[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[DeployParachute]

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

 I think this is kind of what I meant, I can see raising a child is amazing and that it is an achievement because it is storming hard. I was more feeling that the physical act of getting one is less so because literally anyone can manage it. I am not a parent myself (obviously) though I am prepared to concede that I may change my mind about how I feel on this should I have children in the future. 

And perhaps should you decide to have your own child, however many years down the road, someone on these forums can remind you that 9 mo of pregnancy and x-number of hours of hard labor to deliver said child is not an achievement in itself .

I kid, I kid, couldn't resist poking some fun at you a bit, cause I'm pretty sure if I had told my wife that her 8 hours of hard labor to bring our first child into the world was not an achievement, I probably would not have been around to enjoy OB. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, jamskinner said:

I don't see how brandon is spreading false messages.  I think most people's problem is that there is not any post marriage scenes to judge shallan by. So then we are all just seeing what we want to see.  People don't want to wait 3 years for the result 

Look this definitely got out of hand. I have my opinion on this, you have yours. It is fine.

[Darvys]

8 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

Shallan/Pattern:

Their relationship is much different. For one thing at one point Shallan actually tells Pattern she hates him. (Now I think a lot of this is self hate at how she has made use of Pattern in killing her mother but the point remains that she has a lot of resentment built up towards him) This is the foundations of their conscious bond. As Pattern grows in awareness their relationship very much stays in the academic. Experientation with lies and truth. They aren't best buddies. Shallan resents being tied to him but still makes use of him as you would a tool. When in Shadesmar we hardly see them interact at all unless Shallan needs something. (As opposed to Kaladin who flips his lid when Syl gets locked up) 

This is something of a tangent but couldn't let this slide unanswered.

That's what Pattern understood as it was in lign with his expectation that she'd kill him at some point, i don't think she was talking to him, but to the woman who ruined her childhood. Maybe that misconception on his side is what makes him keep his distance, but i'm more inclined to it just being his nature as a Cryptic. Shallan was never seen to behave in a way or say something that would point to her resenting their bond, she found the use of the sword revolting because of the memories it brought, but in her mind there was a distinction between the spren and the weapon. In Shadesmar, we get few povs with them just chilling to be able to have conversations, they're mostly on the run, even Kaladin had only a few exchanges with Syl, beyond that if you've read the thread you'll have passed a few theories that might explain Pattern's aloofness in this book, relating to a supposed fraying of his bond with Shallan (and not because she hates him).

 

[jamskinner]

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Look this definitely got out of hand. I have my opinion on this, you have yours. It is fine.

No one reads fiction for a medical diagnosis.  They just try to relate to characters. 

That said I don't see anywhere in this book where it says shallans marriage will fix her problems. She might think that but as we have seen she has issues.

As I said before people read between the lines and fill it in with their own views. I don't think it is fair to do that as a way to attack the author.  There is nothing wrong with seeing what may or may not be their but to suggest the author is responsible for any poor decisions someone makes is flat out wrong. This is not a medical manual. 

If that is not what you are saying I suggest you edit your post. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

If that is not what you are saying I suggest you edit your post. 

No, I stand behind my opinion, that when you release something to the public you have some (not sole) responsibility to educate, especially when you touch real world issues on which the general public still has no good knowledge about.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[AubreyWrites she/her]

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

This is something of a tangent but couldn't let this slide unanswered.

That's what Pattern understood as it was in lign with his expectation that she'd kill him at some point, i don't think she was talking to him, but to the woman who ruined her childhood. Maybe that misconception on his side is what makes him keep his distance, but i'm more inclined to it just being his nature as a Cryptic. Shallan was never seen to behave in a way or say something that would point to her resenting their bond, she found the use of the sword revolting because of the memories it brought, but in her mind there was a distinction between the spren and the weapon. In Shadesmar, we get few povs with them just chilling to be able to have conversations, they're mostly on the run, even Kaladin had only a few exchanges with Syl, beyond that if you've read the thread you'll have passed a few theories that might explain Pattern's aloofness in this book, relating to a supposed fraying of his bond with Shallan (and not because she hates him).

 

Yes I have read and agreed/commented on the theories about Pattern. And the point about Shadesmar still stands. Yes Pattern is being aloof but we don't really see Shallan going out of her way to engage with him either. When Syl's bond with Kaladin frayed we saw her becoming more childlike not Kaladin keeping his distance from her. In fact he tries to engage with her several times and then dismisses her lack of reciprocation as down to her whimsical nature. Shallan doesn't even seem to notice Pattern being less chatty and more aloof. 

In fact I actually said that I think it is self hate she is externalizing into pattern.  She asks why her mother tried to kill her- she loved her mother. And then she understands that her mother tried to kill her because of Pattern. Because of what she could do because of her bond with Pattern. Which is easier to do? Hate the woman she called mother whom she loved or hate 'the Spren that caused it all' (im being sarcastic here becasuse we know Pattern didn't cause any of it) which is why I call it externalized self hate. 

 

“Why did she try to kill me, Pattern?” Shallan whispered. “Mmm . . .” “It started when she found out what I could do.” She remembered it now. Her mother’s arrival, with a friend Shallan didn’t recognize, to confront her father. Her mother’s shouts, arguing with her father. Mother calling Shallan one of them. Her father barging in. Mother’s friend with a knife, the two struggling, the friend getting cut in the arm. Blood spilled on the carpet. The friend had won that fight, eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground. Mother took the knife and came for Shallan. And then . . . And then a sword in Shallan’s hands. “He let everyone believe that he’d killed her,” Shallan whispered. “That he’d murdered his wife and her lover in a rage, when I was the one who had actually killed them. He lied to protect me.” “I know.”

"That secret destroyed him. It destroyed our entire family.” “I know.” “I hate you,” she whispered, staring into her mother’s dead eyes. “I know.” Pattern buzzed softly. “Eventually, you will kill me, and you will have your revenge.” “I don’t want revenge. I want my family.”

- Words of  Radiance 

 

My point being, their bond as vastly different compared to other bonds. They are in Shadesmar- he has an actual body more resembling a human one - giving them more common ground and yet the only real time they talk is when she needs something or wants to discuss something more academic in nature. It's just contrasting the different nature of the bonds between different KR

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Hate the woman she called mother whom she loved or hate 'the Spren that caused it all' (im being sarcastic here becasuse we know Pattern didn't cause any of it) which is why I call it externalized self hate. 

Yeah, that sounds exactly like the mental gymnastics Shallan would do. And well done on the quote. I nearly forgot that.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

No, I stand behind my opinion, that when you release something to the public you have some (not sole) responsibility to educate, especially when you touch real world issues on which the general public still has no good knowledge about.

I am unclear on what this responsibility entails. Does it mean the author must study the real world equivalent of the mental issue, and devote a character's arc to the successful and medically confirmed treatment of the issue?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, straits said:

Does it mean the author must study the real world equivalent of the mental issue

Obviously, otherwise it would be unrealistic.

5 minutes ago, straits said:

and devote a character's arc to the successful and medically confirmed treatment of the issue?

In a perfect world, yes. It isn't wrong to add-in some bad decisions into that, but you shouldn't suggest a closure right after a bad decision was made. Or if you do, then disclaim in the Author's Notes. It isn't that hard to add a sentence at the end of the book and say "Shallan's arc represents a real world issue of dissociation, if you suffer from the same, please seek professional help." or something similar.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

Hi all. I'm a bit under the weather today so i am a bit rambly/incoherent so if I am unclear or have missed anything important I'm really sorry. 

19 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

What I have always appreciated from Brandon's books is that each book even when part of a series feels like a whole book. We have a beginning, middle, end. It's not THE end but is ONE end to each particular book. 

Yes I agree - this was particularly well done in the 1st Mistborn trilogy - it was really difficult to predict where the next book was going. Stormlight is a more intricate story so the arcs don't (and can't) tie up quite so neatly. I think this may be the major problem most of us are facing here. We expected the end to feel complete and are torn between the idea that it must be because it is a Sanderson book, and can't  be because it feels "too easy". 

It is a testament to how well he wrote the characters that we have spent so much time agonisng over where they are going. We know someone is going to suffer because the end of the world is happening, but none of us want any of them to suffer if we could help it. They will have to though if they are to grow as characters. 

19 hours ago, Darvys said:

Meh, a bit of hysteria will be nice. Want to count the number of readers who will be willing to give up their firstborn for a Shallan excerpt when the time comes ?

Myself, i don't really share the feeling, that's because i believe that you shippers and i (yeah, i'll never admit to it) are right in our assumptions concerning Shallan's arc in this book, it's the doubt that's creating so much tension, once you accept that what we've been guessing is what's been intended it all kinda fits, we might have hoped for it to be clearer from the text, but that would be no fun either.

I would. I have too much doubt in my own ability to interpret the literary devices to feel otherwise. I also am concerned that my own Shalladin prefernce means I am more inclined to see material that supports Shalladin than Shadolin. This is the main reason I get annoyed when Adolin fans refuse to give me material to support their assertions regarding him - I know I am probably missing the more subtle bits and I need help finding it. How am I supposed to appreciate those arguements without the canon material?

Also, as previously mentioned, I'm not 100% about the idea that having a chld is an inherent "achievement" so it probably would be much easier for me than most  

19 hours ago, Prelude said:

If I open SA4 and Shallan has her hand on a burgeoning baby bump I may throw the book across the room. I am a mom with three beautiful kids. Kids don’t fix martial relationship  problems if anything I believe they shine lights on the problems. I shudder to think there being a kid with Shallan as a mom. How confusing would it be for the poor kid. Who is mom today? 

And I don’t know. What if while being intimate with Shallan Veil bleeds through and is like bored and if it’s Radient rolls her eyes at Andolin in the moment. I never got the sense she really gained any control over them. Just saying 

My comment maybe really random to the progression of the thread. I’m really tired with getting no sleep over this book and telling you all now I’m not as smart as you all. So thanks again for letting my chime in random not well written thoughts. 

Firstly I am currently watching BS's Q&A from one of the launch parties on Youtube and he gets asked a question about which books he'd throw across the room and I loled when I saw your comment! 

Secondly I completely agree with the bit I put in bold. I suspect that this actually won't happen because (a) BS writes PG books so we won't see that intimacy and (b) because the Shallan alt is likely to hold on to control quite well in those situations , but the point is that it could. Imagine being intimate with your SO and halfway through they decide to get up and walk away because they no longer fancy you. *shudders* Poor Adolin. 

19 hours ago, Egomere said:

I will say again - it's not that Shallan ends up with Adolin - I'll admit I find his character just too bland (great hair, smile, everyone loves him and never seems to have to deal with consequences of his actions; Sadeas anyone?) rather than with Kaladin, it's just how the choice was made just felt far too rushed, and kind of trite, with some potentially great scenes being ignored completely. (Helaran, flight to oathgate etc...) Which I feel wont ever be addressed now because if Book 4 does have a year time sink then they will never come up (because if they were they would have already happened Now. 

I've been thinking a lot about this and how it could work that nothing worth writing about is going to happen for the next year and I've come up with some ideas that might work.

1) Shallan and Adolin go somewhere away from Urithiru - my preferred place would be Kharbranth (Palaneaum)

In this way, Shallan is separated from potentially conflicting situations like her feelings for Kaladin, the needs of the Ghostbloods, her brothers wanting to know what has actually happened, and combat situations. This could work in line with an extended honeymoon for Shallan and Adolin and would help her give the Shallan aspect more agency and perceived control. The control might seem to be in place when the book starts but it may not actually be complete because how can she know it is working if she never tests it under stress.

2) Kaladin is sent away for much/most/all of the time.

There are going to be a lot of refugees all over Roshar - the Fused have taken Iri etc, but there may be plenty of normal people just wanting to get out. On top of that places like Hearthstone etc have been battered and bruised leaving people homeless and possibly starving as a consequence of disrupted food supplies. If Alethkar is anything the UK for example, it is only 3 days away from starvation at the best of times. This (in case it wasn't clear) is not the best of times  Kaladin and the Windrunners are in the best position to go all over Roshar and help out, and get people to safety/an Oathgate / shelter etc. This also adds the benefit of not stressing Kaladin in terms of him having to manage the issues he had when he realised that neither the Parshend nor the humans deserved to be killed in this war. If he isn't stressed, he also won't progress. Kaladin is very much a main character and likely to remain so for the whole front 5 books. We will see him level up but he still needs time to understand that 4th ideal before he can say the words and live them.

3) Adolin and Shallan go elsewhere in Alethkar to try to stabilise some of the countryside, taking in refugees and restarting the economy - it is going to be Adolin's job after all as HighPrince.. This would be the situation if Adolin is sent somewhere and Shallan follows (in my mind, in (1) it is Shallan who is the person sent, and Adolin follows).  Shallan would be required to fill the role of "perfect" Alethi wife here and again, may feel she has gained control etc. 

So there must be a scenario where they all stay at Urithiru but I cannot see how this wouldn't potentially aggravate Shallan's conflict. Even if Shalladin is not a thing, simply being in the presence of the Ghostbloods (who want Veil, not Shallan) should be enough to raise conflict - which would be strange to not write about. An author writes the interesting bits of a person's life, not the every day stuff - or the repetitive stuff so presumably there must be relatively little conflict of great import in the next year during the timeskip? 

18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Just want to note that this doesn’t necessarily mean Shallan and Kaladin have a romantic relationship - but I think there needs to be something more for me to feel it was worth the tons of page time. 

Just to weigh in on the discussion between @SLNC @Darvys and @straits, I think this is a hard issue. Yes, I totally agree that we do not want to stifle artistic creativity by allowing authors to only create plotlines where the characters make healthy decisions the reader population would want to emulate. But on the other hand, media and artistic portrayals definitely effect social norms. If you have enough books where the girls/women find salvation in a strong man who solves their issues, then this will become something that influences how women are seen/behave in society. So, I do think writers have some responsibility to their readers (and women in my example) in how those decisions are portrayed. I have a different touch point here than @SLNC (women agency vs mental health), but you can’t completely absolve any artist of responsibility to help shape social norms in a positive manner. (Another example is Hollywood’s lack of portrayal of people of color and trying to fit those characters into side roles, like the funny sidekick.)

Just a small note, @PhineasGage if you are talking about me being offended by @Greywatch, we worked it out as they were not referring to the point I thought in the particular comment which upset me. But I do hope this isn’t perceived as an Adolin-bashing thread (though I know some people who post aren’t the hugest Adolin fans.) I see it as an “ending of Shallan’s romantic arc in OB”-bashing thread, and I think (sorry if I’m wrong) @Greywatch is on board with that, lol. 

I was actually referring to myself - sorry, I wasn't trying to implicate anyone else.  I was working on the same principle as the idea that if you are in a lecture room and one person asks a question, then it should be assumed that at least one other person is equally unsure but may not have the confidence to ask. I still feel that we have been maligned for Adolin bashing which as I've said is hypocritical. On the other hand, I did over-react and regardless of my own feelings (or really lack thereof ) regarding Adolin, I don't want people to feel they can't come in and say they like him and the story. I still think they should justify those comments if they want me to engage though. You can't debate feelings unless there's some hard information to back them up. I am not going to say people shouldn't like him. But I am a little sick of being told I am wrong for finding him meh.

18 hours ago, RenegadeShroom said:

I seriously do not understand how Adolin daring to try and be supportive of Shallan is somehow worse for Shallan than Kaladin, who literally hasn't yet grasped that Shallan has a problem with repressing memories and emotions and letting them fester for literal years, and thinks that she's beautiful anyway and in Adolin's position would be enabling her super unhealthy coping mechanisms? Kaladin's entire view of the situation is "yes, yes this is good and ideal, wow, that's admirable, I admire her strength for being able to do this" and that is fundamentally worse. At least Adolin recognises that something is the matter there. 

I also don't get this assertion that because Adolin chooses to be supportive and encouraging, that he's obviously going to be solely responsible for her healing. The narrative's not portraying him as a solution or a therapist, not at all. The end result in the book isn't a matter of Shallan being healed, it's a matter of all three characters making independent decisions about their lives and one another. Both Shallan and Kaladin came to the realisation that they'd be better off without each other in a romantic sense, independently of one another, and Shallan chose to commit herself to Adolin, because she genuinely likes him and sincerely believes that the two of them are good together. And Adolin was perfectly willing to step aside if it came to that -- as misguided as that may be -- entirely for Shallan's happiness, and was understanding and sympathetic of both her and Kaladin in the situation. The foundation for Shalladin is a lot weaker, and at this point would require that all three characters ignore everything they went through and learned about themselves and one another in this book. All based on, from what I can tell, Shallan and Kaladin having funny banter a few times? And that they're attracted to each other. Despite the fact that Shallan and Adolin are also attracted to each other, and that Shallan and Kaladin both made conscious decisions about themselves and each other.

On a more personal note, I would simply not trust Shallan in a romantic relationship with Kaladin. I'm certain it would be unhealthy for both of them in that scenario. Shadolin is far more palatable to me, namely in that their first meeting didn't start out with Shallan being an abusive racist jerk for laughs and so that she could impress someone and feel good about herself. Kaladin and Shallan have the potential to make great friends, and that's an interpretation I enjoy!

So I have a different read on this than you implied in your comment so I'm going to lay out my stance on the matter. I am not suggesting that it is the view held by everyone in this thread.

1) I think it is a little unfair to say that Kaladin is inherently supportive of Shallan's dissociation although I agree that he hasn't understood what is going on. When he says this, remember he was in a very bad place and had literally frozen in battle for the first time in years only days before that conversation happened. He is feeling guilty and inadequate because he let men (his men) on both sides of that fight die because he wasn't able to protect them all. He had gone from being able to lie to himself about the nature of war in that it was about "my side" and "the enemy" - and he'd just had to properly confront that "the enemy" might not actually be as clear cut as he'd always thought. I agree him suggesting that her ability to lie to herself being a good thing is not helpful at this stage, but I don't assume that he would think that if a) he realised she now identified herself as 3 people (he doesn't - he sees her as one person) or (b) if he'd already understood that lying to yourself is only a temporary fix when confronting difficult issues. 

On this note (and not specifically aimed at you @RenegadeShroom) , people keep saying it is ok for Adolin to recognise 3 people in Shallan and I want to point out again that she is not. Assuming she has OSDD (and the parallels are striking) then it needs to be understood that she is one person who has put arbitrary and imaginary walls up within herself to segregate her personality traits. For example, as an academic person (like Shallan) I might be happy reading and learning for the day. I may then go out that evening and have a drink with friends (like Veil). But I am one person doing both of those things and I see myself as a single identity which, like a gemstone may have multiple facets that reflect light in different ways depending on the way the stone is facing. Shallan thinks she is different stones. 

(2) I don't think I've seen anyone say that Adolin should be responsible for Shallan's healing, only that, given the way writers often portray women in fantasy (tho BS is not one of them in my opinion) it is possible that there will be the idea that Adolin will help her heal because he is her SO. As a woman with a mental health disorder, I must say I resent the idea that when I get better properly (i.e. no longer need treatment/drugs) that my SO (who is amazing and supportive and is doing all the right things) is responsible for that. My recovery is mine. It will be my achievement. He is a stabilising force in my life but not only is he not responsible for my improvement, he is not the cause of it.  He might help me stand up after I fall, but I will be standing on my legs afterwards. 

3) Please can you point out why you think Shallan is sincere in her love of Adolin? I mean canon evidence plus your interpretation please. In my mind, Shallan is a notorious unreliable narrator as a result of her dissociation. She also made her decision very quickly and it seemed to come almost mid-thought. If you would be so kind, I'd love to see your answers on the following questions;  Why do you think so much time was given to the Shallan/Kaladin interactions? Why do you think so much was missed from the Adolin/Shallan interactions (there is a lot off screen)? Do you dismisss Veil's feelings for Kaladin and if so why? Given that Adolin is treating her Alts differently from one another, how would you reconcile this being a good thing for Shallan in the long run? 

18 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

We might just be seeing different subtext here, but it is very apparent that Shallan not only still has feelings for Kaladin, she is not committing fully as Veil still wants Kaladin. In addition, she doesn't so much believe they are good together as she does that Adolin is necessary for her to keep her other alters in check. The Shallan side needs Adolin as an anchor to remain the dominant alt, and it is less them being good together as her being the perfect wife for him and him being the perfect anchor for her Shallan side. That is the problems. Also, there was the Chasm scene. That was a much more poignant and meaningful scene than any we've had for Shallan and Adolin.

As a point regarding the dominance of alts, the fact that Shallan makes her decision as Veil tries to take over makes me a little suspicious. If the Shallan alt is fighting to remain dominant, she needs a reason and Adolin is that reason. By committing to him, she can cement that aspect into a place of power. This is very much like "Wit's" advice for her to "rule over them" when she interfaces with Ashertmarn. If we assume, for a moment that it is definitely Hoid and that this advice is sound for Roshar, she still has a long way to go in terms of her recovery but she might have made her first steps. It could also be that she has misinterpreted it as "Shallan" the persona needing to rule rather than the complete Shallan needing to hold herself together and resist fracturing. Of course, if we work with the idea that it was Odium speaking those words then it is even more worrying for her. Thoughts?

18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I don't see it as Adolin vs Kaladin (and I think many people have moved away from that on here, though I know others have strong preferences one way of another.) Putting aside one's thoughts on the Shallan/Kaladin foreshadowing (a large reason why many people, myself included, think Kaladin will be the end game), the general sentiment is that it would also be quite bad for Shallan to have chosen to start a relationship with Kaladin. My concern is not that Shallan chose Adolin - he's a great guy and they have a decent relationship which I do think gets significant growth in OB, it's why she chose him. She "resolved" her fractured personality issues by choosing the version which Adolin saw/she wanted him to see, which is fundamentally unhealthy in my opinion (no one should rely on an outside person to define who they are.) Not to mention immediately after that moment, she goes back to gawking at Kaladin and then having to have an interpersonal conversation over which one to choose. This does not feel like a healthy decision (and her scene where she tells Adolin she chooses him is no better.) It's not about her choice of man, but about why she made that choice that is causing so much consternation here. 

Oh I massively ship Shalladin. But I don't think either Shallan or Kaladin are ready to commit to anyone right now. Assuming their growth is in line with WoR and the foreshadowing in WoR and OB then I still think they are a better bet. If not, well then it's anyones guess and I personally ship Shallan x Stick. I must admit though that I don;t see that much growth in their relationship. It is still fairly light and fluffy much of the time. I don't have my book on me (which is driving me mad, MAAAAAAAAD, *ahem) but I am not sure how many moments of complete honesty they have with one another. When Shallan has her thought about "this place of safety" (sometime when they are on the boat in shadesmar iirc) how deep has their conversation been at that point? As I said, I am aware of some cognitive bias and I really need someone to find these sequences and point them out to me.

15 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I am curious as to what "professional" help it is that some think exists in Roshar?  Wit is pretty much it and he did help her pull back to the main 3 personalities.  She is currently better off than she was after Veil's melt down. Being with Adolin gives her a little breathing room to regroup.  I expect the next book will be her crisis and level up.

I don't see the sort of foreshadowing of a break with Pattern like we saw with Syl. All we have is less interaction but no sign that he is distressed. I think does seem wrong that he is silent during the pre-wedding discussion. I believe she will face her issues alone just like the other Radiants have had to. 

I doubt there is any professional help. To be honest, mental health provisions are pretty crappy even in countries with state health like the UK. And we have loads more than countries with predominantly private health care. Crazies don't pay well you see...... (jk - I am under the care of a psychiatrist for my depression and fully consider myself crazy)

I am also not sure that Shallan is much better after her breakdown with Veil. She is less obviously broken sure, but that's how it works with dissociation, the alt that needs time goes offline for a bit then when it is ready it can come back up again. She clearly dissociates again several times during the battle of TC and even for a while afterwards. She wrestles control from Veil as Shallan and the alts seem to fall in line. What is not clear is how long this situation will last. There are possibilities for inherent conflict in her personality system and that could make things very ugly.

15 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Yes, I think Adolin "sees" the base Shallan and the others. He knows which one is current. You can argue that as good or bad but he does know.

Yes I agree that he can identify them. That isn't the problem so much as the fact he treats them differently. I mean for example, when I'm having an off day my SO always spots it. He is supportive but the basic ways he interacts with me don't change. He is maybe more likely to suggest I go and have a bath/shower (because when I'm really off I forget) and he is more likely to cook because I won't eat otherwise, but he'll still point out things on reddit or twitter that he found funny, and he'll try to engage me in discussion about something political etc etc. He is consistent and manages my lack thereof with aplomb. If Adolin was doing this for Shallan then I'd be all for him. The evidence however is that he is not. 

15 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

I really don't get the planned one year gap with so many immediate issues presenting itself at the end of OB.

Just staying with Shallan for now (and assuming that the end of OB in fact doesn't represent a start of some automatic, powered by power of love healing process for her of which we will only get to see the lovey-dovey, birth-giving end at the start of Book 4) - surely her problems won't stay static for a year - so much changed in just a few weeks of OB. And surely with how complicated her problems are BS won't just timeskip over them to some state of Shallan that is completely disconnected from her state at the end of OB. Afterall the journey is important and there won't be more of her flashbacks.

I said a few things above that might allow for the story to skip whilst having our 3 current mains (Shallan, Dalinar, Kaladin) not show any progression. Much as I'd like to see Jasnah really get to grips with being Queen, and Renarin really start being assertive like he is at the end of OB, their progression doesn't have to happen on screen. We may find a lot of minor characters progress as radiants/get squires and they get more confident with their powers in the timeskip but honestly, I don't need to read about every one of Bridge 4 learning to fly.

15 hours ago, SLNC said:

Exactly not. He only knows, that what is left of Shallan. That what she shows him. The slightly quirky, innocent, smart Shallan, that she always showed him. She even admits it in the book. She basically conned him all along and he fell in love with the con. He thinks, that Veil and Radiant are different persons and acts like that around them, but they're not. They're aspects of Shallan's personality, that she pushed away to give her to ability to keep functioning with all the different expectations, that were imposed on her, so she keeps switching between them to ignore the hurt that she feels when she is completely herself. He hasn't seen a bit of the true Shallan yet. Wit wanted her to revert back to the true Shallan. To reintegrate Veil and Radiant back into herself. To become herself again, but Adolin allows her - no, encourages her to keep being this shade of Shallan's personality - because that is the part of Shallan he loves. He doesn't love Radiant and he doesn't love Veil.

How can Shallan make an effort to recomplete her personality, when Adolin, her husband, only loves 1/3 of the true her? Even worse, another third of herself, Veil, is pining after another man.

So I think that Adolin hasn't identified this yet - that they are one person. If he did, surely he wouldn't treat them differently? I think Adolin could love the complete Shallan, but she seems to think he couldn't - presumably because she killed her mother and father? As he is also a murderer, that might allow her to open up a bit more about it, but I think that we will see that conversation - it would be way too important to skip surely? That implies that she might have spent a whole year married to him and he still doesn't know that she is a murderer thrice over! (I still think that her obvious remorse and guilt over those murders is a sharp divide between her and Adolin's obvious lack of remorse over Sadeas.)

15 hours ago, straits said:

Kaladin definitely has less insight into Shallan's mental state. It likely has something to do with the fact that the two of them have spoken a grand total of three times after their encounter in the chasms. You said it yourself in this post; their only exchanges are banter - likely because they aren't speaking in private to begin with, since she spends that time with her betrothed. 

As an aside, the entire frame of debating this "triangle" is partially flawed ITT. There seems to be an assumption that if Adolin were to step aside, and Shallan were to "choose" Kaladin, the latter would throw his critical thinking out of the window and fly away with Shallan. This is an unfounded assumption.

Regarding the bold bit - I agree to a point. Kaladin obviously has no idea she's completely split herself apart as you said, but actually if you notice, he always calls her Shallan to her face even when she looks like Veil or seems to be switching characters without an illusion. She sees them aspects of the whole and knows a good deal more about what Shallan has been through than Adolin does, and he still admires her. She did, after all, tell him everything about her abusive home life that she was consciously aware of when they were in the chasms together. I wonder if, on some level, she avoids him because he actually knows too much and is in a hugely powerful position over her if wanted to hurt her?

I'm afraid I don't know what "ITT" means but I very much agree with your final sentence. Kaladin is discerning and not that impulsive. He might just fly off with her, but it cannot be assumed.

15 hours ago, Prelude said:

Andolin knows Shallan? It wasn’t him who picked up on what Shallan was doing when she was attempting to draw (was it?) shame spren. We get several little hints of Kal discerning Shallans movtiations.  BS never shows us from Andolins POV where we see that he knows he beyond what she shows him. 

Yes this. If Shadolin is going to be the thing going forward I would have killed for scenes like this. I just haven't seen them. If anyone thinks they are there PLEASE show me.

14 hours ago, Diomedes said:

So, idk, if this has been already mentioned.... But the one of the first Adolin/ Shallan chapter is entitled:

"Set Up to Fail" (p.220). It is the "No Mating" one. 

This sums up my thoughts on the Adolin/Shallan ship neatly.  

Edit: It is actually the chapter before the meeting with Mraize and Ialai 

Mind. literally. blown.  

You, Sir, are a genius.

14 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think breaking a spren bond will be different based on the type of spren and also based on the person we are seeing the break through. Kaladin feels different things than Shallan, and for all we know, she is suppressing any issues Pattern may be having. It would certainly fit into her overall character (suppressing painful things.) That being said, it’s definitely not overt, but I also didn’t pick up on the break in Syl and Kaladin’s bond until he couldn’t draw in stormlight on the bridge expedition. I also think Shallan is engaging in behavior which goes against her order’s ideals of admitting truths, as numerous times on the book we see her actively pushing down painful thoughts (killing her mother with Pattern and Kaladin killing Heleran, for example.) Of course, I also think something is Very Wrong with Shallan, and I interpret things through that lense, so I can’t look past the things you mention like Pattern being less chatty and barely involved in Shallan’s post-TC viewpoints. 

This is a really good point that we know too little about the differences between spren and therefore the implied differences in their respective Nahel bonds.  I also think Pattern won't break like Syl did - it;s already happened. Kaladin breaking the bond with Syl mirrors Shallan killing Pattern as a child - not the other way round.

I also agree that your point about seeing things through a lens is crucial. In fact, I was thinking we should all consider doing a role swap for a few days and look for reasons to support Shadolin as is - the wedding the future relarionship etc (and assume that the arc is closed) to see if with a bit of digging we can get some insight into the "other side's" thinking. It would also be a good lesson in how to avoid cognitive bias. If anyone wants to try this let me know - a proper debate with solid evidence on both sides would be very helpful. Ideally we'd have a Shadolin shipper try to support Shalladin and vice versa imo - it would make things more equal.

14 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Could this be why her shard plate hasn't manifested? 

She is 4th level, her lightweaving is really great, but she can't soulcast either. In fact, she seems to be on the same level than Kaladin (very good with one surge, not so great with the other, blade, not plate).

Offtopic: I don't really know how I ended up thinking today (sure this thread has nothing to do with it.....) Wouldn't it be weird for non-radiants to date/marry a KR? They already have a life companion that follows them everywhere, know their thoughts and secrets. Wouldn't it be like being the second to your first/most important person?

Ooh that's a possibility. I had assumed that LW were a group that got their plate on the 5th ideal but add to it the issue of soul casting and you are probably right!

That makes me think - what if soulcasting well requires that you also know yourself well? It would explain how Jasnah soulcasts like a boss but also how she manifests objects in the cognitive realm - storms she managed to make part of the castle appear on her very first try. Jasnah Kholin definitely knows her own mind so is perhaps more comfortable with manipulating the perceptions of others/other things in the cognitve realm. Shallan does not know her own mind so her soulcasting is less impressive.

Oh one thing that comes to mind is the difference in how Wit and Shallan approach taking on an identity and I was wondering what others thought; Did anyone else notice in the epilogue that Wit took "others'" pain etc and used it to cloak himself whereas everything Shallan does comes from her? This reminded me of a scene that we got near the beginning of WoR where Tyn says something like "You really get into those drawings" and Shallan replies "No I put others into them"? What if she should be putting others into them - using her understanding of human nature and experience to flesh out her creations but currently she only uses her own and it hurts to do so because she keeps reopening old wounds, healing them, then opening them again throughout the fight? 

10 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

I think it would probably be different for each one considering the wide variance of the natures of  both Spren and KR. Take for example some of the the different types of bonds we have on display now.

Kaladin/Syl:

These two are obviously very close and as Kaladin progresses their bond deepens. Syl's understanding and perception of human behavior has expanded exponentially. She is capable of caring about Kaladin and wants to be involved in his life choices. She is Kaladin's confidante. I could see in the future any non Radient woman coming into his life might have the opportunity to feel intimidated by and playing second fiddle to their relationship.

Shallan/Pattern:

Their relationship is much different. For one thing at one point Shallan actually tells Pattern she hates him. (Now I think a lot of this is self hate at how she has made use of Pattern in killing her mother but the point remains that she has a lot of resentment built up towards him) This is the foundations of their conscious bond. As Pattern grows in awareness their relationship very much stays in the academic. Experientation with lies and truth. They aren't best buddies. Shallan resents being tied to him but still makes use of him as you would a tool. When in Shadesmar we hardly see them interact at all unless Shallan needs something. (As opposed to Kaladin who flips his lid when Syl gets locked up) 

Dalinar/StormFather:

This is the first Relationship we see reversed where the KR seeked to bond the spren instead of the otherway around with the Spren finding the KR. Their relationship is still evolving as well. At the beginning of OB the Stormfather is very resistant to being bound and to considering any form of change and by the end he has more or less accepted the Nahel bond. Their partnership is still very much on a professional level of colleagues working towards a common goal - not drinking buddies out to shoot the breeze and experiment with Dalinar's powers. In fact several times we see the storm father refuse to give information or help because he doesn't trust Dalinar. I don't think Navani is worried that Dalinar is suddenly going to keep all his confidences from her in preference for hashing it out  HighStorm style. 

 

Wonderful synopsis. Have an upvote. I must admit to hoping to see more of the interactions between spren and their radiants. We saw a bit of Jasnah and Ivory - and I must admit that whilst it was more clinical than eg Syl Kaladin, it was a good deal more personal than Shallan/Pattern sometimes is. I am sorry abut Shallan and Pattern but I think she will stop hating the blade (she doesn't hate Pattern - she hates the blade - she's separated the two in her mind like she's separated her identities) eventually - likely as a part of her progression towards the 5th Ideal. I think she needs to understand the ramifications of her 4th ideal first though. 

On that note, I am not sure we will see her progress in terms of level in book 4. I think we will get her level up in book 5.

10 hours ago, jamskinner said:

We see things different because we are not automatons 

I think the issue here is primarily that we literally don't see the reasons. They rarely get mentioned. There is too little canon evidence given when people make their assertions regarding Adolin. I don't much care whether you love Adolin or not but if you want to convince me why you think you are right I'm going to need more than just your feelings. Quote a passage, relate it to others in the books and explain your interpretation which is how you got to those feelings. Only then can there be any meaningful discussion.

9 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

And perhaps should you decide to have your own child, however many years down the road, someone on these forums can remind you that 9 mo of pregnancy and x-number of hours of hard labor to deliver said child is not an achievement in itself .

I kid, I kid, couldn't resist poking some fun at you a bit, cause I'm pretty sure if I had told my wife that her 8 hours of hard labor to bring our first child into the world was not an achievement, I probably would not have been around to enjoy OB. 

lol, I will, no doubt say those very words myself when I have to give birth (side note, its a really icky process - and looks exceedingly unappealing to me - why do people do it more than once??.)

As a point, I think I am still not quite making myself quite clear. I am exceedingly competitive and brought up to believe that only top marks were acceptable. To me, as a result, an achievement is something that no-one (or at least very few people) else can accomplish. More or less everyone ends up having kids. That makes it "ordinary" and not thus something I'd describe as an "achievement".  I do think raising kids well is one though - my cousin has a son and he's a great kid - very well behaved but in a natural and good way. He's just a genuinely cool kid - also his English, which is not his native language, is amazing for his age - storms, it amazing for anyone frankly. So she has achieved something there because not everyone can be a great parent. If your kids turn out to be decent people because of how you raised them (rather than despite it as most people seem to be) then that  is an achievement I can get behind!

 

 

[maxal she/her]

11 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

And perhaps should you decide to have your own child, however many years down the road, someone on these forums can remind you that 9 mo of pregnancy and x-number of hours of hard labor to deliver said child is not an achievement in itself .

I kid, I kid, couldn't resist poking some fun at you a bit, cause I'm pretty sure if I had told my wife that her 8 hours of hard labor to bring our first child into the world was not an achievement, I probably would not have been around to enjoy OB. 

8 hours? Try 18 hours...  Also nine months of pregnancy is a walk in the park because the media industry loves to make people believe there is nothing daunting in being pregnant and it will obviously be the most glorious 9 months of your life 

This being said, making a child is rather easy, but raising the child is incredibly complicated and hard mostly because you are dealing with another person which at times reminds you of yourself and at times doesn't. Each and every action you are taking might turn out being the wrong one and you will never know until years later where said kids will logged into the "I have a Bad Day Thread" and complain on how awful their parents are. Yeah having kids is a piece of cake.

I personally do not understand the strong resistance against Shallan having kids nor the ingrained idea within the readership the minute a woman has a child she is either: 1) succumbing to society pressure, 2) ingraining the idea women need to have children despite very few fantasy book ever broaching the topic of children, 3) boring and doomed to an uninteresting story arc.

Having children is not the equivalent of a death sentence for women: it by no way means those people stops being interesting because they have a child. It also does not mean their entire life will revolve around their kids, some of it will, but the idea a character such as Shallan would be ruined the second she gets pregnant is equivalent to having a very negative preconception of motherhood. People can both have children, interests and lead an fulfilling life.

And ground breaking news people. mothers can also have achievements outside of their kids. They can have work and personal achievements and no their entire life will not revolve purely around the "domestic chores". Yes, this is possible. In fact, the majority of the mothers I do know fall within this category.

I personally would be thrilled to read a fantasy character experiencing both marital life and motherhood because such books never speak of those things. When characters have children, it usually is after the series is over, in between arcs within a same series or they are old and their kids are adults. Motherhood is basically the no-man's land within fantasy, a path very few authors ever walk, so few I don't ever recall reading them.

As thus, I absolutely do not think Shallan having children with Adolin would be boring. Obviously, it will not be a major arc. Said kid won't be a protagonist, he won't pop into the story every two pages, but it would give the character something else to wrestle with, something interesting and something realistic because within real-life, it may be popular to bash on people having kids, but a great deal lot of people still decides to have them and no, they don't do it because society pressures them to do it. They do it because they want them, so what if Shallan and Adolin wants to have kids? It seems highly probably they will.

[straits]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Regarding the bold bit - I agree to a point. Kaladin obviously has no idea she's completely split herself apart as you said, but actually if you notice, he always calls her Shallan to her face even when she looks like Veil or seems to be switching characters without an illusion. She sees them aspects of the whole and knows a good deal more about what Shallan has been through than Adolin does, and he still admires her. She did, after all, tell him everything about her abusive home life that she was consciously aware of when they were in the chasms together. I wonder if, on some level, she avoids him because he actually knows too much and is in a hugely powerful position over her if wanted to hurt her?

I'm afraid I don't know what "ITT" means but I very much agree with your final sentence. Kaladin is discerning and not that impulsive. He might just fly off with her, but it cannot be assumed.

That's another good point. If she were confident enough about her attraction to her "chosen", Adolin, she wouldn't be deliberately avoiding Kaladin - in particular because he isn't really the "aggressive" element in the Kaladin-Shallan dynamic. It is her who impulsively wanted to flirt with him on several occasions, and she seems to be afraid of her own actions around him.

As an aside - ITT = in this thread; IIRC = if I recall correctly, FWIW = for what it's worth. Those used to puzzle me when I was new to the aSoIaF westeros forums.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

6 minutes ago, straits said:

I am unclear on what this responsibility entails. Does it mean the author must study the real world equivalent of the mental issue, and devote a character's arc to the successful and medically confirmed treatment of the issue?

 

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Obviously, otherwise it would be unrealistic.

In a perfect world, yes. It isn't wrong to add-in some bad decisions into that, but you shouldn't suggest a closure right after a bad decision was made. Or if you do, then disclaim in the Author's Notes.

This is a difficult one because who draws the line and where it lands would differ according to everyone. However I do come down more on the @SLNC side. Everyone has a measure of responsibility for what they put out into the world. Most of us are small fish with minimal widespread ripples in how we effect the world at large. For those with a platform large enough to reach a more widespread populace  the measure of responsibility increases to a point. This means research and a knowledge of how what you present may be taken. Note I said measure and not sole responsibility. Media in all its forms has a huge impact on culture and morality and the shifts they take. Adults aren't the only ones with exposure to media as well. Books/movies/tv etc. have a definite impact on kids/adolescents in their formative years. This can be for good or bad- it just is. 

This isn't to say that characters should never make bad decisions or decisions that aren't healthy. Otherwise where would your conflict and growth be? But aknowledgement either through interaction or consequence to clearly shows that these decisions may not be the best course of action even if the character continues down that path show that least the creator is aware and that it intentional and gives closure.

I believe Brandon is a responsible thoughtful writer. I think he does his research. That being said, having Shallan make a decision at the end of the book that is clearly not in her best interests (having nothing to do with either Kaladin or Adolin - just simply throwing herself into marriage and calling it good) and then boom the book ends with no resolution on the outcome of that decision does send a message. It will be 3 more years and then we don't even pick up where we left off - it's a one year time skip. ....that bothers me.

[straits]

21 minutes ago, SLNC said:

In a perfect world, yes. It isn't wrong to add-in some bad decisions into that, but you shouldn't suggest a closure right after a bad decision was made. Or if you do, then disclaim in the Author's Notes. It isn't that hard to add a sentence at the end of the book and say "Shallan's arc represents a real world issue of dissociation, if you suffer from the same, please seek professional help." or something similar.

The disclaimer is not a bad idea. But because reading a book requires a reader's mental projection of the events and characters, and is not tangibly defined as with a movie, it is harder to legally enforce.

I think this would open up a can of other problems, though. I put it in spoiler tags because it's a clear digression from the topic.

Spoiler

The handling of mental issues is not the only problematic theme in literature. Characterization of female/minority/other genders and sexual orientations is also a widely criticized topic because of the influence a writer can have on the reader's worldview. Not to mention the lionization of war criminals, imperialism, war profiteering, and justification of caste systems, racism, etc. Prominent characters who are popular with the fanbase may support some of these systems of oppression, and the authors may make cases for these systems in-story without the perpetrating characters ever facing justice.

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, maxal said:

As thus, I absolutely do not think Shallan having children with Adolin would be boring. Obviously, it will not be a major arc. Said kid won't be a protagonist, he won't pop into the story every two pages, but it would give the character something else to wrestle with, something interesting and something realistic because within real-life, it may be popular to bash on people having kids, but a great deal lot of people still decides to have them and no, they don't do it because society pressures them to do it. They do it because they want them, so what if Shallan and Adolin wants to have kids? It seems highly probably they will.

Quite simply, I think, that Shallan already has enough on her plate. She's not ready for motherhood, unless she finally begins to fix herself. She can't even take responsibilty for herself and you want her to take responsibility for a child, possibly children? Sure, Adolin will be there, but he also has plenty of of obligations and, from what I've been discerning, raising children is a mother's thing in Alethi culture.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[AubreyWrites she/her]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

lol, I will, no doubt say those very words myself when I have to give birth (side note, its a really icky process - and looks exceedingly unappealing to me - why do people do it more than once??.)

More than one woman has asked herself just after giving birth (points to self) .....

The mind is both a kind and tricksy mistress in that the passage of time usually highlights the end result as well as dimming the agonizing path to get there. And also a woman's perception going into birth has a lot to do with how the birth will go and how she will recall it in her mind afterwards. Pain is not necessarily suffering. Someone can experience pain ( example: pushing oneself in a marathon can be painful to the body but you wouldnt categorize yourself as suffering both because you chose to do this, it's not being done to you and you see the goal at the end of the finish line and know that there is purpose to your pain) 

suffering on the other hand is something no woman should have to experience during pregnancy/birth/postpartum.A lot of women experience this unfortunately. Whether lack of proper support from those around her to her perceptions and  fears surrounding the pain she is feeling. 

In this many things can help but I have found this to be one of the most helpful. 

Knowledge takes away fear and lack of fear takes away pain. (Obviously birth is still painful for most but the perception of that pain can be the difference between suffering and not suffering)

i didn't mean to spin off of this tangent. PM if you are interested in discussing more. I teach childbirth classes and am always interested in hearing difference peoples opinions. 

58 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally do not understand the strong resistance against Shallan having kids nor the ingrained idea within the readership the minute a woman has a child she is either: 1) succumbing to society pressure, 2) ingraining the idea women need to have children despite very few fantasy book ever broaching the topic of children, 3) boring and doomed to an uninteresting story arc.

Having children is not the equivalent of a death sentence for women: it by no way means those people stops being interesting because they have a child. It also does not mean their entire life will revolve around their kids, some of it will, but the idea a character such as Shallan would be ruined the second she gets pregnant is equivalent to having a very negative preconception of motherhood. People can both have children, interests and lead an fulfilling life.

It's not the resistance to Shallan having kids. It's the resistance to Shallan having kids RIGHT NOW. She's clearly not in a mental state healthy enough to be able to properly care for both them and herself. 

I was actually thinking this morning that it's true we don't hardly ever see children in their normal role as part of a family has a main plot point. I agree with you that I would love to read something's including that. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[PhineasGage]

22 minutes ago, straits said:

As an aside - ITT = in this thread; IIRC = if I recall correctly, FWIW = for what it's worth. Those used to puzzle me when I was new to the aSoIaF westeros forums.

Ah thank you. I knew iirc and fwiw but i'd never come across ITT before. I figured it might impact on how I read your sentence so it was worth checking.

Its been a long time since i lived on a discussion forum like this. Last time was between books 5 and 7 of Harry Potter. I didn't bother going back after the 7th book because I had pretty much guessed the major points before hand and didn't need to discuss my feelings to resolve them. Not the "Deathly Hallows" plotline of book 7 of course, as those weren't hinted at before, but the major threads that had been indicated in how the story as a whole panned out. 

24 minutes ago, maxal said:

This being said, making a child is rather easy, but raising the child is incredibly complicated and hard 

Yes, this. Thank you.

24 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally do not understand the strong resistance against Shallan having kids nor the ingrained idea within the readership the minute a woman has a child she is either: 1) succumbing to society pressure, 2) ingraining the idea women need to have children despite very few fantasy book ever broaching the topic of children, 3) boring and doomed to an uninteresting story arc.

I would say I am against it while she is so mentally fragile. Even if choosing Adolin is the right path and everything is hunky-dory,  she still needs time. Once she's ready I'm not inherently opposed to the idea.

On the subject of it being a problem, the issue is that there are a few "tropes" in literature that female characters are often boxed into. They usually fall into the "maiden", "mother" or "crone" archetypes. I don;t know about you but I am not only one of those three - indeed I am more than just those three as is every other woman I know. They may identify with one or more of those archetypes but it doesn't define who they are in their entirety. How many archetypes are there for male characters? Its a hell of a lot more than three. 

As long as Shallan doesn't lose that sense of uniqueness that we get, motherhood likely won't be an issue. However, a mother of a new-born that doesn't put the needs of her child first is not exactly doing her job. I am not saying an occasional laugh couldn't be had if Shallan has to stop in the middle of a battle to breastfeed, but it would get old pretty quickly. On top of that, given the way we know Alethi structure is stratified, she would be expected within world to behave according to certain principles. 

The issue is that plenty of women do have children because they are pressured into it. Particularly as they get older. Its so common its a sterotype that mothers/mothers-in-law talk longingly about grandchildren. I've had tutors ask why I am on my course rather than having a family - but they'd never say that to one of my male colleagues. When men get equal pressure about it I'll let it drop.

Also, while the subject doesn't come up in terms of making women have children in books, have a think about how unique Jasnah is - how many other adult female characters are completely defined in the fantasy genre by themselves? She is not the virginal or sexually provocative "maiden", she has a slight "mother" role with Shallan but despised teaching, and she has a slight "crone" role in that she is a provider of knowledge but she does so as a result of her own work. Many fantasy novels end up sidelining the female characters as a result of their female roles and I think the consensus is that we don't want that to happen to Shallan. If BS can pull off a happy mother scenario without Shallan losing her agency, fine. Perhaps I lack the imagination but I can't see how he'd manage it without her having to leave her child behind somewhere. Finally, as we are reading fantasy, most of us probably don't want to read more mundane topics when we could find out about the magic stuff. 

36 minutes ago, maxal said:

but the idea a character such as Shallan would be ruined the second she gets pregnant is equivalent to having a very negative preconception of motherhood.

No it isn't - it is a reflection on how poorly most authors handle the situation. 

38 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally would be thrilled to read a fantasy character experiencing both marital life and motherhood because such books never speak of those things.

We are - see Navani. We don't need another. Navani is no less a mother because Jasnah is an adult now. If Shallan goes down this route she needs to keep her agency. I am not sure how you make that happen in Alethi society. If BS pulls it off then fine but there could be very real conflict of a kind that will be unpleasant to read if Shallan has to choose between her child and Roshar as a whole. We've got enough broken children.

42 minutes ago, maxal said:

but a great deal lot of people still decides to have them and no, they don't do it because society pressures them to do it

More power to them. But just because that might be the norm where you are, doesn't mean it is the same for everyone. And in Alethi society we know there is pressure because Jasnah writes about it in the book Shallan reads in one of her WoR flashbacks.

12 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

I was actually thinking this morning that it's true we don't hardly ever see children in their normal role as part of a family has a main plot point. I agree with you that I would love to read something's including that. 

So I have some sympathy with the idea but I'm not sure its appropriate for fantasy. Why read a book that is designed to show off unusual situations if you have to fill it with every day situations? Doesn't it stop being fantasy then?

Some normal/everyday situations are useful as a way of reflecting the real world issues. But they tend to be limited to minor points. How often do we see people bathing or toileting or even eating except as minor points that help with world building and are used in the background for other things of more import? A small child to look after is something that changes your life to an enormous extent. If Shallan has a kid then even by the time of the next book it will still be under 1 year old. Kids that age are hard work and need a huge amount of time put into them. How much can Shallan contribute in terms of time to the KR if she has a baby with her? Yes she will still be valuable for her skills as a LW, her insights for natural history, as well as all the other things she has contributed so far, but is it actually fair to ask that of her when she will have a responsibility to her kid? Do we want to water down the fantasy elements of the story to investigate the idea of a working mum in the KR? Is that why we are reading the SA in the first place?

[maxal she/her]

Just now, SLNC said:

Quite simply, I think, that Shallan already has enough on her plate. She's not ready for motherhood, unless she finally begins to fix herself. She can't even take responsibilty for herself and you want her to take responsibility for child? Sure, Adolin will be there, but he also has plenty of of obligations and, from what I've been discerning, raising children is a mother's thing in Alethi culture.

I honestly doubt Shallan's story arc will keep on being about her multiple personalities. OB offered resolution in the sense Shallan finally agreed she was she and Veil/Radiant merely were disguises she used at times. This thread might disagrees with me, but I consider it a close case: just as Brandon couldn't afford writing another book focusing on Kaladin being depressed, he can't afford writing another book focusing on Shallan being fractured, especially since the response to OB is not as positive as the response to his other books was. Of course, the personas are more than that, but Shallan now seems to make the distinction and if it is likely she will have to deal with them all her life, just as Kaladin will always deal with depression, I do not see them being a major story arc again just as Kaladin being depressed wasn't a major arc this time around.

Within the Dalinar's flashbacks, we saw plenty of Navani despite her being a young mother: clearly having had Jasnah and Elhokar never prevented her from taking an active role within the Alethi society other than motherhood.  We obviously do not know how Shallan and Adolin as parents will find a balance, but I personally would find it incredibly interesting for fantasy to even attempt at broaching the subject of children because, despite it being the end of the world, life goes on. 

23 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

It's not the resistance to Shallan having kids. It's the resistance to Shallan having kids RIGHT NOW. She's clearly not in a mental state healthy enough to be able to properly care for both them and herself. 

I was actually thinking this morning that it's true we don't hardly ever see children in their normal role as part of a family has a main plot point. I agree with you that I would love to read something's including that. 

Brandon plans a one year gap in between book 3 and 4, so ample time for Shallan to get a stronger grasp onto herself. Also, if people were to wait for everything to be perfect in their life to have kids: they would never haven them. As such, even if Shallan has issues with herself, I do not see this as a show stopper for her to decide to have children: fi we were to wait until all of our issues were solved before having kids, again, we wouldn't have them. 

The fact fantasy almost never pictures parenthood as part of life within its narrative is exactly what makes me want to read it. 

[Harbour he/him]

I doubt Shallan and Adolin will have a kids in the 4th book. We have enough kids in OB to introduce the new one as a sideline anchors for the main characters. Sometimes BS doesnt have the time even for the main characters to deal with their problems, im not even talking about the whole new bunch of problems related to the kids. Kaladin has a brother to care about, and i suspect Elhokar's son would be among those things Elhokar passed to Kaladin. And im not sure it will be good for pacing and character development to introduced the new one kid/kids for Shallan and Adolin. They have enough problems to deal with besides the parentage.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

42 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So I have some sympathy with the idea but I'm not sure its appropriate for fantasy. Why read a book that is designed to show off unusual situations if you have to fill it with every day situations? Doesn't it stop being fantasy then?

Does it ever get old to watch the same old trope 'farm boy does chores before getting powers and spends x amount of pages failing at them before succeeding'? When done by a skilled author - no. We watched with just as much interested as Rand Al'Thor rolled casks of cider into the Inn at the beginning of Eye of the World because his chores - mundane as they are informed us about the world around him. I don't feel those scenes watered down the narrative but rather enriched his world and fleshed it out in a fuller sense. Kids don't have to be boring in the narrative and who says focusing on them would reduce the story to the mundane? If anything the wider perspective of a normal child in the midst of extraordinary events could prove enlightening. 

Paraphrasing BS on what he learned from Robert Jordan. "A cup of water is never just a cup of water in a book. 

That being said I hope we get to see a little of Gavinor in S4.

I don't necessarily need there to start being a ton of children in this series I was taking more kids in general fantasy. 

@maxal of course no one's lives are perfect when they decide to have kids but responsible people who are planning for children at least try to make sure they are stable. Shallan is....not

and i agree with you- it's because we so rarely see it that I would finding it interesting to read. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[Harbour he/him]

Ah, btw, maybe im too into symbolism and subtle hints but its interesting that Gavinor, the kid, was saved and brought to Kaladin by Kaladin's men and Shallan's men. Nice touch.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Harbour

[maxal she/her]

34 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Yes, this. Thank you.

I would even say making kids is really too easy.... In a world where fertility problems are being talked about so often, people forgot just how easy it can be to make kids.

35 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I would say I am against it while she is so mentally fragile. Even if choosing Adolin is the right path and everything is hunky-dory,  she still needs time. Once she's ready I'm not inherently opposed to the idea.

On the subject of it being a problem, the issue is that there are a few "tropes" in literature that female characters are often boxed into. They usually fall into the "maiden", "mother" or "crone" archetypes. I don;t know about you but I am not only one of those three - indeed I am more than just those three as is every other woman I know. They may identify with one or more of those archetypes but it doesn't define who they are in their entirety. How many archetypes are there for male characters? Its a hell of a lot more than three. 

As long as Shallan doesn't lose that sense of uniqueness that we get, motherhood likely won't be an issue. However, a mother of a new-born that doesn't put the needs of her child first is not exactly doing her job. I am not saying an occasional laugh couldn't be had if Shallan has to stop in the middle of a battle to breastfeed, but it would get old pretty quickly. On top of that, given the way we know Alethi structure is stratified, she would be expected within world to behave according to certain principles. 

As I said in a previous post, if people were to wait until they had resolved each and every one of their issues before making kids, then nobody would be having them. It is entirely possible and plausible, within the existing narrative, Shallan may want to have those kids with Adolin despite the fact she still needs to deal with her personas. I would ever argue it would be the best thing to happen to her character if she does make this decision.

Why?

Because our main protagonists just spent 1000 pages grazing at their own navels, this is especially true for Dalinar and Shallan, not so much for Kaladin, my critics for his story arc are somewhat different. We have just read both Dalinar and Shallan focusing deeply onto their personal problems and how those personal problems were affecting them, but we never once read them think or even consider how they might be affecting those around them. For instance, Kaladin speaks of the mixed signals he got from Shallan seeming as if she were interested while latching onto Adolin's arms: he spent hundred of pages not knowing what to do about it because the situation confused him. Not once did Shallan thought of what her behavior and her "problems" might impact her friends: she doesn't think Kaladin receiving mixed signals matters nor does she care Adolin catching on them matters as well because all which mattered to her was herself and how broken she was.

And don't get me started on Dalinar who spent 1000 pages remembering the fact he burned his wife alive while not spending one paragraph thinking of what it meant for his sons. Not once did he think of how unfair he had been to ignore Renarin during all of his childhood nor how Evi's death made him reject Adolin because he looked too much like her. Not once is he thinking he deprived his boys of their mother and if it is hard for him to bear the guilt, he should at least have conscience of the people who suffered for his actions. It was all about him, his pain, his person, his own navel. So selfish.

As such, giving Shallan a child might actually make her take actions and think for someone else but herself. It make give more depth to her life and stop having her think her own problems are the center of the universe because this is kind of what kids do to people: suddenly your own problems are not so important anymore and whatever they are, you kid of have to deal with them because a little one depends on you doing it. Of course, life is not always as peachy, but within the scope of a narrative having been guilty of focusing too much onto the internal problems of those Radiants, not enough on what they mean for everyone else, the idea of motherhood becomes incredibly interesting, IMHO.

And of course, I trust the narrative to go beyond Shallan thinking she needs to breastfeed during a battle... This is slightly reducing to mothers thinking all they do with babies is breastfed them. I have a ton of real life examples of young mothers who accomplished much and amazing things despite the fact they had to breastfed which, honestly, doesn't take that much time. 

47 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Also, while the subject doesn't come up in terms of making women have children in books, have a think about how unique Jasnah is - how many other adult female characters are completely defined in the fantasy genre by themselves? She is not the virginal or sexually provocative "maiden", she has a slight "mother" role with Shallan but despised teaching, and she has a slight "crone" role in that she is a provider of knowledge but she does so as a result of her own work. Many fantasy novels end up sidelining the female characters as a result of their female roles and I think the consensus is that we don't want that to happen to Shallan. If BS can pull off a happy mother scenario without Shallan losing her agency, fine. Perhaps I lack the imagination but I can't see how he'd manage it without her having to leave her child behind somewhere. Finally, as we are reading fantasy, most of us probably don't want to read more mundane topics when we could find out about the magic stuff. 

And you have just summarize why I find Jasnah so uninteresting... She is a character who evolves for herself, just herself without encumbering herself with other people nor bothering about what other people may think. Everything she does is for her own personal quest, her own navel and if she wants to protect her family, save the world and everything, she will resolutely do it while not bothering herself with menial things such as inter-personal relationships. 

I find the idea a female character has to be a cliche and to reduce the "valid options" for authors to be "Jasnah" because anyone else would fall into one cliche or the other: the same is true for male characters. I could also send the question back, how many fantasy characters have dared touch the subject of motherhood? As I said, I can't find one, not to say fantasy characters never have children, but it never occurs during the main narrative.

I personally think women can be all they want to do and yeah sometimes a mother is one of those things, but again, it rarely is the only thing. The idea Shallan would lose her agency or she would become the poster character for "female succumbing to peer pressure to have children" is a tad reducing. Mothers still have agency and to think they don't is not doing them a great disservice. Women have the right not to have children, but they also have the right to have them without being accused of falling to the stereotypes nor to be deemed uninteresting for it.

I definitely trust Brandon to pull it off.

55 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

We are - see Navani. We don't need another. Navani is no less a mother because Jasnah is an adult now. If Shallan goes down this route she needs to keep her agency. I am not sure how you make that happen in Alethi society. If BS pulls it off then fine but there could be very real conflict of a kind that will be unpleasant to read if Shallan has to choose between her child and Roshar as a whole. We've got enough broken children.

Navani is the older female character whom had kids: we never see her during her younger years, nor do we ever read what it meant for her to have them. I would ever argue her viewpoints were not even required in OB as I didn't get what they added to the narrative.

My whole point is Shallan will not lose her agency if she has children, women don't lose their agencies because they have children. People are free to make the choices they want and if some people want their life to focus 100% on their kids and to solely talk of nothing else, then it is their prerogative, but most people I know turned out being very different. For instance, how many mothers do you think are reading SA and engaging into the community? How many mothers do you think actually were beta readers? The answer: quite a few.

59 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Some normal/everyday situations are useful as a way of reflecting the real world issues. But they tend to be limited to minor points. How often do we see people bathing or toileting or even eating except as minor points that help with world building and are used in the background for other things of more import? A small child to look after is something that changes your life to an enormous extent. If Shallan has a kid then even by the time of the next book it will still be under 1 year old. Kids that age are hard work and need a huge amount of time put into them. How much can Shallan contribute in terms of time to the KR if she has a baby with her? Yes she will still be valuable for her skills as a LW, her insights for natural history, as well as all the other things she has contributed so far, but is it actually fair to ask that of her when she will have a responsibility to her kid? Do we want to water down the fantasy elements of the story to investigate the idea of a working mum in the KR? Is that why we are reading the SA in the first place?

This made me smile... There is a saying: small kids, small problems, big kids, big problems. Nothing is easier than a baby. It is when they are older it gets more complicated. Shallan will also have nannies and, just like Evi, she'd leave the little one to the nanny while she has other occupations. It really isn't such as narrative stop as many seems to think.

[Dreamstorm]

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Please can you point out why you think Shallan is sincere in her love of Adolin? I mean canon evidence plus your interpretation please. In my mind, Shallan is a notorious unreliable narrator as a result of her dissociation. She also made her decision very quickly and it seemed to come almost mid-thought. If you would be so kind, I'd love to see your answers on the following questions;  Why do you think so much time was given to the Shallan/Kaladin interactions? Why do you think so much was missed from the Adolin/Shallan interactions (there is a lot off screen)? Do you dismisss Veil's feelings for Kaladin and if so why? Given that Adolin is treating her Alts differently from one another, how would you reconcile this being a good thing for Shallan in the long run? 

......

I think the issue here is primarily that we literally don't see the reasons. They rarely get mentioned. There is too little canon evidence given when people make their assertions regarding Adolin. I don't much care whether you love Adolin or not but if you want to convince me why you think you are right I'm going to need more than just your feelings. Quote a passage, relate it to others in the books and explain your interpretation which is how you got to those feelings. Only then can there be any meaningful discussion.

I can't answer your questions in the first bit I quoted (but would also love to see someone take them on!  If Brandon is taking this route, I really would love to be behind it), but I can offer textual support for the Shallan/Adolin relationship.  In thinking about this, I also see an alternate plot line where this relationship could be incredibly satisfying.  For purposes of this, I am ignoring all of the Kaladin stuff and focusing just on Shallan and Adolin:

• They both state they are committed to making the relationship work.  Both want to be set up with someone, and wanting to try in a relationship is half the battle.
• The initial interactions show a good camaraderie and banter, plus the fact Adolin is thrown off balance in a very refreshing way (the poop in shardplate scene is one of my favorite humor scenes in all of the three books.)
• Shallan is interested in things in a way Adolin hasn't seen before in girls he courts.  I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I was imaging how much she would have liked the strap-cutting investigation.  As a mirror, we see her actively involved in the Sadeas investigation.
• Adolin listens to Shallan.  He expresses over-protective feelings for her post-chasms, and he seems to internalize this, such as letting her do her own thing in the Battle of Narak.  He generally lets her do her thing in OB, though he is obviously protective of her (not a bad thing!)
• They work well together in stressful situations.  Kholinar and Shadesmar are good examples of this.  They seem to be a good team.
• Adolin wants to spend time with Shallan and introduce her to new things (spicy food, sword fighting), and she is generally receptive to this.  This is a good dynamic in any relationship (involving your partner in your interests.)  Note I don't think Adolin can be held responsible for Shallan fracturing into Radiant at the sword fighting.
• I think personally think Shallan likes feeling smarter than people; Adolin allows her to do this (even though I think he is smarter than her in many ways, and more book smart than she gives him credit for, but she definitely feels like she has the intellectual upper hand.)
• We see in OB that they both express more inner secrets to each other.  Shallan tells Adolin about Kabsal; Adolin tells Shallan about Sadeas.  I think they open up to each other appropriately, esp. given that most people don't have Shallan's, ummm, past murder issues.

I can actually see a wonderful way this could have gone... Shallan could have taken Wit's advice in Kholinar, and that could have been her breaking point.  Instead of seeing increased switching between personalities and reliance on that fracturing, she worked to coalesce her personalities.  Adolin is Adolin and supportive as always.  In the Battle of TC, Shallan speaks a truth (maybe "I am one person and I accept my past actions"?, ok that's more an oath than a truth, but I'm sure Brandon could find something) and gets her shardplate (man, I would love for a woman to be first to shardplate!), being our first Radiant to level 5.  Afterwards, Adolin has his same crisis of conscious about not being a Radiant, Shallan gives a version of her "don't be silly, I love you" speech, and then they get married.  I'm actually getting rather attached to this storyline!  ETA:  I think Shallan having a child and exploring motherhood in this option is fantastic, too.

 

Of course, as anyone who has read this thread knows I feel... this isn't what happened.  Instead a still incredibly fractured Shallan is looking to Adolin to identify her real self, and while still in explicit internal conflict with what she wants, she grasps onto Adolin (and partly because she thinks she will lose him.)  So instead of making her decision from a healthy place (per my alternate universe), we get this split second decision which feels like Shallan grasping at straws.

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I honestly doubt Shallan's story arc will keep on being about her multiple personalities. OB offered resolution in the sense Shallan finally agreed she was she and Veil/Radiant merely were disguises she used at times. This thread might disagrees with me, but I consider it a close case: just as Brandon couldn't afford writing another book focusing on Kaladin being depressed, he can't afford writing another book focusing on Shallan being fractured, especially since the response to OB is not as positive as the response to his other books was. Of course, the personas are more than that, but Shallan now seems to make the distinction and if it is likely she will have to deal with them all her life, just as Kaladin will always deal with depression, I do not see them being a major story arc again just as Kaladin being depressed wasn't a major arc this time around.

I think the big consternation on this thread is that Brandon thinks he did what you see... "solve" Shallan's fractured personality issues by making Adolin the glue which holds her together.  If that's the case, it clearly was done in a way which left many people unconvinced (/extremely concerned with how that portrays a female character/character with mental health issues).  (This is not even taking into account how this would make all of the page time and foreshadowing spent on Shallan/Kaladin a waste, which would be not great writing in my opinion, especially considering the consistent complaint I see about OB is that scenes were left out.  Brandon should have cut all of the Shallan/Kaladin romantic stuff in WoR and OB and spent it elsewhere if it had no and very little payoff.  I would have much rather read about Shallan and Adolin's relationship!  Or Jasnah and Navani!  Or Dalinar and Szeth!  Or really anything else...)  I'd love to see you, or another person who finds that Shallan's fractured personality arc was satisfactorily concluded, answer @PhineasGage's questions above.  I can support the Shallan/Adolin relationship, and think it really could have been good, but I can't support how it was presented and what was presented around it (all of the Kaladin foreshadowing.) 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I can actually see a wonderful way this could have gone... Shallan could have taken Wit's advice in Kholinar, and that could have been her breaking point.  Instead of seeing increased switching between personalities and reliance on that fracturing, she worked to coalesce her personalities.  Adolin is Adolin and supportive as always.  In the Battle of TC, Shallan speaks a truth (maybe "I am one person and I accept my past actions"?, ok that's more an oath than a truth, but I'm sure Brandon could find something) and gets her shardplate (man, I would love for a woman to be first to shardplate!), being our first Radiant to level 5.  Afterwards, Adolin has his same crisis of conscious about not being a Radiant, Shallan gives a version of her "don't be silly, I love you" speech, and then they get married.  I'm actually getting rather attached to this storyline!  ETA:  I think Shallan having a child and exploring motherhood in this option is fantastic, too.

See. This is a version of it that I could have very, very much lived with. It looks and feels sincere. Instead, we get this mess we have now as you already have stated.

But then again, this wouldn't have needed the hinting at Kaladin either.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLNC

[mariapapadia she/her]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I would even say making kids is really too easy.... In a world where fertility problems are being talked about so often, people forgot just how easy it can be to make kids.

As I said in a previous post, if people were to wait until they had resolved each and every one of their issues before making kids, then nobody would be having them. It is entirely possible and plausible, within the existing narrative, Shallan may want to have those kids with Adolin despite the fact she still needs to deal with her personas. I would ever argue it would be the best thing to happen to her character if she does make this decision.

Why?

Because our main protagonists just spent 1000 pages grazing at their own navels, this is especially true for Dalinar and Shallan, not so much for Kaladin, my critics for his story arc are somewhat different. We have just read both Dalinar and Shallan focusing deeply onto their personal problems and how those personal problems were affecting them, but we never once read them think or even consider how they might be affecting those around them. For instance, Kaladin speaks of the mixed signals he got from Shallan seeming as if she were interested while latching onto Adolin's arms: he spent hundred of pages not knowing what to do about it because the situation confused him. Not once did Shallan thought of what her behavior and her "problems" might impact her friends: she doesn't think Kaladin receiving mixed signals matters nor does she care Adolin catching on them matters as well because all which mattered to her was herself and how broken she was.

And don't get me started on Dalinar who spent 1000 pages remembering the fact he burned his wife alive while not spending one paragraph thinking of what it meant for his sons. Not once did he think of how unfair he had been to ignore Renarin during all of his childhood nor how Evi's death made him reject Adolin because he looked too much like her. Not once is he thinking he deprived his boys of their mother and if it is hard for him to bear the guilt, he should at least have conscience of the people who suffered for his actions. It was all about him, his pain, his person, his own navel. So selfish.

As such, giving Shallan a child might actually make her take actions and think for someone else but herself. It make give more depth to her life and stop having her think her own problems are the center of the universe because this is kind of what kids do to people: suddenly your own problems are not so important anymore and whatever they are, you kid of have to deal with them because a little one depends on you doing it. Of course, life is not always as peachy, but within the scope of a narrative having been guilty of focusing too much onto the internal problems of those Radiants, not enough on what they mean for everyone else, the idea of motherhood becomes incredibly interesting, IMHO.

And of course, I trust the narrative to go beyond Shallan thinking she needs to breastfeed during a battle... This is slightly reducing to mothers thinking all they do with babies is breastfed them. I have a ton of real life examples of young mothers who accomplished much and amazing things despite the fact they had to breastfed which, honestly, doesn't take that much time. 

And you have just summarize why I find Jasnah so uninteresting... She is a character who evolves for herself, just herself without encumbering herself with other people nor bothering about what other people may think. Everything she does is for her own personal quest, her own navel and if she wants to protect her family, save the world and everything, she will resolutely do it while not bothering herself with menial things such as inter-personal relationships. 

I find the idea a female character has to be a cliche and to reduce the "valid options" for authors to be "Jasnah" because anyone else would fall into one cliche or the other: the same is true for male characters. I could also send the question back, how many fantasy characters have dared touch the subject of motherhood? As I said, I can't find one, not to say fantasy characters never have children, but it never occurs during the main narrative.

I personally think women can be all they want to do and yeah sometimes a mother is one of those things, but again, it rarely is the only thing. The idea Shallan would lose her agency or she would become the poster character for "female succumbing to peer pressure to have children" is a tad reducing. Mothers still have agency and to think they don't is not doing them a great disservice. Women have the right not to have children, but they also have the right to have them without being accused of falling to the stereotypes nor to be deemed uninteresting for it.

I definitely trust Brandon to pull it off.

Navani is the older female character whom had kids: we never see her during her younger years, nor do we ever read what it meant for her to have them. I would ever argue her viewpoints were not even required in OB as I didn't get what they added to the narrative.

My whole point is Shallan will not lose her agency if she has children, women don't lose their agencies because they have children. People are free to make the choices they want and if some people want their life to focus 100% on their kids and to solely talk of nothing else, then it is their prerogative, but most people I know turned out being very different. For instance, how many mothers do you think are reading SA and engaging into the community? How many mothers do you think actually were beta readers? The answer: quite a few.

This made me smile... There is a saying: small kids, small problems, big kids, big problems. Nothing is easier than a baby. It is when they are older it gets more complicated. Shallan will also have nannies and, just like Evi, she'd leave the little one to the nanny while she has other occupations. It really isn't such as narrative stop as many seems to think.

 I agree with you that if we expect to have kids, get married or other os those life changing things, until we are ready on all plans for them, no one would ever progress. That being said, like so many people have already said, Shallan is still not stable enought and making a child with the hope that will make her less self absorbeb or less selfish I think is wrong. There is a reason everyone thinks that is not healthy to have a kid while a relationship is not stable. The same reasoning can work here as well. There is no indication that a child would make her better and it would also be fundamentaly wrong to imply that. If she were to have a child now, that would either give her some more time to run from some problems she hasn't come to term with or would make her even more unstable. What is she can't love the child? What if one of her personas hates the idea of being a mother and then it become a never ending stuggle between different parts of herself? Of course, this is only speculation and things could go great and a child could make her better, but that is a huge gamble to take, especially when it comes to playinf with another life. We have seen in Dalinar, that yes, having a child had a great impact on him, but it still didn't make him a better person and once hell broke loose, he was a poorly father. I would at least like her to be able to be less self absorbed and give something to someone else, by being in a relationship with Adolin. But I doubt that will happen anytime soon. She doesn't even know herself well enough so she can stand on her feet and don't loose her agency while having a kid. Of course having a kid will change you and shift your whole world no matter what, but in order to don't loose yourself in that process you should at least have a basic understanding and grasp or who you are as a person and what your values are. Shallan has been sheltered for most of her life, she;s been in the real world for only a couple of months, it's true she's been trough a lot in those months, but in a way I feel like she is still learning and her views are challenged daily. I don't think she is mature enough to have someone else's life in her hands right now. That being said, I can agree that it would be interesting to have her go through this whole experience in some future books, maybe after she went through some growth as a person. 

In regards to Dalinar, I think you have a lot of aversion towards him. I feel like you only look at his bad traits, instead of balancing things out. He is even aware of how undeserving he is of his wife and that he wasn't such a great father. Yes, as a father he did a lousy job, he was selfish and he still is in some regards, but at the same time his problems with alchoolism are relatively recent, the world is ending and he just remembered the monster and lousy father he was. His sons didn't even know yet, what he did. He's just finding out. It's not ridiculos to think that he was overwhelmed by this and his first thougts weren't straight to his kids, who on the surface appear to manage everything at the moment. And I think he's even trying to better himself as a father, we see that scene in OB when he comes to one of the scholar's meetings only to support Renarin and for him not to feel that uncomfortable. It's baby steps. Now that he knows what he did, he will bear the responsability of telling the truth and work even harder on the relationship with Adolin and Renarin. But considering the world is ending and he is an important pawn in everything that's happening and bears the responsability of saving human kind, I think the work on his fatherhood is not the most pressing of problems, even though is important. He is a flawed human and he can't do everything perfect. He did and will make more mistakes down the road. 

EDIT: The only mother perspective in fantasy, beside Navani, that comes to my mind is Catelyn Stark in aSoIaF. It's been a couple of years since I read the books and some things are fuzzy in my mind, but I think she was really into protecting her kids and talking about them. I remember being annoyed by her character, but it wasn't because of that. I just didn't like her for some random reason I don't remember now. 

 

On another note.. The topic has changes since yesterday, but I wanted to say something. I think it was one of your comments, @FuzzyWordsmith, on one of the previous pages, I can't find it right now, where you said something along the lines of Brandon failing as an author if this is the end/conclusion of Shallan's arc. Sorry if I'm remembering things wrong. I think that is unfair and it disregards all the wonderful job and writer and human Brandon is . I've also been very vocal about how poorly I think this arc has been handled and if this is the end of it, I am dissapointed, but you can't say that when Sanderson did and accomplished so much more than this. These books are so complex and have so many layers, that sometimes things have to be prioritized. Nobody is perfect and it's a shame everything can't have the turnout we want or expect, but not being able to do a character justice, is not the worst thing possible the grand scheme of things. I know it sends a wrong message, but Brandon isn't god. And while he bears some responsability, as we all do, to put a positive message in the world and be good members in our society, he never signed up for the job of giving life lessons through his books. I think he even says it at one point in a Q&A, that he doesn't want to preach or for people look at his books like lessons to live by. He writes the books as he sees fit and I think it;s impossible for him to bear the responsability of how people will interpret them. That would hurt his creative process, always being aware of how a certain thing could hurt or trigger anyone. Overall I think he expresses a great message and values through his work and yes, sometimes he might not be ideal or perfect. Of course, this is just my opinion, but Brandon's books gave me so much more, that even though I critizice him and I am upset about some things, I can't give up on him as an author only because of this. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by mariapapadia