[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Egomere]

1 hour ago, AubreyWrites said:

As much as I read I always hated those classes too both in highschool and college. I think it was both because I dislike being told what to read. They always wanted us to read literature - as if those were the only works that hold any truth or meaning. Nothing  against classics, I read and enjoy those too and often had already read the ones we were studying but they aren't a pedestal to be idolized and I have found just as much  truth and meaning in works that were far more fun to read. and my teachers were always trying to direct the discussion around to their interpretation instead of allowing free flow and assigning material we had to LOOK for meaning in istead of letting the debate arise organically. Bleugh. 

Yaep. And How we were forced to pick them apart and anaylse them - I always felt at that age that too much indepth analyse of either prose or poetry ended up taking away from the intrinsic value of reading something that you interpreted and related to in some personnal manner as well... not disrepectful but taking away the beauty and emotional feels of the work. - I mean too much analyse about what x meant exactly by y relating to political pressure in the 1800's or whatever just felt like why the hell can;t someone read it and just enjoy it...

and now look at me...

[AubreyWrites she/her]

16 minutes ago, Egomere said:

Yaep. And How we were forced to pick them apart and anaylse them - I always felt at that age that too much indepth analyse of either prose or poetry ended up taking away from the intrinsic value of reading something that you interpreted and related to in some personnal manner as well... not disrepectful but taking away the beauty and emotional feels of the work. - I mean too much analyse about what x meant exactly by y relating to political pressure in the 1800's or whatever just felt like why the hell can;t someone read it and just enjoy it...

and now look at me...

It's like you read my mind 

[Greywatch she/her]

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I get your point, and i can definitely be taken that way. I always saw it more as Shallan being essentially bullied into the situation by Tyn and reacting badly to it. On top of that, despite her priviledged position, Shallan is in a precarious place here. She is playing different parts for Tyn, the ccaravan owner (whose name I forget), Tvlakv the slaver, and the deserters she's just essentially hijacked by Lightweaving. I think she was likely trying to show off for Tyn, which whilst not nice for Kaladin, is not the end of the world., and also show that she had some control. I agree that it was possibly not the best of starts, but my point remains. She had lied to Kaladin about being a Horneater princess - and he knows it. Right from that moment - he says "If you were attacked..." to Tyn - I am sure he has at least got doubts - she is in a Vorin dress for a start. This means there was already an element of conflict that would have been enough to cause some difficulties between them. The boots thing was not specifically necessary except to be used as a way to judge the nature of their evolving relationship - going from resentment on both sides, to being able to laugh about it.

I can recognize that she was under stress at the time, but she still 100% should not have done it, and it was still cruel. She's old enough to know better. That said, I agree it was a relief to see that Kaladin can laugh about it now, a book and a half later. The only reason I was happy to see it is because I do think by the end of OB, that Shallan wouldn't have done it again.

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Ok, so I;m going to be a bit confrontational here. Current medical and psychiatric practice shows (with good evidence) that allowing a dissociating person to solidify the barriers between their personas is worsens their prognosis. Assuming (and yes, I am assuming that she has a real-world diagnosable condition) that she has either DID (or, as @FuzzyWordsmith helped me realise) more likely OSDD - see here for details: http://traumadissociation.com/osdd then the best course of action is to treat her the same regardless of which persona she is currently wearing. As a point, I'd like to call on @FuzzyWordsmith to help me explain the differences between OSDD and DID for the community here because I am a little fuzzy (pun intended) on them. 

Additionally, I do not blame Adolin for making this mistake - he is acting with the best intentions. He is not to blame for Shallan's current issues, and he is not to blame if he makes them worse by mistake because he cannot, at this stage at least, know any better. That being said, he has married her which means he is taking on the responsibility of being her main support structure. He could have chosen not to, but he pushed the situation and that in turn resulted in Shallan rushing a decision. Again, it isn't his fault, but that doesn't mean that his actions did not help lead them both here.

I'm had felt I had made myself clear that I was not blaming Adolin. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility. For example, Kaladin is responsible for the men of Bridge 4, but he is not to blame for them dying when on the bridge runs. In the same way, Shallan is not to blame for having a mental health problem, but she is responsible for her own healing.

 

I don't think we're disagreeing about what's going on with her personas or what will fix it; but I do think it's jumping the gun to say that Adolin is doing it wrong based on the fact that when OB ends he's only known about them for about a hot minute. In this, I want to wait and see SA4 to see how he really interacts with them after being introduced to the idea that they exist. I also dislike the idea of holding someone responsible for something they have no way of knowing, ie. the best way to treat multiple personality, which isn't exactly a well known process even to us.

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Oh, I'm not. I have stated more than once that I think Kaladin dodged a bullet (for now). I am a Shalladin shipper but I was enormously relieved that she didn't choose him at the end because "ain't nobody got time for dat". My point has always been that I felt low at the end because when Shallan chose Adolin, it felt rushed. I was also disappointed to see no specific scenes that mirrored the chasm sequence of chapters in WoR - either with Adolin or Kaladin. On top of that I am genuinely concerned for Adolin. He's a good bloke. He is one of the only characters who is properly normal and I like that juxtaposition with the madness of the Radiants around him - some more than others. I think Shallan is bad for him. I think she chose him for the wrong reasons. I think they haven't known each other long enough to be sure that this is going to work and I am not convinced that Shallan will actually give him the support he needs and deserves - yes she may need more support than he does but that doesn;t mean he should get nothing back from her. 

I... love this! Absolutely agree. Upvote!

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Ok, so I fully admit to finding Adolin bland but I don't completely agree that it is because of a lack of page time (although there is certainly an element of that). My own personal take on him is that he is just, well, not that bright. I guess he and I would get on fairly well in real life - after all it is nearly impossible to dislike the man, but honestly, his lack of intellectual curiosity would drive me nuts. He is quite happy to listen to Shallan talk about the chasmfiends or Navani talk about fabrials, but I don't think he does any actual work to learn something new for himself. I may be underestimating him here but unlike Renarin who secretly learns to read etc and seems to be intellectually curious, Adolin seems happy to just go along with it. 

I am going to resist the idea that Kaladin is inherently a better choice, mainly because of your first couple sentences. (It's exactly what Navani said about Evi, and after the OB flashbacks, I admit I've lost respect for Navani because of this line.) Adolin is extremely intelligent and tactically minded. I'm always extremely impressed with him when reading his pov and seeing him deeply understand and support Dalinar's strategies. His mind is often turning and finding angles and coming up with new ideas - just about politics and nations. I really see him as being a lot like his father, in that he has a very keen mind for strategy and tactics, but simply doesn't have an interest in, say, science, in which case, I'd phrase it as he's happy to let the experts take the spotlight and jump in when it's his strong point.

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I always found it interesting that she felt the need to protect a prince with literally everything going for him from a darkeyed captain with slave brands. *shakes head* I mean, seriously, she essentially implies that she also believes Kaladin is cleverer than Adolin - which is obviously true, but given her implied classism she shouldn't be quite so ready to make up her mind on this one.

I have to resist this again, as Kaladin is not cleverer than Adolin, but more apt to banter. I truly don't think the banter Shallan engages in is actually clever - it's just being obtuse and insulting, then feeling superior when they invariably "don't get it". Kaladin, only engaging in this insulting behaviour when Shallan banters with insults him first, at least only directs it at Shallan, and doesn't initiate it.

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

You don't have to answer me, but I invite you to. Don't think, that I don't respect your opinion. I just want to give another perspective.

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*shakes hands with @Greywatch * On a side note, I'll happily jump ship when Adolin and Shallan give me something to get behind  

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I've noticed that you perhaps don't want to continue arguing so whilst I have a number of comments on your post, I will try to be as non-confrontational as possible. You are entirely correct in that this is ultimately down to personal takes on how to read the characters, how much subtext to include, and how each interaction is coloured. I will reply with my own comments below, but I do think you have made your points very well and they are very convincing, but I think you and I are never going to line up on this one! I am happy to drop any conflict here, but I do want to discuss the alternative views each situation can make - more for those joining the discussion who are yet to solidify their own feelings so they see as many possible interpretations as possible. 

 Ahhh... This is point where I think I should clarify my real feelings. (@SLNC, I did read it over, and I think I actually do agree with... most of it, but more below.) 

A lot of times throughout the thread there was talk about how Brandon dropped the ball, and if Shallan and Kaladin don't end up together, that Brandon is at fault and he did something wrong or unskillfully. It really bothered me, and it's not an objective truth.  It might feel that Brandon did something wrong because you really, really like the pairing, but as I've said before, it's just the way you read it. Just because Brandon does something we don't like doesn't mean that it's bad. It's possible the hints he was dropping were setting up a different kind of plot entirely. We just don't know. My favourite reading credo is "the real story is viewed in light of the ending." SA hasn't ended yet, so maybe he really is setting up Shalladin. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he's setting up something else and it won't be obvious until all the pieces are together. But Oathbringer is also a single story, and this single story had an ending, and we can view all of the interactions between the three in light of the fact that Adolin and Shallan ended up choosing each other and Kaladin and Shallan deciding not to act on anything.

I have a viscerally bad reaction when Shalladin because I have a major problem with Shallan. You may have noticed that the majority of my arguments against Shalladin were related to Shallan's behaviour; I've hesitated to say anything because a lot of people do like and identify with Shallan, but I just find her so mean. It's visible in all three books so far that she often mocks and belittles other people, sometimes just to feel clever, sometimes just to make herself feel better. I don't find her funny or clever. She deeply bothers me. OB also brought me a lot of sympathy for her and how seriously her trauma is affecting her; I think at her core she's a really compassionate person who wants to help people. Her ability to see the absolute best in people is her most amazing trait, in my opinion. She's going through a lot of terrible stuff right now, and she's still responsible for her behaviour, and I don't have to like her even though she might have reasons. I think she's worse than usual to Kaladin, and I think no matter how condescending she might be to Adolin (we can disagree about it), I'd still take the open affection she expresses to Adolin over the openly "funny" insults she gives to Kaladin basically every time they interact. That's my preference, and I am never going to find it cute when Shallan does it. I think both Adolin and Kaladin could do better. 

I've said it a couple times throughout this thread that Adolin/Shallan is not my favourite ship - maybe I should be more candid. They're cute and all, but I don't actually really ship it myself. (After defending it for a couple days here, though, my feelings went from grumpy "did they have to end up together" to "THE TEXTUAL EVIDENCE" - crazy what defending something will do for your feelings about it.) But OB clearly made the case for them, viewed in light of how it ended. It might be undone in SA4, but that's the next part of the story, that will have its own ending.

Shipping doesn't have to be about canon, though, and there's been a lot of speculation and ideas and just fun things for Shalladin. Which is great! My point is that it doesn't have to be supported by canon to be a good ship. Related to why I really wanted to respond, it also really bothered me that folks were throwing Adolin under the bus for reasons that were not supported by the SA books at all, but just kind of thrown in there to justify the idea that Kaladin was clearly the better choice. Adolin can be the canon pick and it's fine to just say "I prefer Kaladin with her" instead of picking through the text to invent reasons that Adolin is bad for Shallan to prop up Kaladin by comparison. We don't have to do that. We can just say what we prefer without that. (My main ship is Kaladin/Adolin - there's a lot of fun to be had when one needn't justify the canon-ness of it to anyone else!)

We decide what we like and dislike and read things into that. Adolin and Shallan had a lot to stand behind, but if you don't like the pairing, you just can't see it. It's the same with me and Shalladin. All the interesting connections, textual evidence, hints in the narrative, doesn't make a difference. I don't like the pairing, and I don't find the in-text relationship compelling or interesting or good. Neither of us is going to be logic'ed into liking something else... We just like what we like. In the same way I have a strongly negative reaction to Shallan's bantering, for one example, you clearly have good associations with it. I would never want you to stop having that. But it's not going to be there for everyone reading SA. It doesn't count as textual evidence in support of a ship if person A says 'look at this it's amazing' and person B says 'this is terrible'. It's just our opinions.

[Dreamstorm]

@SLNC and @Harbour building on your prior comments re the “Odium spoke to Shallan” theory, not only does she not follow the real Wit’s advice, but she does follow “Wit”’s advice by ruling her personalities, i.e. forcing her personalities to fall into line...

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“I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed. She has terrible taste in men, and I’ve convinced her to fall in line.”

@Greywatch I really liked your post about shipping and entrenchment on positions. Good analysis of how people react when discussing in the fandom. The only response I will say is that my disappointment is not that Shallan chose Adolin over Kaladin - yes, I don’t get why the author would drag his main protagonist into a love triangle without a major character development payoff, but that’s not the big thing - the big thing is that something seems to wrong about the conclusion of the plotline. And I do feel after it being dissected a lot on this thread, that it was intentional that I had that feeling. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[AubreyWrites she/her]

16 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@SLNC and @Harbour building on your prior comments re the “Odium spoke to Shallan” theory, not only does she not follow the real Wit’s advice, but she does follow “Wit”’s advice by ruling her personalities, i.e. forcing her personalities to fall into line...

@Greywatch I really liked your post about shipping and entrenchment on positions. Good analysis of how people react when discussing in the fandom. The only response I will say is that my disappointment is not that Shallan chose Adolin over Kaladin - yes, I don’t get why the author would drag his main protagonist into a love triangle without a major character development payoff, but that’s not the big thing - the big thing is that something seems to wrong about the conclusion of the plotline. And I do feel after it being dissected a lot on this thread, that it was intentional that I had that feeling. 

I think many of us agree with this sentiment- it's not who she chose but how it came about that doesn't add up. 

I went back and re read that particular bit that you quoted above 

19 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

“I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed. She has terrible taste in men, and I’ve convinced her to fall in line.”

Because something struck me- she says that Veil has terrible taste but she has convinced her to fall in line....when was that? In the 30 seconds prior while she was kissing Adolin back into marrying her? So just like that in a blink, despite the fact that she was literally leering at him earlier alll those feelings have been squared away ship shape? I just have a feeling that's gonna come back to bite her in the butt. 

Also someone mentioned this upthread about momentum. 

"Momentum could be a powerful thing."

shallan thinks this literally seconds before  Adolin walks up in this scene. .....gave me the shivers 

 

[Awesomness]

This may be a good moment to remind everyone that we all (mostly) agree that the problem here is Shallan and her mental health.

Not a shipping war, as every Shalladin Shipper feels relieved they didn't end up together right now.

[Dreamstorm]

44 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

I think many of us agree with this sentiment- it's not who she chose but how it came about that doesn't add up. 

I went back and re read that particular bit that you quoted above 

Because something struck me- she says that Veil has terrible taste but she has convinced her to fall in line....when was that? In the 30 seconds prior while she was kissing Adolin back into marrying her? So just like that in a blink, despite the fact that she was literally leering at him earlier alll those feelings have been squared away ship shape? I just have a feeling that's gonna come back to bite her in the butt. 

Also someone mentioned this upthread about momentum. 

"Momentum could be a powerful thing."

shallan thinks this literally seconds before  Adolin walks up in this scene. .....gave me the shivers 

 

Yes! Things like this are why I’m becoming more convinced there is some Odium influence in Shallan’s actions by the end of the book. “Momentum” throughout this book is hinted to be of Odium (upthread as you said.) I feel like we won’t get a lot of mainstream traction for this idea (see the other thread @SLNC started were there is definitely animosity for the idea) because people will see it as coming from “shipping wars” posters, but it’s really lining up in many ways to what we see in the book. (People who care about the love triangle are the darkeyes of the 17th shard! Joke, joke. Ok maybe not total joke )

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I feel like we won’t get a lot of mainstream traction for this idea (see the other thread @SLNC started were there is definitely animosity for the idea) because people will see it as coming from “shipping wars” posters, but it’s really lining up in many ways to what we see in the book.

I like to believe (hope...) that this community isn't so dismissive.

[sylian]

Actually I think the ending of the "triangle" is a big character development for Kaladin. I think he is the "big winner" in this situation, it just is very subtle. He finally realizes he is the one who should be doing to himself what Tien and after that Shallan were doing - brightening him up. Syl telling Kaladin "You'll be all right" and his answer - "I always am" is a big revelation on his part that in the end, everything will be alright. I actually have been in this situation once: after a very painful breakup there was a moment for realization - "this is good for me and this is the path I am going to take and everything will be fine". I have the feeling that Shallan was kind of distraction for Kal on his inner development - she is providing him with support which actually should be something coming from him. So yes, I was a Shalladin shipper but I am really relieved it happened this way. And I also hope that things will go fine for Adolin. I have this very strange understanding for the Alethi mariages that actually they are working team, not a couple most of the times. The husband goes to war, the wife communicates, organizes, leads. So I think that Shallan and Adolin could split duties and just make it work, at least for a time.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, sylian said:

"I always am" is a big revelation on his part that in the end, everything will be alright.

I think that is more an allegory to how he is always the one, who survives.

[sylian]

Mmm, no...I have the feeling it is said in more bright manner. Right after that he thinks he "coudn't be bitter" and a few moments later he shows the interesting stone to Syl. Of course, this is just how I perceive the scene, so I might be very very wrong. I just feel it like Kal has found out he will be fine on his own without Tien and without Shallan.

[PhineasGage]

Good Morning all. 

Storms this thread is amazing. I don't spend much time on any of the other threads because this one is taking up all my time!

I think, rather than react to each post in order the way I've done over the past few days I'll probably just address the general issues. Special shout-out to @SLNC for the 'Odium Speaks theory' but to everyone here thank you for keeping this thread so enetertaining and interesting.

To @FuzzyWordsmith, @Dreamstorm, @AubreyWrites and @Egomere regarding the conversation about the trustworthiness of Szeth and that he is simply accepted;

I agree with the points about it seeming rushed - like a great deal of the end of OB, there were skips and it was really hard to follow exactly what was going on so it felt rushed. It may have been possible that there was some Szeth/Dalinar interaction that we didn't see there but I don't think there is any specific evidence supporting that. What I do think is that WoR helps understand where Dalinar may be coming from;

Szeth openly admits to not wanting to kill Dalinar but that he must try anyway. Dalinar even thinks to himself that Szeth is not completely sane when Szeth attacks at the end of WoR. BUT Szeth definitely apologises and it is clear that he is, to all intents and purposes, a tool for those who would use him. Dalinar may not understand the exact reasons why Szeth obeys his master (I don;t think Dalinar would know about the Oathstone for example) but he does seem to understand that Szeth is not his true enemy. On top of that (especially after the retcon of Kaladin and Szeth fighting) Kaladin will likely have told Dalinar the whole story about how it went down - including that Szeth essentially gave up and let himself die because he now knew that he'd been right all along about the return of the desolation, coupled with the information that Szeth ran away when Kaladin used stormlight when Szeth first attacked at the end of the first part of WoR, it suggests that he did not necessarily want to kill them. Again, I'm not suggesting that Dalinar or Kaladin knew all of this, but they probably did know enough to not automatically consider Szeth an enemy.

On top of that, Szeth is damned skilled. In their minds he is likely capable of killing (or getting storming close) Kaladin or Dalinar when he turns up but he doesn't even try. Indeed, he lands close enough to if he was going to attack but just takes orders. I also think that Dalinar deliberately put Szeth away from the main fray - away from the ordinary people of Thaylen City and away from as many Radiants as possible whilst still keeping him in a place where he could be watched. On top of that, whilst I think Dalinar likes Lift, I am not so sure he places a great deal of weight on her support at the beginning of the fight - though I am certain that he does after it. This means that whilst he isn't worried about her loyalty per se, he probably has less personal concern for her wellbeing that he does for the other Radiants around him who are all family, or nearly family. I don't think this was done consciously, but most people will put the interests of loved ones ahead of those of strangers. Besides that, she is capable of healing herself better than most of his Radiants (Renarin excepted) and given the way she was able to hide from Odium, is possibly somewhat safer from Szeth than Renarin would be.  As I said though, I think his decision at that moment was instinctive. He trusts his gut.

After the battle, I was definitely sorry not to see at least more acknowledgement of the previous relationship - storms Szeth is now sleeping outside Dalinar's room like the way a medieval court fool used to sleep outside the door of his king. Taravangian admits to having used Szeth to Dalinar, so we know Dalinar knows some of the story but it seems odd that in the week between winning at Thaylen City and the wedding between Adolin and Shallan that there is not even a line of questioning. That being said, Dalinar does  have a history putting unknown elements in the position of his bodyguard after an amazing feat - he did exactly the same to Kaladin. That being said, Kaladin had never tried to kill Dalinar - tho I suspect that Dalinar has guessed that he might have allowed the assassination of Elhokar to nearly go ahead.

Ok, on to the Skybreakers. I think the skybreakers are interesting because it is implied that the Order will split - new members likely to join Dalinar, but older members likely to follow Nalan. It makes sense in a thematic way because the law is supposed to work for both sides of a legal argument - both the defendent and the accuser. The law only works when the system is balanced between both sides so that the truth will come out. In a world where there is at least some belief that the Almighty/God/[Insert Deity here] affects the outcome of combat according to who is right it is not so unusual to see the order split along the lines of those seen as defending their right to reclaim their land, vs those who are the descendents of those who took it. The skybreakers represent the adversarial nature of the courts of law seen in Western countries like the UK or the US (whose system is largely based on the UK's to be fair). This means that in a sense, you have to "trust" them in the same way as you "trust" the lawyers for the defence and the lawyers for the prosecution to do the best job they can and fight for the side they are on and hopefully win. Like real life, it may mean that some will act in unscrupulous ways  but unlike real life, the skybreakers cannot break the oaths they have sworn to uphold the law the way a real lawyer IRL could. They don't really lend themselves to espionage as a result. 

Ok, movin' on, I am now going to comment on the Odium Speaks concept - although I believe someone mentioned a thread had been set up on this too so I'll jump over there in a bit to see what is going on.

I was not majorly on board with this thread until right before I went to bed my mind was blown when it was pointed out the way "Wit" talked about the emotions rather than the minds. I am sure @SLNC thought this was obvious in his original post but honestly, it passed me by like a ship in the night. Once I'd (finally) got it it blew my mind and I slept poorly as a result.

I hope you're happy..... 

Anyway. I was thinking about this and trying to think about how this might work - several people have raised excellent points on this and I've run out of upvotes again - I think I got most of them though. Here are my thoughts.

 We have never seen true telepathy on Roshar. Indeed we have never seen it in the cosmere to my knowledge. The closest thing we see to it is in Mistborn

Spoiler

Where Vin's earring allows her to hear Ruin's voice although he imitates her brother so she is guided down a "ruinous" path. He projects thoughts into her mind, presenting them as her own but in her brother's voice as though they were things her brother said to her in her past - or were things he would  have said if he'd still been around. NB Ruin cannot affect things carved in metal (is it a specific metal? I can't remember)

We have some intersting close similarities on Roshar - the Stormfather can convey images to people - but it is clear that either he or Dalinar must be in their presence to do so. As a second point, we see Dalinar hear "Unite them" but it is unclear exactly where this comes from. I think we all thought is was from Honor before OB but there have definitely been some questions raised (with good reason) about this. Thirdly, Dalinar hears "I forgive you" as he connects to the spiritual realm, presumably from Evi but it may not be. Fourthly, (sorry this got longer as I was writing it) Kal sees a vision of the future in the crystal ball when he touches it (palantir anyone?). That was almost certainly of Odium. Lastly, Dalinar sees "warmth and light" both at the end of WoR and OB. It is suggested that this may be from Cultivation but it may also be that he always has a link to the spiritual realm.

There are two important things that all of these share. Proximity and an entity with access to the Spiritual realm. 

To our knowledge Wit cannot have been near the Heart of the Revel - indeed he specifically states that he cannot get close in an earlier chapter (I think - can someone confirm?) Secondly, whilst Wit is known to be a worldhopper, we do not know how much access he has to the Spiritual realm. Given that he refused to carry a shard of Adonalsium, and he claims to be "just a man" I think we can infer that he probably does not have direct, controllable access. On top of this Shallan certainly does not have access.

I think a lot of people assume Wit/Hoid lies alot. He doesn't. He is truthful almost to a fault but he ties his truths up with so much trimming that the nature of the truth he speaks is not always clear until much later. I, therefore, tend to treat his words with caution, but I generally accept what he is saying, knowing that he is always at least 1 step ahead of me.

As a result, I think it is fair to say that Wit is a very unlikely source of the voice that Shallan hears when she "mind-melds" with Ashertmann. To those who mention Sja-Anat, remember that Shallan never touched her. They had a conversation through a mirror and the physical proximity is needed. Odium may not be able to control the communication without physical contact, just as Ruin cannot - the holders of the Shards of Adonalsium have limited presence in the physical realm and seem to have to reach through via certain specific lines of power. It may be that each also has specific things they cannot affect - again see Mistborn.

The next thing I want to say is that it is clear that Ashertman was part of a trap. It seems reasonable to conclude that Shallan would try to touch him/her/it after her encounter with ReShephir (who may have informed Odium of what happened in some way). Why not, as part of the trap - particularly given the way Odium clearly  has a number of back-up plans, ensure that even if Shallan survives (it is implied that whatever Sja-Anat did to the Oathgate was new and unpredictable) she would already be potentially vulnerable to Odium. Rayse knew Hoid before the shattering of Adonalsium. He likely knows Hoid is around, even if he can't find the man so perhaps he imitated him. On top of that, Shallan may simply have assumed it was Wit's voice (ooooh pehaps Rayse and Hoid are brothers...... lol for completely evidence lacking hypothesis) because they sound enough alike for her to confuse them.  We simply don't know.

Now, this is  a little complicated, but it does fit the evidence. I still would not rule out Hoid (of all people) being able to do some kind of telepathy but BS is known for hard coding his magic and I can't see him breaking the laws of his own universe just for a small moment like this. Better to have a set up where Hoid either is seen performing telepathy so we can see it, or have him unable to perform it - which follows the current knowledge we have and have him imitated at a crucial moment. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by PhineasGage
too many quotes! and spacing

[Guest]

@PhineasGage ;D You're welcome.

I would ask you to add those points to the other thread I have posted regarding this theory, since I've thought that it should be more public.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

And how is everyone today? Judging by how much this thread has grown since I last saw it, I'd say it's been quite the productive day. 

So here's what I've been mulling over all morning. WARNING: Mistborn: Well of Ascension Spoilers.

Spoiler

I decided to examine another triangle closer, a tringle that quite resemblees(in my opinion) the current one. I'm, of course, talking about Elend/Vin/Zane. In WoA Vin cannot decided who she is and who she want to be, the mistborn warrior or the perfect lady that she feels Elend deserves, so she refuses his wedding proposal, until she figures out who se wants to be. She, even, starts to think if someine like Zane(eh, I still cringe when thinking anything regarding him) might fit her better. The enter Tindwyl, who tells her that she can be both, she's one person with many sides and she has to accept herself(or something along those lines if I remember correctly), not unlike Wit tries to do with Shallan. Then, after a very touching conversation with Elend where they both express themselves in a way that fits their characters and neither misconstrues the other's meaning, Vin confronts her doudts and we're left with a very satisfying coclusion with no room for interpretation or doudt left, a strong and solid resolution, which most definitely didn't spawn a 24 pages(currenlty) thread discussing how weak and porous it was.

Consider what we got in OB. I feel we got the exact opposite in every of the above points. What we got is Vin accepting Elend's proposal, without having figured her self out, while Zane is still an option while admitting that at least a part of her has feelings for him (thank Preservation Vin barely had any feeling for Zane or much less than Shallan seems to have for Kal) and promises it'll all be fine. Hopefully you can see where I'm going with this. I'm considering that for two such similar situations to end in such different manners from every prespective, while written by the same person, something must be off. I just can't fathom that such stark contrast is anything but intentional in order to indicate that the plot isn't yet resolved.

Lastly, I am not in any way saying that any of the characters resemble each other, just pointing to the general similarities in both situations.

sidenote: I'm going back into class in a bit and to the gym afterwars so I might not immediately see your answers.

Edited November 24, 2017 by DimChatz
Added some clarification.

[Egomere]

12 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

It's like you read my mind 

Then now for my second trick...........

moving on whilst I prepare said trick.

10 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

I think many of us agree with this sentiment- it's not who she chose but how it came about that doesn't add up.

Because something struck me- she says that Veil has terrible taste but she has convinced her to fall in line....when was that? In the 30 seconds prior while she was kissing Adolin back into marrying her? So just like that in a blink, despite the fact that she was literally leering at him earlier alll those feelings have been squared away ship shape? I just have a feeling that's gonna come back to bite her in the butt. 

Also someone mentioned this upthread about momentum. 

"Momentum could be a powerful thing."

shallan thinks this literally seconds before  Adolin walks up in this scene. .....gave me the shivers

Yes yes yes to the top line.

It also conviniently ignores the attraction Shallan had to Kaladin before Veil could even be counted as a genuine seperate personality - In WoR Veil is very much just a mask / personna Shallan wears in order to be able to move free and interact with the Ghostbloods. It's not really until the end of WoR and throughout OB that she starts becoming a... well 'fully formed and 'functional' personality.

But as to the 'fall in line' I think it was definately in the 30 seconds between Veil and Radiant eyeing up Kaladin at the end of the battle and kissing Adolin - proably with some off page occurance in the week before the marriage. When else could it have been - it's not like as you mentioned she was persuading Veil to accept Adolin beforehand.

Haven't got the page hand to quote - but someone's probably already mentioned it so *shrug* so:

But Damnation she does repress quickly - although I think it's definately going to come back and sucker punch her sometime because if anyone can recall when the three of them are hanging out one night Kaladin gets confused by Shallan's actions - whilst she's chatting to Adolin in Shallan personna it's stated that she gives Kaladin some really leery looks at the same time (explained by Veil seeping through).

So despite everything during the battle (which really did solidify the three personalities) I'm really not sure how much control 'Shallan' actually has over them - I really don't see them behaving like might have done with whichever one was needed at the time - as we've seen 'seepage' of one into another (or maybe not seepage but 'alignment') happen both quickly and unregarded. And it's now this interactions that's either going to completely Break Shallan as a functional human and knight Radiant - or quite possibly as others have posited that result in Pattern's near spren death to mirror Kaladin's treatment of Syl.

The problem is that whilst Kaladin was able to fix himself (even at that stage), if Shallan hasn't come to terms with her three personalities Pattern by the time of Pattern's ... erm what should we even call it when a spren is almost killed by a radiant backtracking?... well anyway whatever it is... he's definately going to be dead sooner rather than later because of Shallan dysfunction and failure to recognise / admit hard truths about Who She Really is and Who she wants to be.

probably going to edit this as that seems very rambly to me but *shrug*

[Dreamstorm]

4 hours ago, sylian said:

Actually I think the ending of the "triangle" is a big character development for Kaladin. I think he is the "big winner" in this situation, it just is very subtle. He finally realizes he is the one who should be doing to himself what Tien and after that Shallan were doing - brightening him up. Syl telling Kaladin "You'll be all right" and his answer - "I always am" is a big revelation on his part that in the end, everything will be alright. I actually have been in this situation once: after a very painful breakup there was a moment for realization - "this is good for me and this is the path I am going to take and everything will be fine". I have the feeling that Shallan was kind of distraction for Kal on his inner development - she is providing him with support which actually should be something coming from him. So yes, I was a Shalladin shipper but I am really relieved it happened this way. And I also hope that things will go fine for Adolin. I have this very strange understanding for the Alethi mariages that actually they are working team, not a couple most of the times. The husband goes to war, the wife communicates, organizes, leads. So I think that Shallan and Adolin could split duties and just make it work, at least for a time.

When I first looked at this ending, I laid out what character development benefits the conclusion had for Adolin, Kaladin and Shallan. Adolin I saw significant development (mainly acceptance of not being the top dog in every situation), and Kaladin some (like you mentioned in being his own happiness and also just presenting him in a “romance” context in order to set up future romances), but for Shallan... that is the real problem. Totally outside of the guy she chose, how and why she makes that choice struck me as sloppy writing and plotting - it did not hang together in a believable way. The main thing is how Shallan’s character interacted in the situation. I think it has been set up throughout OB for Shallan to have a significant amount of ongoing conflict around her fractured personality and how that led to her making an emotionally flawed marriage decision. Maybe she can work through this with Adolin? I’m skeptical based on how we’ve seen him work through her problems before (blindly accept and ignore seems to be the theme) and also skeptical based on the Kaladin set-up (not enough payoff for his character after 1.5 books of involvement.) But I’m not discounting that possibility. What I can’t get behind after all this analysis is the idea that the Shallan who made the marriage decision was acting in an emotionally healthy manner. Her decision itself was very, very flawed - maybe she can resurrect a healthy marriage from that flawed decision, but I am personally doubtful. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Starla]

@Dreamstorm I agree that Shallan is the issue in this storyline. Over the last few days I’ve been pondering what bothered me so much about her character in this book, and it boils down to the fact that she feels like a damsel in distress who was rescued by a knight in shining armor in the end. It takes the power away from her and gives it the person she commits to in a relationship. Wherever she goes from here, I feel like she is diminished somehow. If she is now able to heal, it is because Adolin has helped fix her, not because she found healing on her own. If she doesn’t heal, or if the healing is an illusion based on a false sense of security, then she will not have the opportunity to work on herself as an individual. She is married to a Highprince and all the duties and responsibilities that go along with that, and there probably won’t be a lot of time for self-reflection. 

In considering the author’s intent, I get the sense that he is suggesting that this is a good step for Shallan. I expect that in the next book Adolin will help her heal, and she will get better. That seems like a good thing on the surface, but I was hoping for more from Shallan as a character. She started out as a shy, awkward country girl who I could relate to in book 1. I have been so excited to watch her grow and develop into a strong, confident, independent Knight Radiant who is fully in control of her own destiny. At the end of OB she seems like a broken girl who took “the road more travelled” by attaching herself to a strong man for stability. My issue is not who she chose in the end, but that she didn’t realize that needed to to get herself together before making a huge life decision like marriage. Perhaps I'll be surprised in a future book and the story will take an unexpected turn that allows Shallan to come to her own rescue, but I'm not holding out much hope at this point.

As of now, Jasnah has become that strong female character for me. I don’t relate to her nearly as much as I did Shallan in the beginning, but she’s an interesting character in her own right and we don’t have many other options for great female protagonists. 

@sylian I agree with your assessment that Kaladin made progress at the end with his realization that he’s going to be alright. I'm kind of bummed he got used as a tool for Shallan’s identity issues in this book (that comment about Veil having terrible taste in men still irks me), but at the very least it should provide some good opportunity for growth in the next book, related to his depression and next ideal. 

Apologies to everyone for droning on and on about my issues with Shallan in this thread. I’m trying to make peace with it so it doesn’t spoil what is otherwise a really good book, and it’s probably getting tedious. Probably time to move on... yeah right.  

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Starla said:

I expect that in the next book Adolin will help her heal, and she will get better.

Yeah, wouldn't that be storming great. Adolin Kholin, Mr. Nicest Person on Roshar, faces no consequences killing a highprince in cold blood, gets the girl, helps her overcome her issues, revives his Shardblade, becomes a storming Edgedancer, you know, just on the side.

Storms, I really want to like Adolin, but this rust is making me hate his character. Everything just falls to him.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

@Dreamstorm and @Starla

I do see where you are both coming from, and I agree that in comparison with the previous 2 books (WoR in particular for me) Shallan certainly had her very weak moments. I don't mean that the writing was weak per se, more that she struggled so much more with things we have previously seen her cope with.

The idea that she played "the damsel in distress" is very poignant though and, I think, accurate. The problem for Shallan is that I think she believes that Adolin wants the "damsel in distress" persona so she starts playing it up a bit. I don't necessarily think that's true - but after he promised in WoR that he "would protect her" etc - which she completely rejects at the time - it would not be such a leap for her to think that is actually what he wants in a woman. We've talked previously about her making the "perfect wife Shallan" and I think this may be part of it. 

I do want to comment on how Shallan in this book is a bit like Kaladin in WoR.

Kaladin in WoR annoyed quite a number of of readers from what I remember because he was still so mopey. He really struggled to come to terms with his burgeoning identity (sound familiar?) as a Knight Radiant and with the inherent conflict within him of vengeance vs righteousness. Again, does this sound familiar? Shallan faces serious internal conflict thoughout OB as a result of trying to reconcile what she thinks she wants vs what she knows she should be. Her struggle manifests very differently of course, and she ends the book with a resolution that seems much more rushed than Kaladin's agonised change of heart regarding Elhokar. The problem is that it is unclear to us as readers whether she has made the "right" decision like Kaladin did, or whether she is still acting a bit like he did before he had his change of heart, where he was trying to fool himself. 

Kaladin had clearly made a choice and it was obvious to readers that his choice was right for him. Now I'm not suggesting that he should have let Elhokar die, but I think that if Kaladin had genuinely thought it was necessary, he'd have killed the man himself rather than hide away and pretend it wasn't happening.

So this is interesting because we have no definite way of knowing. There are definite parallels here between these two arcs, but it is unclear if Shallan is following Kaladin's path of choosing the "right" path for her, or whether she is mirroring him and actually is still in the equivalent of his "Elhokar needs to die" phase. Given the alacrity with how the book ended, I think it is supposed to be ambiguous. 

On a side note, even if she has made the right choice and Adolin does help her, it doesnt mean that she is diminished for needing help. We all need help sometimes and this is a situation when anyone would need the help of as many people around them as possible I think.

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Storms, I really want to like Adolin, but this rust is making me hate his character. Everything just falls to him.

And people wonder why we find Adolin annoying? 

Edited November 24, 2017 by PhineasGage
can't type apparently.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

To be honest with you guys, Shallan's reaction to the arranged marriage bothered me since WoR where she immediately responds positively to it and saying something along the lines of "I spend my whole life expecting my father to pick my husband" so, naturally, now that she's free from that and Jasnah suddenly suggests an arranged marriage she isn't bothered by it at all? No matter how beneficial it might be for her family having the freedom to chose taken from her so suddenly should annoy her even a little bit. And of course the scenes with Adolin that followed didn't help at all, not me at least. I think they were supposed to be cute and funny, but I found them to be trying too hard for "cute and funny" and ending up with cartoonish. Pair that with what we got in OB, which was so well described abone by @Starla @Egomere @Dreamstorm, this whole romance feels so shallow and cheap to me. And on top of that, I feel that all this was done so that another(!) arranged marriage could work which just annoys me even more.

Edited November 24, 2017 by DimChatz

[Egomere]

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, wouldn't that be storming great. Adolin, Mr. Nicest Person on Roshar, gets the girl, helps her overcome her issues, revives his Shardblade, becomes a storming Edgedancer, you know, just on the side.

Storms, I really want to like Adolin, but this rust is making me hate his character. Everything just falls to him.

Well whoever said nice guys finish last... but so far Adolin hasn't really seemed to have any character growth - we have discovered MORE of his character, movtivations and the ilk so his character has been developed - but nothing that has happened to actually progress his character beyond what he already has been.

He's like the most stable, nicest person most charmy charming person ever written that just wanders through life getting everything he wants, not to mention the fact that the murder he committed gets disregarded, everyone seems to love him and nothing seems to faze him (although that maybe due to his slower thought process - by the time he realises it should have he's already killed / befriended or ignored it).

Would it be cruel to want him to get sent to Braize (although he'd probably still come back with perfect hair) just to see if he finally progresses from Mr Nicest Guy to Mr Nicest Guy with some issues...

Edited November 24, 2017 by Egomere

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

38 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, wouldn't that be storming great. Adolin Kholin, Mr. Nicest Person on Roshar, faces no consequences killing a highprince in cold blood, gets the girl, helps her overcome her issues, revives his Shardblade, becomes a storming Edgedancer, you know, just on the side.

Storms, I really want to like Adolin, but this rust is making me hate his character. Everything just falls to him.

Don't forget getting to fight Odium's Champion in the end, and presumably winning, since, you know, he is the ranking dueling champion, his lifelong dream which he fulfilled last book.

But I guess we shouldn't be too hard on Adolin for being such a cardboard cut-out dipped in vanilla and the poster-boy for perfection. Being too perfect, although dull, isn't a bad thing, but it makes for a boring character, at least to me because some people like that sort of thing(and that's fine as well). Just to be fair, he grew on me a bit in this last book. I bet I'd like him more if he weren't such plot device, in th Way of Kings he provided an external POV to Dalinar's struggle, in WoR he assisted with the plot of taking down Sadeas and provided a subject for Shallan's daydreaming, and just when for a hot moment he is about to get interesting it all gets shoved under the carpet for cuddly scenes with Shallan and being a side to a triangle with no real pay off for anyone. I guess my problem is that he's just there to assist with what is currently going on with the plot and not much outside of that.

Um, maybe we should stop discussing this particular matter now? This is turning a bit into Adolin hating and I'm sure we are being harsher than we ought to... 

Edited November 24, 2017 by DimChatz
Expanded on some stuff.

[Starla]

15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, wouldn't that be storming great. Adolin Kholin, Mr. Nicest Person on Roshar, faces no consequences killing a highprince in cold blood, gets the girl, helps her overcome her issues, revives his Shardblade, becomes a storming Edgedancer, you know, just on the side.

Oh, you're pushing in the knife in even deeper! Part of what makes this so hard to take is that Shallan is being rescued by Captain Awesome (anyone remember Chuck?), and I actually like him. I've been captivated by his charm just like Shallan and everyone else. If I didn't like him it would be easier to write them both off characters in a cheesy fairy tale romance, but I can't be upset with Adolin at all. I think he genuinely loves her and I most feel sorry for him for taking on this huge responsibility.

@PhineasGage and @DimChatz you bring up some interesting points that I'd want to respond to, but alas the world outside needs try attention for awhile. More later ...

[Awesomness]

23 minutes ago, Egomere said:

not to mention the fact that the murder he committed gets disregarded

THIS is whats ruining Adolin.

Let´s summarize Adolin (just because its so easy):

• Nice guy (like really nice): ok
• Not emotionally broken: someone has to be mentally-healthy in this series!
• Not exactly an intelectual: fine, cute
• Duelist: well... not the most interesting of callings, but not so bad either. Summerchild.
• Reviving Maya: well he is nice with her, and everyone else is getting powers anyway... who doesn't want the shard blades to resurrect?
• Gets the girl: he doesn't fly, give him a break.
• Incredibly handsome prince: see other redeeming qualities
• Avoids responsability of killing Sadeas because "good riddance" and "we need a highprince and Renarin...Renarin...whatever"
• Avoids responsibility of becoming king because...he killed Sadeas?

I do like him, he is adorable, but the Sadeas Murder Storyline could have been his opportunity for development, and just fell flat. 

Even though, Maya´s storyline and his supportive attitude toward Shallan and Kaladin made for maybe his best arc till now. So, I think Brandon really needs to figure out if he will be a flat-ish side character or a full fledged one. 

[Dreamstorm]

So, I REALLY like Adolin. I don’t want him to die. I want him to succeed. I’m indifferent on him becoming Radiant or not - I think it could be interesting either way. There are so many Adolin moments I love on all of the books. I didn’t mind him and Shallan in WoR; I thought the emotional set-up for Kaladin was better, but I could have been persuaded either way by the author. The thing that @Starla notes worries me intensely though - that Sanderson is OK with Shallan’s lack of agency and falling back on a strong, powerful man to solve her issues, and therefore this was his conclusion to her romantic arc. After all our discussion, I’m now hopeful that isn’t the case (whether or not Kaladin is the endgame - though if he’s not, I don’t understand why he was used as a side character in Shallan’s romantic arc, but that doesn’t morally offend me like the girl finding redemption in a strong worldly man rather than being able to stand on her own two feet.) We won’t know for a while, though, so I’ll reserve judgment until the next book (or two...)

Btw, it also aggravates me to no end that some people think this is all about shipping. It’s not at all. It’s disppointment in how romance is used in relation to a female character’s development.