Amaram

[Knghtstlker]

So we all remember what happened to Shallan's brother Helleran *Spelling*, Which is when Kal killed him, Amaram took the blade and plate, He surely would not give the plate to someone unfitting, but as I recall he already had plate. However, in WoR, it was accounted that he had earned his Shardblade only a few months before instead of when he really took it from Kal. but that means that a bunch of his soldiers were present to corroborate the winning of the shard blade? Unless he said something like, Uhhh he won it In battle, at night, last night, you weren't there, but it happened.

Amaram is too smart for that, He wanted the winning of his shard blade to be a matter of uncontested history. Plenty of witnesses around. So here lies the big question. Who did Amaram fell, to feign winning a shard blade? He's probably an accomplished warrior to have shard plate anyways, One who claims to have such a clean honor would have surely had to defend it at a few points in time.

Here's the conspiracy, we know in WoR that Amaram's trying to scoop up that extra blade, but what if he didn't Feign killing someone for the other blade, what if he actually just was skilled enough to take another shardbearer down. I don't know if we've ever covered the issue if you can bond two shard blades at once. I for one think you could, I don't know if the bonding process has ever been discussed at great detail, whether a Dead Spren blade wielder could summon his shardblade in either hand, or if they have to hold the shard blade *As I think was stated*, as often as possible to "Train" the DeadSpren to which hand and what position to form to.

Thoughts?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

8 minutes ago, Knghtstlker said:

So we all remember what happened to Shallan's brother Helleran *Spelling*, Which is when Kal killed him, Amaram took the blade and plate, He surely would not give the plate to someone unfitting, but as I recall he already had plate. However, in WoR, it was accounted that he had earned his Shardblade only a few months before instead of when he really took it from Kal. but that means that a bunch of his soldiers were present to corroborate the winning of the shard blade? Unless he said something like, Uhhh he won it In battle, at night, last night, you weren't there, but it happened.

Amaram is too smart for that, He wanted the winning of his shard blade to be a matter of uncontested history. Plenty of witnesses around. So here lies the big question. Who did Amaram fell, to feign winning a shard blade? He's probably an accomplished warrior to have shard plate anyways, One who claims to have such a clean honor would have surely had to defend it at a few points in time.

Here's the conspiracy, we know in WoR that Amaram's trying to scoop up that extra blade, but what if he didn't Feign killing someone for the other blade, what if he actually just was skilled enough to take another shardbearer down. I don't know if we've ever covered the issue if you can bond two shard blades at once. I for one think you could, I don't know if the bonding process has ever been discussed at great detail, whether a Dead Spren blade wielder could summon his shardblade in either hand, or if they have to hold the shard blade *As I think was stated*, as often as possible to "Train" the DeadSpren to which hand and what position to form to.

Thoughts?

Not very likely. His stormwarden identifies the bearer as a minor Lord from Jah Keved and Kal notices the red hair. Shallan recognizes the blade. All of this points to it being the same set of shards.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Knghtstlker]

4 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Not very likely. His stormwarden identifies the bearer as a minor Lord from Jah Keved and Kal notices the red hair. Shallan recognizes the blade. All of this points to it being the same set of shards.

I know that, but how did he get so many people to corroborate his BS lie? That's what I'm getting at. We all know about the tuft of red hair, and that Shallan recognized the blade, that wasn't the question. The question was, did he stage a bout with another Shardbearer under controlled conditions? Or did he really kill another Shardbearer to make it a matter of public record? I recall him having an asston of corroborates.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Knghtstlker said:

I know that, but how did he get so many people to corroborate his BS lie? That's what I'm getting at. We all know about the tuft of red hair, and that Shallan recognized the blade, that wasn't the question. The question was, did he stage a bout with another Shardbearer under controlled conditions? Or did he really kill another Shardbearer to make it a matter of public record? I recall him having an asston of corroborates.

The same way he had people in the room with him to kill Kaladin's squad mates, brand him and cover for him. 

Amaram has minions and conspirators to aid him in his goals. He's one of the Sons of Honor, after all. 

[Knghtstlker]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The same way he had people in the room with him to kill Kaladin's squad mates, brand him and cover for him. 

Amaram has minions and conspirators to aid him in his goals. He's one of the Sons of Honor, after all. 

It makes the most sense, just wonder how he got sooo many corroborators. He would either have to stage winning the shardblade, or he would have to go with a strike team of men he trusts to the grave, though it makes the most sense. Even I was wondering why he would still use the blade he took from Kaladin over one he won from someone else, unless there were some bonding mechanics that I wasn't aware of.

[Yezrien]

Does he need "corroborators?" When you obtain a shardblade, do they make you fill out paperwork and get signatures from reputable witnesses? When a high-ranking lighteyes shows up with a shardblade, are people really going to ask for his license and registration?

If a fellow lighteyes accuses him of treachery, they can duel for it. If a darkeyes complains, the darkeyes gets thrown in jail. That's how the system works.

[Starla]

@Knghtstlker I agree that it is odd that so many witnesses claim Amaram won the shardblade four months ago. I just read the chapter today where Dalinar tells Kaladin the results of his investigation. Here is the exact quote from WOR Chapter 58:

Quote

“I don’t know where you got this idea about Amaram,” Dalinar said, “but you have to stop. I checked into what you said, after you brought it to my attention the first time. Seventeen witnesses told me that Amaram won his Shardblade only four months ago, long after your ledger says you were made a slave.” 

“Lies.”

“Seventeen men,” Dalinar repeated. “Lighteyed and dark, along with the word of a man I’ve known for decades. You’re wrong about him, soldier. You’re just plain wrong.”

I think it is safe to assume that Dalinar interviewed seventeen random men in Amaram's camp, both officers and soldiers. Why would all of them tell the same story? My guess is that he staged a fight four months ago, with many witnesses present. Perhaps he had someone he trusted bond the blade, then they fought and the other person played dead, while breaking the bond with the blade. It's a stretch, but staging a fight seems more logical than Amaram having coached every man in his army to tell the same lie. I think Amaram would rather have his men believe he won the blade fair and square, than to have them all know he is lying. 

[Vortaan]

Amaram didn't have Plate. He is vulnerable to Helaran when his horse collapses on his leg, a man in Plate would have been able to easily resolve that. 

[thejopen27]

7 hours ago, Starla said:

@Knghtstlker I agree that it is odd that so many witnesses claim Amaram won the shardblade four months ago. I just read the chapter today where Dalinar tells Kaladin the results of his investigation. Here is the exact quote from WOR Chapter 58:

I think it is safe to assume that Dalinar interviewed seventeen random men in Amaram's camp, both officers and soldiers. Why would all of them tell the same story? My guess is that he staged a fight four months ago, with many witnesses present. Perhaps he had someone he trusted bond the blade, then they fought and the other person played dead, while breaking the bond with the blade. It's a stretch, but staging a fight seems more logical than Amaram having coached every man in his army to tell the same lie. I think Amaram would rather have his men believe he won the blade fair and square, than to have them all know he is lying. 

I agree, I think he staged a fight for his men to see. Also, I don't know if this is what the OP meant, but Amaram didn't have shardplate previously. He acquired both for the first time from Kaladin. 

[Knghtstlker]

1 hour ago, thejopen27 said:

I agree, I think he staged a fight for his men to see. Also, I don't know if this is what the OP meant, but Amaram didn't have shardplate previously. He acquired both for the first time from Kaladin. 

You're right. I wonder how he managed that.

[Smokeform]

Dalinar’s servant drank with Amaram’s body guards and they admitted to Amaram’s dishonorable actions. I always assumed he bribed people. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Smokeform

[thejopen27]

5 hours ago, Smokeform said:

Dalinar’s servant drank with Amaram’s body guards and they admitted to Amaram’s dishonorable actions. I always assumed he bribed people. 

I don't think that's what happened. They said he did win them. Dalinar used Borden to plant the story of the madman and the secret treasure. The only evidence Dalinar had at the time on Amaram was Kaladin's story. 

[Walin]

Amaram killed Kaladin’s men because he knew they’d talk, and the army would get suspicious. So Amaram’s army can’t be mass-conspirators in this (Axiom 1).

Amaram said he’d have his own men say that Kaladin’s group helped the Shardbearer, and that Kaladin was neutral (Axiom 2).

Dalinar’s evidence was the word of seventeen men. Thus, they professed to be eyewitnesses to the event—no info gained by Amaram’s announcement to the army would be considered trustworthy (Axiom 3).

Much of the army was either running away from the Shardbearer (Helaran), or already dead, when he came for Amaram. His very own honor guard was fleeing before the attack was thwarted (Axiom 4).

Anyone nearby the guard probably would have kept running with them (the guard). Any turn back would have been while running, and thus unreliable due to shaky-camera POV being not super informative. They would only be able to tell that the Shardbearer was no longer standing, because “Hey the shiny glory dropped from view” (Axiom 5).

After seeing the Shardbearer being downed, the incredulity of it could make them stop running and try for a better look. Seeing as Helaran was already dead and Kaladin was on the ground near him and making no movement, any knowledge of the fight (who hit what, and when) would have to be gained by coming back to the site of the Shardbearer’s body (Axiom 6).

Only the honor guard came back to the site to hear the story during Kaladin’s POV (Axiom 7).

We don’t know about Kaladin’s men during that time, but it’s pretty safe to say nobody questioned them either before everyone got to the barracks (Axiom 8).

Thus, Amaram’s crew were the only ones who were firsthand (read: not by rumor or story telling, or else Dalinar wouldn’t have counted it as evidence) witnesses to Kaladin killing Helaran—Conclusion 1; see 

Amaram’s honor guard is almost certainly loyal enough to him to be culpable in any deception he makes, especially considering some of them were in the room when Kaladin’s men were killed (Axiom 11).

 

Dang, I just realized there’s a hole in my reasoning—the army would know that the Shards were gained at a different time. So, that weakens Axiom 1’s effectiveness. However, I wanted to post some deductive reasoning that stated Dalinar didn’t ask random people in the army. I also wanted to use the word “Axiom” a lot. I’ll post this anyways because it would be a waste of text to not; I won’t elaborate further since my evidence is ineffective now, though. 

[thejopen27]

The sword of Helaran/Amaram is a Dustbringer sword right? That's not really relevant to this discussion, but it has flames on it and Fire is the essence associated with Chana/Releasers. 

[Walin]

Maybe. Hopefully we’ll find out in Oathbringer or via a WOB, but I don’t think that its design is what determines the order. Actually maybe it is, we never got a WOB on that. Maybe make a discussion topic on whether Shardblade designs are related to their orders via Essence similarities.

[Weltall]

The evidence that pointed us to Adolin's blade originally belonging to an Edgedancer wasn't the shape of the blade itself but the fact that the mist that it forms from when summoned is noted to resemble vines. This is what Brandon was asked when he confirmed it. The shape of the blades probably has more to do with the preferences of the original Radiant than anything specific about the Order they belonged to.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Weltall said:

The evidence that pointed us to Adolin's blade originally belonging to an Edgedancer wasn't the shape of the blade itself but the fact that the mist that it forms from when summoned is noted to resemble vines. This is what Brandon was asked when he confirmed it. The shape of the blades probably has more to do with the preferences of the original Radiant than anything specific about the Order they belonged to.

I thought it was both. The growing vines of mist, and the back edge of the blade looking like growing crystals. 

[thejopen27]

On 11/2/2017 at 10:02 PM, Walin said:

Maybe. Hopefully we’ll find out in Oathbringer or via a WOB, but I don’t think that its design is what determines the order. Actually maybe it is, we never got a WOB on that. Maybe make a discussion topic on whether Shardblade designs are related to their orders via Essence similarities.

I think we're too reliant as a fan-base on asking Brandon. I think we should take more pride in trying to figure things out on our own. How many arguements have been ended, not because another book came out and we discovered the answer, but because Brandon just told us. We shouldn't ask every question we have to Brandon, besides, people put too much stock into what he says and read too much into his silences and RAFO, and not enough into his obfuscating language. I think we're too reliant on his words, they end fun arguments, and I would bet that he is more deceptive than his honest face makes him seem. 

 

On 11/2/2017 at 10:32 PM, Calderis said:

I thought it was both. The growing vines of mist, and the back edge of the blade looking like growing crystals. 

Yes. This was my thought it's both. Shallan's blade has geometric patterns on it, while Kaladin's is sweeping and sleek has swirling, wind-like patterns. I would guess that Lifts blade is sinuous has vines or crystals while we know Jasnah's is sleek and black. I wonder what order Oathbringer was? The king has a giant flame based sword, that seems to also be a dustbringer sword. 

 

Are Oathbringer spoilers supposed to be in the Coppermind? I was looking up Oathbringer (the sword) and it seemed like there was a spoiler in there. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by thejopen27

[thegatorgirl00]

14 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Are Oathbringer spoilers supposed to be in the Coppermind? I was looking up Oathbringer (the sword) and it seemed like there was a spoiler in there. 

They are not allowed in the Coppermind. If there are spoilers, they need to be removed. 

[The One Who Connects]

On 10/30/2017 at 11:45 PM, Knghtstlker said:

I don't know if we've ever covered the issue if you can bond two shard blades at once. I for one think you could, I don't know if the bonding process has ever been discussed at great detail, whether a Dead Spren blade wielder could summon his shardblade in either hand, or if they have to hold the shard blade *As I think was stated*, as often as possible to "Train" the DeadSpren to which hand and what position to form to.

One can be bonded to multiple Shardblades. You could not summon them at the same time though.

Quote

Interview: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Question

Can one person have more than one Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A person can possess more than one Shardblade.

---

Interview: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

E. Hyde

You said that a person can have more than one Shardblade--can they be dual-wielded?

Brandon Sanderson

Someone did exactly this in the original draft of Way of Kings, back in 2002.

---

Interview: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

Cheese Ninja

If a character bears multiple Shardblades, can they summon them all in the same 10 heartbeat span, or does each Shardblade require a separate summoning? Dying doesn't count.

Brandon Sanderson

Separate summoning.

I imagine that since there is a "summoning gesture" that Adolin, Kaladin and others have pointed out, the blade would be summoned in the hand you used for the summoning gesture. Since you have to summon each blade separately, I don't think there'd be any issue with summoning the blades into separate hands.

If they can't change what hand the blade forms in, they can just as easily manually swap the first blade into their other hand and then summon the second one.

[thejopen27]

On 11/4/2017 at 2:35 PM, thegatorgirl00 said:

They are not allowed in the Coppermind. If there are spoilers, they need to be removed. 

Spoiler

[OB Spoilers Removed] 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Pagerunner
Removing OB Spoilers.

[The One Who Connects]

On 11/4/2017 at 9:58 PM, thejopen27 said:

  Hide contents

[OB spoilers removed] 

Technically, I don't believe that is from a WoB, but I don't know for sure whether the Oathbringer Chapter that relates to was read at a signing or not, so until then, I'd say that's a spoiler.

I've mentioned something relating to that spoiler as early as late April of this year, which predates every single thread in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board but one. I really don't know where we learned anything relating to that back then.

[+Extesian]

42 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Technically, I don't believe that is from a WoB, but I don't know for sure whether the Oathbringer Chapter that relates to was read at a signing or not, so until then, I'd say that's a spoiler.

I've mentioned something relating to that spoiler as early as late April of this year, which predates every single thread in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board but one. I really don't know where we learned anything relating to that back then.

The Thrill came out last year yeah? I think it's from that?

[Knghtstlker]

Thank you all for helping me mull through this topic. I'm a little more sturdy in my belief that Amaram set someone up to either A. Die, or B. Feign Death in a real bout for shards.. The shards he stole from Kaladin. Either way, I'm also convinced that Amaram is too public, and open to have done anything but stage a bout in front of a lot of witnesses to corroborate his accounts of winning his shard blade and plate fair and square from either felling a foe, or from a bout over honor. Though specifics would be nice to hear about in the *hopefully up and coming trial of Amaram.*

[The One Who Connects]

15 hours ago, Extesian said:

The Thrill came out last year yeah? I think it's from that?

Oh yea that. Never actually read that little flashback collection. There might have been some discussions about it, but last year would be before the spoiler board, so they'd be in the SA forum. Does that mean it's information that technically doesn't have to be locked inside the spoiler board, or am I subconsciously pulling loopholes?