[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[straits]

50 minutes ago, SLNC said:

storm. i really hope this is not the case. On reddit someone posted how touched they were by Shallan's arc in Oathbringer, because how they could relate to it by suffering from a similar condition. This would send such a bad picture to those people... Like not finding professional help and showing that a romantic relationship with a nice helpful guy or girl can solve the problem? It is great when an author touches real world issues and reflects them in their characters, but do your research right, which I think Brandon actually does a good job of, and never send false messages in regards to the solution of the problem.

I don't think Shallan's mental state is anywhere near resolution. She's proceeded to feed at least one of her multiple personalities even into the marriage ceremony (IIRC there was a timeleap of a few months and she's still referring to Veil as a separate entity, in front of Adolin). This isn't a literary slip-up by Sanderson, it's suggestion of future conflict.

45 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

...

(2) Literary plotting: I’m not worked up over this one, but unlike in Mistborn where our “bad guy” was a side character who existed for one book, we are talking about uselessly involving our main character. That seems like really poor writing and character development for our main character. (Not to mention a waste of page time.) I want to think there is some bigger payoff for Kaladin around the arc (whether romantic with Shallan or not) or else it is a big writing misstep. Also, Mistborn bad guy was, well, actually bad. Not so in our case, and weird to reduce our main character to that role in the triangle. 

(2) I will absolutely be able to overlook. (1) I’m really not sure.

I don't think it would be a writing misstep if there is no consequent payoff for Kaladin sometime in the future. Plenty of individuals in our world have not been "awarded" in such a way despite their good achievements/personality. And Kaladin's growth (and its process) is a reward in itself. Having said that, I'm not a fan of enforcing the Chekhov's Gun concept in every story. Not everything has to be satisfactorily "concluded"; life does not work that way.

As for a main character being reduced to the "bad guy" role in the triangle - this is ostensibly not something Sanderson does in his description through all three PoVs. This is what Shallan does as a mental leap to make the decision easier.

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, Starla said:

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

So... How I personally rationalize the fact that "Sanderson placed this love triangle in the SA" would be either and/or one of these cases:

(a) he did this to boost sales without regarding proper character development. 

(b) It happened unintentionally on his part, as the character development grew astray from the chasm scene onward. Then he tried to tie it up with a marriage conclusion in OB.

(c) he places this intentionally as a character development point for Shallan only and the marriage is a conclusion in stability (or instability) for her.

(d) it happened intentionally as a story development point where we will see characters evolving throughout the rest books and possibly coming back to this at some point.

I mean't to adress this too - Thanks @insert_anagram_here for putting this together. Also @Starla I must admit that whilst I am probably not convinced (c) is the most likely outcome I am fully aware that my personal preference is getting in my way of being rational about it.

I also was not mad about the Mistborn love story, and I found Elend a bit meh initially, but that plot didn't get anywhere near the amount of page time this one has. I didn't care much about who she chose, I was just invested in her being awesome and saving the world etc.

1 hour ago, Starla said:

Like several others have pointed out, my issues here are related to Shallan’s character development rather than shipping. I’m not on team Shadolin or Shalladin, but rather on Team “Shallan being awesome."  If there were a Shallan character thread, I would post my thoughts there.

I would like to think I'm on the SS Shalladin ship because I'm on team "Shallan being awesome" - or in my mind herself. I like Shallan, she has her bad moments but that makes more likeable, not less. We are our flaws as much as our strengths. I think my lack of love for Adolin partly stems because his flaws are either less profound, or he hides them from us when we get his PoV. He just isn't flawed enough. As an exceedingly flawed individual myself, I find him difficult to relate to.

Oh, also don't leave us if you decide to start a Shallan appreciation thread

I also second your request of @Stormlightning

48 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, as I have pointed out earlier in the thread, this is not how OSDD gets better, and we're fairly certain that's what Shallan has. If Sanderson has her get better in this way, that means he just didn't bother doing research, and that he let's his biases bleed too much into things. I still don't know how to feel about it. If this is the "happy ending" then I feel Sanderson has failed as an author. For anyone else, that would cause me to drop the author.

Yes I see what you mean. I have run out of upvotes. Again.... 

40 minutes ago, SLNC said:

On reddit someone posted how touched they were by Shallan's arc in Oathbringer, because how they could relate to it by suffering from a similar condition.

I can't see how this works. If Shallan is better then her recovery is an overly romantic fiction that simply makes no sense. If it is, then I will have serious problems going forward. I can't even watch medical dramas anymore because they are too unrealistic. Why take my fantasy books away from me too 

35 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

(1) Morally/emotionally: Our lead female character, who has been built up as being on a journey of independence and self-sufficiency becoming a women who needs a man to discover her real self and prop her up. Beyond being unsatisfying, it actually makes me a little ill. In Mistborn, Vin didn’t lose herself and her identity in her marriage, so while I don’t think that romance was particularly well-written, it was not completely anti-feminist. When it comes to the fans who are totally OK with this being Shallan’s romantic conclusion, what is that saying - women should look for a man to prop them up rather than solving their problems on their own? Men should be that role for women (and it goes hand in hand with causally subjugating women because they are too “weak” to stand on their own)? The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. I knew fantasy literature had a sexism problem, and I guess this is that problem smacking me in the head.

But we all know women are clearly useless without their big strong men to make everything better. I mean, come on they have like, periods and uteruses and hormones. They can't possibly be expected to cope on their own....... /s

35 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

(2) Literary plotting: I’m not worked up over this one, but unlike in Mistborn where our “bad guy” was a side character who existed for one book, we are talking about uselessly involving our main character. That seems like really poor writing and character development for our main character. (Not to mention a waste of page time.) I want to think there is some bigger payoff for Kaladin around the arc (whether romantic with Shallan or not) or else it is a big writing misstep. Also, Mistborn bad guy was, well, actually bad. Not so in our case, and weird to reduce our main character to that role in the triangle

I think I am actually  more worked up over this one. Not that i think it is ok to pidgeonhole women, but I know Sanderson has written strong women in the past and will likely do so in the future. I'll be annoyed if Shallan doesn't prove to be one of them, but I'll live. The literary stuff though, that bugs me. It means he has been stringing me along and I hate being lied to. It will mean I can't analyse his word choices or his moments of supposed foreshaowing because I won't be able to trust him anymore. That takes all the enjoyment out of the book for me. I am not good at just reading, I analyse as I go, I make notes on my book, I reference previous books. I'm really weird. I can cope with plots going in unexpected directions and then finding out that the foreshadowing was there all along, I am happy to have characters do unexpected things but I really hate the idea that an author would go out of their way to deliberately mislead me. If he didn't want the Shalladin thing to be a, well, thing. Then he needed to nip it in the bud earlier in OB.

 

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Ok so I'm going to have to play devils advocate on this despite agreeing  whole heartedly with the sentiment that Shallan REALLY doesn't need to be a mom right now. Motherhood is not inevitable for all women. I know several who are perfectly content and complete without ever having kids.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am currently studying Medicine, whilst in my mid thirties, and I am in the Middle East. I am very sick of being told my tutors that I don't really want to be a [insert medical specialty here] - I should be a GP so I can look after my future babies....... It makes me mad as hell. I am not anti the idea of children, but I'm not crazy about it either. If a womans wants kids then more power to her. As Jasnah would say, her strength should lie in her power to choose. If I end up as a GP it should be because that is what I want, not because I am a walking uterus.

 

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

i ended up getting married super young at 19 and my Husband and I were very content just the 2 of us for several years. Around 23 my feelings about wanting a family changed. 3 kids later and I can say motherhood is a profound shift in my entire identity. The act of pregnancy and birth itself was in itself an achievement for me. It was the first time I really ever felt empowered as a woman for something really really hard that i did on my own (with my husbands excellent support of course) I'm still me but my interests have now expanded exponentially.

Ok, so I see your point, and I was maybe too harsh. I was thinking about the 15 year old I helped deliver of a baby a few months ago. She didn't choose to get pregnant. It was a complete mistake. She was still going out and drinking/smoking right up to the end doing god knows what harm to the foetus. I don't blame a teenager for being selfish, but then you shouldn't get pregnant if you cant identify with the idea of putting someone else first.

Your achievement was that you chose. I can get behind that as an achievement because it is empowering in a society where many people push you into the idea of wanting kids. It is ok to want kids, it is great if they make you a better person, it is fantastic if you feel that they broaden your scope and understanding as a person. But none of things are a good reason to want them. It should happen because you are ready and you make the choice.

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

And many parents do feel their kids are their achievements because we see this crazy tiny new entity that we made and now are responsible for molding into a person worthy of carrying on the human race. And that starts as babies. Much like we analyze and break down characters in these forums and get excited at character growth and development, watching your babies growth and change (at a really incredible rate) and see how differently they react to the same things as markers of their personalities is fascinating. And we get to have a direct hand in it. And when we see them make progress and have success DESPITE our own failings as a parent ...it's hard not to be super proud of that. 

I think this is kind of what I meant, I can see raising a child is amazing and that it is an achievement because it is storming hard. I was more feeling that the physical act of getting one is less so because literally anyone can manage it. I am not a parent myself (obviously) though I am prepared to concede that I may change my mind about how I feel on this should I have children in the future. 

27 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I was hoping for Shallan to surpass Vin but this answer right here makes me heartbreaking doubt that is the case.

Don't panic yet - Vin's arc is done, Shallan's isn't yet. I know he has a plan, but it is still subject to change.

27 minutes ago, Starla said:

Going into Oathbringer I certainly didn't foresee Dalinar opening a perpendicularity or Moash killing a herald or Syl having a bounty on her head. I do trust Brandon as a writer, so I'll try to keep an open mind, but I'm not setting my expectations too high for Shallan to find herself outside of her relationship. I think the implication here is that Love Conquers All (which oddly enough, I normality like as a trope, so long as it doesn't interfere with the individual character growth. I am a romantic at heart, but not at the expense of inner strength.)

Yes I agree. I guess I would be more than happy with the idea of this if it was written in a ChickLit book but that isn't why I read Fantasy. It is fine if it works within the genre, but it needs to be believable because so much of the rest of the story is inherently unbelievable.

21 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

And yet in this very same interview we get this quote from Brandon below about avoiding making female characters people to be saved or lusted after. (This quote is part of a larger discourse on the issue.) And yet... at the end of OB, Shallan has been saved by a man and a huge part of their connection is because they lust after one another... it’s just sad on so many levels. 

To be fair, until SA4 is out we can't be sure he means for it to be taken this way. We may find WoBs come out if he thinks people are taking it in a potentially dangerous way. He is not trying to cause harm, he wants to tell stories.

19 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Honestly? She is so entangled in her lies, that she has to really crash and acknowledge her problem before she can work on solving it again. I think, bringing her bond with Pattern to the edge of breaking would do the trick. Then maybe work with Wit.

I don't think it needs to be quite so dramatic - I can see why you say that though. In addiction, hitting "rock bottom" is often the way people finally get the clarity they need to start the healing process. I am not sure that is strictly necessary with OSDD. Though I would definitely defer to @FuzzyWordsmith's experience in that. I just think it could be argued that someone like Shallan may be capable of getting out of it without another crash. It probably does need to be a bad moment though.

22 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This answer actually gave me hope, because it shows that he is aware that developing female characters is a challenge for him. He is aware of the bias he can fall into and he is actively tackling that part of his writing. Vin is exactly a proof of that.

I also find it funny that female writers tend to make their male characters "perfect". 

*cough cough* Adolin anyone??

18 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

S4 comes around and things are magically better because of the resolution in OB it will be completely unsatisfying to me. I think this a a large part of why this thread even exists. Promises were made to the reader about certain issues being addressed (which way is irrelevant ) and then they weren't....basically like it almost never even happened. It's making me twitchy 

This. Waiting for more upvotes then you are getting one.

@Prelude welcome welcome to the (?sinking) SS Shalladin.  You are most welcome. Have a cookie. 

You have found yourself a group of like minded people. I think that pretty much everyone here is feeling very similarly to you and this is our way of coping with it. I think it is interesting that you mentioned that the only time you recognised Shallan was on the boat - am I right in thinking you mean when she got excited about the Mandras and their relationship to luckspren?

She was talking to Kaladin at the time........

[Darvys]

I can't believe this thread is still going strong, i guess with new people completing the book at different times we'll be discussing this for a few weeks more.

I'm just jumping in again because i'm annoyed at people blaming Brandon for what some readers took away from the book, people will see what they want to see, there are enough signs for anyone paying attention and i won't hold Brandon responsible for someone who'll pick wrong life advice by misunderstanding the story. If you look to fiction to validate your life choices, well let's just say that what Brandon writes is the least of your troubles.

That aside, it's painfull to see the lack of faith in Brandon here, it didn't take any amount of genius to see that there was something deeply wrong with Shallan's behavior (particularly) in the last few povs, it's not a stretch to assume that among all the people who read previous versions of the book, there would be at least one willing to voice these same complaints we've ben rehashing here. So if Brandon decided to go with it as is anyway, maybe that's because he's not quite done and we only saw one stage of a longer than expected arc.

Sure, there were some akward moments, and things we would have wanted to see didn't happen, so what ? We're dealing with awkward characters each trying to deal with a mess of problems and some are failing spectacularly. 

Even if i'm wrong and Brandon did take the cringeworthy path despite all the awesomeness we got from him, maybe the least we can do is wait to have confirmation before we start crying and tearing our clothes and hair in despair ? 

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Darvys said:

Even if i'm wrong and Brandon did take the cringeworthy path despite all the awesomeness we got from him, maybe the least we can do is wait to have confirmation before we start crying and tearing our clothes and hair in despair ? 

I do agree, but I wouldn't take it too much to heart - some of the rage/despair is part of the grieving process. Most people will likely end up agreeing with you, it just sometimes takes a while to get there

On top of that, hearing about people celebrating the sinking of the Shalladin is annoying, so people are reacting to that in a visceral/defensive manner. It will get better once the community stabilises. In a few weeks we'll all be much more rational. In the meantime, it is still raw and emotional, and that is actually a (backhanded) compliment to Sanderson's writing because we all were so invested and believe that he is capable of being one of the truly great writers that will stand the test of time. As Wit said, all art is hated.

[Guest]

@Darvys

I love Brandon's books as the next one here and, despite this whole ordeal with Shallan and her supposed solution to the problem, Oathbringer was a very enjoyable read, but that doesn't mean he should be impervious to criticism.

I'm not blaming Brandon for any life decisions anyone does, but if I were an author and would decide to incorporate dissociative disorders or any other mental illnesses into a character in my book... I wouldn't want to feel responsible for any bad choices someone makes, because he has read my book. I think, if you release something to the public that touches real problems, that include severe medical conditions that can ruin the lives of someone, who don't take action against them, you have a certain responsibility to educate and not spread false messages. If you're not ready to accomodate your story to do that, then don't address them, but I might be alone with that line of thinking.

That Shallan made a bad choice might be obvious to you and me, but not for someone who suffers from the same condition and maybe looks for confirmation, that he is doing the right thing by thinking he can get through it by leaning on his SO.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

@Darvys

I love Brandon's books as the next one here and, despite this whole ordeal with Shallan and her supposed solution to the problem, Oathbringer was a very enjoyable read, but that doesn't mean he should be impervious to criticism.

I'm not blaming Brandon for any life decisions anyone does, but if I were an author and would decide to incorporate dissociative disorders or any other mental illnesses into a character in my book... I wouldn't want to feel responsible for any bad choices someone makes, because he has read my book. I think, if you release something to the public that touches real problems, that include severe medical conditions that can ruin the lives of someone, who don't take action against them, you have a certain responsibility to educate and not spread false messages. If you're not ready to accomodate your story to do that, then don't address them, but I might be alone with that line of thinking.

This is probably a valid point for depression-related issues specifically, and one encounter with Wit does not constitute proper professional help in Shallan's case.

But with regards to Dissociative Identity Disorder (her multiple personalities), this particular illness has been poorly defined, characterized and tackled in the real world. For most intents and purposes, Shallan's multiple personality flaws are a fictional mental disorder in the way that it is expressed. Not only is it hallucinogenic, she can also change her own appearance and literally summon images of her characters (as demonstrable by other characters' witnessing) using Stormlight. This is hard to meaningfully and genuinely link to any existing mental illness in real life. Consequently, I don't think Sanderson has the responsibility to tackle this from a medical, psychiatric perspective.

Edited November 25, 2017 by straits
punctuation

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, straits said:

But with regards to Dissociative Identity Disorder (her multiple personalities), this particular illness has been poorly defined, characterized and tackled in the real world. For most intents and purposes, Shallan's multiple personality flaws are a fictional mental disorder in the way that it is expressed. Not only is it hallucinogenic, she can also change her own appearance and literally summon images of her characters (as demonstrable by other characters' witnessing) using Stormlight. This is hard to meaningfully and genuinely link to any existing mental illness in real life. Consequently, I don't think Sanderson has the responsibility to tackle this from a medical, psychiatric perspective.

Shallan's disorder can be compared to a real-life disorder. It is not DID, you're right, but these exist in real-life too and are called OSDD (Other Specified Dissociative Disorders; http://traumadissociation.com/osdd). What is important is that someone might read Shallan in Oathbringer might get really invested in her and identify with her and make some bad decisions based on that. I wouldn't want to feel responsible for that, but Brandon might see that differently.

And yes, I will call out every author of whom I think, that he handles it badly and sends false messages, because a huge problem with the acknowledge ment of mental issues in society is still lack of education regarding them and shame to go to get help. Many already confide in their SO, but are still afraid of their public image and don't go to a therapist. The marriage is presented as the supposed solution at the end of OB, which confirms this line of thought.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[Darvys]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

I think, if you release something to the public that touches real problems, that include severe medical conditions that can ruin the lives of someone, who don't take action against them, you have a certain responsibility to educate and not spread false messages.

All we saw in OB was Shallan making a decision, was it the right one ? We think not, other people think it solved all her problems. Brandon didn't even begin spreading a message, false or otherwise, but we're all jumping to conclusions, you can't hold him responsible for our own precipitation. Beyond that, i'm all for educating the masses, but if it requires authors to limit themselves and reframe their work, then we have a problem. 

Many characters in different stories make bad choices that end up working out, should we discourage authors from writing such stories because they give the wrong idea ? I think not, we have to assume that most readers are wise enough to figure it out, for the rest all you can do is hope they're surrounded by people who'll point them the right direction.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

Here's something that I use to cheer my self up, and I hope it helps you guys as well.

We're posting on the Spoiler board for the latest book release, in the forum of the official fansite. Not only that, but we are currently very big and very noisy. We, certainly, cannot be ignored and I hope we cannot be dismissed, as no matter where we fall with our preferences, and actually the fact that they're so varied is a good thing, all this analysis cannot be dismissed as to having no merit. It's simply impossible, unless it's purposefully done in which case we can't do anything. Our concerns and doubts are well supported by arguments that I think no amount of confirmation bias, on our part, could manifest. We're going strong for 10 days now and instead of this thread getting buried more and more people are joining us. I have to hope that we're heard. I have to hope that feedback is received on a odjective basis.

I know this all may sound  as hammy, hopeful platitudes but it helps me. I hope it does the trick for you as well.

Edited November 25, 2017 by DimChatz

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Darvys said:

Many characters in different stories make bad choices that end up working out, should we discourage authors from writing such stories because they give the wrong idea ? I think not, we have to assume that most readers are wise enough to figure it out, for the rest all you can do is hope they're surrounded by people who'll point them the right direction.

No, but give the right closure at end of a book and don't leave it hanging in the air for 3 years, because even if it resolved in a realistic manner in a later book, over those 3 years many will have read the 'supposed solution' and yes it is presented as that, because Shallan feels like it is so. Like I said, confirmation bias is a thing and people, who suffer from similar issues are often subject to this bias.

[Greywatch she/her]

So the argument has shifted from "we DO like Adolin" to "it's okay if we hate on him a bit because he's fictional". Things are getting heated, and the goalposts for answering posts are shifting. 

Last time I checked, the opening post was asking about opinions and didn't seem to about specifically being here for Shalladin shippers to express their feelings, but most everyone who doesn't ship it has certainly fled/decided not to respond. You know, that's okay, and it can just be what it's shifted into, but it doesn't have to wait to be civil. People should be civil all the time, not after a vague undetermined amount of time for "emotions to cool". There isn't an excuse. 

Personally, my point of view is in line with a lot of some of the very good arguments in here, but I've chosen to defend a fictional character, Adolin, because I identify with him, and I think some of the arguments here do him wrong. 

And here's another thing. I've been defending a fictional character, and then been told not to take it so seriously, (and I believe in this I was also called a snowflake?) and it's okay to be rude about a fictional character because... you also just care about your preferred fictional relationship so much. This is a double standard, and I understand that it feels correct to say this because emotions are in the mix, but I think at this point maybe it needs to be said: It's not bad when I do it but then a-okay when you do it. At this point we are all perceiving hostility when perhaps there wasn't any and then taking it as justification to say some things in this thread that are... ill-conceived.

[PhineasGage]

15 minutes ago, straits said:

But with regards to Dissociative Identity Disorder (her multiple personalities), this particular illness has been poorly defined, characterized and tackled in the real world. For most intents and purposes

Sorry this is just not true. The DSM has a clear definition and psychiatrists and psychologists have clear recommendations made to them about management for people with DID and related disorders. It hasn't become a mainstream topic because mental health is poorly addressed by society as a whole. 

 

15 minutes ago, straits said:

Not only is it hallucinogenic, she can also change her own appearance and literally summon images of her characters (as demonstrable by other characters' witnessing) using Stormlight. This is hard to meaningfully and genuinely link to any existing mental illness in real life. Consequently, I don't think Sanderson has the responsibility to tackle this from a medical, psychiatric perspective.

Again, not true. She doesn't hallucinate. Hallucinations are defined as situations where you experience a phenomenon (sight/sound/taste/touch) in the absence of an actual stimulus that provokes that sensation. Shallan's illusions are real because others can see and hear them. It is magic, sure, but her use of magic is no more madness than us displaying pictures via projector.

I do agree that her illusions have made her more able to identify as different people, but that doesn't mean she has divided herself significantly differently to how a RL person would.

6 minutes ago, Darvys said:

All we saw in OB was Shallan making a decision, was it the right one ? We think not, other people think it solved all her problems. Brandon didn't even begin spreading a message, false or otherwise, but we're all jumping to conclusions, you can't hold him responsible for our own precipitation. Beyond that, i'm all for educating the masses, but if it requires authors to limit themselves and reframe their work, then we have a problem. 

I have sympathy with both sides of this argument. I do agree that authors shouldn't be limited as to how they write, but at the same time, a responsible person doesn't shout fire in a crowded theatre unless there is one.

You are completely right that we are responsible for our own interpretations, but Brandon has some  responsibility there to because he wrote the book in such a way as to lead us to them. When addressing complex issues such as mental healh disorder - particularly ones which little or no coverage, it is really imprtant to consider all the possible outcomes of your writing.

This means that he could very easily come out and say something like "This is not a real disease, Shallan is a fictional character and regardless of what happens to her I do not want people to assume she is written to be a role model or that her decisions are the right ones". That doesn't mess up the book, or imply that her outcome is wrong. It highlights the fact that he is not truly using a real world analogue without giving away whether her solution is right for her or not. It kills the discussion here but also reduces the risk of someone using Shallan as a guide for a healthy solution to a very real problem.

@DimChatz I am nominating you for official thread cheerleader. I hope you have your own pompoms?

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Like I said, confirmation bias is a thing and people, who suffer from similar issues are often subject to this bias.

People are vulnerable to this. It is a great tool in the kit for staying alive when you are a hunter gather living on the plains of Africa in the Stone Age. Its not so good when you have a problem and are looking for ways to justify your planned behaviour.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, PhineasGage said:

People are vulnerable to this. It is a great tool in the kit for staying alive when you are a hunter gather living on the plains of Africa in the Stone Age. Its not so good when you have a problem and are looking for ways to justify your planned behaviour.

What I meant is that people who suffer from the same issues are even more vulnerable to that, but you're right of course. Confirmation bias is an universal issue in people.

[straits]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Shallan's disorder can be compared to a real-life disorder. It is not DID, you're right, but these exist in real-life too and are called OSDD (Other Specified Dissociative Disorders; http://traumadissociation.com/osdd). What is important is that someone might read Shallan in Oathbringer might get really invested in her and identify with her and make some bad decisions based on that. I wouldn't want to feel responsible for that, but Brandon might see that differently.

And yes, I will call out every author of whom I think, that he handles it badly and sends false messages, because a huge problem with the acknowledge ment of mental issues in society is still lack of education regarding them and shame to go to get help. Many already confide in their SO, but are still afraid of their public image and don't go to a therapist. The marriage is presented as the supposed solution at the end of OB, which confirms this line of thought.

Good link, I didn't know about that variant of dissociative disorder. There might be a real danger if a reader has been brought up in a cult environment, proceeds to suffer from OSDD, and then concludes their escapism is good from reading a book. But I strongly disagree with policing the author just because "someone" might do "something" as a result of reading a book. 

However, there is nothing wrong with writing an essay, an article, or similar, about the book if you feel strongly about it, or encouraging boycotting in cases where you really feel it's harmful literature.

I think the idea that Shallan's issues are "resolved" is a misinterpretation. She still thinks of Veil as a real personality, and Adolin feeds that. This isn't portrayed as a solution; it's clearly exacerbation of the problem despite the participants' feeling good about it. I think a deeper interpretation of the events Sanderson writes are the reader's burden to understand, and not the writer's burden to simplify.

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by straits
removed a word

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, straits said:

However, I think the idea that Shallan's issues are "resolved" is a misinterpretation. She still thinks of Veil as a real personality, and Adolin feeds that. This isn't portrayed as a solution; it's clearly exacerbation of the problem despite the participants' feeling good about it. I think a deeper interpretation of the events Sanderson writes are the reader's burden to understand, and not the writer's burden to simplify.

 

Shallan thinks she has solved it. She thinks she has it under control. This just tells someone who dissociates himself, that that is a practical solution... It isn't!

Sorry, I'm getting worked up. I think, I'll go on a run around the block.

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

Just now, SLNC said:

Shallan thinks she has solved it. She thinks she has it under control. This just tells someone who dissociates himself, that that is a practical solution... It isn't!

So? This is a real description of a possible outcome for someone who has this illness. The author doesn't have the responsibility to guide the character from the mental illness towards successful treatment. It could become worse - this could be grounds for Shallan sliding into further mental issues later on in the sequels.

Your problem seems to be with the fact that someone reading this might conclude that she "solved" her issues because she's happy. This interpretation of events from the side of the reader is wrong, and the author is not obliged to spoon-feed the reader.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

16 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am currently studying Medicine, whilst in my mid thirties, and I am in the Middle East. I am very sick of being told my tutors that I don't really want to be a [insert medical specialty here] - I should be a GP so I can look after my future babies....... It makes me mad as hell. I am not anti the idea of children, but I'm not crazy about it either. If a womans wants kids then more power to her. As Jasnah would say, her strength should lie in her power to choose. If I end up as a GP it should be because that is what I want, not because I am a walking uterus.

 

Ok, so I see your point, and I was maybe too harsh. I was thinking about the 15 year old I helped deliver of a baby a few months ago. She didn't choose to get pregnant. It was a complete mistake. She was still going out and drinking/smoking right up to the end doing god knows what harm to the foetus. I don't blame a teenager for being selfish, but then you shouldn't get pregnant if you cant identify with the idea of putting someone else first.

Your achievement was that you chose. I can get behind that as an achievement because it is empowering in a society where many people push you into the idea of wanting kids. It is ok to want kids, it is great if they make you a better person, it is fantastic if you feel that they broaden your scope and understanding as a person. But none of things are a good reason to want them. It should happen because you are ready and you make the choice.

I think this is kind of what I meant, I can see raising a child is amazing and that it is an achievement because it is storming hard. I was more feeling that the physical act of getting one is less so because literally anyone can manage it. I am not a parent myself (obviously) though I am prepared to concede that I may change my mind about how I feel on this should I have children in the future. 

 

I don't think it needs to be quite so dramatic - I can see why you say that though. In addiction, hitting "rock bottom" is often the way people finally get the clarity they need to start the healing process. I am not sure that is strictly necessary with OSDD. Though I would definitely defer to @FuzzyWordsmith's experience in that. I just think it could be argued that someone like Shallan may be capable of getting out of it without another crash. It probably does need to be a bad moment though.

@PhineasGage So first of all - major props to you for being able to sort through and multi quote and respond to all these posts so quickly. Girl you are a machine and I salute you! 

I see what you mean and yes that would drive me crazy. My husband comments on my apparently increasingly sensitivity issues regarding women ( to be fair to him never in a way that is hurtful) so I can see where the sentiment that Shallan's natural progression from marriage is to start popping out kids would be irritating because that sentiment bugs me too. We are more than walking uteruses! Lol 

i just couldn't resist clarifying where that mentality may come from a bit. 

Commenting on your observation about choice and Jasnah's words: I wish I could find the actual quote of that because this was an incredibly moving and inspiring piece of writing. It really resonates with me and touched me as a person. And it demonstrates a depth of understanding a strong woman that that contrast so crazily with the odd turn at the end of OB that makes me think BS HAS to know what he he's doing right??!! Makes makes the disparity even more jarring! 

My comment on raising kids was mainly directly at the observation that kids aren't interesting until they are old enough to be interesting. I just haven't found that to be true and was comparing how we watch their changes and progression with the same excitement we show these imaginary people we are so hyped up about. 

 

i do think shallan is going to have to have some sort of 'rock bottom' moment because it wouldnt make sense if she just up and got better after acquiring the 'love of a good strong man' 

i think Pattern is gonna be our canary on this subject and watching him will be a good indication of how close we get to hitting that bottom. 

[straits]

9 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Sorry this is just not true. The DSM has a clear definition and psychiatrists and psychologists have clear recommendations made to them about management for people with DID and related disorders. It hasn't become a mainstream topic because mental health is poorly addressed by society as a whole. 

 

Again, not true. She doesn't hallucinate. Hallucinations are defined as situations where you experience a phenomenon (sight/sound/taste/touch) in the absence of an actual stimulus that provokes that sensation. Shallan's illusions are real because others can see and hear them. It is magic, sure, but her use of magic is no more madness than us displaying pictures via projector.

I do agree that her illusions have made her more able to identify as different people, but that doesn't mean she has divided herself significantly differently to how a RL person would.

...

I was paraphrasing what I read off the wiki references. They state that the frameworks defining dissociative disorders are vague, and that the treatment methodology is inconsistent. I'm not an expert on mental illness, so if you could link me to a study that outlines successful treatments to these disorders, I will retract what I said earlier and agree with you here.

And Shallan's use of magic is harmful to her mental state, in a way not really predictable by a real world model. She can change her appearance and project the appearance of her other personalities in real time, in front of herself, which is more sophisticated than anything someone in real life can achieve. At some point she overlaid Shallan's face over Veil's face (over her own in turn), and projected an image of Shallan while standing elsewhere as Veil. This is a pretty convoluted mechanism of acting out multiple personalities.

Interesting topic though, I'd like to learn more.

[PhineasGage]

@Greywatch 

1) The goalposts haven't changed - People are expressing different opinions and occasionally opinions change - its the point of debate. 

2) The thread has shifted over time because of that discussion. If some people have chosen to stay because of something but others have chosen to leave - that it going to result in a change to the direction of the thread. Nothing anyone can do about it. People can come in here and debate all they like but I can't force them to if they don't want to.

3) You came into the thread, attacked us for being anti Adolin and putting people off posting here and THEN get all offended when we point out that no-one here is going to pander to that. YOU are a moderator which gives you power. You can influence the direction of people's thoughts. You may have stopped people posting anti Adolin stuff because of what you said and that is suppressing their freedom of speech. We aren't doing that because this is only one thread - but you are going to potentially stop people posting it anywhere in the forum. That's not ok.

I apologise for implying you were a snowflake. It was very wrong of me to do so. I will admit that I did let my emotions get the better of me. 

You should, however be aware that at least one person took your post as a personal insult and that is worse than anyone here insulting Adolin, no matter how much anyone relates to him.

 

On that note, ladies and gents, I'm going to retire for the evening (or get banned, you know) but I look forward to reading through your thoughts later.

[Greywatch she/her]

14 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

On that note, ladies and gents, I'm going to retire for the evening (or get banned, you know) but I look forward to reading through your thoughts later.

PhineasGage, I'm not going to ban anyone for disagreeing with me. Not me, nor any of the mods would do that. Disagreements are part of this, certainly, and from my perspective, I've matched the tone of the thread. Perhaps I shouldn't have! It's not an abuse of mod power to have an opinion, but perhaps I should have responded more coolly. But in this thread, I've explained my own thoughts and feelings. None of my posts were meant as attacks, and it's exactly my point that emotions are running hot right now that we are all taking them that way.

If said person who was personally insulted wants to, my inbox is open, and I would be glad to make amends with them directly.

Edited for more.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, straits said:

So? This is a real description of a possible outcome for someone who has this illness. The author doesn't have the responsibility to guide the character from the mental illness towards successful treatment. It could become worse - this could be grounds for Shallan sliding into further mental issues later on in the sequels.

Your problem seems to be with the fact that someone reading this might conclude that she "solved" her issues because she's happy. This interpretation of events from the side of the reader is wrong, and the author is not obliged to spoon-feed the reader.

I see your point. Let us just agree to disagree. Same goes for you @Darvys

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLNC

[AubreyWrites she/her]

33 minutes ago, Darvys said:

All we saw in OB was Shallan making a decision, was it the right one ? We think not, other people think it solved all her problems. Brandon didn't even begin spreading a message, false or otherwise, but we're all jumping to conclusions, you can't hold him responsible for our own precipitation. Beyond that, i'm all for educating the masses, but if it requires authors to limit themselves and reframe their work, then we have a problem. 

Many characters in different stories make bad choices that end up working out, should we discourage authors from writing such stories because they give the wrong idea ? I think not, we have to assume that most readers are wise enough to figure it out, for the rest all you can do is hope they're surrounded by people who'll point them the right direction.

 

28 minutes ago, SLNC said:

No, but give the right closure at end of a book and don't leave it hanging in the air for 3 years, because even if it resolved in a realistic manner in a later book, over those 3 years many will have read the 'supposed solution' and yes it is presented as that, because Shallan feels like it is so. Like I said, confirmation bias is a thing and people, who suffer from similar issues are often subject to this bias.

@SLNC you beat me to it. 

Its not the fact that Shallan makes a (open to interpretation here) wrong decision. If that's a decision she makes on her journey as a character then I am strapped in for the ride no matter which way she goes. But she made a decision and then the book ended. ......crickets......

no her arc doesn't need to be tied up In A Bow- there are seven more books to go but it feels like this arc got violently cut in half. 

What I have always appreciated from Brandon's books is that each book even when part of a series feels like a whole book. We have a beginning, middle, end. It's not THE end but is ONE end to each particular book. 

Paraphrasing @PhineasGage Here in that feeling becalmed in the SS Shallan when expected to make landfall. And now waiting another THREE YEARS to see if land is even in sight or if we are about to fall off the edge of the world into the space of forgotten/dismissed plot points 

[straits]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I see your point. Let us just agree to disagree. Same goes for you @Darvys

Yeah, that's fine with me. I don't think your cause here is bad or that your reasoning is invalid; I just doubt the extent to which an author can be held responsible to other people's decisions.

[Darvys]

3 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Paraphrasing @PhineasGage Here in that feeling becalmed in the SS Shallan when expected to make landfall. And now waiting another THREE YEARS to see if land is even in sight or if we are about to fall off the edge of the world into the space of forgotten/dismissed plot points 

Meh, a bit of hysteria will be nice. Want to count the number of readers who will be willing to give up their firstborn for a Shallan excerpt when the time comes ?

Myself, i don't really share the feeling, that's because i believe that you shippers and i (yeah, i'll never admit to it) are right in our assumptions concerning Shallan's arc in this book, it's the doubt that's creating so much tension, once you accept that what we've been guessing is what's been intended it all kinda fits, we might have hoped for it to be clearer from the text, but that would be no fun either.

 

[Prelude]

If I open SA4 and Shallan has her hand on a burgeoning baby bump I may throw the book across the room. I am a mom with three beautiful kids. Kids don’t fix martial relationship  problems if anything I believe they shine lights on the problems. I shudder to think there being a kid with Shallan as a mom. How confusing would it be for the poor kid. Who is mom today? 

And I don’t know. What if while being intimate with Shallan Veil bleeds through and is like bored and if it’s Radient rolls her eyes at Andolin in the moment. I never got the sense she really gained any control over them. Just saying 

My comment maybe really random to the progression of the thread. I’m really tired with getting no sleep over this book and telling you all now I’m not as smart as you all. So thanks again for letting my chime in random not well written thoughts.