[OB] Hoid, Taravangian, and Amaram

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

6 hours ago, kmosiman said:

My guess is that he would have some sympathy for Taravangian since they may share similar goals, but have different ability levels to achieve their goals. Hoid evidently has all eternity and greater foresight*, while Taravangian has limited time and notes made from one day. This allows Hoid to be more subtle and keep his hands cleaner; while Taravangian must employ more drastic measures.

Huge difference. I'm pretty sure Hoid actually knows what he is trying to accomplish. T is driving the world to destruction on the word of his "god" (the Diagram) and he has no clue what the end goal is going to be. Basically leaves him out to be a religious fanatic and little else.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

My point still remains the same. A big part of the hatred for King T and Amaram comes from the fact that we have mostly seen them do bad stuff, and rarely seen them being extremely likeable.

I don't find Amaram to be terribly likable--he reads as smug to me--but my conviction that Taravangian is evil did not stop me from finding him likable in chapter 28 from Oathbringer. (Or more to the point, my finding him likable hasn't changed my mind that I think he's evil.) I've also occasionally found myself sympathizing with Szeth, but as I've argued elsewhere, I think Szeth is evil too. I think that there are a lot of people who perceive characters the way you describe, but that's never been how it is for me.

(And again, not doing something good is not the same as doing something bad, so I don't buy that Hoid belongs in this conversation based on what we know so far. Down the road, could he be another Taravangian on a much larger scale? Totally possible. We don't know nearly enough to say one way or another. But based on the comment that he made to Dalinar, I don't see it.)

[Salkara]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Huge difference. I'm pretty sure Hoid actually knows what he is trying to accomplish. T is driving the world to destruction on the word of his "god" (the Diagram) and he has no clue what the end goal is going to be. Basically leaves him out to be a religious fanatic and little else.

I mean, there's a couple problems with this.

1. I don't think T has ever referred to the Diagram as his god, so putting quotes around it is misleading. He doesn't worship it, but he does follow it, so it would be more proper to call it his scripture and the Old Magic his god.
2. Just because we don't know what T's end goal is doesn't mean he doesn't have one. He's remarkably well informed compared to many of the other characters, but he's also secretive. Honestly, we haven't seen enough of him to really state what his endgame might be.
3. Finally, labeling T as a religious fanatic when we know so little just seems like a setup. The little bit we have seen of him has been divisive, but we haven't seen enough that it should be easy to draw rock solid conclusions.

Brandon has given us conflicted characters time and again. MB:TFE

Spoiler

Kelsier killed innocents whenever he felt they somehow served the Lord Ruler. He was a psychopath. Yet, it's entirely probable that Scadrial would be a wasted, lifeless rock without him. It's possible a similar path may be in store for T.

At this point, we've seen T doing the wrong things, but we haven't seen all that much. There's plenty of time for a change of heart and noble sacrifice. There's still time for the man who wanted the power to save the world to find a way to do it.

[Solant he/him]

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

At this point, we've seen T doing the wrong things, but we haven't seen all that much. There's plenty of time for a change of heart and noble sacrifice. There's still time for the man who wanted the power to save the world to find a way to do it.

I find this to be extremely likely,  especially if he is having a sympathetic "dumb" day and the plot leads him into a situation where his people cannot keep him isolated from non Diagramists 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

5 hours ago, Salkara said:

I mean, there's a couple problems with this.

1. I don't think T has ever referred to the Diagram as his god, so putting quotes around it is misleading. He doesn't worship it, but he does follow it, so it would be more proper to call it his scripture and the Old Magic his god.
2. Just because we don't know what T's end goal is doesn't mean he doesn't have one. He's remarkably well informed compared to many of the other characters, but he's also secretive. Honestly, we haven't seen enough of him to really state what his endgame might be.
3. Finally, labeling T as a religious fanatic when we know so little just seems like a setup. The little bit we have seen of him has been divisive, but we haven't seen enough that it should be easy to draw rock solid conclusions.

Brandon has given us conflicted characters time and again. MB:TFE

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier killed innocents whenever he felt they somehow served the Lord Ruler. He was a psychopath. Yet, it's entirely probable that Scadrial would be a wasted, lifeless rock without him. It's possible a similar path may be in store for T.

At this point, we've seen T doing the wrong things, but we haven't seen all that much. There's plenty of time for a change of heart and noble sacrifice. There's still time for the man who wanted the power to save the world to find a way to do it.

1. T did call the Diagram his god on tWoK, first time we see a pov from him. Will look it up later as have to go now.

2. I could be wrong, but the impression I got is T has no clue what the Diagram's endgame is. Thats why all the careful studying and trying to figure out the endgame by his scholars.

3. Probably, I just called him religious fanatic following point 1, but until now I had never read him like that

Spoiler

When you are at the bottom of the hierarchy (like the scadrial crew was) any good they do is seen as a gift and much applauded because it is not expected of them. When you are a king expectations of good things are a lot higher. Not fair, but its how it is. Plus Kelsier might have taken it too far but the people he was killing had killed his mother, his ex-crew, his wife, and would have killed him and anything he knew for the crime of been born. Its not as if he could say lets not kill each other. It was the most extreme situation of us or them. T is just doing a genocide because his super smart self, who he wouldn't even let rule his, city told him to.

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

10 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I don't personally think he was either, but intimating your intention to do something bad to stop something [assumed] worse, or achieve an [assumed] greater goal, should that situation arise, isn't worth our judgement. If they follow through, we should evaluate that situation and judge then.

I still see a large difference between letting something happen and actively killing people to achieve your goals, something we know Hoid can't do:

I don't think situation is what should be evaluated. I think the goal of the person is the most important thing. Amarams and King Ts goals are good for humanity in their eyes. I think Hoids goal is good for many in his eyes too. Judging people based on the situation they cause seems wierd, since mistakes and stuff outside their control can create a situation they didn't want at all. 

Also, Hoid can't kill people. We cant give him free pass because of that. If Amaram had wanted to kill Kaladin, but been unable too because Kaladin had gone for a vacation in Rall Elorim, we would still judge him for wanting. Would Hoid kill people if he could? I dont know, but it isn't unlikely.

 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

59 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Judging people based on the situation they cause seems wierd, since mistakes and stuff outside their control can create a situation they didn't want at all. 

This might be a cultural difference that we aren't seeing eye to eye on this. I don't know anything at all about how the legal system operates in Sweden, but those exact kind of scenarios can get your criminal charges bumped up in the U.S. if they happen while you are doing something illegaly. 

For example, in my town a year or two ago, a group of teenagers broke into a home and the owner shot and killed someone. They four other kids ended up getting a charge for his death added on top of the breaking and entering. Intent is used in very specific instances, but still isn't a gold standard. For instance, I could face prison time if, while running lights and sirens to an emergency on the ambulance we hit another car and cause a death.

59 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, Hoid can't kill people. We cant give him free pass because of that. If Amaram had wanted to kill Kaladin, but been unable too because Kaladin had gone for a vacation in Rall Elorim, we would still judge him for wanting. Would Hoid kill people if he could? I dont know, but it isn't unlikely.

Hoid didn't say he wants to watch the world crumble, he says should this situation arise, I will do this. I would also note that he pairs this with a warning for Dalinar not to trust him, being open and honest about his ulterior motive, something the other two have yet to do unless forced or in a position of uncompromised authority.

[Calderis he/him]

4 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

2. I could be wrong, but the impression I got is T has no clue what the Diagram's endgame is. Thats why all the careful studying and trying to figure out the endgame by his scholars.

The entire point of the Diagram is the survival of humanity. The study is in order to follow all of its instructions. 

The end game is to unify the world for the most possible survivors. 

[Salkara]

6 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

1. T did call the Diagram his god on tWoK, first time we see a pov from him. Will look it up later as have to go now.

2. I could be wrong, but the impression I got is T has no clue what the Diagram's endgame is. Thats why all the careful studying and trying to figure out the endgame by his scholars.

3. Probably, I just called him religious fanatic following point 1, but until now I had never read him like that

  Reveal hidden contents

When you are at the bottom of the hierarchy (like the scadrial crew was) any good they do is seen as a gift and much applauded because it is not expected of them. When you are a king expectations of good things are a lot higher. Not fair, but its how it is. Plus Kelsier might have taken it too far but the people he was killing had killed his mother, his ex-crew, his wife, and would have killed him and anything he knew for the crime of been born. Its not as if he could say lets not kill each other. It was the most extreme situation of us or them. T is just doing a genocide because his super smart self, who he wouldn't even let rule his, city told him to.

 

1. Just did a word search for "god" in WoK. T never used the word. Also, we don't get a PoV from him until the WoR interlude. All we get in WoK are him from Szeth's and Shallan's PoVs.
2. Well, he did ask the Nightwatcher for the power to save humanity, so if we consider the Diagram to be his boon (he probably does), then it would make sense to say the endgame of the Diagram is saving humanity (not saying I agree with the methods).
3. Fair enough.

Spoiler

I mean, the implication with your assertion is that murder is more acceptable if committed by someone poor than if committed by someone with affluence. I flat out disagree. The unacceptableness of murder does not vary based on the wealth of the murderer.

Moreover, many of the people Kelsier murdered were just skaa who joined the Luthadel garrison to gain a better life for their families. The difference here is that Brandon wanted is to like Kelsier, so we only glimpsed his sociopathic side, often being told about it third hand from other members of the crew.

With T, for whatever reason, the darker side of his character has been spotlighted. We're supposed to be critical of him at this point, but that doesn't mean that he won't have an avenue of redemption later on.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

11 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

2. I could be wrong, but the impression I got is T has no clue what the Diagram's endgame is.

What gave you that impression? Certainly not this paragraph:

Quote

Catechism of the Back of the Flowered Painting

“      Q: For what essential must we strive? A: The essential of preservation, to shelter a seed of humanity through the coming storm. Q: What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive. Our burden is that of the species, and all other considerations are but dust by comparison.”

—Paragraph 1

[kmosiman]

The part of the Diagram that makes me wonder is the scope of the task.

The instructions clearly seem to be limited to Roshar. While I doubt that a mass exodus through Shadesmar is possible for the people of Roshar, humanity will survive on other worlds. Taravangian's goal is to preserve humanity as he knows it, while Hoid may be seeking to preserve life as he knows it. 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

What gave me the impression that T has no clue what the endgame is his following plan seems to be: 

1. Kill monarchs

2. Cause wars, death and chaos

3. Become high king of Roshar 

4. And then?...

5. Somehow humanity in Roshar is miraculously saved

Until I see the logic between steps 3 and 5, I'm going to say T has no clue what he is doing. If all that was needed was to unite Roshar, why not while in his Diagram day write out the superb arguments to convince the monarchs of uniting to survive the Desolation? Because I can't believe the Diagram day T couldn't find arguments brilliant enough to separately convince the leaders of the world to unite. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

38 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

If all that was needed was to unite Roshar, why not while in his Diagram day write out the superb arguments to convince the monarchs of uniting to survive the Desolation? Because I can't believe the Diagram day T couldn't find arguments brilliant enough to separately convince the leaders of the world to unite. 

Did you forget about that day he drew up a law ordering those below a certain intelligence to commit suicide? His superb arguments aren't exactly the best idea, no matter how "convincing" he felt that law would have been were he given the opportunity to explain it to the people.

Also, simply being united isn't enough. He wanted other things to be done as well, and his "comrades" wouldn't always have gone for it.

Quote

Floorboard 17

“    There has to be an answer. What is the answer? Stop. The Parshendi. One of them. Yes they are the missing piece. Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one obtains their power. It will form a bridge.”
     —starting with the second

---

Floorboard 27

“     One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond. Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept the consequences of their potential Investiture.”

—Paragraph 6

---

Writings upon the Bedstand Lamp

“    Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify. The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great.”
     —Paragraph 4

The Parshendi needed to be gone(probably to prevent the Everstorm, since the Desolation would've happened anyway), the KR shouldn't be around either. Dalinar needs to be on his side or out of the picture. Anything that could cause division and prevent "the plan" from being enacted needs to be dealt with before the Desolation gets going. He's unified the whole of Jah Keved already, and is on his way towards unifying with Alethkar. And from there, the world.

I can actually see the logic of causing the instability and taking control afterwards(wasn't the best idea to do right before a Desolation, but he already on the clock). A point made ages ago regarding how humanity could actually recover from the Desolations was that people are less likely to fight each other after one. A focus on improvement can override inclinations for war, especially in the wake of a devastating one. Jah Keved went through quite a destructive succession war, and I don't think the people will tolerate another one. Now that Taravangian is in charge, the stability he provides will keep him in charge. It's why Franklin Roosevelt got elected President for 4 straight terms. In the wake of the Great Depression and later, World War II, he provided stability for the nation. And with the Desolation here, stable leadership is what people will need. he can lead them to safety and they'll follow his guiding hand.

Wow, that's an interesting perspective shift. Taravangian engineered a crisis so he could pull an FDR and take charge almost unopposed(like the '36 Election). At this crucial juncture, the world won't survive unless it is united. Taravangian is trying it one way, Dalinar is doing another. We just know more about Dalinar's way, which is why we doubt Taravangian

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

@Salkara Sorry this took a bit longer than expected.

Quote

Taravangian rested his fingers upon the leatherbound cover, feeling a moment of . . . reverence? Was that right? Did he revere anything anymore? God was dead, after all, and Vorinism therefore a sham.

This book, though, was holy. 

...

Gods and religion had failed them. Kings and highlords were selfish, petty things. If he was going to trust one thing to believe in, it would be himself and the raw genius of a human mind unfettered.

...

The answers would be here. They would. Taravangian worshipped only one god now. It was the man he had been on that day

Words of Radiance. Interlude I-14. 

Sorry I originally directed you to the wrong place, sometimes all the information in my head gets jumbled up and I don't remember where I originally got things from .

[Salkara]

22 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

@Salkara Sorry this took a bit longer than expected.

Words of Radiance. Interlude I-14. 

Sorry I originally directed you to the wrong place, sometimes all the information in my head gets jumbled up and I don't remember where I originally got things from .

No problem, but I still don't see him calling the Diagram his god. I see him call it "holy," so we could think of it as his scripture.

Also, he referred to the man he was on his Diagram day as his "god," not the Diagram itself. So he's worshipping Bradley Cooper in Limitless. Putting the "raw genius of a human mind unfettered" on a pedestal isn't something new in fantasy and science fiction. Just look at Mentats in Dune for an example where exacerbated human genius can be used for good, bad, and many shades in between.

[Marethyu316]

Taravangian also has shown some doubt about both his interpretation of the Diagram (having scholars work to interpret it correctly) and whether it is still a reasonable guide to his actions or if things have progressed beyond some of its recommendations. 

[Subvisual Haze]

Brandon mentioned that the whole idea behind his Cosmere of interacting storylines was greatly inspired by Asimov's Foundation series.  I wouldn't be surprised if a central theme of the Foundation series also didn't apply here 

Spoiler

The Foundation is composed of the greatest brilliant social scientific minds of the galaxy, complete with a super-genius founder who makes impressively accurate plans hundreds of years into the future.  It still almost completely fails though.  Predicting the future is still prediction, playing the odds essentially.  Occasionally the Universe will generate something phenomenally improbable (but not impossible) such as The Mule, and that small impossible to predict factor can disrupt all the other inter-dependent predictions from that point on.

Couple that with the idea of individual freewill, quantum mechanic theories suggesting that the universe is not perfectly deterministic, and the suggestion that even the Gods can't perfectly predict the future (Honor saying Cultivation is "better" at this than him, Harmony being surprised by events) and you realize that the further out we move from the point of creation of the Diagram, the more it will begin to fail as a predictive device.

Also, prophecy has a literary tradition older than dirt of fulfilling itself in ironic ways.  Maybe everything Mr. T thinks he is doing to save the world is actually designed to fail, but fail in such a way as it causes the true heroes to grow/learn/succeed.

I theorize that the reason Vorinism and Honor have prohibitions against seeing the future (or writing down what you see in the case of the Truthseers) have less to do with the ability itself, but rather what it leads to.  Exactly as with the diagram, believing you have perfect understanding of cause-effect leads to moral decay where any action no matter how wrong can be explained as necessary due to "the ends justify the means".

Or, basically see every philosophical argument ever written about the failures of consequentialist based ethics

[Blacksmithki]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Brandon mentioned that the whole idea behind his Cosmere of interacting storylines was greatly inspired by Asimov's Foundation series.  I wouldn't be surprised if a central theme of the Foundation series also didn't apply here 

  Hide contents

The Foundation is composed of the greatest brilliant social scientific minds of the galaxy, complete with a super-genius founder who makes impressively accurate plans hundreds of years into the future.  It still almost completely fails though.  Predicting the future is still prediction, playing the odds essentially.  Occasionally the Universe will generate something phenomenally improbable (but not impossible) such as The Mule, and that small impossible to predict factor can disrupt all the other inter-dependent predictions from that point on.

Couple that with the idea of individual freewill, quantum mechanic theories suggesting that the universe is not perfectly deterministic, and the suggestion that even the Gods can't perfectly predict the future (Honor saying Cultivation is "better" at this than him, Harmony being surprised by events) and you realize that the further out we move from the point of creation of the Diagram, the more it will begin to fail as a predictive device.

Also, prophecy has a literary tradition older than dirt of fulfilling itself in ironic ways.  Maybe everything Mr. T thinks he is doing to save the world is actually designed to fail, but fail in such a way as it causes the true heroes to grow/learn/succeed.

I theorize that the reason Vorinism and Honor have prohibitions against seeing the future (or writing down what you see in the case of the Truthseers) have less to do with the ability itself, but rather what it leads to.  Exactly as with the diagram, believing you have perfect understanding of cause-effect leads to moral decay where any action no matter how wrong can be explained as necessary due to "the ends justify the means".

Or, basically see every philosophical argument ever written about the failures of consequentialist based ethics

From what we know, they use other predictions (death rattles) to update the diagram and so far we have not seen any distinct and certain failing of the diagram, the closest thing was mistaking the number of factions in the succession war.

It's also possible, that the end goal of the mind that created the diagram is not the apparent end goal of the diagram, if he was so brilliant he may have made it so it would accomplish something by misleading the imterpreters, such as how attempting to seperate Kaladin from Dalinar pushed him to saw syl and speak new oaths, and indirectly lead to him killing/beating szeth and szeth getting Nightblood, wherever that leads.

for the first part, consider if the diagram, knowing it's not perfect included "if A then B" then it could be absurdly accurate despite variables and unlikely scenarios depending on how vague A and B are. And improving it will smaller predictions can help solve uncertaintys where he wasn't sure what would happen (death rattles)

Edited November 10, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 11/9/2017 at 10:12 AM, Marethyu316 said:

Taravangian also has shown some doubt about both his interpretation of the Diagram (having scholars work to interpret it correctly) and whether it is still a reasonable guide to his actions or if things have progressed beyond some of its recommendations. 

5 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

It's also possible, that the end goal of the mind that created the diagram is not the apparent end goal of the diagram,

A thing to mention to both of you regarding interpretations is that he created the Diagram on the Day of Brilliance, but he was only able to decipher what he wrote on a day of lesser brilliance. (I've taken to calling it the "Day of Interpretation," but whether or not that'll catch on..) Anyway, this means that the original motivation behind his words wasn't preserved in his mind, and since he was(presumably) at a lower intellect, he couldn't recapture that meaning either. So whatever the end goal, everyone who worked on the project had no knowledge of it when deciphering/interpreting the manuscript.

I do like the idea that the motives would be less obvious, even though that's gonna get pretty hard to conceal. At some point the dots will start to connect.

5 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

"if A then B"

There was an entry that warned him about putting proto-KR into stressful situations, unless he was willing to "accept the consequences" of their potential Investiture. I could see some "if this, then that" style lines in there.