[OB] Dalinar's wife(s)

[Rasha]

Hello,

 

This is a theory on Dalinar's lapses of memory concerning Evi, and the implications that it might have in the future. My theory bases itself on the premise that Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher made him lose all memories concerning his wife, Evi, and made him unable to hear her name again. I would suppose (and this is a supposition, in no way based on facts) that the Nightwatcher operated by severing his connexion to his wife, separating all memory, feelings and stimulus about Evi, and placed it in a Box inside Dalinar's mind that he is unable to access.

 

Now, Dalinar has married Navani, his oaths of marriage witnessed and approved by the Stormfather. Navani has replaced Evi as his wife, and I think that what is happening is that the Box in Dalinar's mind is being filled by Navani, while Evi leaks out of the Box. I think that slowly, Dalinar will mix feelings and memory between Navani and Evi, slowly confounding the two, and Navani will bleed away into the Box until Dalinar forgets everything about her, and is unable to have any stimulus of Navani. In the end, he will remain married to someone he cannot remember and has trouble to have even basic interactions with. I think it would be truly tragic for both characters, as as the Stormfather noted, his Oaths are binding forever, and breaking them has huge consequences. When he stated that, some sharders theorized that Navani would be the one to break them, due to maybe hidden motives or agenda. But I will find it more fitting story wise if Dalinar ends up being the one screwing up his marriage performed by the Stormfather just because of a visit to the Nightwatcher a long time ago.

 

It is strongly implied that the switch is happening now because of the change of wives, and not because Dalinar is being healed by Stormlight. Dalinar inhaled Stormlight to heal himself before in WoR, and it didn't have this effect. Furthermore, the problem with Stormlight healing is that it is based on Perception. I doubt Dalinar could have restored his memories via Stormlight healing precisely because the Cognitive image he has of himself (on which Stormlight bases itself to heal) does not include the memories of his wife. Juste like Kalladin kept his slavery brands, because he percieve himself as soemone with the brands. Dalinar percieves himself with someone with a memory lapse when it comes to his wife, which make it very hard (imposssible ?) to just regain memories with Stormlight.

He wasn't in contact with the Everstorm, and therefore didn't benefit from the same effects than the Parshmen did (a healing of the soul to make it whole). Plus, it would make for an awesome, (even if it is tragic) story.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Rasha
Edited to adress the Stormlight Healing rebutal.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Rasha said:

Hello,

 

This is a theory on Dalinar's lapses of memory concerning Evi, and the implications that it might have in the future. My theory bases itself on the premise that Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher made him lose all memories concerning his wife, Evi, and made him unable to hear her name again. I would suppose (and this is a supposition, in no way based on facts) that the Nightwatcher operated by severing his connexion to his wife, separating all memory, feelings and stimulus about Evi, and placed it in a Box inside Dalinar's mind that he is unable to access.

 

Now, Dalinar has married Navani, his oaths of marriage witnessed and approved by the Stormfather. Navani has replaced Evi as his wife, and I think that what is happening is that the Box in Dalinar's mind is being filled by Navani, while Evi leaks out of the Box. I think that slowly, Dalinar will mix feelings and memory between Navani and Evi, slowly confounding the two, and Navani will bleed away into the Box until Dalinar forgets everything about her, and is unable to have any stimulus of Navani. In the end, he will remain married to someone he cannot remember and has trouble to have even basic interactions with. I think it would be truly tragic for both characters, as as the Stormfather noted, his Oaths are binding forever, and breaking them has huge consequences. When he stated that, some sharders theorized that Navani would be the one to break them, due to maybe hidden motives or agenda. But I will find it more fitting story wise if Dalinar ends up being the one screwing up his marriage performed by the Stormfather just because of a visit to the Nightwatcher a long time ago.

 

It is strongly implied that the switch is happening now because of the change of wives, and not because Dalinar is being healed by Stormlight. Dalinar inhaled Stormlight to heal himself before in WoR, and it didn't have this effect. He wasn't in contact with the Everstorm, and therefore didn't benefit from the same effects than the Parshmen did (a healing of the soul to make it whole). Plus, it would make for an awesome, (even if it is tragic) story.

That... would be absolutely awful. Until we see something like that, I refuse to believe it. 

[Aleksiel]

It's a possibility, however I'm not convinced Dalinar has previously inhaled enough stormlight to heal his memory - Lopen didn't grow his arm from one sphere, but a little. Kaladin used plenty of light to heal his shardblade cut hand and Lift was exhausted by how much it took to revive Gawx. The simplest explanation is the larger amount of stormlight used in the scene.

[She Who Cannot Be Named she/her]

It really makes for a compelling, yet very tragic, idea. If it is the case, then there will very likely be (more or less subtle) clues throughout the book. But at the moment we simply do not have enough information/chapters on that.

[Rasha]

4 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

It's a possibility, however I'm not convinced Dalinar has previously inhaled enough stormlight to heal his memory - Lopen didn't grow his arm from one sphere, but a little. Kaladin used plenty of light to heal his shardblade cut hand and Lift was exhausted by how much it took to revive Gawx. The simplest explanation is the larger amount of stormlight used in the scene.

 

The problem with Stormlight healing is that it is based on Perception. I doubt Dalinar could have restored his memories via Stormlight healing precisely because the Cognitive image he has of himself (on which Stormlight bases itself to heal) does not include the memories of his wife. Juste like Kalladin kept his slavery brands, because he percieve himself as soemone with the brands. Dalinar percieves himself with someone with a memory lapse when it comes to his wife, which make it very hard (imposssible ?) to just regain memories with Stormlight.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Rasha

[Salkara]

I agree in part but disagree on the whole. I believe the Nightwatcher ripped out Dalinar's Connection to his wife, thereby removing his memories of her. It makes sense to me that the more significant the Connection, the more healing required to refound it. If we assume that Dalinar's Connection to his wife was one of his most significant Connections, we can also assume that it would take quite a lot of Stormlight to heal it.

I think as the story progresses, we'll see Dalinar be a little more wary of using Stormlight as it will allow him to dredge up more and more memories that he'd like to keep repressed.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I think that there might be a whole lot of truth to this. We hardly know anything about the Old Magic (yet), but I have a hard time seeing anything other than marrying Navani as the reason for him suddenly remembering Evi. The problem I have with the Stormlight idea is that it isn't compelling. It feels a bit like a cheap fake-out. Dalinar can now use Stormlight, and so all his problems are solved, including his curse from the Old Magic. 

Also, does it even make sense that Stormlight can "heal" a curse/boon? A curse/boon seems to be a permanent effect caused by magic that might come from Cultivation. Would that be seen as a disease/wound/some kind of damage? And in that case, is Stormlight powerful enough to negate it?

[Steeldancer he/him]

7 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think that there might be a whole lot of truth to this. We hardly know anything about the Old Magic (yet), but I have a hard time seeing anything other than marrying Navani as the reason for him suddenly remembering Evi. The problem I have with the Stormlight idea is that it isn't compelling. It feels a bit like a cheap fake-out. Dalinar can now use Stormlight, and so all his problems are solved, including his curse from the Old Magic. 

Also, does it even make sense that Stormlight can "heal" a curse/boon? A curse/boon seems to be a permanent effect caused by magic that might come from Cultivation. Would that be seen as a disease/wound/some kind of damage? And in that case, is Stormlight powerful enough to negate it?

We have no idea. Has there been any evidence of anyone getting a curse and boon while being a radiant?

Nm we have lift ignore me

Edited October 3, 2017 by Steeldancer

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, Rasha said:

 

The problem with Stormlight healing is that it is based on Perception. I doubt Dalinar could have restored his memories via Stormlight healing precisely because the Cognitive image he has of himself (on which Stormlight bases itself to heal) does not include the memories of his wife. Juste like Kalladin kept his slavery brands, because he percieve himself as soemone with the brands. Dalinar percieves himself with someone with a memory lapse when it comes to his wife, which make it very hard (imposssible ?) to just regain memories with Stormlight.

Mmm, Szeth couldn't heal himself from shardblade wound the way Kal did it, so it's not entirely Cognitive, it has Spiritual element and requires a certain level of bonding to investiture (for the lack of a better phrase to express myself, I hope it's understandable). Even if I'm wrong or not explaining it well, the perception argument is a tricky y one - Ym didn't heal vision, but Renarin did, so Dalinar might not perceive himself with eternally crippled memory. But I doubt it's about perception, otherwise Lift probably would have cured herself out of the ability to digest stormlight.

Bondsmiths seem to have been able to manipulate the spiritual web of the parshendi and Ishar might have had the power to do that to the surgebinders at large based on a possible interpretation of these two epigraphs:

Quote

"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address."

Quote

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

So this could be some BS Spiritual perk.

[Rasha]

8 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Mmm, Szeth couldn't heal himself from shardblade wound the way Kal did it, so it's not entirely Cognitive, it has Spiritual element and requires a certain level of bonding to investiture (for the lack of a better phrase to express myself, I hope it's understandable). Even if I'm wrong or not explaining it well, the perception argument is a tricky y one - Ym didn't heal vision, but Renarin did, so Dalinar might not perceive himself with eternally crippled memory. But I doubt it's about perception, otherwise Lift probably would have cured herself out of the ability to digest stormlight.

 

We know that Stormlight healing works the same way than Feruchemical gold healing on Scadrial. When ingesting Stormlight, it tries to align your Physical form to your Cognitive(or Spiritual ? I can't remember) form, which depends on the way the person getting healed percieve himself. Lift doesn't cure herself because she welcomes the fact that she can transform food into awesomeness, and sees it as a part of herself. Just like Dalinar seems to have accepted that he has no memory of Evi. He is even shocked that he can hear her name. Which is not consistent with the few eavy (ie just not healing minor bruises) Stormlight healings that occured so far. Kalladin had to push the Stormlight into his arm so it could heal, it was not a passive effect the first time it happened.

 

As to the Bondsmiths intervention to modify Parshendis, I am sorry to say that I fail to see what is the relevance to the discussion.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Rasha

[Aleksiel]

3 minutes ago, Rasha said:

 

We know that Stormlight healing works the same way than Feruchemical gold healing on Scadrial. When ingesting Stormlight, it tries to align your Physical form to your Cognitive(or Spiritual ? I can't remember) form, which depends on the way the person getting healed percieve himself. Lift doesn't cure herself because she welcomes the fact that she can transform food into awesomeness, and sees it as a part of herself. Just like Dalinar seems to have accepted that he has no memory of Evi. He is even shocked that he can hear her name. Which is not consistent with the few eavy (ie just not healing minor bruises) Stormlight healings that occured so far. Kalladin had to push the Stormlight into his arm so it could heal, it was not a passive effect the first time it happened.

 

As to the Bondsmiths intervention to modify Parshendis, I am sorry to say that I fail to see what is the relevance to the discussion.

Because if the BS have a way to change things in the SR and the Nightwatcher works in the SR, then it is fitting that a BS could undo a curse/boon.

[dionysus]

A dark and plausible theory. I for one hope this does not come to pass. Brandon has done enough torturing of his protagonists already! I hope it is simply that he still had some stormlight in him when Navani said her name and thus he temporarily or permanently healed his Connection to his old wife.

[TheBrian]

This theory is equally brilliant and depressing.  I will be watching Dalinar's interactions with Navani closely from now one.

[Aleksiel]

How do you explain Dalinar remembering both wives simultaneously? He recovered memory of Evi suddenly, shouldn't he forget Navani at once?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Can we please not call Bondsmiths BS. Some people around here call Brandon BS, and so you guys make my head spin when you use it on the Bondsmiths...

[Rasha]

19 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

How do you explain Dalinar remembering both wives simultaneously? He recovered memory of Evi suddenly, shouldn't he forget Navani at once?

 

As I said in the original post, it is not an instantaenous process. Dalinar now recalls her name, and recalls her face. My theory is that he will gradually remember more of Evi, while gradually forgotting Navani in the reverse order. So let's say that he now has forgotten some old memories of Navani, he wouldn't know right on the spot that he is missing these memories. But as time progress, he may wonder how it's hard to remember the Navani of when he was young. Or maybe if it doesn't happens in reverse chronological order (why should it ?), he may lose at first some minor memories of Navani (like if she'd rather have a red or yellow dress). And as time passes, he will gain more memory of Evi and less of Navani, until he has completely forgotten her face, her voice and her name.

 

Edit: Memory is a tricky thing, as we are mostly ignorant of how it works. But in this case, I see it as a case of Alzeihmer on a very focused subject (his wife). Alzeihmer is not an instantaneous process. Of course, Alzeihmer here is just an analogy as I wouldn't have the knowledge to diagnose any disease if it could save my life, and it may very well prove that it is a very different case.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Rasha

[The Invested Beard]

My question is how exactly would this work with a living person that he is so close to? Would their words all sound like wind? Would their face or entire presence become a blur in his vision? This could get really weird.

[shadowwisp]

18 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

How do you explain Dalinar remembering both wives simultaneously? He recovered memory of Evi suddenly, shouldn't he forget Navani at once?

It could just be a gradual process. Nothing says that it has to happen all at once. Plus I don't think he got all of his memory of Evi back yet, just her name and face.

Which would support that whatever is going on, it isn't happening all at once. 

[Wreith he/him]

21 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Can we please not call Bondsmiths BS. Some people around here call Brandon BS, and so you guys make my head spin when you use it on the Bondsmiths...

I was thinking this same thing. And then there was this:

47 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

So this could be some BS Spiritual perk.

And I first thought Aleksiel was being overly critical of the plot device of spiritual perks

 

 

10 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

My question is how exactly would this work with a living person that he is so close to? Would their words all sound like wind? Would their face or entire presence become a blur in his vision? This could get really weird.

I don't think he would miss what she said in the moment necessarily, but would immediately after have difficulty remembering where he heard some information.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Wreith
typo

[Pagerunner he/him]

I really hope this theory isn't true, but I do have to admit that it's well-construed and probably makes the most sense out of the options I've heard so far. Stormlight healing, painrial, Everstorm restoration, all of them have their issues, but there's nothing outstanding that needs to be overcome for the curse transfer, since we don't know exactly what Dalinar asked for.

My concern is more from a narrative point of view. Stormlight books are big and getting bigger, and these sorts of plots are exactly the sort of thing that can drag down long book series. Like Perrin and the Shaido in Wheel of Time - it was a very natural outgrowth of the world, it provided some tremendous character growth for one of the main characters, but when the whole plotline was resolved, it didn't further the overarching narrative at all, it was merely an obstacle that a character had to overcome. Dalinar is trying to unite the world; having to deal with supernatural interference with his marriage would be tragic and interesting, but it's still page count, and this book ran so long it has pushed back some of Brandon's other projects, like Rithmatist 2 and Alcatraz 6.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to judge a story that might happen before I've even read any of it. Brandon may very be able to make it an integral part of Dalinar's path, like maybe one of the Bondsmith oaths involves giving up your personal life to be married to your Radiancy. But my eyebrow indeed has been raised.

But as to the mechanics, I don't think the time delay is a problem. We don't know the timetable of how Dalinar lost his memories of Evi in the first place, do we? It very well might have been a gradual thing, and now the process has begun again and he will gradually begin to lose memories of Navani. It was a moment between hearing her name and seeing her face, so an ongoing thing makes sense.

[Frostlander]

Perhaps now that he's bonded with Stormfather, it's impossible for him to forget oaths he's made and the people he's made them to. This is a somewhat simpler theory, though it could also involve some of the Spiritual powers Bondsmiths seem to have. I hope for the story's sake, that Evi (and therefore Dalinar's past oath) isn't still alive...

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Rasha said:

I doubt Dalinar could have restored his memories via Stormlight healing precisely because the Cognitive image he has of himself (on which Stormlight bases itself to heal) does not include the memories of his wife.

Personally, I don't think you can heal your cognitive aspect anyways. You can heal physical and spiritual damage, but is there anything in the Cosmere that inflicts cognitive damage? Memories are a "connection" to a past event in a sense, so I'd technically classify them as a spiritual thing. i also wouldn't consider a memory fading as "damage" so much as a weakening connection.

Brandon might consider these things a bit differently, so take it with a grain of salt

51 minutes ago, Rasha said:

When ingesting Stormlight, it tries to align your Physical form to your Cognitive(or Spiritual ? I can't remember) form, which depends on the way the person getting healed perceive himself.

In the Spiritual Realm, there is a . . . Template, a Spiritual Ideal of Healing, of what a "Human" should be. Healing in the Cosmere tries to align your Physical Aspect to match that SR Template. That healing gets filtered through your Cognitive Aspect, preventing it from healing the differences that you see as part of yourself. (if it didn't, any and all healed humans would be a cookie cutter copy of that template)

[Rasha]

Ah you said what I had confusely in mind with far more precision. Thank you !

[Runyan Firetree]

One thing I haven't seen considered yet is that perhaps Dalinar's request to the Nighwatcher had conditional statements or certain nuances that are now met.  For example, King T asked for "... capacity. The capacity to stop what is coming. The capacity to save humankind."  If humankind was saved, would King T's boon/curse go away? 

[DiamondMind he/him]

Like others, I hate this theory not because it doesn't make sense -- it's thematically appropriate and is interesting -- but because it's so horrifying. On a gut level I don't just want it to happen. Props for laying it out though. As one possible opposing piece of evidence, the chapter ends with "he suddenly remembered her face." This seems somewhat instantaneous -- the moment before he could not remember and now he could. That doesn't seem to fit a gradual leakage of of memories.

Also, I believe the Stormlight really could be healing him. First, Dalinar is apparently holding enough Stormlight for it to visible to everyone in the the room, which might be the first time this has happened. Especially the first time he has done so when his wife's name was mentioned. Maybe that's relevant for some reason? Second, in the two previous books, it does not seem he accepted the loss of his wife memories. Or rather, he's resigned to it but still perceives it as a loss. He accepted he no longer has them but still sees himself as though he should have those memories. Kind of like Lopen's arm -- he refers to himself as a one-armed Herdazian, refers to his missing arm as one he doesn't have, but fundamentally he still believes that he should have that arm.

So I hope the Stormlight healing him is true. It does make sense and it's a lot more heartwarming.