[OB] Starfalls.

[Calderis he/him]

So the trapping of Re-Shepir just sparked something in my mind regarding the very first vision in The Way of Kings. 

After Dalinar fights off the Midnight Essence with the two Knights, there's this exchange. 

Quote

“The Desolation,” he said. “That means the Voidbringers, right? Those are what we fought this night?”

The knight sniffed dismissively. “Voidbringers? These? No, this was Midnight Essence, though who released it is still a mystery.” She looked to the side, expression growing distant. “Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. He—”

So an individual released the Midnight Essence. 

Re-Shepir was trapped during this vision, and there were traitors, if not among the Knights themselves, then at least among those in Urithiru. 

[antiquegeek]

I had this exact same thought while reading! I wonder how many Unmade were imprisoned (possibly all of them?) and if them being released would portent the coming of a Desolation.

[Mr Maker]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

So the trapping of Re-Shepir just sparked something in my mind regarding the very first vision in The Way of Kings. 

After Dalinar fights off the Midnight Essence with the two Knights, there's this exchange. 

So an individual released the Midnight Essence. 

Re-Shepir was trapped during this vision, and there were traitors, if not among the Knights themselves, then at least among those in Urithiru. 

But the text says "This was Midnight Essence" [Singular]... though who released it is still a mystery"

Could midnight essence just be a colloquial in-world term at the time for Re-Sephir (meaning they are one and the same), and when the knight makes his/her statement, they are inferring merely that [Re-Sephir/Midnight Essense] was to blame for these monsters, and who released it [Re-Sephir/Midnight Essense] is still unknown.

The Radiant could view this Unmade and the monsters it manifests as unimportant in the grand scheme of things - a mere nuisance compared to the actual void bringers.

This was how I understood it the first time it read it in TWOK.

I may of course be completely wrong!

I agree though that it suggests that Re-Sephir had been trapped until very recently prior to when the vision takes place.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Mr Maker

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Re-Shepir was trapped during this vision, and there were traitors, if not among the Knights themselves, then at least among those in Urithiru. 

Where is this stated? In the chapter?

I don't really understand what you want to get to, either. That Re-Shepir was released just before this vision? Then I wonder why the Radiants didn't recognize her work. If they know what Midnight Essence is, but not about Re-Shepir, it hints toward two things:

-Midnight Essence was discovered long before Re-Shepir was.

-Someone/something else than Re-Shepir can create ME.

Also, Calderis, your rep level is kind of perfectly timed for Oathbringer. Has this been your plan all along?

Edited November 1, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Where is this stated? In the chapter?

It's not. But the statement of the midnight essence being released by an individual doesn't make sense otherwise. 

We didn't previously have a context for that statement. The midnight essence is the product of an Unmade. It's presence wouldn't be attributed to someone,  but to Re-Shepir herself. 

If she were trapped somehow though, and someone were to have released some of her minions, the statement makes sense. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Calderis I edited my post with more thoughts, but I think you might have missed it, since you replied before I was finished. But there is at least another option, namely that Re-Shepir wasn't discovered yet.

[Calderis he/him]

18 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I don't really understand what you want to get to, either. That Re-Shepir was released just before this vision? Then I wonder why the Radiants didn't recognize her work.

I don't think Re-Shepir was released. Just some of her creations. I think she was somehow bound but still functioned normally, and a traitor allowed the Midnight Essence that Dalinar fought to run free. 

18 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

-Midnight Essence was discovered long before Re-Shepir was.

-Someone/something else than Re-Shepir can create ME.

I could obviously be wrong, but I don't think these are the case. Her naming as the Midnight Mother, and what we saw in the chapters, makes it seem as if she is the source. And I find it unlikely that the Radiants of old were unaware of their adversaries. 

18 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, Calderis, your rep level is kind of perfectly timed for Oathbringer. Has this been your plan all along?

You've discovered my secret. My obsession with Taravangian is due to my own Diagram. I've manipulated my rep in order to be a Bondsmith at this moment. It's to late to stop me. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think Re-Shepir was released. Just some of her creations. I think she was somehow bound but still functioned normally, and a traitor allowed the Midnight Essence that Dalinar fought to run free. 

I could obviously be wrong, but I don't think these are the case. Her naming as the Midnight Mother, and what we saw in the chapters, makes it seem as if she is the source. And I find it unlikely that the Radiants of old were unaware of their adversaries. 

You've discovered my secret. My obsession with Taravangian is due to my own Diagram. I've manipulated my rep in order to be a Bondsmith at this moment. It's to late to stop me. 

Quick! Downvote him into submission! 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

We saw that Re-Shephir was bound by the Gem pillar, but could still send out spren, her essence so to speak, so I wonder if her previous imprisonment was to the same capacity as this one, meaning was she fully bound and could do nothing or only partially bound and able to send out spren. 

Nice work Calderis! We don't know if was trapped in Urithiru although I would venture there was a traitor somewhere, a there was that in-world WOR excerpt where the Orders had to deal with one of their own.

Edited November 1, 2017 by ParadoxicalZen

[kari-no-sugata]

As far as I can tell, "Re-Shepir" was the main blob that Shallan encountered and the things she saw elsewhere in Urithiru were Midnight Essence. So Midnight Essence is only released by Re-Shepir itself.

It's worth remembering that people don't have perfect knowledge. For example, the Radiants in this vision might not know about Re-Shepir while they do know about Midnight Essence, if you see the difference.

Given that Re-Shepir's becoming trapped is a "recent" event for it, I very much doubt it was during previous Desolations. The last Desolation was 4500 years ago and Re-Shepir would probably not be much more than 10,000 years old (at most) based on what Brandon has said about timelines. Shallan's impression is that it's been many centuries (maybe 500-1500 years) not many millennia. I would say that this all points to Re-Shepir's being trapped is well after the last Desolation and is probably close to the time of the Recreance.

At the moment, I'm not sure what Re-Shepir was doing here in Urithiru. Some people think it was trapped here and some think that it was recently released there or recently moved there of its own violation. It feels to me more like the latter - when we see it it doesn't feel like it was in a state of being trapped.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

48 minutes ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

We saw that Re-Shephir was bound by the Gem pillar, but could still send out spren, her essence so to speak, so I wonder if her previous imprisonment was to the same capacity as this one, meaning was she fully bound and could do nothing or only partially bound and able to send out spren.

I didn't get the impression Re-Shephir was bound by the pillar, rather I got the impression s/he was hiding it to either block its function or absorb its light herself (will go with female pronouns).

48 minutes ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

We don't know if was trapped in Urithiru although I would venture there was a traitor somewhere

What makes me really curious is...why would a traitor fight for Odium? And what would a traitor hope to gain? We did see in chapters that in the past diplomacy was never tried, so the modern nations semi-yielding is obviously not the norm.

My overall impression was that Re-Shephir's imprisionment ended a long time ago, otherwise she'd be much more jumpy than she already was.

55 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Quick! Downvote him into submission! 

That would drop him down to Voidbringer...sounds good. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Mr Maker said:

The Radiant could view this Unmade and the monsters it manifests as unimportant in the grand scheme of things - a mere nuisance compared to the actual void bringers.

This was how I understood it the first time it read it in TWOK.

This is very much what it felt like to me as well. The Radiants are thoroughly not impressed by them.

[ScavellTane]

It seems the Skybreakers are uniquely equipped to hunt this thing down.

[Leyrann]

6 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

It seems the Skybreakers are uniquely equipped to hunt this thing down.

Why Skybreakers in particular? I'd argue that all Orders could fight pretty well.

[ScavellTane]

Not fight it but track it. Considering its copying killings.

[Calderis he/him]

I don't think that ReShepir was still bound to the pillar. 

I feel like it was there to try and keep the pillar from being claimed. With the lifts we've already seen gemstones inserted into receptacles to run portions of Urithiru. 

I feel like this pillar is the battery that runs Urithiru's engines. Refill the sockets with infused stones, and Urithiru will come to life. 

[kari-no-sugata]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that ReShepir was still bound to the pillar. 

I feel like it was there to try and keep the pillar from being claimed. With the lifts we've already seen gemstones inserted into receptacles to run portions of Urithiru. 

I feel like this pillar is the battery that runs Urithiru's engines. Refill the sockets with infused stones, and Urithiru will come to life. 

Yeah, that's my impression too. I think Re-Shepir was deliberately sticking to the gem pillar to prevent Urithiru from coming back to life. There's no indication that I can see that it was trapped there. I hope Part 1 ends with Urithiru lighting up like a Christmas tree during the next highstorm. In chapter 25, Shallan says:

Quote

The tower of Urithiru was a skeleton, and these strata beneath Shallan’s fingers were veins that wrapped the bones, dividing and spreading across the entire body. But what did those veins carry? Not blood.

Not blood, but stormlight!

[Salkara]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

So an individual released the Midnight Essence. 

Re-Shepir was trapped during this vision, and there were traitors, if not among the Knights themselves, then at least among those in Urithiru. 

I agree on the most salient point that Re-Shephir was trapped, but I do have a couple qualms (surprise, right?):

1. "Who" can be both singular or plural, usually determined but the context. Here, that's unclear, so it could be an individual or a group that released the ME. Who knows... maybe the SoH have been around for a long, long time.
2. The KR never actually states where the ME was released from. I'll agree that Urithuru seems thematically appropriate; however, for all we know, Re-Shephir could've been bound to a cave in the Misted Mountains, a gem buried on an Amian beach, or even some poor greatshell's bum. The traitor(s) may be from outside the KR and Urithuru.

[Erunion he/him]

What if Re-Shephir isn’t the only way to release Midnight Essence? It could be an ability of a Voidbinder/Voidbringer - who’s Odious surge mimics Re-Shephir’s power in the same way that Kaladin’s windrunning surges mimic Jezriens power. 

[kari-no-sugata]

8 minutes ago, Erunion said:

What if Re-Shephir isn’t the only way to release Midnight Essence? It could be an ability of a Voidbinder/Voidbringer - who’s Odious surge mimics Re-Shephir’s power in the same way that Kaladin’s windrunning surges mimic Jezriens power. 

It's not impossible that there is more than one thing that humans classify as Midnight Essence but are in fact different in practice. Ie it would technically be a miss-classification. I think the only way we'd have something identical is if there's more than one Re-Shepnir.

[ScavellTane]

4 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It's not impossible that there is more than one thing that humans classify as Midnight Essence but are in fact different in practice. Ie it would technically be a miss-classification. I think the only way we'd have something identical is if there's more than one Re-Shepnir.

The surges are shared between the Orders, why can't the Unmade have shared surges as well.

[kari-no-sugata]

14 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

The surges are shared between the Orders, why can't the Unmade have shared surges as well.

It looks to me that Re-Shepnir is using the Surge of Transformation (possibly with some Lightweaving as well), since the things have physical form. So in theory anyone could copy that... but does that make it the same?

Hmm, here's an interesting thought...

The Midnight Essence that we see seem to be "separate" from Re-Shepnir. ie they are "birthed" and are then somewhat independent. So are individual Midnight Essences each a spren? If so it would tie into this quote from chapter 10:

Quote

In comparing Syl to his mother for nagging him? “Are you even capable of having children? Baby spren?”

“I have no idea,” Syl proclaimed.

“You call the Stormfather… well, Father. Right? So he birthed you?”

“Maybe? I think so? Helped shape me, is more like it. Helped us find our voices.” She cocked her head. “Yes. He made some of us. Made me.”

If that is the case then no it would not be a matter of simply having the same Surges.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

28 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

If that is the case then no it would not be a matter of simply having the same Surges.

I don't think it's safe to assume they share the same surges. We see references to Voidbinding.

Quote

“The problem, bright one,” Kadash said, “was mysticism. The priests claimed that common men could not understand religion or the Almighty. Where there should have been openness, there was smoke and whispers. The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future.”

WoK Chapter 18 Highprince of War

I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different.

Ars Arcanum

I agree with @Erunion it's more likely to be a Voidbinder than a traitor.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

@WhiteLeeopard @Calderis It was the impression I was getting from the chapter, that it had been bound there by the previous Lightweaver. I'll give the chapter a re-read as that was how I read it. As for the lack of jumpy-ness, Shallan does say that whilst centuries have passed, the trapping was fairly recent for it.

But as I said, i'll give it re-read. I am also of the impression that the pillar is a battery, but I am curious about how it would transport the light. (the strata make sense)

EDIT: on a re-read, I see what you both mean. I am curious though; It believed imprisonment was presumed impossible and unexpected, so I wonder if it was done via Dawnshard or another method. And given how centuries upon centuries (and not millennia) had passed, I would venture it was done near or before the Recreance, as that's about 1500+/- years give or take, if I'm reading jofwu's timeline correctly. I wonder if she was ordered to guard the pillar of if she just wandered there.

Edited November 1, 2017 by ParadoxicalZen

[The Invested Beard]

I'm pretty convinced that Re-Shephir was not only NOT trapped on the pillar, but was actually siphoning stormlight from it when the storms hit. I'm not 100% sure the unmade can absorb stormlight, but it seems that way as there obviously had to have been stormlight infusing the column and it wasn't getting out to the city. If she wasn't sucking it up where was it going?