shallan/Adolin relationship-building scenes in any of the books, with the sword fighting scene (which stretched over two chapters), meeting Ialai together and fighting Re-Shephir together.  They are truly united in their relationship.
• Part Two: New Beginnings Sing
  • I feel this is pretty easy, though would be controversial if I ever had the courage to float this ketek interpretation to a wider group.  Adolin is literally not present in this part, so the new beginnings could only be with respect to Shallan as the only member of the marriage who is present.  What does happen in this part is that Shallan draws her distracted picture of Kaladin and also (off-screen) flies with him to Thaylen City and to the surrounding mountains to draw Urithiru.  I can't see it in any way except as Kaladin as the "new beginning."  
• Part Three: Defying Truth, Love Truth
  • So this is a contradiction, as it implies our to-be-married couple is both defying truth and loving truth.  I think this makes sense in light of Shallan's split personality; on one hand she is denying truth by shunting her feelings for Kaladin onto Veil and insisting her full affection is for Adolin (we explicitly see this exact mental maneuver by Shallan a few times in this chapter), but on the other hand, personaShallan does love Adolin so that is her (personaShallan's) truth.
• Part Four: Defy! Sing Beginnings!
  • The use of the imperative seems to suggest that the choice is to defy (push off Veil) and imperatively sing beginnings.  This is the part where Kaladin and Shallan have the oft-cited conversation which shows Kaladin is glorifying Shallan's coping mechanism (which takes him out of the running as a good romantic match for Shallan at the moment) and also the part where Shallan and Adolin have their most-intimate conversation, where Shallan admits to her personas and Adolin admits to killing Sadeas.  Both of those things line up to a part which is cementing where Shallan is headed by book's end; aggressively defying her feelings and jumping suddenly into the beginning of her marriage.
• Part Five: New Unity
  • This one is also very easy, as since the book ends in the Adolin/Shallan marriage, this is a new type of unity.
• Overall, I think this suggests that the marriage is based on defying truth, as it was the "Defy!" which led to the singing beginnings and the new unity.  This is quote in line with at least this group's line of thinking.

WoR:  "Alight, winds approach deadly approaching winds alight."  This ketek is on Navani's journal of the events leading to the arrival of the Everstorm.  Although not 100% clear, I think this ketek is about the Everstorm itself, so I will look at it in the context of the events which happened that lead to the summoning of the Everstorm from the Listener perspective.  (Our Alethi were not the proximate cause of the Everstorm.)  I take the interludes at the end of each part as being part of the preceding part for these purposes.

• Part One: Alight
  • This is when the Listeners agree Eshonai will turn into stormform, and that decision is what cemented the fact the Everstorm would eventually be summoned.
• Part Two: Winds' Approach
  • This is when Eshonai actually took stormform and speaks to the crowd at Narak about the glories of stormform; the power of all those Listeners in stormform is what will cause the Everstorm.
• Part Three: Deadly
  • Eshonai is extremely aggressive in her "convincing" of the Listeners to all take stormform and wants to kill those who oppose, so she is acting in a deadly manner to squelch any resistance which could halt the summoning of the Everstorm.
• Part Four: The Approach
  • Venli and Eshonai argue about when to summon the Everstorm, with Eshonai's prevailing argument that they should wait for the Alethi to approach.  Alternatively, this can quite simply mean the approach of the Everstorm.
• Part Five: Winds Alight
  • Like Part 5 in OB, this is also obvious because this is the section where the Everstorm is summoned by the Listeners, and so its winds actually do descend on the Shattered Plains.
• Overall, I think it is very easy to put this ketek into my interpretation format and the result is obvious; the Everstorm arrived.

WoK: "Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above."  This is hard as we don't know what this ketek is about.  It is a death rattle from a Herdazian, so we know it's of Odium and speaks of something in the future.  I'm going to interpret it as Dalinar discovering Honor is dead (i.e. his visions during the storm showed him that there was no Almighty above.)

• Part One: Above Silence
  • The difficult part of the interpretation I chose is that Dalinar isn't in parts one and three.  However, if we look at the effect of Honor's death on Kaladin and Shallan, I think we can make these parts work, though they are not the most convincing.  Here we have two people in very desperate situations; Kaladin as a slave and his early days on the bridge crews and Shallan needing to steal from Jasnah in order to save her family.  Although I don't like how "above" could correlate to "better than" Honor (the silence), it can also just mean "outside of" Honor, in which both characters were placed in dishonorable situations (Kaladin where other men are acting dishonorably by wasting bridgeman lives, and Shallan where she is forced to act dishonorably to save her family.)  I am not particularly convinced of my own interpretation.
• Part Two: The Illuminating Storms
  • This one is fairly easy, too, as it is during highstorms when Dalinar receives his visions (which begin to illuminate what he will eventually learn at the end of the book.)
• Part Three: Dying
  • Following through on my intro to part one, this part ends with an extreme low point for both Kaladin and Shallan; Kaladin's flashback shows Amaram slaughtering his men (the very embodiment of death of honor) and Shallan is abandoned by Jasnah after her treachery is uncovered (Jasnah saw that Honor was dead within Shallan by virtue of her theft.)  Again, I do think parts one and three are the weakest.
• Part Four: Storm's Illumination
  • Dalinar receives more illuminating visions from Honor during the highstorm.  (Note the Stormfather, i.e. the storm itself, is the one sending these.)  For another take, we also have Sadeas' betrayal which is another example of Honor being dead inside men, as this action was also (like Amaram's treachery) the very embodiment of the death of Honor.
• Part Five: The Silence Above
  • Like the other two books, this is the easiest, as this is the part where Dalinar actually learns Honor is dead, and that there is nothing "above" (in the heavens) but silence.

Alright, this was very long, but I had fun if you guys managed to read to the end!  Thank you for providing a safe thread to share my thoughts!

[Awesomness]

Has anyone read the books in a different language? English is too simple... I´m sure the different versions could give better insight on the meaning (kind of with the Harry Potter´s RAB mystery).

[Ailvara]

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

Has anyone read the books in a different language? English is too simple... I´m sure the different versions could give better insight on the meaning (kind of with the Harry Potter´s RAB mystery).

The Polish version would be cool for that because the endless word forms allow for little ambiguity - all ofc assuming, that the translator consulted it all well with Brandon. Unfortunately, OB translation is divided into two parts and for now, I can only check the first two pieces of the ketek. The only thing that I can see clarified is that "united" refers to those who sing and "new beginnings" are sung. Not surprising, but I guess we could try to interpret it somewhat differently. I'll let you know more in April.

@Dreamstorm My mind was blown when I first noticed that as well. I wouldn't necessarily interpret the OB part titles with regard to ASK (especially Unity has so many meanings there), though maybe it is a part of it... It was written for the wedding after all. So I wonder if it's somewhat a coincidence, that the wedding ketek turned out to be also the right one for chapter titles, or if he actually meant for the romantic storyline to be that important. Maybe a mix of both.

On 17.12.2017 at 6:07 PM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Quote

“Oh, them,” Syl said. “Well, I know that you don’t back down from fights. You’ve lost the round, but—”

“No,” he said. “Her choice is made. You can see it.”

“I can?”

“You should be able to.” 

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1201). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

I should be able to see it; I couldn't agree more.  Except that I am just still not seeing it.  Kind of like I didn't see the actual wedding.  I can't help but wonder if Sanderson wants us to not see it, wants us to doubt, wants us to question, and wants us to call foul.  

That's actually from full book reactions, but I absolutely love this as a piece of foreshadowing/fourth wall breaking.

EDIT By now I can't help but get extremely suspicious when someone uses question marks (Shallan hearing Wit's? voice, Kaladin feeling acceptance? and so on)

Edited December 18, 2017 by Ailvara