[OB] Shallan V Re-Shepnir

[Rasha]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

As nobody saw it as dust, the books' cognitive will stil themself as books and probably they could be regrowth's target to be restored....Maybe some books will be beyond recovery but I think most of them will return to their former glory (by the way, between those books, could be the in-world Oathbringer)

 

Does identity need a human to be created or change ? The stick was persuaded to be a sick, and I doubt many humans saw it in a lost part of the Frostland. It didn't need humans to persuade him that it would stay a stick, it just was a stick because its form and essence matched one of a stick. If Identity is an innate attribute, it should be able to change on its own, reguardless of human presence. When the Physical form doesn't match the Cognitive Identity there is a conflict and I would hazard that after long enough, the Cognitive Itentity changes to match the Physical form.

 

[Wreith he/him]

21 minutes ago, Rasha said:

 

Does identity need a human to be created or change ? The stick was persuaded to be a sick, and I doubt many humans saw it in a lost part of the Frostland. It didn't need humans to persuade him that it would stay a stick, it just was a stick because its form and essence matched one of a stick. If Identity is an innate attribute, it should be able to change on its own, reguardless of human presence. When the Physical form doesn't match the Cognitive Identity there is a conflict and I would hazard that after long enough, the Cognitive Itentity changes to match the Physical form.

 

Most of the examples that we have indicate that objects get their identity from people. We don't know how Stick identified itself before Shallan interacted with it. My guess would be Tree. If Shallan is the only one to have dealt with Stick in its current form, then her's would be the only identification assigned to it. This would also explain why it was so contrary, beyond just Shallan's inexperience. If her perception was the only thing identifying Stick then she wasn't just changing Stick, she was changing her own identification and knowledge of the object. Actively convincing yourself of something in this fashion is difficult. Though Shallan seems to have a gift in that regard.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Wreith
spelling

[Fringe]

So Re-Sephir was trying to insert herself into Shallan’s spirit web, replacing Pattern. I imagine that this would give Shallan-Re-Sephir their own Nahel bond but this would have also made Re-Sephir susceptible to death. Could it be that the Re-Sephir’s imprisonment is actually her death, much like a Spren dies and becomes a blade upon the breaking of oaths? Of course that would mean that Shallan (or whoever Re-Sephir bonds with) make and break those oaths somehow... Just curious what you guys thought?

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Rasha said:

Does identity need a human to be created or change ? The stick was persuaded to be a sick, and I doubt many humans saw it in a lost part of the Frostland. It didn't need humans to persuade him that it would stay a stick, it just was a stick because its form and essence matched one of a stick. If Identity is an innate attribute, it should be able to change on its own, reguardless of human presence. When the Physical form doesn't match the Cognitive Identity there is a conflict and I would hazard that after long enough, the Cognitive Itentity changes to match the Physical form.

I personally believe that the answer to this is no. The reason is in my signature, but in short: Identity is a fundamental property of particles (in it's core, it's as simple as "the particle is in this position and interacts with these particles"), and more complex Identities form from relations between particles. Additionally, almost everything has some sort of consciousness, which is what allows the stick to 'refuse' Transformation. Also, it isn't actually that it needs to be convinced. You simply need to throw enough Investiture against it to force it.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

I personally believe that the answer to this is no. The reason is in my signature, but in short: Identity is a fundamental property of particles (in it's core, it's as simple as "the particle is in this position and interacts with these particles"), and more complex Identities form from relations between particles. Additionally, almost everything has some sort of consciousness, which is what allows the stick to 'refuse' Transformation. Also, it isn't actually that it needs to be convinced. You simply need to throw enough Investiture against it to force it.

For the living stuffs yes, but the not living stuffs recive their Cognitive Aspects mainly by the other watching and thinking about it.
By the way to avoid confusion "Identity" in the Cosmere denotes a complete other concept, so if we want to continue to debate to this topic, the Stick's"I am a Stick" is dictate by its Cognitive Aspect, not its Identity.

Returning to the Objects' Cognitive, we have multiple WoB on the fact that an object without any kind of interaction with sentient minds will not develop a Cognitive Aspect. Some examples by WoB (that at the moment I could not search, by I think you could find them quite easly) are: A chair nobody ever saw, will not think to itself as a chair, the gas giants in Great Roshar has a little Cognitive Aspect because the people don't think too much on them, the space and planets without sentient mind will not develop a Cognitive reflection.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

24 minutes ago, Yata said:

gas giants in Great Roshar has a little Cognitive Aspect because the people don't think too much on them, the space and planets without sentient mind will not develop a Cognitive reflection.

Is this what makes interplanetary travel in the cognitive realm possible? The lack of cognitive aspects for those locations and planets essentially 'deletes' them and allows the world-hoppers to essentially fast travel over them to the next cognitively recognized area?

Edited November 2, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Leyrann]

34 minutes ago, Yata said:

By the way to avoid confusion "Identity" in the Cosmere denotes a complete other concept, so if we want to continue to debate to this topic, the Stick's"I am a Stick" is dictate by its Cognitive Aspect, not its Identity.

That's where I disagree, but meh, don't feel like arguing about it, so let's just agree to disagree.

10 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Is this what makes interplanetary travel in the cognitive realm possible? The lack of cognitive aspects for those locations and planets essentially 'deletes' them and allows the world-hoppers to essentially fast travel over them to the next cognitively recognized area?

I don't think that would even be needed. Space is 99.999% (or even more) emptiness (there's a reason it's called space), so even if you do come across everything there is, it's still almost nothing. And bceause the Cognitive Realm doesn't really work with distances but instead simply has everything that the Physical Realm has but right next to one another, it's like the space has been cut out.

[The Invested Beard]

58 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

That's where I disagree, but meh, don't feel like arguing about it, so let's just agree to disagree.

I don't think that would even be needed. Space is 99.999% (or even more) emptiness (there's a reason it's called space), so even if you do come across everything there is, it's still almost nothing. And bceause the Cognitive Realm doesn't really work with distances but instead simply has everything that the Physical Realm has but right next to one another, it's like the space has been cut out.

This is actually not true. A large part of what you call emptiness has recently been discovered to be dark matter, exotic dark matter, and dark energy. We don't really know how they work yet, but we know it's there.

[Leyrann]

6 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

This is actually not true. A large part of what you call emptiness has recently been discovered to be dark matter, exotic dark matter, and dark energy. We don't really know how they work yet, but we know it's there.

Jury's still out on that as well. It's the leading theory, but there's also MOND, which attempts to offer an explanation for the 'weird' observations without dark matter, as well as a few other, less well-known theories.

Also I'm pretty sure dark matter (if it exists) is not evenly spread out according to the theory. After all, if it's evenly spread, how is it going to influence the way large-scale objects move?

[Yata he/him]

8 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Is this what makes interplanetary travel in the cognitive realm possible? The lack of cognitive aspects for those locations and planets essentially 'deletes' them and allows the world-hoppers to essentially fast travel over them to the next cognitively recognized area?

Mainly yes, indeed this kind of stuffs happens also in the context of a single Shardworld, a city will be mostly 1:1 in the CR while (for example) a desert will be quite compressed for the lack of minds. Sure this compression is much much less than what you could expect to found in open space, but it's still there.

7 hours ago, Leyrann said:

That's where I disagree, but meh, don't feel like arguing about it, so let's just agree to disagree.

You could disagree with me, but Identity is a Spiritual Stuff while you are talking of something Cognitive, it's what allow to your Soul's Investiture to work well with itself without interferences. Here we are in the SA's subforum so I will avoid to talk about other stories' material but you could find Identity explicity at work in Mistborn and Warbreaker.

I could understand you use the word identity without the actual Realmatic Meaning, but I wrote my previous post just to avoid confusion

[Leyrann]

25 minutes ago, Yata said:

You could disagree with me, but Identity is a Spiritual Stuff while you are talking of something Cognitive, it's what allow to your Soul's Investiture to work well with itself without interferences. Here we are in the SA's subforum so I will avoid to talk about other stories' material but you could find Identity explicity at work in Mistborn and Warbreaker.

I could understand you use the word identity without the actual Realmatic Meaning, but I wrote my previous post just to avoid confusion

So, I kind of want to talk about this more (also because I realize I might very well be wrong, in which case I'll have to rethink my theory), but I don't feel like this is the place for it, as this is a thread about the battle between Shallan and Re-Shepnir, even though we were already kinda off-topic. Any chance you can explain more in my theory's thread?

[Yata he/him]

3 hours ago, Leyrann said:

So, I kind of want to talk about this more (also because I realize I might very well be wrong, in which case I'll have to rethink my theory), but I don't feel like this is the place for it, as this is a thread about the battle between Shallan and Re-Shepnir, even though we were already kinda off-topic. Any chance you can explain more in my theory's thread?

Sure, just I can't read it now, I saw it is quite long and I am at work. I will read it as soon as I can

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

On 11/1/2017 at 6:44 AM, ScavellTane said:

Soulcasting the book won't work I think. You need to soulcast it into a specific book not a generic book, which is what most of the soulcasting we've seen.

Even Regrowth would be a problem since the book would most likely have been dust much longer than it has been a book.

We need Shai to some fix the books with some stamps.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 10/31/2017 at 9:52 AM, Subvisual Haze said:

Syl is a windspren but with a chunk of Honor's power attached. Pattern is a creationspren with a chunk of Cultivation. This Unmade seems to be a creationspren with a very large chunk of Odium's power attached to it.

I tend to think they are a separate type of Spren composed of Investiture from H&C, rather than attached to them.

Also, we know that the Nahel Spren are a mix of Investiture from Honor and Cultivation. I don't believe we know if any of them are solely of one of the Shards

On 10/31/2017 at 9:59 AM, ScavellTane said:

You would think that the KR would essentially hunt down and trap all the Unmade. Yet the black spheres are tied to the Parshendi Gods instead.

The gods the Parshendi abandoned are of Odium. The Unmade are Splinters of Odium. Make of these as you will.

On 10/31/2017 at 10:07 AM, Tarion said:

This makes me wonder if Szeth ever recovered the black sphere.

Before the Diagram found him, he had it hidden in Jah Keved. But I could totally see him hiding it in Urithiru later, once he started travelling internationally again. It's the safest place he knew, after all. He's the only character we know had access to Urithiru and it seems like more than a coincidence that he is also one of the few people who could have possessed the captured Re-Shepnir. 

Personally, I don't think he did. Either way, he didn't have access to the Library that Re-Shephir was in.

Returning to Jah Keved to reclaim the Sphere is a perfect opportunity for Brandon to showcase the chaos and unrest in the wake of Szeth's regicide, the wars it caused, and Taravangian's subsequent takeover. Speaking of whom, whenever Szeth goes to Urithiru(either with Nalan, for the sphere, etc..) he might see Taravangian there. That could be.. problematic for all parties involved.