bo.montier Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 15 minutes ago, Calderis said: I'll try to find some WoBs later for you, after my morning work meetings, but yes we're sure. The bond is a consensual thing. If either party decides to be done, they can part ways and the bond will degrade. The Spren will lose sapience and in Syl's words "go stupid" but be free to bond with someone else, and the person will lose their powers. This is the entire point of Syl's questions to Kaladin early on, and her implying that what they were doing could stop of it was what Kaladin wanted. The death of the Spren as we see in the Recreance is a direct result of broken oaths. Oh, I believe you, it wasn't clear to me in Yata's post if he was speculating. Thank you for the clarification.
TheDarkDesperado he/him Posted October 13, 2017 Posted October 13, 2017 Don't have much to add here, good theory not sure I buy it completely but I agree with a lot of it. Also high marks for the thoroughness of it.
Andy92 Posted October 14, 2017 Posted October 14, 2017 The main part I agree with in this theory is that Honor's "unite them" message could very well be about uniting the humans and Parshendi/parshmen. The idea about the enslavement of the parshmen causing the Recreance is probably more iffy. One possibility of the parshmen enslavement causing the Recreance could be based on the method Melishi used to enslave them. Maybe the "magic hack" used to enslave the parshmen could also be used to "hack" spren bonds with KR? That would potentially allow the Bondsmiths to control other KR and not just parshmen, so the other orders abandoned their spren to prevent the potential of their fate ever being the same as the parshmen. This could mean that the 10th order that didn't take part in the Recreance was actually the Bondsmiths, and the Skybreakers we see in the modern story weren't refounded until sometime later. That idea is probably a stretch, but it's the only thing I could think of that relates the enslavement of the parshmen as a legitimate cause of the Recreance.
QuantumHarmonix he/him Posted October 14, 2017 Posted October 14, 2017 There is a certain interesting comparison between the KR's breaking their bonds and the Parshmen being cut off from their forms. I could see a few possibilities if there is a connection. One possibility is that the KR abandoned their spren after learning what happened to the Parshmen. My problem with this is that some orders seem like they might have had a much more understanding view of forcibly cutting the Parshmen off. Now this could work if they were forced into the decision. The way I could see that working is if there was an honorable agreement to limit each others numbers. Then many of the KR would be forced to abandon their oaths once the Parshmen were so drastically reduced. Another possibility is that the KR intentionally abandoned their oaths to cause the Parshmen to get cut off. The only problem is that I see this being pretty hard to pitch to some orders. Although, it could be an interesting explanation for what happened to the missing shardblades. By that I mean that most of the KR spren might have been used to break the Parshmen, so those are the missing blades. You could even see the dead blades around now as an indicator of those that took dullform to avoid what was coming. The last possibility is that while the two are correlated one didn't cause the other. So the Bondsmiths do something and as a result bonded spren get killed, both from the Knights and Parshmen. The Knights then drop their screaming blades and the Parshmen are forced into slaveform. Although even with all that said, I still think it's probably most likely that there isn't a connection and the two events took place at vastly different times.
Blacksmithki Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 Two things to add to this theory. One: in the vision Dalinar had of the two orders abandoning thier shards, did they instantly summon thier blades or did it take a moment (ten heartbeats) Two: the bondsmiths being the remaining order helps explain the lack of massive Spren having died at some point, that would more then likely leave some trace somewhere. (No they wern't bonded to Honor, the radiants were the product of Spren imitating heralds, so they had to have bonded Spren for that to be the case)
Subvisual Haze Posted October 16, 2017 Author Posted October 16, 2017 On 10/12/2017 at 8:51 AM, Calderis said: I'll try to find some WoBs later for you, after my morning work meetings, but yes we're sure. The bond is a consensual thing. If either party decides to be done, they can part ways and the bond will degrade. The Spren will lose sapience and in Syl's words "go stupid" but be free to bond with someone else, and the person will lose their powers. This is the entire point of Syl's questions to Kaladin early on, and her implying that what they were doing could stop of it was what Kaladin wanted. The death of the Spren as we see in the Recreance is a direct result of broken oaths. If you could find any WOBs on this that would be great. I had a seperate theory The Recreance might have been caused by the Nahel bond having undisclosed side effects (stormlight being inherently addictive, or the heavy use of stormlight changing the KR's soul to be more "spren-like" and less individualistic over time, or the popular theory elsewhere that it might somehow damnation KRs into a torture similar to what Odium inflicts on Heralds between desolations). If there was a WOB that an advanced Nahel bond could be peacefully withdrawn from with minimal side effects that would blow up a lot of Recreance theories.
Calderis he/him Posted October 17, 2017 Posted October 17, 2017 10 hours ago, Blacksmithki said: One: in the vision Dalinar had of the two orders abandoning thier shards, did they instantly summon thier blades or did it take a moment (ten heartbeats) The blades and plate were still glowing prior to being dropped. The bond was still intact.
Subvisual Haze Posted October 17, 2017 Author Posted October 17, 2017 When I was re-reading Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep/The Day of Recreance something struck me a bit. Quote He was on the battlement of a single-walled fortress. Crafted from large blocks of deep red stone, the wall was sheet and straight. It was built across a rift in the leeward side of a tall rock formation overlooking an open plain of stone... Quote This rock formation was at the end of an enormous plain-the perfect situation for a fortress. No army could approach without being seen long before its arrival. Leeward side would be on the western side of a mountain range, as weather blows east to west on Roshar. So this fortress sat on the eastern edge of an enormous plain. Quote Eight weeks? forty days of winter at once? That was rare. The description of the Feverstone Keep sitting at the edge of a very large plain, combined with the unusually cold climate (perhaps located in or nearby the conveniently named Frostlands) strongly implies to me that Feverstone Keep was located on the (south?)-eastern edge of the present day Shattered Plains. Quote "But Why?" the darkeyed officer demanded. "Why are the Radiants coming here? They should be fighting the devils on the front lines." So it appears the Stonewards and Windrunners up until this point were frontline soldiers in a non-desolation war (technology is slowly progressing in this vision, Dalinar has a steel weapon) against "devils". It's not a stretch to assume the "devils" referred to here are The Listeners. It makes sense that the Stonewards and the Windrunners would be the most militarized of the KR orders, many others focused on healing, building, scholarship etc. If they were at the front lines of the conflict, and witnessed an "act of great eminence", it makes sense that their orders would be the first to respond to this moral outrage by quitting en masse. Again, I can't guess how all the pieces fit together, but the location seems right for The Recreance being a reaction to an immoral event occurring on the notyet-Shattered Plains leading to the mental and physical enslavement of The Listeners (barring The Lost Legion, who chose to preemptively embrace Dullform to escape the magical cataclysm).
Aleksiel Posted October 17, 2017 Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) @Subvisual Haze Listeners are one possibility, though I would have expected to have a few hints in their old songs for the purpose of foreshadowing if there was a war between them and KR. We don't know when parshendi were made into what they were prior to the everstorm and if it was willingly. I know it sounds bizarre to give up your mind, but KR, especially WR, killing their spren and leaving their corpses is also bizarre. May be the intention was to remove the danger of bonding voidspren and the loss of self was unexpected side effect. We don't know how the Listeners managed to escape everybody, may be they are descendants of those who rejected the plan and hid. But I digress... Another possibility are aimians - we know Aimia was scoured and during that the majority of larkins went extinct - those little flying cremling creatures that can suck stormlight out of surgebinders from what we've seen. Aimians are interested in KR and appear to be aware of the sham the Heralds pulled or at least aren't surprised by the Desolation, so it could be related. Aimians could have convinced the KR of something similar to how Nale thought using surges will return Desolation. Edited October 17, 2017 by Aleksiel 1
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