[OB] I can't think of a title, but SPOILER ALERT

[Shadowrunner]

Is it possible that like there is the 10 voidbringer equivalents of the knights radiants(I think Brandon confirmed this?), there are 10 cultivation equivalents? because there are 3 pictures of gods in the chamber that shallan renarin adolin and bridge 4 fights Re-shepnir, and since the radiants are of honor, and the voidbringers and all the other things are of odium, it only makes sense that there is a cultivation equivalent

[Leyrann]

I believe that the Surges and the Knights are actually a combination of Honor and Cultivation, but don't quote me on that.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Leyrann is most likely correct. I don't know if it is outright confirmed, but Cultivation and Honor teamworking to create the Radiants is more or less seen as a fact by people on here.

[Jigar]

What if the yellow spren which kaladin found is of cultivation? Neither honor nor void.Her actions aren't really negative .She is helping parshmen group get somewhere.Did Syl confirmed that yellow spren is of odium?I think she says that the other spren is important not necessarily evil.Might have to 're read first few chapters.

Most likely knights are product of both honor and cultivation as lift was specifically chosen by what I believe is spren of cultivation(or maybe cultivation herself?) and she is KR.But it would be 10 times more interesting if cultivation had its own set of knights.Then we will have 3D chess being played in Roshar.Otherwise 2v1 sounds easy.

[Metalrift]

The surges are inherent to Roshar and possibly even the cosmere, while surgebinding is generally seen as being of Honour and Cultivation (although there is debate over this). I believe that surgebinding is of both Honour and Cultivation because it comes from spren who are of both Honour and Cultivation.

Therefore, as the ten types of spren that grant surgebinding are of both H&C, the radiants are not of Honour alone but of Honour and Cultivation. If this is the case there are not ten of Honour and ten of Cultivation but ten of both.

The rear endsheet of the Way of Kings is a diagram related to Voidbinding, a magic that draws from Odium. It is similar to the diagram related to surgebinding, so it seems likely that there are ten kinds of voidbinding and that they use the surges in some way. This conclusion is also supported by the Ars Arcanum of Words of Radiance and some WoB. I theorise that voidbringers are splinters, either partially or wholly, of Odium. In this case, as voidbinding will involve the spren of Odium, there may be up to 10 kinds of voidbringer corresponding to spren of the surgebinders.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Metalrift

[Leyrann]

57 minutes ago, Jigar said:

What if the yellow spren which kaladin found is of cultivation? Neither honor nor void.Her actions aren't really negative .She is helping parshmen group get somewhere.Did Syl confirmed that yellow spren is of odium?I think she says that the other spren is important not necessarily evil.Might have to 're read first few chapters.

Most likely knights are product of both honor and cultivation as lift was specifically chosen by what I believe is spren of cultivation(or maybe cultivation herself?) and she is KR.But it would be 10 times more interesting if cultivation had its own set of knights.Then we will have 3D chess being played in Roshar.Otherwise 2v1 sounds easy.

It's not 2v1 though. Honor is dead.

[hoser he/him]

 

Quote

 

Interview: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Table Q&A (Verbatim)

Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or are they all the same one?

Rhandric

If you assume the surges are all one.

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Rhandric

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.

 

If you look at the surgebinding table, you have five male Heralds of Honor-y things on top and five female Heralds of more Cultivation-y things on the bottom.  Less obviously, cognitive realm related powers are on the left and physical realm powers are on the right.

Edited November 3, 2017 by hoser

[Leyrann]

What table do you mean? Also, what decides wheter a Surge would be more Honor related or more Cultivation related?

[Kered he/him]

I think it was Honor and Cultivation that chose the Heralds then the Heralds(with a big push from Ishar) founded the KR. So it could be logical in saying that the fully sapient Unmade marshaled voidspren to give peeps voidsurging in order to combat the KR. Or the 10 Deaths could be Odiums way of fighting the KR, and the Unmade to fight the Heralds. 

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

Roshar had stormlight and spren before the shattering of Adonalism. I think that the old magic is the original magic pre shattering, probably related to Dawnsingers. My theory is that Honor and Cultivation created ( or  converted) higher spren from 10 existing forces. When Odium arrived he copied this and created 10 (or 9) of his own. 

I agree the differences will be on one side a spren with investiture from Honor and Cultivation in some mix vs a similar spren  with investiture from just Odium.

[hoser he/him]

3 hours ago, Leyrann said:

What table do you mean? Also, what decides wheter a Surge would be more Honor related or more Cultivation related?

The double eye of the almighty:from tWoK. 

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/File:Surgebinders.jpg

It can seem a little arbitrary, but the top half surges are more physical and involved with bonding, hence more related to Honor.  The lower half surges are more about life and change, so more related to Cultivation.  The orders are the big circles and each order has the two adjacent surges (small circles).  In theory the topmost spren like Syl are mostly Honor, where Pattern is more Cultivation.

2 hours ago, Kered said:

I think it was Honor and Cultivation that chose the Heralds then the Heralds(with a big push from Ishar) founded the KR. So it could be logical in saying that the fully sapient Unmade marshaled voidspren to give peeps voidsurging in order to combat the KR. Or the 10 Deaths could be Odiums way of fighting the KR, and the Unmade to fight the Heralds. 

Basically, but I think it's more complicated.  I think H+C chose the Heralds before Honor established the Oathpact with them.  Then the H&C spren copied the Herald's swords/powers to bond with people and become Surgebinders (Nohadon's time).  Ishar and the other Heralds then constrained the Surgebinders to become KR. 

Adonalsium had established the Highstorms and the listeners bonded with quad-gendered spren long before.  After H+C came, then Odium came and invested in some beings, at least some of which were Listeners (are listeners the same as Dawnsingers?), which became the Unmade. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by hoser

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, hoser said:

The double eye of the almighty:from tWoK. 

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/File:Surgebinders.jpg

It can seem a little arbitrary, but the top half surges are more physical and involved with bonding, hence more related to Honor.  The lower half surges are more about life and change, so more related to Cultivation.  The orders are the big circles and each order has the two adjacent surges (small circles).  In theory the topmost spren like Syl are mostly Honor, where Pattern is more Cultivation.

This theory goes wrong with the Ars Arcanum of WoK though, where it is said that

"A Basic Lashing involved revoking a being's or object's spiritual gravitational bond to the planet below, instead temporarily linking that being or object to a different object or direction,"

which establishes that Gravitation is at least related to the Spiritual Realm. I personally believe that the Surges should actually be divided in 3x3+1, with three each of Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual Surges, and one Hybrid Surge that uses several of the Realms to do things. This also makes it easier to fit the system in the same core as the Metallic Arts, which have this division more pronounced (the four quadrants are even literally called by those names in Feruchemy).

Also, as for the Cognitive vs Physical divison you talked about, I would argue that only Transportation, Transformation and maybe Illumination and Progression could be considered Cognitive powers, which means that Physical is at least 6-4 dominant, which wouldn't really make sense with the symmetry that at least I would expect.

[Reborn radiant]

Edgedancer spoiler

 

Spoiler

Isn't wyndlecultivationspren? Isn't that pretty much a confirmation that surgebindig is from both honor and cultivation?

 

[hoser he/him]

5 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

This theory goes wrong with the Ars Arcanum of WoK though, where it is said that

"A Basic Lashing involved revoking a being's or object's spiritual gravitational bond to the planet below, instead temporarily linking that being or object to a different object or direction,"

which establishes that Gravitation is at least related to the Spiritual Realm. I personally believe that the Surges should actually be divided in 3x3+1, with three each of Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual Surges, and one Hybrid Surge that uses several of the Realms to do things. This also makes it easier to fit the system in the same core as the Metallic Arts, which have this division more pronounced (the four quadrants are even literally called by those names in Feruchemy).

Also, as for the Cognitive vs Physical divison you talked about, I would argue that only Transportation, Transformation and maybe Illumination and Progression could be considered Cognitive powers, which means that Physical is at least 6-4 dominant, which wouldn't really make sense with the symmetry that at least I would expect.

Sorry.  I misunderstood your original question.  I thought you were asking out of curiosity rather than tendentiousness.  I like that Brandon systematizes the magic, but I don't take realmatic theory too seriously.  The point was, as far as this thread was concerned, that the ten orders of knights and their corresponding spren are H and/or C, not 10 Honor Knights/spren and 10 separate corresponding knights/spren for Cultivation.  I think we agree on that?

 

Quote

 

Interview: Oct 12th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

Question

Syl identifies herself as an honorspren.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren? [Pause]

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I think you could say that he would.

Question

By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Alaskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a cultivation spren.

 

Quote

Interview: Mar 17th, 2012

Writing for Charity Signing (Verbatim)

Question

A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

Brandon Sanderson

I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

 

[PunSpren he/him]

The pictures in that chamber are not confirmed to be 3 gods, 2 certainly seem to be depictions of Cultivation and Honor, the third is unknown, but bears a striking resemblance to a passage in Elantris depicting world hopping. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I feel like Khriss's words in the Ars Arcanum at least tangentially supports the OP. Emphasis mine.

Quote

I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different.

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Calderis he/him]

On the nature of the surges and the Realms... Trying to break them up into different realms is problematic. 

Gravitation creates a physical effect through altering a spiritual connection. Lightweaving manipulates a physical waveform to much a Cognitive image. Transportation can either transistion between the Realms or (if it is capable of this) teleportation within the physical realm. 

Transportation is the one that is remarkably difficult to qualify. It transitions between the Realms. If it can be used for direct point to point transportation it has to make use of the spiritual realm though. The Cognitive Realm has a warping effect on distance, but it is still location dependant. I think teleportation would require using the spiritual Realm, the only location independent Realm, as a doorway. This would effectively be "folding space" transitioning from one point to another using a Spiritual gateway, without truly entering the Spiritual Realm. 

Abrasion, adhesion and division appear physical, but without knowing the realmatics behind how the function... 

Soulcasting creates a physical change through Cognitive manipulation. 

My point is that I don't believe any of the surges are constrained to a single realm. 

[ScavellTane]

2 hours ago, PunSpren said:

The pictures in that chamber are not confirmed to be 3 gods, 2 certainly seem to be depictions of Cultivation and Honor, the third is unknown, but bears a striking resemblance to a passage in Elantris depicting world hopping. 

It would depend highly on where the symbols are placed relative to each other.

[bo.montier]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

It would depend highly on where the symbols are placed relative to each other.

I sure hope we get a full picture of this in the book! A 2 page spread of the room would be awesome

[PunSpren he/him]

2 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

It would depend highly on where the symbols are placed relative to each other.

Im not sure what your referring to.

 

I was commenting on the passage below

Quote

A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. Who would have thought to find pagan symbols in the home of the Knights Radiant?

Nothing about symbols there?

[Leyrann]

23 hours ago, hoser said:

Sorry.  I misunderstood your original question.  I thought you were asking out of curiosity rather than tendentiousness.  I like that Brandon systematizes the magic, but I don't take realmatic theory too seriously.  The point was, as far as this thread was concerned, that the ten orders of knights and their corresponding spren are H and/or C, not 10 Honor Knights/spren and 10 separate corresponding knights/spren for Cultivation.  I think we agree on that?

That won't be a problem, I think.

Also I gave you an upvote because I honestly don't understand why someone would have downvoted your post.

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

On the nature of the surges and the Realms... Trying to break them up into different realms is problematic. 

Gravitation creates a physical effect through altering a spiritual connection. Lightweaving manipulates a physical waveform to much a Cognitive image. Transportation can either transistion between the Realms or (if it is capable of this) teleportation within the physical realm. 

Transportation is the one that is remarkably difficult to qualify. It transitions between the Realms. If it can be used for direct point to point transportation it has to make use of the spiritual realm though. The Cognitive Realm has a warping effect on distance, but it is still location dependant. I think teleportation would require using the spiritual Realm, the only location independent Realm, as a doorway. This would effectively be "folding space" transitioning from one point to another using a Spiritual gateway, without truly entering the Spiritual Realm. 

Abrasion, adhesion and division appear physical, but without knowing the realmatics behind how the function... 

Soulcasting creates a physical change through Cognitive manipulation. 

My point is that I don't believe any of the surges are constrained to a single realm. 

Agree at some points, disagree at some others here, most notably Transportation (where I believe I actually have a pretty good idea how it works from Realmatic Theory, though of course I might be wrong). Either way, I'm gonna read Oathbringer first, then go over any additional information in there, and then I'm going to give classifying the Surges and explaining their mechanisms a second try.

[hoser he/him]

12 hours ago, Leyrann said:

That won't be a problem, I think.

Also I gave you an upvote because I honestly don't understand why someone would have downvoted your post.

I think I was annoyed at being told my theory was wrong and that I had tried to explain my not very thought-through (due largely to indifference) realmatic theory to someone who cared and had thought more about it.  So using the word "tendentious," while maybe justifiable on threadjacking concerns, was boorish, IMO.  Anyway, I'm sorry and wish I had responded more positively.  Your post was interesting and we find this stuff fun.  

I thought the quotes were on point, though. 

I wonder whether I should edit the post to be how I wish I had responded or leave it there as a badge of shame.

And thanks!

PS: In light of your enthusiasm, I am starting to think about your points about the surges.  I'm concerned about threadjacking relative to the OP, but maybe I shouldn't be, given the title.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by hoser

[Shadowrunner]

I know this is much later but i just realized that there is the Old Magic on Roshar, maybe that Cultivation's equivalent of surge binding, because doesn't Cultivation monitor the nightwatcher's use of it?

 

[Cosmé he/him]

My thinking is that:

Surges are forces of nature. In Roshar, the local shards have made Adhesion, Gravitation, Friction, etc. available. Shards on other worlds have made Magnetism (Iron/Steel) and similar forces available to their occupants. The more cognitive or spiritual-oriented forces like Transportation or Allomantic Pewter do not have direct parallels in the real/earth world, but are forces of nature in the Cosmere universe just like friction or gravity.

The Radiants access the surges strictly through Honor. There are ten orders of Radiant, and ten is Honor’s number. Radiants can only see the present, not the future (exception: Renarin, I’ll get to him), because Honor can’t see well into the future, but Cultivation can. Their principles include Journey before Desination, which is contrary to Cultivation’s idea of improving things. To Cultivation, Destination is more important than Journey. I see Taravangian as her primary “Champion,” since the diagram was made under her influence, and it suggests destroying the Radiants. 

The Old Magic is Cultivation’s magic system, and focuses on improving things, rather than binding, unbinding, or rebinding things. We haven’t seen it much, except through boons. But it’s very powerful. Look at what Taravangian can do. Cultivation seems to hold it close to herself.

Voidbinding is Odium’s magic system, which enables access to the forces of nature. Odium makes available nine surges, many of which may be the same as Honor’s, since we’re talking about the laws of physics in the Cosmere here, but some may be different for all I know. For example, he could have chosen a different set of physical laws to make available, or imposed different restrictions.

Unmade seem to be very powerful spren (or other being) that can manipulate the laws of physics in a specially-defined way. The Thrill is basically a TLR-level rioter from Mistborn. They both probably pull on the same Cosmere strings. 

Shardblades are dead Radiant spren blades of course, so they are of Honor

Honorblades may be Honor godmetal. They have Honor in their name, there are ten of them (Honor’s number) and they are associated with the Heralds, who formed the Oathpact (oaths = Honor!)

Dawnshards we don’t know much about yet. I’ll take a wild guess that they’re Odium Godmetal, since they predate human visiting to Roshar and are crazy-powerful.

Edit: Almost forgot to fulfill a promise earlier in the post!

Renarin (I think) uses voidbindings, and thus Odium’s magic system. He uses a similar force of nature as Mistborn Atium. Renarin’s voidbinding grants him the ability to see into the future, via a Surge that Odium offers but Honor does not. However, even though he is a Voidbinder, that doesn’t make him evil. We have plenty of examples in the Cosmere of people using a magic system associated with an “evil” shard for good purposes. He is still a Radiant because he follows their laws and oaths.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Cosmé

[Pattern he/him]

@Cosmé: The Old Magic could also be a remnant of the magic on Roshar pre-Shattering, now co-opted by Cultivation. It has to be "old" compared to Surgebinding to deserve the name. Since the Radiants came to existence somewhen during the desolations (around Nohadon's time), there are centuries or even millenia in which there were only Heralds and no Nahel bond surgebinders, so the only approachable magic could have been the Old Magic. Then it's entirely possible that you are right and it is Cultivation's magic and not a remnant of Adonalsium.

Renarin I don't think uses Voidbinding since he still uses Stormlight. Glys as Truthwatcherspren has been "corrupted" by Sja-Anat, so the surges of the Truthwatchers are modified. We don't see Renarin Lightweaving, instead he sees versions of the future. This is definitely a Voidbinding surge. His Progression surge seems to work properly as we see when he heals Adolin - also using Stormlight. Renarin's bindings are of hybrid nature, like Glys now is. Glys might grant access to voidbindings powered by Stormlight instead of Voidlight. I don't really know how we should call this. It is neither pure Voidbinding nor pure Surgebinding.
I'd also count Renarin one of the Radiants. Things are changing on Roshar and old categories, especially Vorin propaganda, will probably lose their meaning in future books. We already have female Shardbearers (Jasnah, Shallan, Azure), distinctions between light- and darkeyes vanish as darkeyes become Radiant, etc. It is a small step to assume that the new Orders of Radiants will be significantly different from the old Orders. This could and should include accepting Radiants with corrupted spren into the Orders, especially if Sja-Anat's claim intending to change sides is true.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Pattern
Grammar and Typos