Popular Post Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 4, 2017 Popular Post Posted November 4, 2017 Adolin's in a bad spot, I think we can all agree. He cannot move forward without hurting his house in some way, by either revealing himself as the killer or failing to catch the murderer of a Highprince, giving evidence that Dalinar is incapable of protecting the city he has just discovered. But I have a theory of how Adolin might respond to this in a way that just might be politically savvy enough to work. He admits it. Point blank. He calls for a meeting of the Highprinces to say he's solved the murder. Once they've arrived, he calmly announces that he has not only figured out who killed Sadeas, but has a confession. He then explains that he killed Sadeas. He explains how he ran into Sadeas in the tower alone, and how Sadeas began immediately to tell Adolin about the lies he would begin spreading about house Kholin, about Urithiru. He'll explain that when he asked Sadeas why, Sadeas told him that it was the way things had to be, that it was Dalinar or him. Finally, he will tell them that Sadeas told him of his intent to take everything from his father and his house, as he has tried to do before and had almost killed him in the process. In short, Adolin will tell the truth. Quote “Why?” Adolin asked, stepping up to him. “Why are you like this, Sadeas?” “Because,” Sadeas said with a sigh, “it has to happen. You can’t have an army with two generals, son. Your father and I, we’re two old whitespines who both want a kingdom. It’s him or me. We’ve been pointed that way since Gavilar died.” “It doesn’t have to be that way.” “It does. Your father will never trust me again, Adolin, and you know it.” Sadeas’s face darkened. “I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.” Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1067). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 1 Adolin will then let Chaos ensue and all of the Highprinces bluster, the perfect image of calm until Dalinar, feeling betrayed, will ask him why he would take such a drastic step. Adolin will tell him that, according to Alethi tradition, he took this as both an insult and declaration of war on his house, and that under the authority granted him by the boon of the king he engaged Sadeas in a duel to the death. I think that he will then issue a challenge to Amaram, and that if Amaram thinks Adolin went against justice, for Amaram to take up the cause of House Sadeas in the dueling arena and meet him in battle. I think this will appeal to Dalinar, who will be conflicted. It will allow a testing of crimes for both Amaram and Adolin while not testing his own personal loyalties or sense of honor. I also think this will not go well for Adolin. Amaram has Oathrbringer now, and I know that Brandon has said that in WoK prime he had considered making Amaram a duel wielding Shardbearer. This gives him not only the means to do so but the opportunity to show that he's a force to be reckoned with. Amaram won't of course kill Adolin, but if he leaves him without shards and leaves house Kholin humiliated after all of Adolin's victories it would go a long way towards deepening the conflict inside of Urithiru. Plus it would be a really storming cool fight to watch. 17
Guest Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 It is a great theory. It works well with Adolin being the background character: there is a consequence, but it is not really relevant to his character. It doesn't create turmoil or anything, or character crisis, not waves, no nothing, but it resolves the murder. I can't say this is my favorite outcome, but I do find it a very plausible outcome. It is a very likely outcome I would even say.
AngelDeath Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 (edited) I really like this theory. And even tho i like Adolin more then Amaram i would still love to see Adolin get taken down a peg. Edited November 4, 2017 by AngelDeath misspelling
Aleksiel Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 If Adolin confesses, I doubt he will lie and saying he considers it the duel granted by the king's boon is a lie.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 4, 2017 Author Posted November 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said: If Adolin confesses, I doubt he will lie and saying he considers it the duel granted by the king's boon is a lie. That's the justification, not the rationale. It's a very Alethi tradition to attack those who insult or attack your house. Sadeas has done so repeatedly. In my op, I'm stipulating that Adolin is forthcoming about how the original situation went down, Sadeas provoked Adolin by calling them liars and saying that he was going to take everything from his house. It was an insult an a declaration of war, so Adolin attacked in Alethi tradition, which is the rationale at the time. However, he presents that he is also justified in his actions because he has the author of the king's boon and he invokes it in that instance, and also offers to duel Amaram to offer satisfaction to house Sadeas and for Amaram's crimes. Does that help clear up what I'm trying to say? He's taking responsibility, but not claiming guilt under Alethi tradition with retroactive justification.
Aleksiel Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 @Fifth of Daybreak I understand, but I do not see Adolin saying this. If he confesses, he will also take responsibility without trying to absolve himself. Navani or Shallan might use the justification you describe, but not Adolin. That's just not way I read his character. 2
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 4, 2017 Author Posted November 4, 2017 Gotcha, thanks for chiming in!
Starla Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 @Fifth of Daybreak I like your theory because it provides an outcome for Adolin that doesn't involve exile or execution. My main concern is there were no witnesses, so it's Adolin's word alone. I don't feel like Ialai will let him off the hook that easy. She seems ruthless, and if Adolin confesses I think she would try to get the maximum punishment. A duel with Amaram doesn't seem like a very severe punishment since Adolin has a good chance of winning. Amaram hasn't had his blade(s) very long, and Adolin is a highly skilled duelist. Even if Adolin does lose his blade and plate, he can probably obtain others fairly easily. I don't recall the exact whereabouts of all the shards he won in WOR, but there is probably a spare Kholin shardblade (or honorblade) lying around that he can use to win back more shards.
Siaun Sanche she/her Posted November 5, 2017 Posted November 5, 2017 On 11/4/2017 at 10:24 AM, Fifth of Daybreak said: Adolin will tell him that, according to Alethi tradition, he took this as both an insult and declaration of war on his house, and that under the authority granted him by the boon of the king he engaged Sadeas in a duel to the death. I don't think this is how duels work. Dueling contracts are witnessed before a judge. The time, place, and stakes are pre-established in public. And everybody knows that Sadeas didn't want to duel any time soon, and wouldn't agree to an impromptu duel to the death in an Urithiru stairwell. 2
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Author Posted November 6, 2017 36 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said: I don't think this is how duels work. Dueling contracts are witnessed before a judge. The time, place, and stakes are pre-established in public. And everybody knows that Sadeas didn't want to duel any time soon, and wouldn't agree to an impromptu duel to the death in an Urithiru stairwell. Fair point.
Patrick Star Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) I'm not sure how allowed this is, but I highly doubt that Adolin's going to confess. I'll put the rest of this in a spoiler tag, just in case. On Reddit, someone who read Oathbringer early said "I was actually really pleased with Adolin's plot in Oathbringer!! What an upstanding guy." Not a lot to go on, but that sounds super sarcastic to me, almost as if Adolin lets somebody else take the blame for it. Edited November 6, 2017 by Patrick Star
StormingTexan he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 ^^ I'm guessing there it sounds more sarcastic within the rest of the context because it doesn't from what you posted. I like the theory above except what others have said regarding the duel justification. Honestly did Adolin really have an alternative besides killing Sadeas after his attempted murder and implied threats? I think it is a reasonable argument for pretty much everyone except Ialai who will not rest until her husbands work is done.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Author Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) I'm actually going to revise my opinion again. This excerpt is pretty clear-cut. I think my theory is still plausible. Quote Dalinar turned his attention to Sadeas, speaking very softly, very pointedly. “Sadeas. Surely I did not just hear you openly—before the king—call my son useless. Surely you would not say that, as such an insult would demand that I summon my Blade and seek your blood. Shatter the Vengeance Pact. Cause the king’s two greatest allies to kill one another. Surely you would not have been that foolish. Surely I misheard.” Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (pp. 227-228). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Just because he called Renarin useless. Sadeas says that it's Dalinar or him, that he's going to take everything from him. It's an open declaration of war. I interpret that as cause to seek blood if Dalinar can claim it in this situation. Granted, the important exception is that here it was in front of witnesses and before the king, but that's why Adolin is also justified by his boon granted to him by the King back from WoR. Edited November 6, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 1
Siaun Sanche she/her Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Just because he called Renarin useless. Sadeas says that it's Dalinar or him, that he's going to take everything from him. It's an open declaration of war. I interpret that as cause to seek blood if Dalinar can claim it in this situation. Well, Dalinar does say that it would "shatter the Vengeance Pact", which means that he's not talking about about a sanctioned duel, he's talking about murdering Sadeas.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 45 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said: Well, Dalinar does say that it would "shatter the Vengeance Pact", which means that he's not talking about about a sanctioned duel, he's talking about murdering Sadeas. "Such an insult would demand that I summon my blade and seek your blood." Taken separately, this line sounds to me like Sadeas insulted Dalinar's honor in some way. The usage of "demand" is probably the most important word in that paragraph. Honor duels are not necessarily sanctioned, but would be seen as necessary by a nobleman. 1
Siaun Sanche she/her Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Taken separately, this line sounds to me like Sadeas insulted Dalinar's honor in some way. The usage of "demand" is probably the most important word in that paragraph. Honor duels are not necessarily sanctioned, but would be seen as necessary by a nobleman. I don't know. When Adolin is thinking about killing Sadeas in Chapter 50, he seems pretty certain that it would be illegal and lead to his death or exile. He doesn't think, "Oh, the light-eyes will generally believe that I had no choice but to answer his insults with violence, and thus I'll be able to go about my business." And, to the OP's argument, I'm not aware of anywhere where the king's boon is understood to be a general license to murder Sadeas when he's been particularly insufferable. I think it's quite possible that, had Dalinar attacked Sadeas in that moment, other brighteyes would have been sympathetic to his response. Just as assuredly, I'm sure that a lot of people will be sympathetic to Adolin should he confess what happened. But I don't think that there's a legal argument that would save him from formal punishment.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 Just now, Harry the Heir said: When Adolin is thinking about killing Sadeas in Chapter 50, he seems pretty certain that it would be illegal and lead to his death or exile. That could lead back to what Fifth of Daybreak said about the insult happening in front of the King. Witnesses are important, even in an honor duel. But my response was entirely dealing with what Dalinar said, and nothing to do with Adolin. It's an argument of whether attacking someone for impugning your honor is considered an honor duel or a murder. It might not automatically be murder in the eyes of those around there, and that was what I was trying to point out.
Guest Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) On the Tor.com non-spoiler review, they posted this: Quote There are bit players who now have complex, three dimensional narratives, and others who fade to the back, to make room for their compatriots. Now I am DEAD worried Adolin is one of the characters who fades into the back. Of course, they don't say it, but just reading it made me fear. The 17th Shard review also make me fear, they say some paths readers will dislike. Am I going to like this book? I am so dead anxious I won't Edited November 6, 2017 by maxal
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Author Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, maxal said: Am I going to like this book? I am so dead anxious I won't *Pats you on the back* There, their, they're. It's ok. Edited November 7, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 2
Guest Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: *Pat's you on the back* There, their, they're. It's ok. Thanks I swear this book is causing me a great deal of anxiety 11 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I'm actually going to revise my opinion again. This excerpt is pretty clear-cut. I think my theory is still plausible. Just because he called Renarin useless. Sadeas says that it's Dalinar or him, that he's going to take everything from him. It's an open declaration of war. I interpret that as cause to seek blood if Dalinar can claim it in this situation. Granted, the important exception is that here it was in front of witnesses and before the king, but that's why Adolin is also justified by his boon granted to him by the King back from WoR. I forgot to reply to this. The situation in between Dalinar/Sadeas is very different than the Adolin/Sadeas's situation for the mere reason Dalinar is a Highprince and as such, he is allowed to demand Sadeas to duel him, for honor. Adolin is not allowed to make the same demands which is why he had to trap Sadeas into being forced to fight him. Open declaration of war or not, Adolin just doesn't have the rank to make demands out of Sadeas.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Author Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, maxal said: Open declaration of war or not, Adolin just doesn't have the rank to make demands out of Sadeas. A visual representation of how my opinion has changed on this thread. Well put. https://m.imgur.com/gallery/WGL2dWb Edited November 7, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 1
Bort he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to be Shallan that works out that Adolin is the killer. Pieces of the story she picks up from Adolin will connect with pieces of the story she has picked up as Veil or Brightness Radiant. What will happen next though? Will she do the right thing and turn him in, or will she help him craft some lies to help him avoid his fate? And if she does that, how will he react to it?
Salkara Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Bort said: I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to be Shallan that works out that Adolin is the killer. Pieces of the story she picks up from Adolin will connect with pieces of the story she has picked up as Veil or Brightness Radiant. What will happen next though? Will she do the right thing and turn him in, or will she help him craft some lies to help him avoid his fate? And if she does that, how will he react to it? Another possibility... Naln arrives in Urithuru, takes one look at Adolin, and says, "murderer."
Scriptorian he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, Salkara said: Another possibility... Naln arrives in Urithuru, takes one look at Adolin, and says, "murderer." Except he has to say it like this: Spoiler 4
+ElephantEarwax he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Scriptorian said: Except he has to say it like this: Hide contents Gif is broken.
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