[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

Do we have a definitive yes she is lvl 4 now, or is it just that she progressed farther than any one else?  She regressed, and from what I have seen has not made it back to where she was as a child.  Now if she can come to terms with her issues than yes, but she is still hiding from the truth.  I feel like the issue of her and pattern killing her mother still isn't fully resolved.

 

Quote

 

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156-words-of-radiance-lexington-signing/#e2845

Kaladin is on step 3, which would make Shallan to be on step 4.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[Fallen_Ash]

28 minutes ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

Do we have a definitive yes she is lvl 4 now, or is it just that she progressed farther than any one else?  She regressed, and from what I have seen has not made it back to where she was as a child.  Now if she can come to terms with her issues than yes, but she is still hiding from the truth.  I feel like the issue of her and pattern killing her mother still isn't fully resolved.

She doesn't have Shardplate yet. I believe OB said Skybreakers don't get theirs until level 4, so it might be similar for other orders. WoB is that each order gets their Shardblade at different levels, so it's likely that the same rule applies to Shardplate, but I would guess most Radiants get it earlier than the fifth ideal, at least. 

And since each order is different, we don't know how advanced she was when she killed her mom. It's possible that a Lightweaver can manifest a Shardblade after saying the first Words (though that's probably unlikely). 

[Guest]

You don't have to answer me, but I invite you to. Don't think, that I don't respect your opinion. I just want to give another perspective.

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Factually, Adolin and Shallan have expressed interest and attraction towards each other frequently, intentionally chosen to spend a lot time together to have fun and get to know each other better, think about each other a lot, express how much they care about the future of the relationship, and try their best to support the other person's feelings and goals.

Attraction - check.

Dating - check, but it was kind of expected from them due to being in a causal betrothal.

Thinking about each other - Adolin more than Shallan. Shallan's thoughts are all over the place.

Expression of how much they care about the future of their relationship - Adolin yes, Shallan not so much.

Support - Once again, Adolin yes, Shallan? I must vehemently disagree. I can't remember an instance, where she ever asked Adolin about his feelings about a matter, when it wasn't about her and her own anxieties. Hell, I can't even remember a simple How are you? Where Adolin acts completely selfless, she acts selfish. Sure, she helps him with the murder investigation, but she also helps Kaladin opening the Oathgate to Thaylen City... It is not like Shallan is a person, that is not helpful or not glad to help, but she is completely selfish in regards to feelings, which is bad. Very bad, when it comes long lasting relationships, especially with a rather passive, who just accepts that circumstance, partner like Adolin. This is stuff, that, after the honeymoon phase full of passion ends, creates distance between partners and one sided relationships

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Kaladin and Shallan got lost in a chasm once, had a conversation with a kindred spirit which was nice, only spent time in the other's presence when Adolin was around, spent some time thinking about the other but ultimately chose not spend time together or use whatever time they had together getting to know each other, instead exchanging barbs and being kind of mean to each other.

You know... before the chasm, they hated each other, right? Not only because of their difference in social status, but also personally. They spent a day or so in the chasm and overcame all of that. Hell, they have grown to like each other. There are plenty of hints of that in Part one and a bit in Part two of Oathbringer, where Shallan gives Kaladin nicknames, keeps track of him, while he is away (we learn of his reports back to Urithiru solely through her and not through Dalinar or someone else), involuntarily draws a near perfect sketch of him drawing creationspren etc. Vice versa, Kaladin confesses that he likes Shallan to the reader, when Syl confronts him with it.

They spend the time they have alone to have normal conversation, in fact, Shallan acts the most natural around Kaladin, with that I mean, the way she was before she fractured her personality due to the trauma of remembering her mother's death by her hand. She's just getting abrasive at him, when Adolin is around. I think, it is because she is in denial of how much she actually likes Kaladin, thus we see herself pushing those feelings off to Veil. Luckily, Kaladin in stoic (and probably depressed) enough, that he doesn't let it get to him.

Why don't they spend more time together? Because Adolin is between them. I don't mean it offensive, it is just a statement of fact.

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Even when Shallan was thinking about Kaladin, it was drawing his face or thinking "I should go flirt with him" and not even ... about him? I just haven't seen Shallan and Kaladin caring about each other's wants and needs.

Sure. She is attracted to him, but she actually thinks about him. She thinks about his passion and intensity. She's actually building up longwinded metaphors for it in her head. She thinks, about his life story, that he told her. She hasn't forgotten all that.

They don't care about each others wants or needs? Now, that is just plain wrong. On the boat, Kaladin tells her about his desire to go to Thaylen City, he is confident, that Dalinar is in danger and, even though, Shallan is sceptical about it, she thinks about it and actually approaches him to talk about it a few chapters later. Has she ever done something like that for Adolin? I can't remember. Hell, when Adolin's fashion thing comes out again, Shallan actually thinks Oh, Adolin..., which, while affectionate, also shows, that she is deriding it a bit. Vice versa, Adolin needed to be persuaded to finally do someting Shallan wanted to do (the menagerie visit) and even then he didn't really show any interest in what Shallan is doing, instead wandering away and letting a child play with his Shardplate helmet. Kaladin also recognized how happy Shallan looked, while flying and immediately felt the desire to show her how to really fly. He just slammed down that thought, because of... Adolin.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[DeployParachute]

Awww snap, @maxal has joined us. 

[Guest]

Another thing I think might be foreshadowing:

When Shallan and the others jump from the Honor's Path to find the Oathgate in Shadesmar, she locked hands with Adolin and Pattern.

Quote

She sank into the beads, which rolled against her skin, overwhelming her senses with thoughts of trees and rocks. She fought the sensations, struggling to keep herself from thrashing too much. She clung to Adolin, but Pattern's hand was pulled from her grip.

Could her clinging to Adolin and thus keeping up her mask compromise her bond with Pattern?

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

Morning all. EVeryone feeling good about being in the most active, ambitious and wonderful thread on the forums? I hope so

12 hours ago, straits said:

I don't see a problem with taking the conclusion of the love "triangle" at the end of OB at its face value. Shallan and Adolin enter a mariage of love, mutual support and some political value, and Kaladin gets the emotional closure he needs. For Kaladin in particular, this is definitely the healthiest outcome.

...

There are good indicators that the triangle could be finished, but then again. given Sanderson's ostensible understanding of how much a person can change, the romance could resurface after a couple of books.

So I agree that the "triangle" is finished given that there is a year time-gap planned between end of OB and beginning of book 4. That being said, I think there are a reasonable reasons for thinking that the marriage between Adolin and Shallan is going to be less than happy. I mean for one thing, it is massively rushed. A second thing is that Adolin is treating Veil as a drinking buddy. I don't know about you but when I've been out with my SO, he isn't suddenly my drinking buddy, he remains my SO even if we are playing drinking games. My relationship with him doesn't shift according to what I am doing or the mood I am in - it has shifted over time according to our level of attachment, but not on a moment by moment basis.

I do agree that Kaladin has dodged a bullet for now. Unfortunately Adolin is about to take it instead. And I'm not sure if he'll survive the encounter. Note, even if he becomes an Edgedancer proper, we haven't seen a Radiant die yet. That is worrying on all sorts of levels.

 

@Greywatch  I've noticed that you perhaps don't want to continue arguing so whilst I have a number of comments on your post, I will try to be as non-confrontational as possible. You are entirely correct in that this is ultimately down to personal takes on how to read the characters, how much subtext to include, and how each interaction is coloured. I will reply with my own comments below, but I do think you have made your points very well and they are very convincing, but I think you and I are never going to line up on this one! I am happy to drop any conflict here, but I do want to discuss the alternative views each situation can make - more for those joining the discussion who are yet to solidify their own feelings so they see as many possible interpretations as possible. 

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I do not like any said "in-joke" between Kaladin and Shallan, as the origin of it was... not great. Shallan enjoying getting a rise out of Kaladin, and actively consciously trying to do it is juvenile, especially if it's an actual attempt to flirt. I think it's obnoxious and upsetting in real life, and Shallan doing it did not make me like her any better. But she often uses juvenile behaviour to cope, so at least it's in line with her characterization. I cannot see these "jokes" as a genuine attempt to connect. If you like that sort of thing, more power to you, but it wasn't cute or charming for everyone. Those same things that made you like the ship turned me off of it completely. I mentally begged Brandon not to have them be romantically together for the same reasons you want it to happen.

I get your point, and i can definitely be taken that way. I always saw it more as Shallan being essentially bullied into the situation by Tyn and reacting badly to it. On top of that, despite her priviledged position, Shallan is in a precarious place here. She is playing different parts for Tyn, the ccaravan owner (whose name I forget), Tvlakv the slaver, and the deserters she's just essentially hijacked by Lightweaving. I think she was likely trying to show off for Tyn, which whilst not nice for Kaladin, is not the end of the world., and also show that she had some control. I agree that it was possibly not the best of starts, but my point remains. She had lied to Kaladin about being a Horneater princess - and he knows it. Right from that moment - he says "If you were attacked..." to Tyn - I am sure he has at least got doubts - she is in a Vorin dress for a start. This means there was already an element of conflict that would have been enough to cause some difficulties between them. The boots thing was not specifically necessary except to be used as a way to judge the nature of their evolving relationship - going from resentment on both sides, to being able to laugh about it.

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Shallan's fractures are also fairly recent. I think you and I just have different takes on what Shallan's different personas mean. I'm of the opinion that they are a coping behaviour and Shallan isn't ready to let go of them yet. Adolin is not the reason they exist.

Actually I agree with you completely here. Not sure how I made myself unclear and I apologise for doing so. Dissociation, almost by definition, is a coping mechanism. Various forms of it are normal as long as they don't become prolonged or occur too frequently. Some occur as part of other neurological phenomena such as migraines or epilepsy. Other occur after trauma (flashbacks in PTSD are a form of dissociation for example). She isn't ready to let go of them, but then, people with DID aren't either, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be helped to try - continuing down this route could very well leave her in a completely dysfunctional state.

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Adolin is also not her therapist, and it's not his job to tell Shallan how to be healthy. His job is to support her, and it's my strong opinion that accepting all of Shallan right now and not avoiding/dismissing/denying the reality of Shallan's personas is more helpful than the other way around. All that would do is just have Shallan continue having them, but in secret. Adolin was not the cause of her fractures, and he is not the reason she's continuing to have them. Her personas are part of HER issues, they are part of her process, and she will continue to work on bringing her personas back into herself (or not! we'll find out in SA4!) and you are putting way more fault on Adolin than exists in the text. 

Ok, so I;m going to be a bit confrontational here. Current medical and psychiatric practice shows (with good evidence) that allowing a dissociating person to solidify the barriers between their personas is worsens their prognosis. Assuming (and yes, I am assuming that she has a real-world diagnosable condition) that she has either DID (or, as @FuzzyWordsmith helped me realise) more likely OSDD - see here for details: http://traumadissociation.com/osdd then the best course of action is to treat her the same regardless of which persona she is currently wearing. As a point, I'd like to call on @FuzzyWordsmith to help me explain the differences between OSDD and DID for the community here because I am a little fuzzy (pun intended) on them. 

Additionally, I do not blame Adolin for making this mistake - he is acting with the best intentions. He is not to blame for Shallan's current issues, and he is not to blame if he makes them worse by mistake because he cannot, at this stage at least, know any better. That being said, he has married her which means he is taking on the responsibility of being her main support structure. He could have chosen not to, but he pushed the situation and that in turn resulted in Shallan rushing a decision. Again, it isn't his fault, but that doesn't mean that his actions did not help lead them both here.

I'm had felt I had made myself clear that I was not blaming Adolin. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility. For example, Kaladin is responsible for the men of Bridge 4, but he is not to blame for them dying when on the bridge runs. In the same way, Shallan is not to blame for having a mental health problem, but she is responsible for her own healing.

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

(1) Shallan is not stagnating. She's in a process and we don't know where it will end up with her, and the book ends while she's still in progress. We actually don't know where this will end up, and her mental health journey has been radically fast when you consider how short a span the books have actually covered so far. This might be a short stop of a few months along her journey. We don't know! 

Quick point, but generally progression into DID or OSDD is actually quite quick IRL. It is often the result of a specific traumatic trigger. There usually have been some dissociating behaviours present prior to division of the core personality. Shallan fits this pattern (Pattern?) as she has blackouts and periods of depersonalisation (going "cold") before we see full personality dissociation in OB. I am not clear whether the Shallan of tWoK and WoR is a persona but I am certain that by the end of OB it definitely is. The more I have read about DID and OSDD the more I realised that she has some very "textbook" elements to her situation.

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

(2) Shallan's reaction about stressing over what Adolin thinks of her, worrying about what he thinks, becoming occupied with presenting her good side to him is (a) something that normal people experience when dating someone, taken to an unhealthy extreme because of Shallan's specific issues, and (b) something that she would be experiencing with any romantic partner at this time.Where you see this as a specific reaction to Adolin, I have always seen as her reaction to a romantic partner. A lot of these feelings of "will they still like me if they really know who I am?" are perfectly normal, and something I always took as a given that she would experience with Kaladin as well had she chosen to pursue a relationship with him instead. (One conversation in the chasm is not enough to know a person, no matter what they shared, and the chasm scene was nice, but not the basis of a relationship.)

I didn't! Must have missed it. I'm away to make supper right after this, but I'll check it out when I'm sitting down again tonight.

'Dating' - you are absolutely right. But they aren't dating. They are married. Now obviously there are some personal takes on this and anyway we are modern RL people and the characters are Medieval-esque and fictional so their social norms and mores are going to be radically different. On top of that both would have grown up expecting an arranged marriage which does not seem to be the norm for people in this thread (if there is anyone here with either the experience of an arranged marriage or the expectation of one I;d love to get their insight). I guess my problem is that their relationship is still so ..... young and immature - I don't mean the characters (although that is also true imo) but that they are still trying to understand some basic core ideas of each other's personalities. Everyone has to start at that point, but most of us aren't getting married while still in that stage.

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Lastly on this, if you're trying to make an argument against Adolin in favour of Kaladin, the seven months argument is negated by the fact that she's known Adolin and Kaladin for the same amount of time. 

Oh, I'm not. I have stated more than once that I think Kaladin dodged a bullet (for now). I am a Shalladin shipper but I was enormously relieved that she didn't choose him at the end because "ain't nobody got time for dat". My point has always been that I felt low at the end because when Shallan chose Adolin, it felt rushed. I was also disappointed to see no specific scenes that mirrored the chasm sequence of chapters in WoR - either with Adolin or Kaladin. On top of that I am genuinely concerned for Adolin. He's a good bloke. He is one of the only characters who is properly normal and I like that juxtaposition with the madness of the Radiants around him - some more than others. I think Shallan is bad for him. I think she chose him for the wrong reasons. I think they haven't known each other long enough to be sure that this is going to work and I am not convinced that Shallan will actually give him the support he needs and deserves - yes she may need more support than he does but that doesn;t mean he should get nothing back from her. 

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

My perception has never been that Adolin had an idealized version of Shallan in his head. Shallan thinks that he does, but his pov never supports that. He takes her at face value and readily accepts whatever Shallan says and does as really cool and a new part of the woman he's starting to love. The other relationships, yeah, there's lots of idealization going on, which happens with young folks who like each other: Kaladin to Shallan, Shallan to Kaladin, Shallan to Adolin. 

I don't agree that Adolin's version isn't idealised, but then I suppose that's obvious  

I feel that Adolin has a clear image of Shallan in his head but that it is the one Shallan put there. Shallan herself in WoR says that her relationship with Adolin is like the one she has with Mraize and that she has to go beyond expectations etc. Adolin may have got a perfectly good idea of what that Shallan looks like, but it doesn't mean he's got her as a whole. I see very little evidence that she has changed her modus operandi when it comes to interacting with Adolin. She still presents the "innocent lively Shallan. Quick with a quip. even when nobody wants to hear it. Earnest, but sometimes overeager." (Chapter 29 OB) to him through most of OB. Even when he sees Veil, he not only separates her from "the real" Shallan, but she strongly feels that the real one is the one I just described. 

On another note, not sure how much Shallan idealises Kaladin. I mean, he glows and flies... difficult not to I suppose, but I don't remember a specific moment when she clearly thinks about him in a way that doesn't essentially line up with who he is as a person - I'm happy to be corrected. Kaladin though does idealise Shallan a bit though as he tends to see her "light" (like he did with Tien) rather than the darkness behind it. Oh, I'm also pretty sure Shallan doesn't idealise Adolin either - at least I think her own estimations of him line up with mine. 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

So all in all, Adolin could have been very interesting in OB, but Brandon didn't want to write him this way.

Ok, so I fully admit to finding Adolin bland but I don't completely agree that it is because of a lack of page time (although there is certainly an element of that). My own personal take on him is that he is just, well, not that bright. I guess he and I would get on fairly well in real life - after all it is nearly impossible to dislike the man, but honestly, his lack of intellectual curiosity would drive me nuts. He is quite happy to listen to Shallan talk about the chasmfiends or Navani talk about fabrials, but I don't think he does any actual work to learn something new for himself. I may be underestimating him here but unlike Renarin who secretly learns to read etc and seems to be intellectually curious, Adolin seems happy to just go along with it. 

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This was a huge anti-climax. I actually have problems seeing how Brandon thought in regards to this. Having Adolin revive Maya would have given the book a more powerful ending, and given him a complete arc. I guess Brandon wants to have Adolin around as the Average Joe, but still... it was wierd.

I think Adolin's full arc isn't done. We dont have space for everything in one book, and there need to be things that tie the books together. So far, each of our main Mains (Shllan, Dalinar, Kaladin) have taken up a huge amount of page time in each book. Adolin is a major side character, so his arc, by necessessity needs to cross several books. We will not likely see him achieve the same levels as Shallan, Dalinar or Kaladin, in terms of Radianthood (if he gets there) but his arc will continue and be directly linked to the progression he has had as a character from tWoK through all the books.

6 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

Im excited about his continuing arc.

Yes, me too - his is one of the threads that seems the most likely to be picked up going forward and this means we can theorycraft with it as a baseline.

 

5 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

Don't get me wrong - I do feel like she was being straightforward for the most part with Adolin in WoR- nor do I think she seriously considered Kaladin as a potential choice in WoR since he is darkehed and she is definitely rockin' some classicism from her upbringing. That doesn't mean they didn't have a spark- chemistry all over the place. And most of her banter is just that- banter. She tends to fall back on banter when she's uncomfortable ( jasnah calls her out on it several times) 

but the time she spends with Adolin is always light and frothy feeling. Surface feels and thoughts. She shows him what he expects to see because she DOES want to keep him. He is safe and fun and she genuinely likes him. But the fact that she doesn't have any inclination to show him anything deeper about herself even before she fragments and doesn't make any effort to know HIM on a deeper level doesn't fill me with hope for their future. 

and yes the chasms were a bonding moment for Shallan/Kaladin. One moment. But it was a huge moment. Kaladin found out more about her in those hours down there then all the months before and after that she spent with Adolin. And yeah in OB she does treat him like crap and then moons over him seconds later. If this is immature then yeah - she's barely 18 and dealing with Long past trauma and the end of the world and I  still think resentment over Heleran's death is now stuffed up there in that mess if a brain of hers.?

but it also brings to mind this quote from The Village - referencing M. Night Shamylan 

"Sometimes we don't do things so others won't know we want to do them." 

Especially after jasnah calls her out over her wandering eyes the "Shallan" persona gets even meaner to Kaladin while pushing all attraction into the Veil persona. Attempts to assuage feelings she doesn't want to have despite having them much? 

After crystallizing my feelings from this thread - I'm glad she didn't choose Kaladin right now - not particularly happy about Adolin choice either but that's just because I see lots more pain in that future.  But hey- it will make for interesting reading on their journey! 

I agree with basically eveything in this statement and want to highlight it again for anyone who missed it.

5 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Then this really is an impasse, because I can decide here that's enough for me to not like it; just as you can decide you still like the ship in spite of all that.

*shakes hands with @Greywatch * On a side note, I'll happily jump ship when Adolin and Shallan give me something to get behind  

3 hours ago, maxal said:

On the romance side, I just want Adolin and Shallan to be happy together, to adopt Gavinor and to raise him as their son  

Storms, Shallan as a mother? Hasn't Gavinor suffered enough??!

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

She wasn't she says that herself. That she painted a face for him. I think it was quoted here... somewhere. I'll find it later.

And yes, Shallan was condescending, until she learned, that Kaladin might have had some reason to be like that, which makes all of this even more meaningful.

I also view Shallan as not bothering to tease Adolin (because he just didnt get it) as a form of condescension. She doesnt treat him as an equal which given that they are now married is not something that should fly.... pun somewhat intended.

3 hours ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

The thing is i dont think she is a lvl 4 lightweaver.  She has obviously sworn the first three ideals.  1 is static...  Always the same...  2 and 3 are more questionable though.  I don't think "I am terrified" counts.  It is obvious she is terrified, and it doesn't reveal much about herself.  "I am a murderer" however... A very powerful truth.  Additionally, while she admitted to killing her mother, the ideal  has been "sworn, but not yet accepted."  (I probably misquoted that).  She just isn't there yet.  We don't have any lvl 4 Radiants yet.

1 hour ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

Do we have a definitive yes she is lvl 4 now, or is it just that she progressed farther than any one else?  She regressed, and from what I have seen has not made it back to where she was as a child.  Now if she can come to terms with her issues than yes, but she is still hiding from the truth.  I feel like the issue of her and pattern killing her mother still isn't fully resolved.

This has been confirmed by WoB: 

TGANCHERO

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin.

 see http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=shallan+threshold

 

1 hour ago, Fallen_Ash said:

Of course, she is likely going to get some serious character development (I hope), but I don't think this is a healthy way to start a marriage. You shouldn't go into marriage expecting everything to work itself out. She entered into a really serious commitment without really considering what it means, which I think is VERY unfair to Adolin. 

I wish Brandon hadn't "settled" the love triangle without allowing the characters to work out some of these issues, because I feel like we have a sham happy ending. Then again, now that she's committed to one person, maybe it will be easier for her to become less fractured. 

 

I agree with almost eveything in your post here but the bit i've marked in bold, but the more I think about it the less I feel he is going to leave it. I don't think the triangle will be a thing in book 4 - but then, it wasn't really a thing in book 3 - Adolin and Kaladin weren't competing for Shallan, they were just being themselves. I also would prefer Adolin to remain as he is, he is a wonderful way to show how broken Shallan is because he is just so normal.

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

They don't care about each others wants or needs? Now, that is just plain wrong. On the boat, Kaladin tells her about his desire to go to Thaylen City, he is confident, that Dalinar is in danger and, even though, Shallan is sceptical about it, she thinks about it and actually approaches him to talk about it a few chapters later. Has she ever done something like that for Adolin? I can't remember. Vice versa, Adolin needed to be persuaded to finally do someting Shallan wanted to do (the menagerie visit) and even then he didn't really show any interest in what Shallan is doing, instead wandering away and letting a child play with his Shardplate helmet.

I think is clear you and I are on the same page regarding this so other than to suggest others read your post I won't go into massive detail extolling it's virtues  That said, I just want to clarify your last point.

Agreed that Adolin does need to be persuaded regarding the menagerie but he doesn't wander off then - Kaladin goes to check on the disturbance (caused by Amaram and Dalinar anoucing the reformation of the KR) and that is where the scene ends. Adolin walks off when the three of them are on the plateaus prior to Kaladin and Shallan falling into the chasms. Kaladin mocks Adolin, Adolin brushes it off then walks over to some darkeyed water boys and lets them mess about with his plate, Shallan and Kaladin then briefly discuss the buildings on the Shattered Plains - and Shallan berates Kaladin for deliberately mocking Adolin in a way "he wouldn't understand".

I always found it interesting that she felt the need to protect a prince with literally everything going for him from a darkeyed captain with slave brands. *shakes head* I mean, seriously, she essentially implies that she also believes Kaladin is cleverer than Adolin - which is obviously true, but given her implied classism she shouldn't be quite so ready to make up her mind on this one.

I don't know, I just love  the way they hate each other. Its so entertaining. Anyone else like the scene where they fight before he lets her in to see Dalinar for the first time? Kaladin is one of the few people she's met that she hasn't been able to instantly charm. She also touches him for a very long time in that segment given that they are essentially strangers, of vastly different social backgrounds, having a fight , and surrounded by people. I know she is touchy-feely as a person, but during a fairly venomous argument? I am not sure I buy it  

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Agreed that Adolin does need to be persuaded regarding the menagerie but he doesn't wander off then - Kaladin goes to check on the disturbance (caused by Amaram and Dalinar anoucing the reformation of the KR) and that is where the scene ends. Adolin walks off when the three of them are on the plateaus prior to Kaladin and Shallan falling into the chasms. Kaladin mocks Adolin, Adolin brushes it off then walks over to some darkeyed water boys and lets them mess about with his plate, Shallan and Kaladin then briefly discuss the buildings on the Shattered Plains - and Shallan berates Kaladin for deliberately mocking Adolin in a way "he wouldn't understand".

Oh. You're right. Must have mixed up those two scenes in my head. Anyway, my point stands. He isn't very interested in what Shallan does and enjoys.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I am not clear whether the Shallan of tWoK and WoR is a persona but I am certain that by the end of OB it definitely is. 

She definitely isn't.

The Shallan we see in TWoK is a bit naive, but also smart, artsy, determined, strong, has streaks of pragmatism, but is also capable of compassion.

In WoR, she also became a lot more confident and bold and lost a bit of naivete.

In OB, she basically is just a shade of that person. She is smart, artsy and compassionate. Where have the other traits gone? Well, the determination, confidence and boldness have gone to Veil, while Radiant got all of her pragmatism and strength.

She has broken herself up, so she doesn't feel like, she is Shallan anymore, because that is someone she hates, but she also needed to keep functioning. Which is why Wit tells her to find the woman, who made Veil and Radiant and to forgive her. Which means the whole Shallan and not just the shade that is left from her original personality.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[FuzzyWordsmith]

So, the primary difference between OSDD and DID is that with OSDD, memories are shared between alts, i.e. everyone remembers everything regardless of who's driving. If Shallan had DID, then Shallan and Radiant would have none of Veil's memories and vice versa. Shallan is in fact extremely textbook OSDD. I say this as someone who has undergone almost the exact same symptoms as Shallan, i.e. having alt-based coping mechanisms become sentient and distinct from myself.

I will be honest, Dissociative disorders are really hard to treat at the best of times in the real world. In a world where, as evidenced by Taln, mental illness is treated by locking the patient in a dark room alone, if Shallan wasn't a main character, I would say she is past the point of recovery. Particularly because of Adolin. I don't mean this to disparage him, he has no clue what he's doing. Compassion is important, but the problem is that the execution of the compassion is unwittingly doing more harm than good. Adolin loves the Shallan persona. To truly help, he would have to love Veil and Radiant equally, and treat them the same. It's not even about considering them one person. It's about treating her the same, regardless of which face she has put on. It is about establishing a baseline. Kaladin does that unconsciously, but something I feel should be mentioned is that so does Jasnah. Hoid does as well. That is the sort of compassion she needs. Adolin is trying his best, but it's misplaced.

[Fallen_Ash]

45 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree with almost eveything in your post here but the bit i've marked in bold, but the more I think about it the less I feel he is going to leave it. I don't think the triangle will be a thing in book 4 - but then, it wasn't really a thing in book 3 - Adolin and Kaladin weren't competing for Shallan, they were just being themselves. I also would prefer Adolin to remain as he is, he is a wonderful way to show how broken Shallan is because he is just so normal.

I still (tentatively) ship Shalladin, so I HOPE it's not over, and I don't think Brandon would ignore all these issues we've discussed, but just in case the marriage lasts, I want to hope for the best. 

Quote

Ok, so I fully admit to finding Adolin bland but I don't completely agree that it is because of a lack of page time (although there is certainly an element of that). My own personal take on him is that he is just, well, not that bright. I guess he and I would get on fairly well in real life - after all it is nearly impossible to dislike the man, but honestly, his lack of intellectual curiosity would drive me nuts.

Remember the part when Shallan flashes everyone in Kholinar to make the shame spren appear and nobody understands what she's doing except Kaladin? It's the little things like that that made me think Kaladin would suit her better. His interactions with her show a level of understanding that I think is important for a relationship. I don't want to keep my hopes up, because how Oathbringer left Shallan and Adolin's relationship significantly bummed me out and almost ruined the end of the book for me. I'd rather not have any expectations for any relationship because I don't want any disappointment to cloud my enjoyment of the series. But man, I wish Shalladin was end game. Maybe if she was healthier and able to accept herself—all the parts of herself. 

[PhineasGage]

32 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He isn't very interested in what Shallan does and enjoys.

I agree - can you see them having a prolonged and indepth conversation abut the symbiosis of cremlings and Shalebark? To be fair, I can't see Kaladin and Shallan having that one either, but we have seen him ask himself detailed questions about the world (look at the way he stays with the Parshmen in OB so he can understand them) and I am reasonably sure he asks natural history type questions in tWoK and WoR though I can't bring any to mind at this point. I do think he is more interested in people than natural history though - which makes sense given that he is esentially an embodiment of the windrunner traits of protection and leadership.

18 minutes ago, SLNC said:

She has broken herself up, so she doesn't feel like, she is Shallan anymore, because that is someone she hates, but she also needed to keep functioning. Which is why Wit tells her to find the woman, who made Veil and Radiant and to forgive her. Which means the whole Shallan and not just the shade that is left from her original personality.

I completely see your point and am more than willing to agree I am wrong on this one, I just always feel that there is a possibility that even the Shallan we see in tWoK and WoR is a fragment of a whole but is more whole than she is once she conceptualises Veil and Radiant as separate to herself. Essentially, I basically agree that she was whole before OB but I always like to hedge my bets. 

11 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I will be honest, Dissociative disorders are really hard to treat at the best of times in the real world. In a world where, as evidenced by Taln, mental illness is treated by locking the patient in a dark room alone, if Shallan wasn't a main character, I would say she is past the point of recovery. Particularly because of Adolin. I don't mean this to disparage him, he has no clue what he's doing. Compassion is important, but the problem is that the execution of the compassion is unwittingly doing more harm than good. Adolin loves the Shallan persona. To truly help, he would have to love Veil and Radiant equally, and treat them the same. It's not even about considering them one person. It's about treating her the same, regardless of which face she has put on. It is about establishing a baseline. Kaladin does that unconsciously, but something I feel should be mentioned is that so does Jasnah. Hoid does as well. That is the sort of compassion she needs. Adolin is trying his best, but it's misplaced.

This is such a good synopsis of what is going on! The bit i've emphasised is exactly what I am worried about, but put in a much more coherent way than I ever could. I guess it would take a wordsmith to manage it

7 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

But man, I wish Shalladin was end game. Maybe if she was healthier and able to accept herself—all the parts of herself. 

Hey, we are only half way though this arc and only a third of the way through the series as a whole. There is plenty of time for a Shalladin "endgame". Remember journey before desitination  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I just always feel that there is a possibility that even the Shallan we see in tWoK and WoR is a fragment of a whole but is more whole than she is once she conceptualises Veil and Radiant as separate to herself. Essentially, I basically agree that she was whole before OB but I always like to hedge my bets. 

That is of course a possibility I wouldn't even be surprised, but the Shallan at the end of WoR before the big Truth reveal is probably the best baseline we have.

30 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Compassion is important, but the problem is that the execution of the compassion is unwittingly doing more harm than good. Adolin loves the Shallan persona. To truly help, he would have to love Veil and Radiant equally, and treat them the same. It's not even about considering them one person. It's about treating her the same, regardless of which face she has put on. It is about establishing a baseline.

Yes! This is what is so important. I'm not saying Adolin is to blame for Shallan's state, but he is doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons.

[Harbour he/him]

12 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Hey, we are only half way though this arc and only a third of the way through the series as a whole. There is plenty of time for a Shalladin "endgame". Remember journey before desitination  

Please, dont say that there is so much of the series left because i start to calculate the amount of years we'll spend waiting for them. I'll be close to my 50th when ill read the last book.

[Egomere]

This thread has really gone places and I have great thanks and respect for people posting here because there have been some fantastic posts that have put into wordds how I feel only in terms alot lot better than I could have expressed myself.

Unfortunately I think everything really boils down to us having to wait three years for book 4 to see if anything is waiting for us down the line.

But due to the wonderful carthartic coping method of getting involved in the thread I don't feel half as bad about OB now as I did when first finishing it so Yey!

25 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Please, dont say that there is so much of the series left because i start to calculate the amount of years we'll spend waiting for them. I'll be close to my 50th when ill read the last book.

I will second that request because damnation if it's 3 years per SA book by the time the last one is released I'm going to be Over 50 which is damnation scary...

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Actually, I very much like the Maya arc. I have just re-read it all and it flows really nicely. The fight with the Fused, Maya saving Adolin, thunderclast fight, Maya saving Adolin again, those scenes are pure moments of awesome and made me feel a lot better. I just feel Adolin's character could have been better used early in Part 3: he felt like a comical relied and I felt it clashed with how he must be feeling considering all which is happening.

I personally find myself really liking those fights where poor Adoln gets stabs, crushed, toss around, but still tries to stand with his glowing Maya held into bloody hands. It wouldn't have been the same if he had the ability to heal himself after each blow. I loved those scenes. Wait to see my review of Part 5. I still have to write Part 4 but I want to re-read some parts before I do this.

You do have a point. I guess that the fact that he met Maya as a Deadeye, and the fact that she saved him several times made me expect to see him revive her, and thus, I was disappointed when it didn't happen.

Oh, and @PhineasGage I disagree with your sentiment about Adolin not being bright, and not learning stuff. Actually, Adolin does learn military tactics and history, as well as the sword. It is not that he isn't bright, or that he doesn't want to learn. He learns different things from someone like Renarin. Yes, he isn't as interested in general knowledge as his brother, but he does learn things. And he is an excellent general as well, so he can use his learned skills well.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I disagree with your sentiment about Adolin not being bright, and not learning stuff. Actually, Adolin does learn military tactics and history, as well as the sword. It is not that he isn't bright, or that he doesn't want to learn. He learns different things from someone like Renarin. Yes, he isn't as interested in general knowledge as his brother, but he does learn things. And he is an excellent general as well, so he can use his learned skills well.

It is more about him not being very quick-witted and having trouble getting undertones. Not being bright doesn't mean, that one is stupid or incapable of learning, but rather... that he doesn't immediately get things. It is hard to explain without offending.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I disagree with your sentiment about Adolin not being bright, and not learning stuff. Actually, Adolin does learn military tactics and history, as well as the sword.

So I agree with @SLNC post below yours @Toaster Retribution - I wasn't trying to be offensive. Perhaps Shallan's comment at the end of WoR sums it up best - Adolin is "mentally direct". 

It comes down to personal preference about the type of intelligence a person has. Intelligence is sometimes divided into seven cateogories (although this is a bit controversial - humans don't actually divide up that well, but it is a useful concept when defining the intelligence of a person). These categories are often defined (in no particular order) as:

• Mathematical (logical)
• Musical
• Verbal/linguistic
• Kinaesthetic (intelligence of body.movement)
• Intrapersonal
• Interpersonal
• visual/spatial

Let's break them down quickly:

• mathematic/logical is pretty easy to define - you don't necessarily need to be good at maths (it is a learned construct to an extent) but some people are simply good at following logical structures. Jasnah is a good example of this in the books. 
• Musical - again quite easy to define. People with high musical intelligence will be able to learn music more easily, play it from memory more easily, and learn different instruments more easily. Depending on what other intelligence facets they score highly in tends to cause them to lean more to certain aspects of music - for example, composers of neoclassical music are statistically more likely to score highly on logic than linguistics, but lyricists tends to score higher on linguistics.
• Verbal/linguistic - these are the people who do well on verbal reasoning tests. They tend to be good spellers, have a natural 'feel' for grammar, and are more likely to enjoy hobbies that give them a reason to use their verbal intellect such as reading or making arguments (eg in a court of law). I would guess that everyone here has a high verbal intellect. Statistically speaking, people with a high verbal intellect also tend to find other languages easier to learn, although again, this is partly reliant on decent teaching/exposure at a young age. Jasnah also likely has a high verbal score given the way she phrases herself. Shallan definitely does, although her intelligence is still somewhat unformed and immature - she needs a few years for her intelligence to crystallise
• Kinaesthetic - this is the ablity to learn a physical skill. Atheletes tend to score highly in this. It is the ability to understand where your body is in space and how to move it to perform the action you want in the best possible manner. A good test of your kinaesthetic ability is to try and learn a new physical skill such as juggling, or uni-cycling for example. Some people can pick it up really quickly others (like me for instance) can barely be sure of catching one ball thrown in the air. These people also tend to be better at watching someone else do something physical and then reproducing it. It is one reason atheletes often benefit watching videos of their performances. Kaladin definitely has this, although it is currently most aimed at his ability to use the spear but he does pick up other physical skills quickly too.
• Intrapersonal - this is the ability to have self-awareness, to understand how one is feeling and why. It is an undervalued element of intelligence. I would suggest Adolin actually performs quite highly on this because he is able to rationalise ideas about himself and his actions quite quickly such as confronting Dalinar about his visions in tWoK but also then accepting that he maybe went about it in the wrong way. These are the people who apologise quickly and easily for faults they believe they have made. 
• Interpersonal - the ability to relate to other people. This is essentially empathy but also includes other aspects such as compassion for others. Most of our main characters score highly on this. Dalinar did not when he was younger though he has learned it as a skill later in life.
• Visual/spatial - this is the intelligence type related to understanding images and concepts that have 2 or 3 dimensional elements. A good example is someone who can go to a city and understand the layout very quickly. They can create a mental map of a place and make their way around without additional guidance. My So is like this and literally never gets lost. Its very annoying. I suggest Dalinar and Adolin do well on this one because they understand the spatial elements of a battlefield - we see Adolin figure out where he in side a building based on his mental map alone in WoR. 

So I hope this is clear, intelligence is something that is innate but its use is dependent on access to appropriate means of learning the skills that learn in. Kaladin could not prove kinaesthetic ability if he's been a farmer. Jasnah could not have shown off her logic if she never learned to read other people's ideas. It also changes over time - like everything else in the human body, "use it or lose it". The more you use something, the better you get at using it. but the less you use it, the more it atrophies. 

My point here is that being "bright" in my local lingo, usually refers to the more "intellectual" types of intelligence - ie verbal  and maths - Adolin likely scores quite highly on the other forms. It doesn't mean he isn't clever, but it does mean that his strengths lie in areas that are more related to his own experiences rather than abstracts. In contrast, Shallan is likely to score well in visual/spatial and verbal. Jasnah, being the incredible thing she is probably scores well in all areas, but particularly highly in logic. 

 

Anyway, sorry to anyone who has just had the pants bored off them. I find this kind of thing fascinating - also its going to come up in my end of year exams so its worth my while to revisit!

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@PhineasGage that was a great post, very interesting to read! I understand you much better now, and I agree with you. I would suggest though that Jasnah is a bit weaker on the Interpersonal side. She even admits so in WoK if I recall correctly. 

[PhineasGage]

11 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I would suggest though that Jasnah is a bit weaker on the Interpersonal side. She even admits so in WoK if I recall correctly. 

Good point. She is very clever so probably still scores highly - people like her tend to be "universally intelligent" but I do agree that her interpersonal skills are likely her weakest aspect by some distance.

One thing I didn't point out is that it is unusual for a person to score well on only one field. Most people have a couple of strong areas. It is also usual for someone with a "high IQ" to score well on all aspects but have particular skill in only a couple of areas. The old concept of the "savant" - eg a person who scores only very well on music but poorly on other scores is actually not that likely - usually people who appear this way actually score well on at least 1 other aspect of intelligence but it either hasn't been tested properly (we only started valuing the scores of the "emotional intelligences" relatively recently so didn't test them beforehand) or our tests lack the nuance to catch all ways in which an intelligence might present. For example, an child with an intellectual disability (defined as an IQ of less than 70) may be good at music and interpersonal skills but because they lack the language skills necessary, it may be exceedingly difficult to assess their interpersonal intelligence. This is the sort of child who might well be excellent at spotting if someone is feeling sad then going and helping console them, even if they lack the verbal skills to understand why that person is sad, but will still score badly on the test because our tests are crude tools most of the time.

As a point, the tests for childhood IQ such as the WISC, are so much fun to do (says the 30-something year old adult.....)

[FuzzyWordsmith]

So, I just went through some choice sections of OB again. Something is definitely off about this romance business. I just read chapter 94, a small bottle. It was beautiful, solidifies Renarin as one of my favourite characters, and makes me feel for Dalinar. Why is that relevant? Because it showcases Sanderson's skill as an author. The slipshod nature of the romance plot and the magnificence of the action climax and depth of Dalinar's sequence are presenting a more and more glaring incongruity. It makes no sense for something to be handled so poorly while so much of the rest of the book is so good. Part of me wants to believe that it's just Sanderson not being very good at romance. But it just seems like this was on purpose. That the hints and the shotgun conclusion was an intentional disparity. 

[PhineasGage]

13 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, I just went through some choice sections of OB again. Something is definitely off about this romance business. I just read chapter 94, a small bottle. It was beautiful, solidifies Renarin as one of my favourite characters, and makes me feel for Dalinar. Why is that relevant? Because it showcases Sanderson's skill as an author.

I just re-read this. I must have read it so quickly the first couple of times I missed it, but it just had me tear up. I don't want to clog up the thread (again) discussing this chapter - although perhaps it should have a new thread made? I do agree though that if he can take Dalinar who is a monster at this point in the books and turn it round this quickly with this much skill making both him and Renarin look sympathetic and make the scenario believable, do we really think the shotgun nature of the romance end is likely?

You mentioned the disparity and I agree - you could almost say that Dalinar's realisation about "hating" his sons and the clarity and alacrity with which he accepts it is a striking mirror to Shallan trying to suppress her self-awareness and take a simpler but ultimately less safe path. Dalinar knows how he wants to end up (ie not hating his sons and being a good and honorable man) but doesn't know how to achieve it. Shallan in contrast, knows what she wants to do (ie marry Adolin) but doesn't really know how she wants to end up as a result - she doesn't seem to be actively trying to prevent herself dissociating.

As a side point to the wedding, I know we've talked about this briefly but don't think it was mentioned directly. Shallan changes her mood and affect in a sudden moment which to me suggests a very clear moment of dissociation. Moods rarely change that quickly or dramatically. If it had happened when her brothers came in I would accept it as a possible cause, but it didn't.

[Dreamstorm]

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

Another thing I think might be foreshadowing:

When Shallan and the others jump from the Honor's Path to find the Oathgate in Shadesmar, she locked hands with Adolin and Pattern.

Could her clinging to Adolin and thus keeping up her mask compromise her bond with Pattern?

I’m of the opinion that her bond with Pattern is very close to fully breaking at the end of OB. They used to talk all the time about everything, yet she interacts very little with him in part 4 and 5 and he seems almost catatonic at times. After her big moment of choosing Adolin through the end of the book, we have one line from Pattern (“This is a good you Shallan”) in the last chapter. We have an extended scene about Shallan’s supposedly ecstatic thoughts on getting married and her brothers’ return and we get one line from Pattern (emphasizing her fractured nature)? He used be a very chatty, curious spren. I’m of the opinion their bond is very, very frayed due to Shallan not being honest with herself...

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I’m of the opinion their bond is very, very frayed due to Shallan not being honest with herself...

That is my line of thinking too... After all, Lightweaver need to seek self-awareness to progress and we have seen a failed one in a WoR epigraph.

Quote

 

Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain.

 

[PhineasGage]

49 minutes ago, SLNC said:

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I’m of the opinion their bond is very, very frayed due to Shallan not being honest with herself...

That is my line of thinking too... After all, Lightweaver need to seek self-awareness to progress and we have seen a failed one in a WoR epigraph.

Quote

 

Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain.

You know, I'd completely missed this and I really don't know how. Initially now I thought, well it isn't Shallan's book, but we see loads of Syl but Pattern has gone very quiet. What happened to the spren who shouted No Mating! or the one who was talkative about human anatomy? Where are the conversations between any of Shallan's alts and Pattern? She seems to have forgotten about him and that he wants to learn everything he can about humanity - it was why he came to the physical realm in the first place

I feel really bad for him  Syl and Kaladin only seem to get closer but Shallan and Pattern are growing further apart. I am sure it is an indication of her worsening self-awareness.  I have started to believe that the KR progression is not completely stepwise. Obviously there is a massive burst of power as an oath is sworn - or at least new skills "unlock", but between oaths there is still a gradual improvement in skill and even access to skill. On top of that there is a gradual realisation of the oaths required next. We know something odd happened to Shallan when she nearly killed Pattern when she was a child, but what if all Radiants can kinda go back and forward, even if it is just in the space between oaths. Perhaps slow/gradual changes in behavior won't cause immediate death of a spren, but it will cause them to go off like Syl did when Kaladin was imprisoned and thinking about letting Elokhar be assassinated. Shallan seems almost to have hidden her previous truth and perhaps, because her dissociation is gradually worsening she is actually starting to negate it. It wouldn't kill Pattern necessarily because she hasn't blocked it completely but she has blocked it enough.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

it will cause them to go off like Syl did when Kaladin was imprisoned

Side note: I love the symmetry with Kaladin going berserk when Syl was imprisoned. Both very different reactions, but just as emotional.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC